The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

English Amateur

+11
JAS
kwinigolfer
Maverick
JPX
NedB-H
Diggers
super_realist
oldparwin
Doon the Water
Davie
SmithersJones
15 posters

Go down

English Amateur Empty English Amateur

Post by SmithersJones Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:51 pm

Don't know how our friend JPX is getting on but it seems the scoring at Woburn today hasn't been exactly stellar. Poulter is getting himself into familiar, hot water on Twitter with his assessment of the fact that of the 174 scores so far recorded only 11 are under par and 46 are 80 or over. Apparently the 34 scratch players were the highest, the remaining 254 are all + handicaps.
SmithersJones
SmithersJones

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Davie Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:11 pm

Poulter once again doing himself no favours. He may actually have a good point to make but he'll make a lot more enemies than friends over this

Davie

Posts : 7821
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 64
Location : Berkshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Doon the Water Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:50 pm

SJ
May I remind the Honourable Member to another post re present day scratch golfers compared to the 1960 variety.

Doon the Water

Posts : 2482
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 76
Location : South West Scotland

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by oldparwin Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:45 pm

And can I 2nd Doon the Water comments

oldparwin

Posts : 777
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 76
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:00 pm

Davie wrote:Poulter once again doing himself no favours. He may actually have a good point to make but he'll make a lot more enemies than friends over this

What do you expect him to say?

"Well done boys, you really are doing Scratch players a good name." ?
They probably need a few home truths and a boot up the backside. No harm in that. At least he's taking an interest, how many other pro's even know it's going on?

I'm actually beginning to agree that Scratch players of old might be better, although i've no evidence to back it up but any Scratch player shooting in the 80's ought to be ashamed unless the weather was wretched. 34 seems to many to be coincidence.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Diggers Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:49 pm

Id be surprised if Poulter broke par if he was playing with his current form.

Diggers

Posts : 8681
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by NedB-H Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:39 pm

Strange thing is that on the other hand we hear people say the amateur game is stronger than ever. That certainly seems true in the States, two amateur winners on the Nationwide Tour already, yesterday's having another amateur as runner-up for good measure, plus the form of Cantlay and Uihlein this year. Either GB&I has very little strength in depth in the amateur game at the moment, or the Walker Cup is gonna be an absolute massacre.

Or is the English Amateur just not attracting the calibre of players it once did? I could only even pretend to recognise about ten names in the scores, and most of them are under par, or a couple over at worst. No Lewis, for a start, in fact I think very few of the potential squad are there.

NedB-H

Posts : 2147
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Kent / Ceredigion

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:51 pm

Don't forget that The Walker Cup isn't just made up of English Amateurs.
It's also the Scottish Amateur this week, where world amateur number 12 Michael Stewart is defending, while players like James Byrne (+6 HCP) have to be pretty stong contenders for a place in the team, plus I'm sure there will be a few leek munchers and tatty munchers in the team, none of which are permitted to play in the English Amateur.

The Walker CUp is normally a massacre anyway. They've five times the population, of course they are going to be stronger.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JPX Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:53 am

Quick update for you

Disappointing 75 on the Marquess, had 3 birdies and an eagle but 2 doubles cost me. Greens are playing hard and fast. Conditions are good today so I reckon I need 70ish today on the Dutchess to make the matchplay. . . . will update after rnd 2, off to the range to sort my driver out.

JPX

Posts : 1110
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Twatshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:11 am

Keep it going JPX.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Maverick Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:30 am

Something I feel qualified to comment on the state of scratch golf being as I play off scratch. As most know I'm currently mid lay off due to surgery on my ACL. However I still spend my weekends at the club, helping out with the juniors at the moment trying to put something back so still see what scores are being posted

There are 3 other players at our club that are scratch handicaps and one +2 handicap. Various 1,2 & 3 handicaps and a fair other number of Cat 1, 4 & 5's. I would say even compared to 10 years ago the average score of many scratch golfers is not as good nor is their standard of play.

