Is it too easy to turn Pro?

Following on from a couple of threads recently about scratch players, plus handicaps and the like, and in light of a match I played last night the thought has occured to me that it is far too easy to become a professional golfer these days. The scores from the English Amateur, supposedly all scratch and plus handicap players, included some that even I, off 12, wouldn't have been overly delighted with even round championship courses like those. We all have bad days/weeks, but surely if you are playing at that level a shocker is dropping maybe 6 or 7 in a round? Many of those players will be professionals in the near future, and given the number of mini-tours these days there's plenty of opportunity for them to play for cash. I played a 4bbb match against a couple of guys who'd turned pro 2 or 3 years ago and now have their amateur status back and got handicaps of 1 and 2 on resubmitting their cards. Round their home course, that was the best as they could manage in the 3 rounds they submitted. Naturally they're not able to practise as much as when they were pros now that they have to do something else for a living, but if I'm honest their on course demeanour and general standard of play was pretty poor for supposed ex-professionals.

So, should there be some sort of raising of the bar, so that much like the old handicapping system's requirement of 4 away rounds there's a bit more to turning pro (touring rather than teaching) than just getting down to scratch or thereabouts and then finding a tour to play on?

You can turn pro in any sport almost when ever you like, but if you aren't good enough to make the grade then you get found out, you won't make any money and you'll be forced by poverty into giving up the professional game.

Handicap and the submission of a few cards are not necessarily a good measure of what makes a good pro.

For example Poulter and Yang turned pro off 4 and have been very successful, while there have been scores of players off +4 or better who have sunk without trace upon turning pro.


All golfers once they reach a certain standard all have broadly similar games. The difference is generally in the short game under pressure and the mental side of the game.
The vast majority of people cannot handle this aspect.

That's what I'm getting at though s_r - if there was some other measure beyond handicap like a minimum position in selected amateur events it might benefit all concerned.

Though that still wouldn't necessarily separate the wheat from the chaff. Amateur golf is littered with people with glittering Amateur careers who simply can't make the step up to the pro ranks.

Gordon Sherry, for example.
In other sports there are lots of "professionals" who settle down to a different level of attainment. Sport needs professionals of all levels, and from them the cream rises to the top. It gives people dreams and something to aim for that one day they might make the top. If they had to get to a glass ceiling then we might lose them from the game altogether and the strength in depth would be diminished.

I actually think it could be descrobed as too hard in golf.

Not the turning pro part, but the getting on tour and making it, because it isn't simply about ability! As SR Says

Every tour up until the European or US Tours requires a huge financial investment just to make a loss on the hope you do well enough to get a few exemptions.

Then there is the Tour School, which is unbleieveably hard to qualify for - so I certainly don't think it is too easy to make it, but perhaps it should be looked into as to the things you must attain to turn pro - ie it used to eb that u needed to be of 4 or less and pass a few easy exam and you could be PGA registered, not sure how it works now!

In what other sport could someone like John Daly win the USPGA?

He went on to have a good career winning two majors, had it not been for the USPGA (13 reserve) what would have been of his career?

The playing criteria for becoming a PGA qualified pro is suprisingly poor. I think you have to shoot two medal rounds with a combined total of
+15 or better.

TM2K

Plenty 10 handicappers could shoot 2 combined round of +15, I take it you mean -15.

Scoring well is only half the battle.
The pro's who are good enough to make it do, the ones who don't don't. Simple.

I think that they way that it works at the moment is fine. The minor pro tours hardly give you enough income for an extravagant lifestyle after your entry/travel costs so if you don't make it on them then you simply do not earn a living. Add this to the fact that there are a lot more minor tours and thus opportunities and it means that neither are you taking up spots that other players might make better use of.

Even with amateur events, the fact that a large percentage of the field has little chance of making it on tour is irrelevant to the event organisers because they have paid their fees like everyone else so the event works on a financial level. And of course, the best players will win and this again suits the event organisers...

S_R

I have a mate who has just passed his playing exam to become a club pro and it was definitely plus 15. I was absolutely shocked but he says it's in the financial interests of the PGA to have as many people taking the courses as it costs in excess of £2000 to complete.

Obviously this is only for working in a pro shop but still...

I think to say it's too easy to turn pro is far to generalised a statement. AS there are varying levels of being a pro. To become a PGA registered pro for example requires a handicap of 4 or less, then you must pass a playing ability test (unless your handicap is scratch then you are exempt) plus other entrance exams just to get on the PGA scholarship course. Then throughout you have to achieve certain levels of play which must show improvement for every year of the course duration as well as studying for and passing written and practical exams. You have to do all this whilst working 5/6 days a week in shop on very little pay. Many of the guys i know that took this route had to take a second evening job just to earn enough to get by and still find time to study and practice.

