NZ Vs SA

First topic message reminder :

Game kicks off in 5 minutes and i have got out of bed especially.

I love the tri nations, despite the fact that this spring bok side could be lambs to the slaughter, you bever know...

All black lineup looks immense!

Prediction
All blacks by more than 14

Or 10 especially.

Yep have to agree on Lambie, he really stood up along with Smit who must've had one of his strongest games in a while.

Several times in the game the commentators were table to talk us through what the ABs were about to do next, it was so obvious from the SA disorganised, or poorly organised defense.

As for the claims of Richie McCaw's evil cheating and deserving a yellow card. Well I'm afraid we hear this chorus after every AB victory. It's almost a proxy to blaming the ref. If you re-view the incident where Chilliboy I think it is makes a great break towards the AB posts and is stopped 5 meters short, it looks to me like Guildford and Mils make the tackle, both roll away and get to their feet. McCaw then joins the breakdown and is pulled to the ground by a South African who joins the ruck at the same time (can't see the number easily), it is however Hore who arrives from behind the last feet, stays on his feet and pulls the ball free before any more Springboks arrive. To me I think the NZ commentator got it wrong when he claims NZ "got the ball to free for it to be legal". Perhaps one of our esteemed refereeing colleagues on the site might be able to comment, but frankly to me, I think he was just isolated and got turned over by some pretty good work.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Watch it again. It wasn't McCaw. Except, apparently in your deluded mind.

Watched it again. It was definitely McCaw. See clip 6:45. Its you thats deluded. McCaw made the tackle and never released the player. On the wrong side of ruck. Its you thats deluded. Even the comentator spots it.

https://youtu.be/55LPhbK9cXw

MBTGOG wrote:

9, 10,7 or 15 hit

And New Zealand won't be struggling if they get injuries at 7 or 9?

didnt say they wouldnt. But we would certainly cope better with the back ups available.
If oz lost cooper and genia their wcup would be effectively over in terms of winning it.
If carter and mccaw and weepu or whoever you mean at 9 were out we would still be favourites. Not as good but our depth would cope with it better relative to similar losses by oz or boks.

leinsterbaby wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:Watch it again. It wasn't McCaw. Except, apparently in your deluded mind.

Watched it again. It was definitely McCaw. See clip 6:45. Its you thats deluded. McCaw made the tackle and never released the player. On the wrong side of ruck. Its you thats deluded. Even the comentator spots it.

https://youtu.be/55LPhbK9cXw

In fairness Mils Muliania's infringement was actually worse. He just threw himself on the wrong side of the ball after the tackle preventing it from coming back on the SA side. He probably deserved a card more even if they both infringed.

leinsterbaby wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:Watch it again. It wasn't McCaw. Except, apparently in your deluded mind.

Watched it again. It was definitely McCaw. See clip 6:45. Its you thats deluded. McCaw made the tackle and never released the player. On the wrong side of ruck. Its you thats deluded. Even the comentator spots it.

https://youtu.be/55LPhbK9cXw

You are right in your comments, McCaw is clearly at fault in that clip. It's quite clear who is deluded.

I think regardless of all this tinkering and gameplaying, the abs are making the message clear with their depth. Come to nz unprepared and pay the price.
SA did nz a huge favour in providing a non full strength team. The chance to confirm our depth. A chance to play players like jane thompson slade williams hore crockett into test match form.
Squabble over the mccaws forward passes all you want but note also that this machine is starting to go through the gears.
Next week will be more of the same.
Oz have a huge task in front of them at fortress eden park.
One lost test since 1986.

As a Scotland supporter first and and then New Zealand second this is my two peneth .

When watching the game live admit that the turnover in front of the posts looked very dodgy and McCaw possibly the culprit but now having seen the other view from the youtube clip I don't think so.

He doesn't make the tackle, he appears to come through the gate and then in an effort to get the ball is pulled over by the SA player. If you look at the way his body moves it's more of a fall than a concerted push. The ref was no more than2 M's away and had a clear view of him but more than likely then blind-sided for any skulduggery on the other side.

Overall very pleased with AB's play and as I predicted to HID 4 years ago good to see Slade at 10

Ahh ... so youre a scot living in NZ? Rangiora or ? Wonder where that came from.
If so do you/ did you get hit by the quakes that far up?
Got tickets to any Scotland matches? Couple of easy matches in Invercargill for you with your tough, probably qualifying match in Wellington after that.

Good draw really.

Taylorman, there is a big difference not playing 4 possible better players to almost a whole squad.