When not injured i practice 4 times a week as well as playing on weekends, and would like to be thought of as a genuine scratch player and have the scores to back this up, only had 5 rounds in 12 months that were over par and the worst was a +4 at RCP in some very strong winds. Yet many guys I have played with in scratch events have been high 70's which is not an issue if not a regular thing and a lot more of early 80's. When I talk to these guys what seems apparent is many don't play that much or spend much time practising. What seems to happen a fair amount in this country is that people get cut to a cat 1 handicap or scratch whether that be for ego pursposes or just genuine good play, but cannot sustain that level with the time they give to the game so do not actually play to scratch. Yes their best scores on a good day could be on or around par but in my mind to be a scratch or better player you must produce those scores day in day out.

Everyone's capable of a horrer round no matter what there level but there do seem to be far too many of these from the lower guys in recent times IMO. The reason I think the US game is better from a handicap perspective is that the USGA system works far better on how your current form is than the CONGU system whereby under Congu you can get cut but going back up 0.1 each time does not reflect accurately.

So what I think we have ended up with is a mixed bag of genuine Scratch players and what i would call club scratch players, the genuine ones are the guys who regularly play scratch events at away clubs and post good numbers more often than not at away courses. The Club scratch guys are the ones that know how to get it round their own courses regularly at or around par but if you put them on an away course would struggle to get near par. There's nothing wrong with either type as long as they enjoy their games.

One interesting point though is the PGA scoring average leader if you took his 16 qualifying rounds as valid the scoring leader so far this year would be Cantlay... Unfortunately as an AM he cannot be included


Last edited by Maverick on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Dodgy spelling)

Maverick

Posts : 2680
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 44
Location : Kent

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Maverick Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:31 am

One further thing, Nice going JPX keep up the good work

Maverick

Posts : 2680
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 44
Location : Kent

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:35 am

The problem with the American system, though fine in theory is that it's open to widespread abuse while some of the rules about how you can hand a card in would be laughed out of town here.
I've played with many due to my location and an American scratch player is on a par with a 3-4 here.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by SmithersJones Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:55 am

Good luck today, JPX.
SmithersJones
SmithersJones

Posts : 2094
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Maverick Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:55 am

Thats the issue though SR the american system is great for those honest enough to use it correctly. But then that could also be seen as a flaw in CONGU, if someone is dishonest to Doctor a hanidcap to get it down to where they want it going back up takes forever so they still get what they want. There will never be a complete solution to this type of problem as dishonest people will always find a way around it.

But back to the main point of is it as good a level as it was I would say NO. A friend of my brothers who used to play for England schoolboys and wouldv'e been in the Walker cup back in the 90's had he not found out what recreational durgs were much to his detriment and loss of a career as a Pro. Back then he was of +5, beat everyone that got in his way, hit the ball long and straight and there was nothing he couldn't do with a golf ball. He was 16years old, and was well on his way to becoming a pro and was getting better everyday by the time he was 18 he was in the final selection stages of the 1995 Walker team, and was a shoein for a place having now got down to +6. days before final open qualiying he was found taking cocaine that he got through a member of his family and was removed from the final selction for Walker cup team and had his place at final qualifying taken away from him. He never played for the england or county side again. Was shunned at his local club for ruining what would've been a good career. He disapeared to all intents and purposes and gave up the game. Until last week, he turned up to play in a charity event run by a mutual friend of his families and mine, he had a borrowed set of old Mizuno blades, borrowed a driver and a putter off my dad, he went out and shot 67 gross off the back tees in what was his first game of golf in 14years. He is now trying to become a member of our club and has even shown proof of his record that he no longer takes recreational drugs and that he has a reputable business etc as that gave him the bug to start again. If only i could have that sort of natural talent to walk back onto a course after so long out of the game and do that with clubs you've never used before is phenominal

Maverick

Posts : 2680
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 44
Location : Kent

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:07 pm

Great story Mav, sadly the game is full of wasted talent like that. Alcohol is another big problem amongst good players being that the game revolves around a clubhouse.
The 90's is not so long ago, and there are plenty players around the +6 mark now. It's hard to call where the dividing line is between eras but I think a scratch golfer from today is certainly as good as one from the 90's.

