Womens' Open.

First topic message reminder :

Just passed Natalie Gulbis out shopping ahead of the Womens Open.
What's all the fuss about? People make out she's a knockout, bit of a scrubber to be fair. There are scores of better looking women in the game than her.

Ok, I see yet more perspective is needed. Notwithstanding the Evian was played on an inland course, its yardage was set at 6345 yards.

You can only set yardages appropriate to field length. I can't think of anything more boring than watching golfers struggle to make one par four after another by having hit wood into the green. I want to see these girls hit a range of irons.

The yardages would have been set quite sometime ago and, unless you believe the LGU has access to a crystal ball, I feel sure would have opted for setting the tees to allow for breezy conditions. Depending on whether on not how the course itself is running (hopefully fast!) then even light breezy conditions will present a sufficient enough challenge for the players.

Besides which, I rather think the course itself will have the final say in the matter because you don't really believe they will get benign conditions for all four days, do you?

I hope Carnoustie don't take too many pelters for setting it up too easy and flip the other way and take it out on the Tassie competitors. I bet the wind is saving itself as well

Surely they'll have the option of moving the tees back at the weekend if the 18th becomes a birdie fest. I just don't understand why 17 would be made a 5 ahead of 12. 14 & 12 are the two par 4s that change to 5s when the tees move from yellow to White for the men.

Looking at the forecast Gael it looks like the wind will be just that. Nothing more than 8mph (a mere asthmatic pensioner clearing his throat) forecast before Monday.

Looking out on the River Tay Estuary from my office window now and it's like a mirror.

I don't think the course needs be longer, where's the fun in watching these ladies hit fairwood after fairway wood. It the guys were doing that it'd be boring too. SUrely we want to see how good they are with the range of clubs in their bags from drivers to wedges. Some of these ladies have really good technique and can teach us a lot and there's not a great deal of fun if they have to hit fairway woods contantly and not much entertainment seeing shots nowhere near the pins due to course being too long

Well, I guess that all depends on how the course is set up, doesn't it? If the fairways are running fast and the greens are slick, it won't need much wind to make it a test now, will it?

Mav, it's not about hitting wood after wood or making the course excessively long, it's about retaining the features that make Carnoustie probably the best venue in Open golf, and that's the last three holes. Make them too easy and you risk a procession or an anti climax finish.

Remember, it's the players who are also suggesting it's made a bit trickier.

SR

I have not played carnousite so I would be keen to hear what you think are the main features of the course that would challenge the player. Yes it might be tough from the tee as often advertised by the coverage of the open but is this really its main defence. Most great courses get really interesting around the green.

I remember watching the women’s open at Birkdale and thinking that the players were much more able at using the ground game compared to the men. A few times there were players embracing the ground conditions and running the ball up from well short of the green. Kim seemed like she loved the conditions and unlike a certain norther irish youngster was able to adapt and gain pleasure from this truer form of the game.

Mac, Unless you've played it it's a difficult one to describe. There's some classic holes on the course where if you play from too far forward or too far back you are taking certain classic design features out of play.
In the case of the women playing some holes which are fairly short due to pushing the tees forward then this will result in a high % of GIR, taking out all the greenside stuff you like to see.

The final three holes are what make this hole the classic venue that it is and what make it an entertaining Open stage as anything from birdie to double bogey can occur in the closing stages. If you take that element out, then you might as well host it on another course.

I think you'd wet your pants if you played Carnoustie Mac, because it knocks TOC into a cocked hat in every respect except for the much vaunted history, in pure golf terms it's hard to beat.

super_realist wrote:Mac, Unless you've played it it's a difficult one to describe. There's some classic holes on the course where if you play from too far forward or too far back you are taking certain classic design features out of play.
In the case of the women playing some holes which are fairly short due to pushing the tees forward then this will result in a high % of GIR, taking out all the greenside stuff you like to see.

The final three holes are what make this hole the classic venue that it is and what make it an entertaining Open stage as anything from birdie to double bogey can occur in the closing stages. If you take that element out, then you might as well host it on another course.

I think you'd wet your pants if you played Carnoustie Mac, because it knocks TOC into a cocked hat in every respect except for the much vaunted history, in pure golf terms it's hard to beat.

Good description SR... Played both Carnoustie and TOC and although enjoyed them both didnt think the TOC was as good as I thought it was going to be.