The situation is most teams can play close to their full potential when they sub some players, as those players are given confidence by those experienced players arond them, the situation today was a squad of All Blacks with replacement players in form vs a squad of 3 experienced players where none of them apart from Danie Rossouw in poor form and the rest hopefuls

You know as well as I do, you only need a few scoring opportunities to make a big dent in a scoreline, and in this case it was inevitable that mistakes would turn into opportunities

leinsterbaby wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:Watch it again. It wasn't McCaw. Except, apparently in your deluded mind.

Watched it again. It was definitely McCaw. See clip 6:45. Its you thats deluded. McCaw made the tackle and never released the player. On the wrong side of ruck. Its you thats deluded. Even the comentator spots it.

https://youtu.be/55LPhbK9cXw

No. That's what the commentator says. Try to learn to think for yourself, rather than parrot what someone else tells you just because you want to hear it.

I've watched this incident about 20 times on slow-mo. This is how I see it.

McCaw clearly doesn't make the tackle. Mils and Guildford make the take. Both roll away, and get to their feet. So they're fine. McCaw arrives from the AB side (at this point only the tackled player is lying on the ground) and tries to take the ball from the tackled player who has not released at this point. Almost simultaneously is then pulled to ground by the first arriving South African player. They go to ground together partially and I guess at this point there is a ruck formed. Although maybe not, if they're both of their feet presumably it's not a ruck. Neither McCaw or the guy hanging on to him move away before the ball is cleared. Hore arrives "through the gate" I guess - from the AB try line side and almost directly behind the location of the ball. At this point there are 4 All Blacks there. Mils and Guildford on their feet, Hore on his feet and McCaw on the ground. The original tackled South African is STILL holding the ball at this point, and the other South African is holding on to McCaw around the neck and shoulders, they are slightly to the right of the tackled player. the three standing players step over the prone players and Hore takes the ball from the tackled player who was STILL holding on at this point. At this point several Boks arrive and seem to go to their knees and it gets a bit cluttered, Hore hands the ball to Weepu and he clears.

The comment about Mils deserving a yellow card for it seems bizarre to me, he's the tackler. Not sure why you think him stepping over the tackled player after he'd regained his feet and trying to play the ball was wrong.

I just can't see anything wrong with it. Looks like an isolated South African being turned over by 3 ABs on their feet.

If anything Chilliboy could have been pinged for not releasing I would have thought.

Now if some more qualified person than myself wants to correct me on any of those points, I'm happy to be corrected on a point of fact in the laws where I am mistaken about legality. But I'm certain of the sequence of events, so please don't try to tell me that McCaw was the tackler or tried to play the ball after he was pulled to the ground, or that anyone was "on the wrong side". it's just blatantly not true.

Taylorman wrote:Ahh ... so youre a scot living in NZ? Rangiora or ? Wonder where that came from.
If so do you/ did you get hit by the quakes that far up?
Got tickets to any Scotland matches? Couple of easy matches in Invercargill for you with your tough, probably qualifying match in Wellington after that.

Good draw really.

Aye spot on Taylorman live just outside the fine town of.

We feel anything over 4.4 up here and minor damage from the 7. Rangiora had some damage in the 13th June one and apparently 75 buildings in the High Street are deemed unsafe due the the standards

Had tickets for all the Chch games but now only going to Eng v Arg, Sco v Geo then Sco V Arg in Welly and USA v Italy. Then semi's and final

Oh cool, that'll be great. Who knows might be able to catch up for a beer when the Arg match is on. Not going to that one myself but who knows...

Cheers

couple of things that stood out for me and I thought merited a mention were :
I feel the dbeut last week and this game last night with the ABs has seen south Africa produce another true Loosehead. Dean Greyling. at no time in any facets was he dominated, his work (lifting ) at lineout time was true power.
Another issue i have is with the use by Henry of Liam Massam, there is absolutelty no point in opting for speed aver power when you have a McCaw/thompson combination already. Playing teams like south Africa and australia he is far better to take the lineout/scrum advantages of a 4 that plays 6...... he already had that cover on the bench in Hoeata...

Hi ya Biltong,
Yeah I was only coming from an AB point of view in that the margin doesnt necessarily reflect what it could have been and that although the Boks will have a stronger team at home, so will the AB's.

Have you seen the match yet?

From where I sat it was a huge step forward for the AB's in terms of the execution. Sure the opposition wasnt strong but the SA plan is inadvertently helping with the AB development in a way that is probably better than if they brought their full squad. I hadnt counted on that but we can take some big things from last night.