Then there's the playing pro's some of the really good Am's don't cut it and they can be more naturally talented than the guys that do. One guy i know turned pro via Euro Pro tour off a handicap of +5 did ok for a few years but never made a significant imcome to progress further up the tours. He now has very good job working as a director for the Euro Pro tour. Go up another level to the challenge tour and this is littered with guys far to good for smaller tours but still not good enough for the ET. Even some of the CT graduates struggle to then make the step up to full ET e.g young Matt Haines a walker cup player finished 2nd on last years CT OOM and bagged a couple of wins but is struggling to make a cut this year on the ET and he is a fantastic young player with bags of talent.

Just to get to final Q School isn't cheap nor is it easy, then actually getting through that and making a career on tour is even harder. So I don't think it is too easy at all to turn pro in fact it's much harder than some people think and it's even harder to maintain the level required

TM2K wrote:The playing criteria for becoming a PGA qualified pro is suprisingly poor. I think you have to shoot two medal rounds with a combined total of
+15 or better.

I think that you may be confusing a playing pro with a teaching one. A playing pro is just someone that accepts money when they win an event and can thus live off his/her winnings. A teaching pro has to be under 4 (or 3, I think?) and take a 3 year apprenticeship under a qualified PGA pro, which includes written and practical exams etc. This means that they have to basically work for pittance for 3 years before being able to charge for lessons so is not exactly an easy thing to do. Also, a good teacher doesn't necessarily have to score well themselves - Leadbetter, Harmon, Stockton etc etc hardly had glittering pro careers yet their teaching careers speak for themselves...

TM2K wrote:S_R

I have a mate who has just passed his playing exam to become a club pro and it was definitely plus 15. I was absolutely shocked but he says it's in the financial interests of the PGA to have as many people taking the courses as it costs in excess of £2000 to complete.

Obviously this is only for working in a pro shop but still...

That is an appalling state of affairs, I'm not that over par for my last 6 rounds.
Mind you many club pro's are just glorified Mars Bar salesmen so I don't suppose there is much point in the PGA being too selective.

Maverick wrote:I think to say it's too easy to turn pro is far to generalised a statement. AS there are varying levels of being a pro. To become a PGA registered pro for example requires a handicap of 4 or less, then you must pass a playing ability test (unless your handicap is scratch then you are exempt) plus other entrance exams just to get on the PGA scholarship course. Then throughout you have to achieve certain levels of play which must show improvement for every year of the course duration as well as studying for and passing written and practical exams. You have to do all this whilst working 5/6 days a week in shop on very little pay. Many of the guys i know that took this route had to take a second evening job just to earn enough to get by and still find time to study and practice.

Then there's the playing pro's some of the really good Am's don't cut it and they can be more naturally talented than the guys that do. One guy i know turned pro via Euro Pro tour off a handicap of +5 did ok for a few years but never made a significant imcome to progress further up the tours. He now has very good job working as a director for the Euro Pro tour. Go up another level to the challenge tour and this is littered with guys far to good for smaller tours but still not good enough for the ET. Even some of the CT graduates struggle to then make the step up to full ET e.g young Matt Haines a walker cup player finished 2nd on last years CT OOM and bagged a couple of wins but is struggling to make a cut this year on the ET and he is a fantastic young player with bags of talent.

Just to get to final Q School isn't cheap nor is it easy, then actually getting through that and making a career on tour is even harder. So I don't think it is too easy at all to turn pro in fact it's much harder than some people think and it's even harder to maintain the level required

Mav, I think you're saying the same thing as me but in reverse. It's difficult to make it as a pro, but not necessarily difficult (enough?) to get the chance to try. I did try to point out in the original post that I was talking about playing pros rather than teaching, since the criteria for the latter, albeit apparently lax from a scoring point of view, is already there. I'm thinking of the guys who get to your kind of handicap (or maybe not even that good) without ever really testing themselves away from their home tracks and who very quickly come unstuck on the Jamega tour and the like.

Sorry I did mean teaching pro and I agree with you it is real long, hard slog earning very little cash for a long time. But it's still surprising that, in effect you could walk in off the street and book a lesson with an eight handicapper albeit one who has studied the swing at length for three years.

I didnt mean in any way to cheapen what these guys do as I have some very good friends that do this for a living but in an era when we have an abundance of very good golfers I just find the playing requirements a little surprising. I also appreciate that you don't have to have had a stellar career to be a decent coach but the guys you mentioned would have all been scracth players at some stage I'm sure.