S_R ... the par 3 16th hole is 213 yards. 'Nuff said!

Notwithstanding the issue over whether or not the 17th should be a par 5, presumably the players will still have to lay up short of the burn. Even for the men, the shot to the green is no pushover.

As for the par four 18th hole, ragardless of what they end up hitting into the green, there is an awful lot of stuff to mess with the mind at this hole not least of which is the drive itself!

True Gael, fair enough for the 16th, that still remains a tough par 3, however the 17th is a 433 yard par 5!!!! and 18 is 386 yards, so on those holes they really are making those signature holes a bit too easy (in my opinion) and taking away what makes them special and tournament defining.

SR

TOC is a doak ten, not sure what carnoustie is but it is not a 10.

I would certainly agree the 17th shouldn't be a par 5. Perhaps it's to compensate for the vast number of bogeys that will occur at the 16th!!!

Incidentally, do you know whether or not the course is looking like a links course or is it too green? If the wind conditions are going to be of the soft side then I hope this, in turn, will encourage them to cut 'em slick!

McLaren wrote:SR

TOC is a doak ten, not sure what carnoustie is but it is not a 10.

Mac, no one but but you gives a flying f**k about the Doak scale. The vast majority who play both courses from a golfing perspective almost alway agree that Carnoustie is a better test of golf.
The Doak scale is completely subjective. For example, He has The New Course as a 5, and that's a much better course than the Old, I'm guessing he's added 5 to TOC because of the history. Typical sentimental yank.

Gael, not sure about Carnoustie, but we've had a fair bit of rain lately up here and St.Andrews is still quite green with burnt patches. As the crow flies it's not far away so I expect it will be similar.

I'm sorry but DOAk is a numpty... TOC better than carnoustie what's he been smoking...

Carnoustie is a far better test of golf than TOC. In fact TOC has no more than 4 decent holes. It has one of the worst opening and finishing holes in golf, most of them are purely just filler with literally a couple exceptions and if it didn;t have it's history would barely make a list of decent coure let alone top 100.

Carnoustie has far more to test your game than the majority of the open course and i;d go as far to say TOC is the weak link in the Open rota

SR

Where did you find out the new courses doak rating. The book is now worth about £300 minimum. If you have a source wuold you mind posting the link.

I love the new course but just not quite as much as TOC.

Just found it online. It's absurd for a book to cost that much. His opinions are as worthless and subjective as "Top 100 Courses" websites. They give an indication of which courses fall within Poor, Good, Excellent etc but that's it.

Any chance you could post the link?

http://redanman.com/doakscale.aspx

We need chili's perspective on this, didn't he used to play Carnoustie all the time?
Abandoned 606 because he kept on getting (very wrongly) moderated, but it would be good to have his expertise and opinions on 606v2.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Like so many threads recently, this one has drifted wildly off topic and what started as a convivial article about Super's encounter with Natalie Gulbis has now turned into a debate about the difficulty of the course for the ladies (or women, i can't remember which was agreed on to be PC)

This is why i, like so many others, am becoming disillusioned with the forum

Just thought i'd throw that in as we're all becoming so precious these days about things staying on topic, politically correct and the wind ups. Because none of that happened on old 606..............

When did we all become so sanctimonious??

Can I be so bold as to make a suggestion folks? When starting a new thread, why not put either *SERIOUS* or *FUN* in the title of the thread thenwe'll know whether the OP is happy for a bit of banter or wants to keep it serious?

Seems like a good compromise to me.......

Yes I remember chilli, I wonder if he has had a look at v2.

Thanks SR. The book is in tha national library of scotland, i keep meaning to go in and have a look.

It does not look like the course has been easy, maybe just rewarding good play. Up to T21 only under par. We have seen many a major where the leading score after day 1 to par is better than the winning score to par. Just shows how little point there is getting focused on par.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Like so many threads recently, this one has drifted wildly off topic and what started as a convivial article about Super's encounter with Natalie Gulbis has now turned into a debate about the difficulty of the course for the ladies (or women, i can't remember which was agreed on to be PC)

This is why i, like so many others, am becoming disillusioned with the forum

Just thought i'd throw that in as we're all becoming so precious these days about things staying on topic, politically correct and the wind ups. Because none of that happened on old 606..............

