Which Game Is More Important To Win?

Which game is more important for Ireland to win? The match away to France in Bordeaux in game 2 or the final game at home to England?

If they want to go into the world cup with unwavering confidence surely both

Hard choice - if France away was the last game of the series it would be a clear choice but it would obviously be nice to start the world cup having won the last game. I'd say overall though it would be more beneficial beating France away psychologically than beating England at home so I'll go for that fixture.

Final game, always the final warm-up game before the new season.

By the final game all the players will have shaken off the rust and be (hopefully) match fit and fully prepared. Being after the deadline for the squads to be confirmed, it will be a much more intense contest between two likely near full strength teams each needing momentum to take into the tournament.

In France, it will be a question of coaches experimenting with combinations, players still shaking of the rust and getting fully match sharp- I expect it to be less intense. Less meaningful- despite the opportunity to win in France, I don't expect a full-strength French side.

It's the first game since the end of last season for all of their players, they will be rusty and not quite match sharp, and if we win I imagine it will be exaggerated beyond what it actually means. Not as much as a Six Nations test over there because they probably won't be near the standard they can achieve.

biltongbek wrote:If they want to go into the world cup with unwavering confidence surely both

Of course I want both. It's just which game might be considered more important.

I think beating France away would be a bigger boost to Ireland, but losing to England at home would be a bigger blow to Ireland.

I think the last game is important, just look at the Six Nations this year. England won the Championship but got thrashed by Ireland in the last game, and now the questions are all "Are England that good?" If we had been thrashed by Ireland in the first game then bounced back to win the Championship, the Ireland game wouldn't get nearly as much press. Lose to England at home in your last game before the World Cup - especially with the recent record you have against us - and it could be damaging to your team's confidence.

No question, France.

France will probably play a strong side whilst at home and for Ireland to get their scalp will be a great confidence booster.... to challenge at the latter stages of the world cup you have to win under difficult, hostile circumstances.

France have only lost 4 matches at home since the RWC07.. only 1 was against NH opposition (Eng 08 6N I believe).

I personaly think/believe it is important to win both games...However if they cannot win both games then the last game of all is the most important one to win imo.

But i also believe it is important to lay down a marker in the first game, so even if you dont win that first game you atlease gave it 100% effort in the game it self.










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MBTGOG,

As I posted on the similar thread I agree and agree with maj, all teams must surely be looking to win their last game as they go to NZ on the back of a win.

It depends on how we line out. If we field the full 15 in France then,a win is vital for confidence. If it is a weak enough team for the England match I don't think it is as important.

So I'm going to go for England on the basis that it is our last warmup game and we need to go into the WC with some momentum unlike last time where we stumbled through the warm ups.

The England and France fixtures surely. I'd experiment a little bit against Scotland. Is your first world cup fixture against Autralia?

Ireland have USA up first.

I see. I remember England took them lightly in the last one and it didn't turn out too well... Ireland are in a better position to know which is their best team though, I think.

I'm not sure if we took them lightly, but we didn't get the bonus point (only 3 tries). I'm not sure if Ashton knew what the strongest team was, truth be told.

Our warm-ups were Wales (C team!) at home, and France home and away (we lost both matches). So not ideal preparations!

They are all important obviously but I think that beating france or at the very least putting in a very good display is more important. If we lose to england we can always say it was only a friendly and not that important and we already know we can beat them. But france nearly always beat us and we never seem to have the belief that we are going to win when we line up against them. It would be a bigger confidence boost imo, if we beat france.

I think the France game is more important to win. Like people have said, it would give Ireland such a psychological boost to win away from home with your strongest team. They could then use the England match to give the players (the ones who DC is undecided on) one last chance to prove to him that he should take them to NZ.

Neither.

Of course Ireland want to win every game but they haven't reached that level yet, so it's far more important to finalise the fitness programme and patterns of the squad. These are warm-ups after all and should be dispassionately viewed as such.

It would be psychologically debilitating should they lose either or both games with a supposed "first team". On the other hand it would be a big boost should they win either with an "experimental" team. Kidney must treat these games for what they are and the result taken completely in the RWC context.

They could then use the England match to give the players (the ones who DC is undecided on) one last chance to prove to him that he should take them to NZ.

Squad will already be selected by then.

MBTGOG wrote:

They could then use the England match to give the players (the ones who DC is undecided on) one last chance to prove to him that he should take them to NZ.

Squad will already be selected by then.

Exactly MBTGOG in which case you'd assume the first team will be playing against England. I'm not a psychologist so I don't know which would be more damaging mentally, but if the team playing England is more of a first team than the one against France, I'd say it's safe to assume that one is the one game you don't want to lose. However, I think the most important thing is we play to our potential and have good performances in all four games and not be acting like eejits like we were at the start of the six nations earlier in the year. If we're knocking on passes and giving away countless penalties it doesn't matter if we win against either France or England, we won't beat Australia or South Africa at the world cup.