As for playing pros, I think they have it as tough as anyone because of the volumes of great players there are these days. The entry fees into some of the smaller tour events that take place all over the UK are astronomical and some of the organisers are really take the p155 with their cut of the purse.

Smithers, I don't see who loses out apart from the players that aren't good enough though? If they come unstuck on one of the minor tours then that tour has still got it's money so can still function but the player will lose out because they cannot make a living. Also, with more tours like this functioning largely on the back of players that can't make it, at least the players that are good enough are given more opportunities to show that they are.

super_realist wrote:

TM2K wrote:S_R

I have a mate who has just passed his playing exam to become a club pro and it was definitely plus 15. I was absolutely shocked but he says it's in the financial interests of the PGA to have as many people taking the courses as it costs in excess of £2000 to complete.

Obviously this is only for working in a pro shop but still...

That is an appalling state of affairs, I'm not that over par for my last 6 rounds.
Mind you many club pro's are just glorified Mars Bar salesmen so I don't suppose there is much point in the PGA being too selective.

I would like to know over how many rounds was that final playing exam as I find it hard to believe +15 would be accepted as a one round final exam being played over the Brabazon which is where they hold it. Especially as the entrants exam which is a one round PAT has to be well below that... As for glorified MArs Bar salesmen that is dependant on the ambition of the Pro in question. Yes there are many that settle at a club get their Pro parking space and do little more than run a shop. There are also a lot of ambitious club pro's out there that do not settle for their lot and go onto to achieve a good living as teachers or club management I know a variety of club pro's i'd say 60% do fall into the mars bar salemen category but the others are very ambitious one of the guys I know has gone onto become head teacing coach for Hertfordshire and has spent may years travelling round to learn from Harmon, Plummer and other top teaching pro's and another I know is now heading up corporate golf at the london club and was instrumental in this years golf live, as part of his role he is active in arranging ET Q School stage 1 that is held there.

PGA pro's do not just learn how to teach and sell tee pegs but they do business management to so it depends on the individual and how far they want to go

TM2K wrote:Sorry I did mean teaching pro and I agree with you it is real long, hard slog earning very little cash for a long time. But it's still surprising that, in effect you could walk in off the street and book a lesson with an eight handicapper albeit one who has studied the swing at length for three years.

I didnt mean in any way to cheapen what these guys do as I have some very good friends that do this for a living but in an era when we have an abundance of very good golfers I just find the playing requirements a little surprising. I also appreciate that you don't have to have had a stellar career to be a decent coach but the guys you mentioned would have all been scracth players at some stage I'm sure.

As for playing pros, I think they have it as tough as anyone because of the volumes of great players there are these days. The entry fees into some of the smaller tour events that take place all over the UK are astronomical and some of the organisers are really take the p155 with their cut of the purse.

The other point with teaching pros is that a better player that left school early to try and make it as a playing pro might not know enough about the other areas of a teaching pro's job like marketing, organising events, teaching the right way etc. A naturally gifted player that is not quite good enough would then maybe not as good as a coach as an 8 handicapper that has learnt how to be a teaching pro.

sharrison01 wrote:Smithers, I don't see who loses out apart from the players that aren't good enough though? If they come unstuck on one of the minor tours then that tour has still got it's money so can still function but the player will lose out because they cannot make a living. Also, with more tours like this functioning largely on the back of players that can't make it, at least the players that are good enough are given more opportunities to show that they are.

Fair point, sh. I suppose my concern is the dilution of overall quality but given the state of the game here at the very top level I really oughtn't worry!

Maverick wrote:

super_realist wrote:

TM2K wrote:S_R

I have a mate who has just passed his playing exam to become a club pro and it was definitely plus 15. I was absolutely shocked but he says it's in the financial interests of the PGA to have as many people taking the courses as it costs in excess of £2000 to complete.

Obviously this is only for working in a pro shop but still...

That is an appalling state of affairs, I'm not that over par for my last 6 rounds.
Mind you many club pro's are just glorified Mars Bar salesmen so I don't suppose there is much point in the PGA being too selective.

I would like to know over how many rounds was that final playing exam as I find it hard to believe +15 would be accepted as a one round final exam being played over the Brabazon which is where they hold it. Especially as the entrants exam which is a one round PAT has to be well below that... As for glorified MArs Bar salesmen that is dependant on the ambition of the Pro in question. Yes there are many that settle at a club get their Pro parking space and do little more than run a shop. There are also a lot of ambitious club pro's out there that do not settle for their lot and go onto to achieve a good living as teachers or club management I know a variety of club pro's i'd say 60% do fall into the mars bar salemen category but the others are very ambitious one of the guys I know has gone onto become head teacing coach for Hertfordshire and has spent may years travelling round to learn from Harmon, Plummer and other top teaching pro's and another I know is now heading up corporate golf at the london club and was instrumental in this years golf live, as part of his role he is active in arranging ET Q School stage 1 that is held there.