When did we all become so sanctimonious??

I'm sorry but when I see a thread that is headed Women's Open, I expect to see a sensible discussion about the tournament and not whether Super fancies Natalie Gulbis after seeing her in a supermarket! It's not off-topic to try and discuss the golf course and how it is going to play and Super is actually the one at fault for giving his thread an incorrect title, to be pedantic about it. Why is it that sex has to be brought into the discussion whenever women's golf (it is "women" by the way, not "ladies" - and that's not being PC) is mentioned? Gael and I don't start discussing the merits of the physique of the male golfers every time there is a tournament. I'm not being santimonious. If you want to discuss lusting after women golfers or not, then go ahead, but give it the correct title so I can ignore it.

Yes, I gave it a misleading title, hardly a hanging offence. It wouldn't have taken more than a fleeting visit to realise the actual content so you haven't wasted much time, however we've actually turned full circle and turned a topic round to what the subject actually purpotes it to be about. So in some way I have succeeded.

Ladyputt ... I suspect S_R was being mischievous ... the misleading thread title being deployed to deliberately provoke a reaction from the two female posters.

As I said before, one of his darker days.

Actually no Gael, it wasn't intended to be particularly provacative. I was actually enjoying debating the merits of Carnoustie though so can we please get back on topic before we all get reprimanded for "going off topic" and incurring the wrath of the moderators?

s_r - do you get a thrill out of taking potshots at moderators even when we've done nothing wrong?

Davie, tongue in cheek.
I've always thought that "going off topic" was a natural progression and indication that a thread had run it's course.

I'm with SR with regards to the final 3 holes and the challenge they (should) provide. During last years Tassie I think the shortest the 16th was during the week was 245 and the wind was predominately out of the East all week. I remember nailing a driver out the screws with a fairly low flight and it just crept on. On the Friday (bounce round so Bushnell used) it scoped at 261 tee to pin.
17 was predominately downwind so an easy rescue onto the island was leaving a 5/6 iron in. A combination of greenside bunkering, clever in placements, an overhit and a hook meant I did nothing better than double bogey the whole week
As for the 18th, you must get a good drive away and be on the fairway if you want to go for it in 2 with a mid to long iron. With those clubs in hand, a burn before and the hotel behind it is an intimidating shot. I think the hotel helps the wind to swirl a bit and do strange things. At 386 yards and little wind the top women will be driver wedge, drives will sail past the right fairway bunkers. Yes the whole field have the same hole but I'd be really surprised if we saw much drama a la VdV or Harrington/Sergio for that matter.

Davie you seem to be becoming ever sicker with an illness that struck poor hobo. I do believe it is called modoversensitiveitis.

Guys, can we please get this back on topic.

Mav - post the picture of your mrs. How does she rate on the doak scale?

S_R ... if I may make a suggestion ... that, in future, you precede such thread titles with the word "totty"!

Anyway, coverage has just started on BBC and the course is looking very green and the scoring is low but we shall see where things stand after four rounds. I'm predicting the course will still have the final word.

Mac it's easy to take pot shots at mods saying were being over sensitive etc, but when we get complaints and PM's from people complaining about threads we have to react then other times when we choose to leat a thread take it's natural cause were accused of not moderating enough, so how about keeping it to the discussion at hand and let the MOD's worry about MOD'ing what really does offend people the stuff that gets reported through the proper channels. There's nothing wrong with some tongue in cheek humour can actually help a thread sometimes.

Much like this one of SR's it may not have been everyones cup of tea and had a title which didn't really relate to the OP but has helped some good debate about the ladies open. I use this just as reference not as gospel before you decide to go off on one about over moderation or getting annoyed at a Jovial comment of your own...

Besides back to the important stuff the topic.. .Picture of my Mrs well the ones i have are for those special moments..........

Gael didn't realise the BBC had the open as the only ad's i've seen have been on ESPN.

Hopefully then we'll get some good uninterupted coverage from lady BEEB which hopefully doesn't have Hazel Irvine fronting it

Gael, no need to be so precious. You've posted a lot on this thread so it was perhaps not quite as objectionable or off topic as you suggest. Either way it's produced a lot of discussion from both genders.

Incidently, it's raining here now, should be at Carnoustie soon if not already.