If we're knocking on passes and giving away countless penalties

If we're giving away too many penalties, that certainly is a worry. The context of the knock ons though has to be taken into consideration because if it is during us being positive with ball in hand then I think that can be accepted.

MBTGOG wrote:

If we're knocking on passes and giving away countless penalties

If we're giving away too many penalties, that certainly is a worry. The context of the knock ons though has to be taken into consideration because if it is during us being positive with ball in hand then I think that can be accepted.

I take your point and would agree with it but if knock on's are happening frequently in all four games I think it would possibly cause a lack of belief amongst the players (question the game plan and themselves - not saying all players would but it's certainly possible. On the flip side they sorted it out during the six nations with a great performance against England on the last game so why wouldn't they be able to do so again). Obviously giving away penalties would be far more worrying though. Realistically we shouldn't have the same problems with penalties as we did during the six nations. The players have had more than enough time to cope with referees interpretations at this stage and I'd be very surprised if our penalty count was high.

I'd be surprised if there was problems with the hands all through the warm-ups. What's more important than catching the passes, is timing the passes and make the right decisions. That's what I'll be looking out for.

Yeah agreed MBTGOG. I think there's been a few example's over the last 12-18 months of us doing a mixture of those things wrong. South Africa and Scotland 2010 come to mind where we just played the wrong game and made poor decisions. I think we both agree that doing all of those things right and losing would be better than doing them wrong and winning these summer games though. Getting our players match fit and into some decent form should be the main target.

I think that it is imperative that England win the Dubs game in order to lay the beasts of the GS.

Imperative.

And the closer to the losing squad last time out the better. Probably only with Moody skippering the side.

Lay the beast of not having won in Dublin since 2003 you mean

You really don't understand the downside of rugby after a period of success Notch.

Don't get smug. It's not an eternal up escalator...

I'm only tweaking your nose Portnoys. I'm not being serious.

Notch wrote:I'm only tweaking your nose Portnoys. I'm not being serious.

So how important is it for Ireland to consolidate their superiority over England?

I think that the victors will go down under as the unofficial NH champs (unless England Flip* it up against Wales).

*I wonder which easy translation this will treat us with.

mrsuperclear wrote:Yeah agreed MBTGOG. I think there's been a few example's over the last 12-18 months of us doing a mixture of those things wrong. South Africa and Scotland 2010 come to mind where we just played the wrong game and made poor decisions. I think we both agree that doing all of those things right and losing would be better than doing them wrong and winning these summer games though. Getting our players match fit and into some decent form should be the main target.

Maybe so but only to a point. It might sound condescending but I won't countenance a loss to Scotland. I just don't think we should be losing to them.

Quite important, because of the timing of the game, but I think people will see whoever does best from the NH nations in the World Cup as the top dog going into the next Six Nations anyway. This will be soon forgotten after the big event is over.

I'm very proud of our recent home record against England and would love to see it maintained, of course. Just as they'd love to come over and end that run!

MBTGOG wrote:Maybe so but only to a point. It might sound condescending but I won't countenance a loss to Scotland. I just don't think we should be losing to them.

It might be condescending but it's also true if you compare the relative strength of our players and provinces/clubs. I would struggle to accept such a result as well, but if the team we put out has a mixture of youth (murray/jones), fringe players (ryan/buckley/mcfadden) and the returning injured (ferris/flannery/kearney), and like we discussed above that they put in a good performance but Scotland played out of their skin, then in those circumstances I could accept it.

Last WC campaign we took Scotland lightly in our last warm-up game and lost badly. That match is a good argument against an entirely shadow side. The team from that game;

Ireland: G Murphy; B Carney, B O'Driscoll (C), G Duffy, T Bowe; P Wallace, I Boss; B Young, J Flannery, S Best, P O'Connell, M O'Kelly, N Best, S Ferris, J Heaslip.
Replacements: R Best, J Hayes, A Quinlan, K Gleeson, E Reddan, R O'Gara, A Trimble.

Problem is, O'Sullivan threw in about 12 second choice players and then decided they were no use at all on the back of it. As it turned out they weren't much worse than the first team, but Kidney has to be much smarter in how he selects the team for this game.

Interesting reading; a few grew into real regulars in the four years since then (Bowe, Heaslip, Ferris and to a certain extent Paddy Wallace albeit not at 10) and others still fell off the map. The two Ulster props are no longer playing, and they were excellent together in 2006/7. Carney likewise, and Duffy and Boss aren;t really on Kidneys radar it seems.