On the return leg what will SA do- theyll have severe test match exposure when the Oz and NZ teams come into town more prepared and in anoverall sense what good would the retention of the 21 players have done.

Its obvious theres something in it because those injuries werent there after the Stormers match. Tired perhaps but not injured.

And now they'll be too fresh... Guess we'll have to see...

Crikey. You're not Laurie Mains are you Auckland Laurie?

casper.
Nah,I'm not just played,coached and trained a lot of rugby.....

Taylorman, I personally think PDV and his cohorts will have their plan backfire on them.

If he puts his first choice players in for the home leg they will feel the pressure to win and that vs two confident teams who now have the momentum over them.

If he sticks with the current lot, he will expect his first choice team to go cold turkey vs Wales.

Just makes little sense, I am actually at the point where I just want to get the whole mess. Over and done with to see whether we will this time get the right coach.

Incidently I was watching the Currie Cup matches and in all four matches the Young guns mixed with some experience played amazing high intensity rugby, over 30 tries were scored and less than 25% of balls that went through the hands of the flyhalves went to boot.

The only team that still played the kicking game was the Bulls and the received a solid spanking against WP.

As I said on the other thread, it's unlikely that the ABs or Wallabies will send full sides to SA. Firstly if you've already effectively won the tournament, why burden your best players with the travel so close to the RWC? secondly if neither side send quality opposition then SA will go into the RWC at a disadvantage having had a hit out but no build up.

I saw the currie cup game on Friday night, that was a belter.

McCaw did nothing wrong there (the incident in question). Looks like an AB player came in from the side and sealed it off. Wasn't McCaw, he was on the other side of the ruck and he wasn't the tackler.

I think he slowly tries to release the player once he loses his footing as well.

Looks like a front row forward with a headband- freezeframe, it's Wyatt Crockett. Definitely seen them given. Very similar to the infamous penalty conceded by Paddy Wallace in Cardiff!

Definitely could have been whistled, but given it wasn't it has to be said it was very good play. The All Blacks definitely targeted that ball, were back quickly in numbers around the ruck- very fit, very organised, very clinical.

I think that they didn't necessarily enter through the gate but it's what you can get away with. Great turnover.

Isnt it funny. Afer a certain mcaw penalty offence and several hours lapsed throufh examining video mccaw didnt infringe? is tbat tbe latest?
Who'd be a ref ay?

majesticimperialman wrote:New zealand was very good today, but lets behonest here a minutes SA was very poor.

The RWC as not even started yet and already the REF, is favouring NZ.

How many times did Mccaw interferere with the play of the game? and did not even get a talking too.

I'm just happy that for the the AB's were in the +ve in the penalty count. 90%+ of the games we were on the wrong side of that count last year. I'm hoping it's not such a rarity this year.

I frind it somewhat funny looking at my own feelings to this game. The AB's won by a big margin (there biggest against the boks in NZ and more than the Wallabies last week), scored many good tries and dominated many facets of the game, yet I am disapointed.

To many mistakes and some poor option taking I'm thinking.

The mccaw ref thing just seems to be a NH template for AB matches.
That wasnt the biggest thing to come out of the game yet it seems to draw the only conments.
Amazing

I think GH and Co would be happy with that effort. They would be reluctant to say it was perfect otherwise they would be saying they have nothing more to offer. For a second hit out of the year they looked very slick. A few things went astray but that is to be expected for this time of the year.

Their scrum was awesome and with 3 forwards to come back in it is looking ominous. Both wingers had great games - it was good to see the ABs continuing their expansive game taking up from last year. No big changes to how they are approaching the game. McCaw back to his old self and the love affair NH refs have with him continues... (only joking )

Can't wait for Aug 6 - should be a blistering pace.

Hi rob. Yes next week will be great.
My stance is if we can remain unbeaten at that one ground we'll be holding that little cup on 23 oct.
So that thinking must be part of henrys motivation games for the squad. We must win at eden park- the rest we can lose! Alan wont like that mind you.
Other than that its all on rob. The battle of the 10s and 7s will be fun to watch- finegan coming out and fueling it with both smith and pocock better than mccaw stuff. Very good. Gosh mccaw sure gets a lot shoved his way.

Carters taken a realistic and responsible approach to his duel with cooper and did well last night.

Watched pdv earlier in interviews and for the first time ever Ive seen him drop his usual solemn guard. He looks tired of the whole business and I cant help but think all this time hes been weathering the storm for others. Felt a bit sorry for him this time.