Mav

I hope 606v2 provide davie and hobo with ample kleenex expense accounts. What with all the bleeting the do.

Actually if your girlfriend is as described and you have some photo's I hope you too have an ample supply of kleenex.

SR

If the weather is turning maybe the course set up will turn out to be about right. look how terrible the weather was a RStG's and the winning score was still under par. The organisers of major events are slowly realising +5 for the winner is no fun to watch.

Mac, wind is almost zero, so I don't think it will have a big effect. It's only drizzle anyway.

Mac to be fair to any of the admin team the amount of reports that come through to us it would be a full time job let alone something done as an addition to actual paid work so if there is any bleeting going on it's done with plenty of justice.

As for my WIFE not girlfriend, there's no need for Kleenex if you catch my drift..

Conditions should be fairly calm all week so provided the course is well set up weather will not be needed as a factor for a good battle to the end for the winner.

McLaren wrote:Keizo

Come on man just take a look at this.

http://sports.popcrunch.com/the-50-hottest-female-golfers-of-all-time-50-41/

You would not kick any of them out of bed for a bad fart.

Awww come on Mac like sharrison said many are dodgy and when you look at their background you see most of them just played college golf and appeared on big break on the golf channel. Do a count down to the top 50 golfers and see if you can come up with half decent ones

Good 1st round from Pamela Pretswell.

Sun shining in Angus today - would imagine there will be a good score to be had if the set up is relatively straightforward again

Indeed / crikey - some good scores today so far. -8 and a few -6's for the completed rounds. Yani Tseng now just off the lead, Paula Creamer top American, both in the clubhouse.

Enjoy yourselves while you can ladies, because one day, this championship will belong to Mavette...

Skydriver wrote:Indeed / crikey - some good scores today so far. -8 and a few -6's for the completed rounds. Yani Tseng now just off the lead, Paula Creamer top American, both in the clubhouse.

Enjoy yourselves while you can ladies, because one day, this championship will belong to Mavette...

Nice to see my little lass is getting a mention here. If she continues to develop the way she is then I will gladly put a bet on her one day. I've found the best thing for her development is not push her only offer advice if she asks for it and allow her to develop naturally with the county coaching scheme and her Pro teacher who happens to be a friend of mine. I;ll just be the proud the dad that offers whatever support she requires.

I've been watching a bit of the Women's Open today, and I might be doing them a disservice but a great deal of the pitching and chipping I've seen has been pretty fairly lamentable.
Perhaps they're having an off day, but there's no reason why a woman can't chip as well as a man, however we're not seeing it today. Given the easy conditions I wonder why?

Mav
Have you taken her to watch guid women playin gowf.

Very good for her development, If you can't get to Pro events take her to top amateur events like the British or English.

Can we all have an sharp intake of breath and give Catriona a bit of a blow tomorow. The German girl looks very calm, I think I would put my pennies on her.

There are lots of comments on here about the course being set up to play easy.

Perhaps they could stretch one or two of the holes to make it a slightly harder test.

Equally there seems to be some ludicrously unfair things too - the left of the 18th green has been shaved down so that a ball landing on the green and kicking left could go out of bounds.

Let's have some sense - that grass should be short rough so it stops good shots that have just kicked off the green.

George
Like the road hole at TOC or the 13th at Augusta.

The 18th at Carnoustie looks pretty fair to me.
Some other guys on here seem to be a bit upset that the wee lassies are taking Carnoustie apart.

super_realist wrote:I've been watching a bit of the Women's Open today, and I might be doing them a disservice but a great deal of the pitching and chipping I've seen has been pretty fairly lamentable.
Perhaps they're having an off day, but there's no reason why a woman can't chip as well as a man, however we're not seeing it today. Given the easy conditions I wonder why?

I have been at Carnoustie the last couple of days and trust me their short game is pretty impressive. What you may not (or may) appreciate is the size of the greens, almost St Andrews size, with lots of borrow. Catriona's short game yesterday was good and her putting even better. More of the same today please.

Just cause there are some low scores doesn't always means it's easy. I'm not sure those who missed the cut would all agree about the course. Christina Kim's scores where not very good for what is claimed to be an easy course in benign conditions.

Maple, I do appreciate the size of the greens. I live about 10 miles away and have played the course many times.

People have to miss the cut.