I think though that the incidences of cheating is more widespread nowadays though leading to a greater number of players with false handicaps. I saw two such instances last week from an adjacent hole , and was even drawn with one of the perpetrators at the weekend in another medal. He'd only just joined the club as a "one" handicap player, but there was no way on earth he could play to it without his "magic pencil". His short game, long game and irons were atrocious for a player of his supposed standard, and his putting was something I'd expect to see from an 18 handicapper. It wasn't that he was having a bad day, his technique was just rotten and couldn't hold up to the scoring requirement of a one handicap.
I reckon he'll be found out eventually and I'd expect to see his handicap level out at about 5, but as you say the trouble is that could take ages, especially if he's able to play midweek sweeps with co conspirators and magic pencils to hand.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Maverick Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:20 pm

It certainly is a great story and in all honesty one I may not have believed had I not been there and not known the history of it personally, but your right the problem with young golf is the clubhouse. Many of the guys I grew up with could have made it as club pro's at least or a few gone on further to mini tours, but foudn the bar area to be too tempting. Of the guys I grew up with 6 went on to qualify through the PGA as club pro's of those the most talented now work as teachers because they drank to much when they should have been practising and the other guy who was by far the least talented dedicated himself to practice hard and earns adecent living playing on the asian tour now.

But the magic pencil is rife within the game, since i've been out injured i've enjoyed helping give lessons to the youngsters, I let the pro get on with the technical stuff, but help with rules, course management etc. My own Mavette has achieved her goals with some serious hard work, but it amazes me how many of these kids use a magic pencil because they see there dads do it, or knock the odd shot off as no-one saw. Fortunately something our JO is nipping in the bud. But like you SR have been present with many magic markers on course myself and not surpirsingly in a drawn comp theses guys anlways have an excuse for their bad score/NR but when its playing comps with their oppos' some real low numbers appear!

Maverick

Posts : 2680
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 44
Location : Kent

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:15 pm

Going back to the original thoughts about relative state of Amateur game in England/GB&I and the U.S., it would still be interesting to compare the age of top amateurs on each side of the Atlantic.

And: Despite the occasional success of amateurs in Pro tournaments, they remain the exception that doesn't prove the rule.

Very few (perhaps none) US College players (average age about 21) maintain a scoring average below par. I just pulled up the site of Augusta State (alum include Oliver Wilson, Richard Johnson, Vaughn Taylor etc), 2010, 2011 NCAA Champions, to have a gaze at some of their results.

Most of you are familiar with the reputation of Alister MacKenzie's Pasatiempo Golf Club in California; at a recent (April) competition there in which ASU participated, only four 3-round scores were under the cum par of 210 (1 x 207, 3 x 209's).
Names you may recognize:
Phillip Francis: shot 213, +3.
Cantlay: 214.
Scott Pinckney: 215 (He made the Sweden cut last week and plays at Killarney this week).
James Byrne: 220.

This means nothing of course, lies, damn lies and statistics, but perhaps Poulter would find those scores disappointing.
Given the resources available to US Collegiate golfers, and one's suspicion that US Amateurs might be a year or so older on average than their British counterparts, I would think relative standards are not as dissimilar as one might think. Poulter doesn't say anything about course set-up, sounds like JPX found it pretty firm and fast.

Lastly, I've never played golf with GB tourists in the States who play to anything like what they say their handicap is; would really think the end results of the respective handicap systems are not as far apart as one might suppose.

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26476
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JAS Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:04 pm

Looks like the 2 brothers from my 2nd club (Wrag barn) are having a good tournament.

Well done and keep going JPX!!