SA will now regroup and theyll be under huge pressure to win their home legs so cant see seconds this time. Theyve got time to mull it over.
Exciting times ahead. Wonder what deans has been up to this week.

Anyway. Good luck for next week as we switch our sets back to things oz.

Taylorman wrote:The mccaw ref thing just seems to be a NH template for AB matches.
To be fair, a lot of the NH guys aren't used to watching rugby that happens that quickly. They can't keep up and so imagine phantom breakdown infringements presumably. That and the mythology of McCaw's cheating ways. It seems to be some kind of security blanket.
That wasnt the biggest thing to come out of the game yet it seems to draw the only conments.
Amazing

The thing I find amazing is how many posts pop up that almost exactly regurgitate something that a commentator or pundit said, almost to the letter. Like the posters brain is only a vehicle for translating someone else's thoughts into text.

GG
When I first came on here about 6 weeks ago, Iwas reading a lot of narrow interpretations of games of rugby and refereeing decisions, and not actually engaging?discussing the complaexities of games, and I wondered where i had heard it all before. Then I realised that what i was reading was just comments said in 6 nations and Heineken cup games..

Problem is what to make of this performance by NZ ,press were`nt over effussive about it quite the contrary.
For the Boks the 3Ns is effectively over,the All Blacks did what they had to
a bonus point win plus a points difference lead job done.
A win on Saturday hopefully not conceding a bonus point and sustaining no injuries.
Will put them another step closer to another 3Ns,problem is it was more like a opposed training run than a match.Just about every thing they tried came off,somethings they surely wouldn`t trie in a serious match.
No one played badly,some appeared to play back to there own best form
but what can you tell from a training run?

Exactly alan but perhaps more of an excellent training run.
One that had really assisted the coaches in deciding where some players are at.

That even in a training run Ali Williams looks off the pace?

He's lucky hes in a pos we dont have many of. And theres 2 of them.
Boric and thorne are the only others so unlike someone like guilford he may get more chances.

I don`t no what you want in a lock,he won his restarts and lineouts,was solid in the scrum.has been in pretty good form for Auckland.
You are talking about a great grunt lock Thorn in his last year,who has no real line out skills. For three years since his injuries the all black lineout has struggled.
When he was injured until Tom Donnelly came on the scene was a basket case.
In 2009 a promising Crusaders lock Isaac Ross played in the 3Ns ,he was bulled up and given duties of line out calls too.
In those 3 matches McCaw was back ,but lacking match fitness ,dan Carter missed two of three.
In the third match the home Leg,narrowly lost the All Blacks they lost 13 lineouts in the first half to Botha and Matfield.
Ross was dropped and could`nt even make the Canterbury ITM side has dropped out of site.I read hewas heading abroad.
The All Blacks for the first time in years have consierable depth at Lock,including those mentioned Eaton ,Donnellly,on his Super 15 form even Chris Jacklooked back near his best.
Berkuiss, Romano,the Otago Bolter all look promising,lest you forget Ali Williams was post injury arguably the first or second best lock in world Rugby.
What he needs really needs is start every possible match in the 3Ns and the RWC.
Its a miracle the man is still playing rugby let alone test rugbygive the man respect .
Next year,Thorn will be gone and you could do worse,far worse than Wlliams,Whitehouse, Boric and Jack as your 4 locks in the 3Ns squad especially if Matfield and Botha are gone.

All I was agreeing with is Ali hasnt yet got back to where he was when he left yet and he himselfs sets very high standards.

He was better than last week but still could have featured more against this side.

Just saying he's lucky he has these softer matches to work back in, not saying he won't.

Iceman #1 7:13am
Iagree with this comment!!

Sorry comment about an article in todays dominion post "The saddest Cut"by Iceman tried to paste link but did not come out I agree with it.

emack2 wrote:I don`t no what you want in a lock,he won his restarts and lineouts,was solid in the scrum.has been in pretty good form for Auckland.

Ali? No he didn't. The restart was a mess, and the lineout hardly dominated against what was a SA side playing genuine nobodies.

It's interesting you mention the 13 lineouts NZ lost when they played similarly green locks. How many did SA lose yesterday? just one.

emack2 wrote:Sorry comment about an article in todays dominion post "The saddest Cut"by Iceman tried to paste link but did not come out I agree with it.

Iceman #1 7:13am
Why would Sivi get a run, he played against a rubbish team and was not that flash. Gillford, Jane, Gear and Maitland are the best wingers by a mile in NZ. Woodcock has some way to go to be anything as good as Crockett is right now, I just hope they don't go back to tired old players who haven't played and call them the "A" team. The lads playing well now should stay. Let the injured guys prove themselves in the provincial games rather than droipping guys who are playing well, the Yarpies may not have been great but they were a lot harder than Fiji and the lads cleaned them up easily. Stick with the form players for Gods sake.