PGA pro's do not just learn how to teach and sell tee pegs but they do business management to so it depends on the individual and how far they want to go

You are right, the final playing exam is held round the Brabazon and it's +15 combined for two rounds.

SmithersJones wrote:

Maverick wrote:I think to say it's too easy to turn pro is far to generalised a statement. AS there are varying levels of being a pro. To become a PGA registered pro for example requires a handicap of 4 or less, then you must pass a playing ability test (unless your handicap is scratch then you are exempt) plus other entrance exams just to get on the PGA scholarship course. Then throughout you have to achieve certain levels of play which must show improvement for every year of the course duration as well as studying for and passing written and practical exams. You have to do all this whilst working 5/6 days a week in shop on very little pay. Many of the guys i know that took this route had to take a second evening job just to earn enough to get by and still find time to study and practice.

Then there's the playing pro's some of the really good Am's don't cut it and they can be more naturally talented than the guys that do. One guy i know turned pro via Euro Pro tour off a handicap of +5 did ok for a few years but never made a significant imcome to progress further up the tours. He now has very good job working as a director for the Euro Pro tour. Go up another level to the challenge tour and this is littered with guys far to good for smaller tours but still not good enough for the ET. Even some of the CT graduates struggle to then make the step up to full ET e.g young Matt Haines a walker cup player finished 2nd on last years CT OOM and bagged a couple of wins but is struggling to make a cut this year on the ET and he is a fantastic young player with bags of talent.

Just to get to final Q School isn't cheap nor is it easy, then actually getting through that and making a career on tour is even harder. So I don't think it is too easy at all to turn pro in fact it's much harder than some people think and it's even harder to maintain the level required

Mav, I think you're saying the same thing as me but in reverse. It's difficult to make it as a pro, but not necessarily difficult (enough?) to get the chance to try. I did try to point out in the original post that I was talking about playing pros rather than teaching, since the criteria for the latter, albeit apparently lax from a scoring point of view, is already there. I'm thinking of the guys who get to your kind of handicap (or maybe not even that good) without ever really testing themselves away from their home tracks and who very quickly come unstuck on the Jamega tour and the like.

Apolgies SJ i didn't just take note of the Playing part of the original thread and went off in my own tangent happens a lot these days....

With regards to just playing pro's I have to admit I cannot understand guys that get down to scratch or even slightly higher decide to become a playing pro. I can regularly go round my home course and others all over the place at par or better when I don't have a gammy leg, but in no way do I think I'm good enough to be a playing pro. I am fortunate enough to know a few guys that are playing pro's at varying level even ET level and I would say even when I'm knocking it off the screws i'd be several shots behind them.

There was a guy i was a junior with who to this day plays off a handicap of 2 at the same course we grew up at, now he can go round there several under par but then my 11 year old daughter who plays off of 11 can go round there in +2 due to the way they've severly reduced the course since a link road went through it.. Never known him to return a score anywhere near par or his 2 handicap at away courses, yet he decided when were in our late teens to turn pro and try out for the Euro Pro and mini tours, he payed a full season of events never made it within 10 shots of a cut and returned to the amateur ranks where he still remains a 2 handicap. The problem with these guys which is one I don't have hence why i've never tried to go pro is that get delusional from playing with guys that bloke smoke up their backsides at their home courses stating how good they are and how they can make it. When in fact they can't and never would be able to in a month of sundays but will then live off stories like see that guy there he used to play euro pro blah blah blah.... When in truth they got above their stations and made themselves look like a t1t

TM2k +15 for 2 rounds that is still a seriously high qualifying score, must've been a need for a new batch of PGA guys. The highest i've known it is +7 over the 2 rounds and that was in howling conditions when a friend did his final PAT.

Excellent Mav, and I think that sums up those who can and those who can't very well.
There's a lot of billy big shots around who think they are something special and every course has them. in fact there's a couple, one in particular at my club who is the smuggest most intolerable player around, used to get lessons from Bob Torrance, constantly getting smoke blown up his bum by people yet has never got below one. Played with him a few times and i've seen him top it on many occasions. No chance of making it.

Apologies also, I didn't take note of the playing part of the pros either.

Couldn't agree more with Maverick...golf clubs are full of these sort of characters!!

To be a good golf teacher or coach, do you need to be a good golfer? Or do you just need to know what makes a good golfer. If you know what needs to be done and you can teach someone how to do it, does it matter if your HC is +4 or 15?