That's really interesting looking at that team Notch (was Gavin Duffy really playing inside centre? God I must have blocked out the whole experience). I don't think Kidney would dare even consider playing a shadow side but he has said in a couple of interviews that no one is going to play all four games and very few will play three. It's therefore likely that the team will be a mixture of youth, fringe, injured and experienced. The trick is getting the right mixture which I'll leave Kidney to do because there's no way I'd be able to come up with the correct formula of which teams to play in the four games. I think if you take it that the England match and France away match are the most serious (and the one's the main boys will be in) then it would leave you to conclude the team for the Scotland match won't be the best one we put out in the next month however.

Yeah, it's going to be a very tricky balance. I agree re. Scotland- especially as the Ulster/Connacht/Exiles are a week ahead in pre-season on the Munster/Leinster guys.

But we need at least some experience. O'Connell and O'Driscoll can't play every game- but at least one of them must play and Captain in every game, with a core of experience around them.

This coming week will be interesting.

I think Ireland should concentrate on one game at a time. To be honest some of the comments here are for lack of a better word arrogant.

The last 3 times you have played Scotland the games have been very close with Ireland 2 games to 1 up. To be honest that record is far from inspiring. The last time you "felt like you should be beating Scotland" you were beaten at Croker and denied a triple crown.

For Fans/Posters who are normally level headed about their chances I think you guys should calm down a wee bit. For us Scots, beating you in our warm up is very important, and if you guys show up this weekend with an attitude that it's an unimportant game that you "should win" I think/hope you'll get a big shock.

Quite right, Radge, very surprised at some of the remarks above regarding the Scotland vs Ireland fixture, almost like anything less than a victory is inconceivable. Perhaps I watched a different game back in March, but Ireland didn't look that far ahead - Scotland were woeful, shorn of confidence with a very limited gameplan, and frankly Ireland weren't that much better.

Ah well, all will be clear come Saturday evening - I'll be happy if I can see progress building on our last two 6Ns games. We'll give time to our youngsters, I imagine, and apparently there are certain players that won't be playing - Kelly Brown, Mike Blair, Chris Cusiter, Euan Murray and Nathan Hines. We also know that the 5 rested players will play, so that's Alan Jacobsen, Ross Ford, Richie Gray, Ali Kellock, & John Barclay.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Ireland should concentrate on one game at a time

I agree totally. I don't think we should be looking beyond this 1st game. I don't think the results are the be all and end all in these games and it's more important that we play some cohesive rugby and get our set piece functioning than grinding out results at all costs.

That said I would be concerned if we didn't win at least our home games although getting of to a winning start would take a bit of pressure off and 2 from 3 would be a good confidence boost.

I think people need to be realistic about the results and as long as we go into our final two games playing some decent stuff and with everyone fit and looking sharp then I'll be happy regardless of the results.

Scotland are a much better side than many think and this well be a very tough test particularly of our set piece and backrow.

Obviously this is COMPLETE speculation and will greatly change depending on results but I'd like to see something like:

Game 1 v Scotland:
Healy, Flannery, Ross
DOC, POC
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Reddan, Sexton
Wallace, O'Driscoll
Earls, Kearney, Bowe

Best, Court, Cullen, Wallace, O'Leary, O'Gara, Fitzgerald.

Game 2 v France
Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip, Jennings
O'Leary, Sexton
Wallace, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Court, Flannery, O'Callaghan, Leamy, Stringer, O'Gara, Kearney

Game 3 v France
Court, Best, Buckley
O'Callaghan, Cullen
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace
Reddan, O'Gara
McFadden, Earls
Trimble, Jones, Fitzgerald

Healy, Hayes, Cronin, Ryan, Leamy, Murray, Wallace

Game 4 v England
Healy, Best, Ross
DOC, POC
Ryan, Heaslip, Wallace
Reddan, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Court, Flannery, Ferris, Stringer, O'Gara, McFadden, Jones

With the idea of using the Scotland match to integrate returning players to a winning team, using the first French game to claim a big pyschological win, using the second French game to try some new things and the final game against England to go with a strong side and hope to finish on a high.

Obviously things will change on fitness and results but I'd imagine thats a good combo.

red_stag wrote:Obviously this is COMPLETE speculation and will greatly change depending on results but I'd like to see something like:

Game 1 v Scotland:
Healy, Flannery, Ross
DOC, POC
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Reddan, Sexton
Wallace, O'Driscoll
Earls, Kearney, Bowe

Best, Court, Cullen, Wallace, O'Leary, O'Gara, Fitzgerald.