JAS

Posts : 5247
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 61
Location : Swindon

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JAS Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:13 pm

Kwini I can confirm that I certainly never played to my handicap at Pasatiempo. I dont suppose many do at the first time of asking even among the elite amateur ranks. I suspect those that do will have tour pro like putting stats!!

I did however play to it at Spyglass and beat it twice at Kapalua. Infact I've beaten it on most of the US courses I've played. PB and Torrey Pines south being the main exceptions.

JAS

Posts : 5247
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 61
Location : Swindon

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by kwinigolfer Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:28 pm

JAS,
I just thought using a course that most had heard of might provide a devil's advocating benchmark!

I got very close, both times in steady rain, to my (high) handicap at PB, largely because it's not ridiculously long or penal compared to many pro tracks. Kapalua Plantation Course was too long for me when I played it, plus was a very occasional player then! Harbour Town just right!

US obviously have much more strength in depth due to numbers but suspect a closer comparison of apples and apples would suggest GB&I amateur golf is still pretty good.

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26476
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Doon the Water Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:21 pm

Hard and bumpy on the Duchess will be a tough shift.
Keep it doon the middle JPX and expect the scoring to be high.

Doon the Water

Posts : 2482
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 76
Location : South West Scotland

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by oldparwin Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:36 pm

Mav
Just read your post, my best wishes goes to anyone who can kick drugs, I do hope he gets his wishes and stays clean

oldparwin

Posts : 777
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 76
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JPX Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:31 pm

77 for a +8 total to miss the top 64 by 4. Gutted. Stood on 8th tee -2 for the day, +1 overall, playing nicely and well inside the cut. Massive block off the tee led to a double and dropped 5 more shots from there.

JPX

Posts : 1110
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Twatshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by NedB-H Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:03 am

JPX wrote:77 for a +8 total to miss the top 64 by 4. Gutted. Stood on 8th tee -2 for the day, +1 overall, playing nicely and well inside the cut. Massive block off the tee led to a double and dropped 5 more shots from there.
Sounds like you gave it a good run JPX, bad luck!

Just noticed that the low round of the week on the Marquess was a 66 today by Levi Johnson... I was at school with him Shocked

NedB-H

Posts : 2147
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Kent / Ceredigion

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:52 am

I hate to agree, but maybe Poulter is right.

There are some seriously poor scores there, alot of players should be embarassed, JPX - you did well, I have played those courses and they aint easy when they trick them up, so especially with your few disaster holes (I know exactly how u feel) Well Done!

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by sharrison01 Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:08 am

One thing that is incredible when looking down the scores is that a lot of these players are just a small step away from being tour standard and I wonder how their games have to change to take that step. Woburn is not the easiest of places to go but the scores at this event in comparison to a European Tour event were it to be held there would show a big difference between top top amateurs and tour players.

Anyone have any thoughts on where the small changes can make a big difference?

sharrison01

Posts : 949
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 42
Location : London

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:18 am

Clearly alot of it must be mental - most of these guys will be knocking in scores in the mid 60' every week at their home club, and probably don't react too well to the odd spot of bad luck.

Seriously I saw that many scores accumilated to more than +20, that is terrible!

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by drive4show Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:42 am

I have to say, I find it staggering that some of the top amateurs are playing off +3, +4 and even +5 yet they seem incapable of breaking par. Even some of the 'hackers' off scratch shooting scores in the 80's is ridiculous. I play a lot of county OOM events and it is pretty rare for players to be under par for 36 holes. I don't understand how these guys get to these handicaps

🤦

drive4show

Posts : 1926
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 64

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by sharrison01 Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:48 am

I'm guessing that of this field, only one or two players have what it takes to take a shot at being a tour pro. There will be a few that find their way onto the minor tours and the majority will go back to their clubs and keep shooting relatively good scores. Shows how tough it is near the top and how good you have to be to play on tour I suppose.