From here

They did`nt lose any either,face it Brad Thorn is no real Line out option,when Ali gets back to his best.[If he does] next year he is an option.

I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt because of the wind, which must have been tricky - Steyn missed his first penalty in an era, and put up one of the worlds worst up and unders, and Carter had something like a 50% night with the boot, but we seemed to have 3 or four dangerously botched restarts including one in the second half that almost led immediately to a SA try from the restart just because they were quicker to the ball after Williams missed it. Perhaps the lifters are to blame but something was horribly wrong. One of the hilights last year was the accuracy in this area.

With respect last year isn`t this year,last the side was more or less settled.Had had the July Internationals before the 3Ns .the lifters were Woodcock or Owen Franks.
This year to expect everyone to click straight off,especially with different combinations is asking a lot.
All Blacks usually start the season rustily,this year there has been a lot of disruption due to loss of form and injuries.
Some players underperforming in S15 put a black shirt on there different men.
This year it has been especially difficult due to the length of the S15 season,it is a fine line between enough rest,and getting players game time.
What we don`t want to see is 2006 revisited get a raft of fringe players picking up the odd capbefore vanishing to the NH for cash,
An overstatement I Know.let players like Gear,Toeva,Dagg,Woodcock get match fit in ITM.
Afoa is injured let him get right he`s away post RWC anyway Crockett and the Brotheres Grimm are the form Props pick them !!

On the subject...I hope Guilford manages to keep himself in the top ecehlon as well.

Hes not of the swerve, bump, fend and run mould of Jane, Sivi, Gear etc but what he has is a real rugby brain. He is a cunning rat that sniffs out chances and takes them. Very unorthodox and for my mind a must for this team purely because he adds something different.

The AB's have a terrible habbit of freezing like rabbits caught in headlights and offer nothing over long periods of time during those world cup exit matches- 2003 the worst example...

Guilford is the type to 'find a way' out of nothing and for that reason I think should be selected. He seems to have to play above the others even to get a chance because he isnt in the AB Winger mould but I reckon in his case some latitude should be given with the proviso that he must maintain or better the weekend form during the 3N to prove he can maintain his abilities at this level.

What irony Joe Rocokoko has been doing it for seasons,THE hardest working wing in NZ rugby.Done nothing wrong been dropped and now lost to NZ rugby when he was young enough to still contribute.
Ditto Sivivatu,get injured or play for a team having a rudey poo S15 and you`re gone.Last week Sivi was admittedly not against the greatest team in the world impressive.
BUT take these teams lightly as Australia did vSamoa a banana skin waiting to happen.
Whats the point of a warm up test before a 3Ns andplay your B team,time was you`d have had 3 or 4 trial matches in an important year like this to sort the sheep from the goats.The old Inter Island games were a good starting point if yourold enough to remember them.
Time was playing in one of them was almost as much sort after as an All Black cap.

The reason why guys like Rococoko and sivivatu is lost is simply because NZ has so much depth in the wing positions.

Alan if you mean why oz played a b tean yes they were silly in underestimating samoa but those reds players needed a break and a second oz team should beat a samoan team.roko gas had his run and doesnt offer more than the others. Sivi needs gametime and consistency.
Im not convinced. He can go awol at times.

Hi biltong. Whats your guess for this weekend?
One small faux pas by pdivy today. Said the return of too many rested players might upset the progress of the current side!? ay?!

Morning, I would expect it to be a very good match, but NZ to prevail by roughly 7 points, that is if Deans sends his best. I read that Berrick Barnes believes he is ready to come back into test rugby, is his concussions a thing of the past?

Yeah, PDV says a lot of things, he now said this weekend in Capetwon that when you go to war, you pick your best. So I suppose he picks his battles.

He also reckons that the next coach will be in a good positions because of the guys he sent to Australia and New Zealand.

Go figure.

Yea i think hes just been a figurehead all this time.
He looks different now. Resigned.
Some will have to play now depending on injuries.
Even if theyre not they wont be match ready.
Abs will be looking to redeem hong kong and for some the reds loss.
Those are the last two big matches between us.

It did smell a bit like a coup was going on whilst he had been sent away with the B team, right? they'd also sent off captain Smit to complete the home power vaccuum.

If it comes to pass then I'm going to be forced to feel sorry for PDV.