Some of the ebst coachs in other sports where not great players.

beninho wrote:To be a good golf teacher or coach, do you need to be a good golfer? Or do you just need to know what makes a good golfer. If you know what needs to be done and you can teach someone how to do it, does it matter if your HC is +4 or 15?

Some of the ebst coachs in other sports where not great players.

No you don't need to be a great player but in golf I would say you still need to be a good player and better than the members unless you get an exceptionally good scratch or + player. Because you need be good enough to demonstrate whats a good action and if playing wiht club members during playing lesson or pro am's you should be able to show your better than a single figure player.

SR, clubs are littered with them, last year alone I played in an event with a guy off +1 at RCP a former services open day where the standard is usually pretty good. I was lucky enough to win the event with rounds of -3 and Level par. Yet the +1 guy had a caddy all the gear etc, went round in +10 and +8, yet the guy he was with was like you should see him on a good day at our place 5 or 6 under easy and could easily make it as pro was the comment. To which I simply replied well this isn't your place and off +1 I expect him to beat me everytime and if he can't do that then my friend he isn't good enough.

This is only to get PGA qualified, it in no way deems how good you are, it's just a mark they set.

To be a playing pro, you don't need to be PGA qualified, you do however need a tonne of cash and a decent game just to qualify - I think about -10 (for the final stage, which is 6 rounds) got a card last year!

I'd never really come across this type of player before last night, but it seems they're ten a penny. Never known worse losers, and rarely have I encountered players as ill mannered or badly behaved on the course. When I rolled in a curling 10 footer for a par to complete an unlikely up and down on the 9th, the 2 handicapper had an uphill 2-3 footer for a half. When he missed it, I turned and walked towards the next tee, only to be made to jump by the loudest shout of 'God' I've ever heard anywhere, never mind on a golf course. Approaching the 10th green he did come up to me and say 'sorry about that little outburst', to which I could only reply 'Little?'.

Great thread

Not being anywhere near the standard of some on here, I think half the trouble with Billy Big Shot types (Good description) is that they may cream it around their own track and consistently do well in club comps etc, but even a small step up in class is actually a huge leap. They are seeing a whole new meaning to pro golf and constant competition is bound to take a toll. I play great golf in bounce games, but cannot repeat it in competition, and accept that it's just a head problem, but its there. These characters are exactly the same, take them out of their comfort zone and they'll struggle. We all know its the same right at the top of world golf, because theres some fantastic players who will never be able to close out a big event, never mind a major.

So I do believe that it can be too easy for someone to turn pro, and if it is just to create extra revenue then its not good for the game. I played with one of our members last year, a week or so after he won the Trilby. He was in all the local press/media and the club got great copy out of it all. He plays off 3 and if it weren't for the fact that he has a fantastic job, he would be turning pro on the back of it. I played him in the club scratch comp and took him to the 17th before losing. He's not a bad bloke and have a bit of time for him, but some of his comments I found were annoying. Things like he won't enter the club knockout because he doesn't think its fair that a low handicapper can get knocked out by high handicapper. It didn't bother him that I was giving him a 15 shot start though, just to take part. He was going to write to committee to get them to add distance to the course and grow the rough so that it can be toughened up ...... Almost beat the gobshyte, but every club has got these knoobs

Ha ha, what a plonker, he wins a tinpot gimmick tournament and he's swanning around the place like he's just won The Masters. That's a beezer of a story.

super_realist wrote:That's a beezer of a story.

Pure dead brilliant!

I suppose that the difference at the top can be quantified when you look at handicaps. As a very simplified example, a cat 1 player off of, say, 4 will only go down 0.1 for every shot under his handicap that he plays. This means that to get to scratch he has to shoot 40 under his handicap (obviously not in one round) which is a huge huge amount. Compare that to a cat 2 player off of 8 that drops 0.2 for every shot down to 5 and then 0.1 and they will have to shoot 25 under their handicap to get to a handicap of 4. This simple calculation shows that dropping 4 shots at the top end is so much more difficult - apply the same calculation to higher handicaps and the gulf is even more obvious.

Its become very realistic now to become a pro golfer. With the right training and education of the game, it can take you pretty far in my opinion. I say this because I myself am pursuing a pro career, im currently enrolled at Keiser University College of Golf program. The classes here are amazing, whether you wanna be a pro or work in administration, they have a lot to offer. Something to really consider if anyone is interested, just be sure to follower their Facebook page "College of Golf"

kardak,
Why does their website call it Keiser University?
Perhaps two different places??

Woops! Just a mispell on my part, but its fixed. It is Keiser University though..