Game 2 v France
Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip, Jennings
O'Leary, Sexton
Wallace, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Court, Flannery, O'Callaghan, Leamy, Stringer, O'Gara, Kearney

Game 3 v France
Court, Best, Buckley
O'Callaghan, Cullen
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace
Reddan, O'Gara
McFadden, Earls
Trimble, Jones, Fitzgerald

Healy, Hayes, Cronin, Ryan, Leamy, Murray, Wallace

Game 4 v England
Healy, Best, Ross
DOC, POC
Ryan, Heaslip, Wallace
Reddan, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Court, Flannery, Ferris, Stringer, O'Gara, McFadden, Jones

With the idea of using the Scotland match to integrate returning players to a winning team, using the first French game to claim a big pyschological win, using the second French game to try some new things and the final game against England to go with a strong side and hope to finish on a high.

Obviously things will change on fitness and results but I'd imagine thats a good combo.

Presumptious?

No its no presumptious Asbo. In fact its a compliment to Scotland. Our last match was a comfy win against England i.e. the one that played against England was a winning team.

I would propose taking that team to start with and adding in maybe 3-4 players coming back from injury. Don't try anything wild against Scotland. Just keep the team we had with a few returning from injury.

I obviously explained it wrong but I meant integrate this guys INTO a winning team. Not to integrate them and simply win the game.

red_stag wrote:No its no presumptious Asbo. In fact its a compliment to Scotland. Our last match was a comfy win against England i.e. the one that played against England was a winning team.

I would propose taking that team to start with and adding in maybe 3-4 players coming back from injury. Don't try anything wild against Scotland. Just keep the team we had with a few returning from injury.

OK, I see, I get you know, you were taking about a 'winning team' from the standpoint of the last match (England) rather than Saturday's game?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

red_stag wrote:No its no presumptious Asbo. In fact its a compliment to Scotland. Our last match was a comfy win against England i.e. the one that played against England was a winning team.

I would propose taking that team to start with and adding in maybe 3-4 players coming back from injury. Don't try anything wild against Scotland. Just keep the team we had with a few returning from injury.

OK, I see, I get you know, you were taking about a 'winning team' from the standpoint of the last match (England) rather than Saturday's game?

Yea exactly

I'm not being arrogant. Well I don't think so. I think we should be semi-finalists at the world cup, so we should be beating Scotland.

MBTGOG wrote:I'm not being arrogant. Well I don't think so. I think we should be semi-finalists at the world cup, so we should be beating Scotland.

Despite failing to get out of your group in the last world cup? I would say that's a pretty bold assumption. To also think you should beat Scotland is another comment that smacks of arrogance. Especialy when the last 3 games between us were as close as they were.

2009
Scotland 15-22 Ireland

2010
Ireland 20-23 Scotland

2011
Scotland 18-21 Ireland

Lets face it, no win was convincing amongst our last 3 encounters. Ergo to say "we should be beating Scotland" is a crazy statement to make when you have failed to convincingly beat us for 3 years. Scotland and Ireland games are always good to watch and far closer than you are giving us credit for.

I just hope players in the Ireland camp have the same mindset as you MBTGOG, if they are they will be in for a fright.

Ireland have always struggled against Scotland,Radge. I think we should beat Scotland and if we have ambitions to go far in the tournament we have to win.

Notch wrote:Lay the beast of not having won in Dublin since 2003 you mean

Err...

England have won the right to host the 2015 Rugby World Cup.
Votes were cast in Dublin today...

England have won... in Dublin.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I'm not being arrogant. Well I don't think so. I think we should be semi-finalists at the world cup, so we should be beating Scotland.

Despite failing to get out of your group in the last world cup? I would say that's a pretty bold assumption.

Ireland was in a group, one (France) of which was playing at home and knocked out the ABs, another team (Argentina) came 3rd in the Tournament and Simon Best collapsed and was hospitalised with a heart complaint that finished his rugby career (with his brother playing in the team). That must have really rocked a few of them going into a match.

Hopefully, Ireland will have a bit of luck this time, because we were very unlucky to get drawn in the same group as the hosts and arguably, the team of the tournament. With a bit more depth, Argentina could have won it - they just got worn out towards the end.

Radge,

Do you think you should be beating us in this match?

Radge, Scotland aren't at Irelands level yet IMO. They claim scalps rather than being a consistent team. For me thats the reason I would expect us to win. They can of course but I think they aren't that good yet. In an Ireland v Scotland game they would be underdogs.

Bit like Ireland v South Africa. I think we can beat them. We have a good results against them. However I accept we would be underdogs against them.

I don't think we should be beating anyone. I hope we can beat Ireland and perhaps we have enough ability to do so then again perhaps not.

I don't take any rugby match as a game Scotland or Edinburgh for that matter should win. Last year at the 6N I thought at half time we should have beaten Wales.....look that that got me.

Ireland have advantages in the backs and I would say Scotland have a Very slight advantage in the forwards. Other than that I can't say for any certainty what will happen on Saturday, I know Ireland will be missing some big names as too will Scotland. The one thing I know for sure is it will be a very close run thing.