I wonder how the tour pro's were performing at amateur level? We of course hear about the Tigers and Sergios of the world ripping up the amateur game and Westwood had a good amateur career but what about your bog standard tour pro that never loses his card and throws in a win or two every couple of years? Those "super fans" of the game might have something valuable to add on this...

sharrison01

Posts : 949
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 42
Location : London

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:00 pm

When you play in these events the SSS tends to be a few over par so if you shoot a decent score you come down alot, where as two 88's get you just 0.2 back!

As for tour pro's I found it strange (although I agreed with him) that Poulter commented on the scores in an event he was never good enough to play in!

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JPX Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:13 pm

Re low handicaps - it's all about the CSS. There are a lot of players at or around scratch that can't regularly shoot 60 something unless they are playing their home course. They shoot around par in county / national events and a high CSS gets them a reduction. Some guys will even "target" certain events that they know will have a high CSS. You can normally tell who they are.

Take for instance a player off scratch that shot a high first round and got +0.1 back. Then he shot 71 against a CSS of 75 means overall he has got a reduction of -0.3 and he finsihed towards the bottom of the leaderboard. Then there is a guy of +1 I know for a fact hasn't played a single home course event for years as it has a low CSS. He shot 87 / 85.

Then there are of course the elite amateurs, your Tyrell Hattons, Stiggy Hodgsons, Tom Lewis etc of this world who are +4 and +5. These are the guys who have a chance on tour and are capable of shooting 63's. It's probably less than 1% of guys who are scratch or better that have a chance on tour.

I'm realistic, I'm +1 but I know I'm not good enough yet. I played average this week but you only need one part of your game to be slightly off and it will show, for me it was off the tee.

JPX

Posts : 1110
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Twatshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:13 pm

JD, Poulter was certainly good enough, he just had an artificially high handicap because he wasn't able to play enough competitions to get his handicap down die to his well documented problems with his employer.
You don't turn pro off a handicap as high as four and win your first tournament 3 years later if you are not considerably better than this handicap suggests.

Glad he's showing an interest, and perhaps his comments might nudge a few of these amateurs to work harder as many I've met can be quite smug and conceited thinking that they've already made it.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by drive4show Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:16 pm

JD

Yes, the SSS generally (nearly always!) does go up in these events but that of course is based on the scores being returned. Guys at this level should be shooting good enough scores for the SSS not to go up, if anything it should be coming down when the field is virtually all + handicaps.

drive4show

Posts : 1926
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 64

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Doon the Water Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:47 pm

The difference between the top amateur and pro is mainly a loss of confidence by amateurs when they are paired with guys that they have never heard of and then realise that they are much better players than they are.

Doon the Water

Posts : 2482
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 76
Location : South West Scotland

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:42 pm

It has nothing to do with the scores, it is because it is a none handicap event ie off scratch.

AS JPX says, take most of these lads away from their home course then they will struggle to break par, but knowing that the SSS will be at least +2 helps

SR - he was off 4, so he wouldnt have gotten in, that was my point!

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by drive4show Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:57 pm

JDandfries wrote:It has nothing to do with the scores, it is because it is a none handicap event ie off scratch.


JD

Don't understand your point, are you saying these are non qualifying events? Scratch events still count for handicapping purposes.

drive4show

Posts : 1926
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 64

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:03 pm

I was slightly wrong, but as it is a scratch event, the course SSS is not used, it is in relation to the top % of scores to par.


JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by drive4show Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:09 pm

JDandfries wrote:I was slightly wrong, but as it is a scratch event, the course SSS is not used, it is in relation to the top % of scores to par.


A CSS is still calculated for these events in the normal way and handicap changes applied. I believe the SSS is used as the starting point for calculating the CSS but not 100% sure of the correlation between the two.

drive4show

Posts : 1926
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 64

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:13 pm

But a CSS is calculated off Scratch, not of the handicaps, hence it is usually higher!

But I am also unsure on the correlation

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Doon the Water Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:36 pm

Mind you they are not really amateur golfers are they, wannabe pros would be a better term.

The English Wannabe Professionals Championship.
That has a real ring to it, and a bit more honest a title..

Doon the Water

Posts : 2482
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 76
Location : South West Scotland

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Maverick Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:49 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Mind you they are not really amateur golfers are they, wannabe pros would be a better term.

The English Wannabe Professionals Championship.
That has a real ring to it, and a bit more honest a title..

I think thats actually a very accurate description of the individuals that play these events, one that could even be a discussion point for a new thread. After all the way the amateur game is in golf is completely bizarre in some instances. I play off scratch so would be eligible for this type of event but in all honesty i would not because the level of scratch golf compared to a +4/+5 is a different ball game and these guys generally speaking have sponsors and backing to play the game fulltime even though they are amateurs (pro's in waiting) whereas the rest of us do not and have full time jobs too.

I actually think there should be a better way to differentiate from Amateur golf and Club golf, because most of these amateur guys will rarely compete at their home courses anyway. We now have a proper AGWR for the these guys that most club scratch golfers couldn't hope to get near whether that be because of talent or just purely not having the time to dedicate to the sport these sponsored Am's get.

Maverick

Posts : 2680
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 44
Location : Kent

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by kwinigolfer Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Apropos the recent success of amateurs in isolated US events, Tom Watson was asked yesterday about "another good week for amateurs":
"The amateurs of today are pros. They are not amateurs. They are pros. They have a lot of competition, and they have the trainers like the pros do. They have the coaches like the pros do. They have the video equipment like the pros do. What do you call them. Ainos. Amateurs in name only, I guess."

Obviously that was in reference to advanced amateurs, primarily college players, who have enjoyed some recent success in the United States, and is certainly not a reference to amateurs in other countries' programmes.

If the English Amateur contestants do not have this faux sponsorship, these facilities, then to compare them with American amateurs is really apples and oranges.

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26476
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JDandfries Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:18 pm

The top English AM's have exactly the same backing as most other countries, they form an elite team, or get coaching and are funded by the EGU (or whoeever) so that they can play all over the world - I imagine very few actually hold down jobs and are by definition FULL TIME golfers - and as Watson says, just AM's by name alone!

JDandfries

Posts : 1231
Join date : 2011-03-28

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by George1507 Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:45 pm

I think there's a few older guys playing in both the English and Scottish amateur championships. I don't think they are all 20 somethings.

George1507

Posts : 1336
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by kwinigolfer Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:52 pm

George:
Does the R&A hold a "Mid Amateur" in the same way as the USGA does?
I think the USGA version is for golfers 35 and older and by that time players still competing in the amateur ranks are presumably amateurs in the true sense of the word.

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26476
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by George1507 Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:00 pm

The R&A stopped the mid amateur championship in 2007. There are EGU and SGU versions though. It's 35 and older.

There are (or were) some significantly older guys in the English and Scottish Championships though - I had a quick glance through and saw John Ambridge, David Strachan who are 50+ and Allan Thomson who must be mid 40s.

George1507

Posts : 1336
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by super_realist Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:08 pm

George, The SGU version has been binned too, it was 25 and over.

super_realist

Posts : 29075
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Stavanger, Norway

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Doon the Water Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:37 pm

George
Alan Thomson got to the semis of the Scottish a couple of years ago at Prestwick

Doon the Water

Posts : 2482
Join date : 2011-04-14
Age : 76
Location : South West Scotland

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by JPX Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:55 am

For those worrying about the standard of players and the scoring, that's why these events have 2 strokeplay rounds, to sort the men from the boys. The matchplay is nearly always made up of high quality amateurs, and the winner I will guarantee will be an England international or on the fringes.

My money for this is on Tyrell Hatton, quality player and as good as Tom Lewis. I'll be very surprised if anyone beats him.

JPX

Posts : 1110
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Twatshire

Back to top Go down

English Amateur Empty Re: English Amateur

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum