England Squad Update (Players released)
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formerly known as Sam
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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England Squad Update (Players released)
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/other/126508508.html
It has been announced that the following players have been released:
Joe Worsley, George Chuter, Thomas Waldron, David Strettle and James Simpson-Daniel.
So the picture becomes a bit clearer. The three hookers going will be Steve Thompson, Dylan Hartley and Lee Mears.
It has been announced that the following players have been released:
Joe Worsley, George Chuter, Thomas Waldron, David Strettle and James Simpson-Daniel.
So the picture becomes a bit clearer. The three hookers going will be Steve Thompson, Dylan Hartley and Lee Mears.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
Join date : 2011-01-28
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,12321_7075798,00.html
Also reported here. Little suprised both Strettle and JSD have been cut, would have thought one would have gone. Maybe Johnno feels that Sharples is the one who deserves a chance in the friendlies. Shame for Chuter I doubt he'll get another cap now. Waldrom obviously didn't impress in the behind closed doors friendly.
Also reported here. Little suprised both Strettle and JSD have been cut, would have thought one would have gone. Maybe Johnno feels that Sharples is the one who deserves a chance in the friendlies. Shame for Chuter I doubt he'll get another cap now. Waldrom obviously didn't impress in the behind closed doors friendly.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
Join date : 2011-07-13
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Location : Leicestershire
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Tim Payne still in there!
Agree with the drops (Waldrom is the one I possibly would have kept, but I haven't seen what they've been doing in training), but would have possibly axed 1 or 2 more.
Agree with the drops (Waldrom is the one I possibly would have kept, but I haven't seen what they've been doing in training), but would have possibly axed 1 or 2 more.
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Waldrom didnt play in the training game - calf injury
Strettle was injured too - maybe its serious!
I guess with JSD and Stretts out that leaves Banerhan, Monye, Sharples as backup wings.
Chuter out - no real loss there.
Strettle was injured too - maybe its serious!
I guess with JSD and Stretts out that leaves Banerhan, Monye, Sharples as backup wings.
Chuter out - no real loss there.
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
Join date : 2011-06-01
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Strettle was injured in the same training session as Lawes wasn't he? Maybe he is hasn't recovered from it.
Gah Timothy Payne.
Gah Timothy Payne.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Shocked at Strettle and JSD I would have played both of them in one of the warm up matches.
All the rest are agreeable, might of liked to have peep at the Tank but he was never really in contention to get on the plane unless there was an injury.
Do you know if they are released just for this weeks game or completely from the squad?
All the rest are agreeable, might of liked to have peep at the Tank but he was never really in contention to get on the plane unless there was an injury.
Do you know if they are released just for this weeks game or completely from the squad?
Manu's Boxing Coach- Posts : 383
Join date : 2011-06-01
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
He hasn't axed any of the props yet. There are seven in the team;
LHs;Corbs, Sheridan, Payne
THs;Cole, PDJ
Both;Wilson, Stevens
Out of those seven Payne is clearly not going to make the squad and I would imagine that Corbs and one of Wilson and PDJ won't either.
LHs;Corbs, Sheridan, Payne
THs;Cole, PDJ
Both;Wilson, Stevens
Out of those seven Payne is clearly not going to make the squad and I would imagine that Corbs and one of Wilson and PDJ won't either.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
Join date : 2011-07-13
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:Shocked at Strettle and JSD I would have played both of them in one of the warm up matches.
All the rest are agreeable, might of liked to have peep at the Tank but he was never really in contention to get on the plane unless there was an injury.
Do you know if they are released just for this weeks game or completely from the squad?
Good point - I just assumed it was dropped from the WC squad!
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
What wingers are being selected ?
munkian- Posts : 8456
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I would have taken JSD
BATH_BTGOG- Posts : 875
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Yeah Im awaiting for clarification if thats not in the squad for the first warm up game or fully dropped from the training sqaud.
No great shock about most of them, maybe Waldrom and Strettle but if they have been carrying injuries less so.
Sharples is the wildcard winger it seems, but with Cueto, Ashton, Armitage (only full back cover there is, means a free pass on the plane) and Banahan certain to make the squad he may well be surplus to requirements in the end anyway.
No great shock about most of them, maybe Waldrom and Strettle but if they have been carrying injuries less so.
Sharples is the wildcard winger it seems, but with Cueto, Ashton, Armitage (only full back cover there is, means a free pass on the plane) and Banahan certain to make the squad he may well be surplus to requirements in the end anyway.
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler- Posts : 10344
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
munkian wrote:What wingers are being selected ?
Mark Cueto, Ugo Monye, Chris Ashton, Charlie Sharples and Matt Banahan (covering centre)
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Oops forgot about Monye, I guess Sharples is competing with him for a place on the plane.
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler- Posts : 10344
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Cumbrian wrote:munkian wrote:What wingers are being selected ?
Mark Cueto, Ugo Monye, Chris Ashton, Charlie Sharples and Matt Banahan (covering centre)
Cool, interesting. No Cueto replacement found yet then ?
munkian- Posts : 8456
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Typical BBC Sport saying Worsley won't be going to the World cup whilst showing a picture of Ben Cohen
BATH_BTGOG- Posts : 875
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I have no problems at all with these players getting dropped in fact im pretty chuffed about Waldrom and Chuter going, JSD and Strettle are two of the most injury prone players in England (not what you need happening in a world cup) so I could see why Johnson would drop them especially if they havent been amazing in training.
Meflanker- Posts : 70
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Will they pick Armitage as a winger as well as FB meaning they will be able to fit in an extra centre Tuilagi maybe? Who can also cover the wing position. If that is the case just might worry about lack of pace on the wings.
Manu's Boxing Coach- Posts : 383
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I would assume that they are cut completely. We don't need to retain 7 props for one game!
Looking at back three options, I would only have room for 5 - and I wouldn't be taking Banahan as a centre (unless Tuilagi doesn't make the squad). So I would be taking Ashton, Banahan, Cueto, Foden and one other. Cueto can cover full-back, so I wouldn't have Armitage as a guaranteed spot, so it would be between Monye, Sharples and Armitage for the last place.
Maybe start Banahan in the centres with the first choice back 3 in the first Wales game, then give Monye, Sharples and Armitage a game en masse in the second Wales game to see how they all go?
Looking at back three options, I would only have room for 5 - and I wouldn't be taking Banahan as a centre (unless Tuilagi doesn't make the squad). So I would be taking Ashton, Banahan, Cueto, Foden and one other. Cueto can cover full-back, so I wouldn't have Armitage as a guaranteed spot, so it would be between Monye, Sharples and Armitage for the last place.
Maybe start Banahan in the centres with the first choice back 3 in the first Wales game, then give Monye, Sharples and Armitage a game en masse in the second Wales game to see how they all go?
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
munkian wrote:Cumbrian wrote:munkian wrote:What wingers are being selected ?
Mark Cueto, Ugo Monye, Chris Ashton, Charlie Sharples and Matt Banahan (covering centre)
Cool, interesting. No Cueto replacement found yet then ?
To be honest, I suspect this will be he last few games of his international career. I've been a big fan of his, but even Stevie Wonder could see that his pace has gone now. It may not be the only requirement for a wing but his try scoring rate is starting to count against him now too. The lad Sharples is going the right way about being his long term replacement, been impressive for Gloucester and has real poachers look about him.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Cool, interesting. No Cueto replacement found yet then ?
As soon as they find an alternative wing with a kicking game I think it will be curtains. Need a tactical kicker on the wing as currently neither centre can and neither can Foden can kick to a precise enough degree.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
robbo277 wrote:I would assume that they are cut completely. We don't need to retain 7 props for one game!
Looking at back three options, I would only have room for 5 - and I wouldn't be taking Banahan as a centre (unless Tuilagi doesn't make the squad). So I would be taking Ashton, Banahan, Cueto, Foden and one other. Cueto can cover full-back, so I wouldn't have Armitage as a guaranteed spot, so it would be between Monye, Sharples and Armitage for the last place.
Maybe start Banahan in the centres with the first choice back 3 in the first Wales game, then give Monye, Sharples and Armitage a game en masse in the second Wales game to see how they all go?
I suspect Armitage will go due to his ability to play outside centre as well as full back and wing, plus he has international experience, and if he finds his best form again, has a better all round game than Monye or Sharples.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Not too surprised by most of the guys let go - I thought though the squad was going to be trimmed to 39 before the warm up games, but we are still at 40, and seem to have a surfeit of prop forwards. Pretty sure Payne won't go, but wonder if there's a bit of an injury to one of the other loose heads that is keeping him with the squad for a bit longer.
dummy_half- Posts : 6497
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I suspect Armitage will go due to his ability to play outside centre as well as full back and wing, plus he has international experience, and if he finds his best form again, has a better all round game than Monye or Sharples..
Big if though. He hasn't shown form in the last 6 months and has managed two substantial bans which were completely stupid and down to him acting the fool. I'm an Armitage fan but he is clinging on to his place in the squad based on versatility and former glories he needs a big performance soon. I fancy Sharples might go as he is a great finisher.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Yes can confirm Thomas Waldrom out with a guilty conscience and questionable qualification credentials.
TheGreyGhost- Posts : 2531
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Bahahahah! Wish that was the case GG.
Effervescing Elephant- Posts : 1629
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Rumour has it the MJ has put another 7 members of the squad into isolation in case it's contagious.
TheGreyGhost- Posts : 2531
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I get the feeling that Sharples staying in there is with half an eye on the team moving forward, although there shouldn't be anyone in this squad just based on the future.
I wouldn't be overly-comfortable with Armitage at OC or wing, but more than I would be with Monye at OC or full-back (lest we forget the 2009 AIs!) and as far as I know Sharples is only a wing, so Armitage only edges the versatility stakes for me. What is really important would be his International experience and the fact that there are already 3 wingers in the squad and only 1 full-back, so a specialist full-back could be more valuable. However, with only one specialist number 8 (and cover from flankers who can play 8) in the England squad, I think Johnson would be comfortable taking only Foden as a specialist full-back (with covers from wingers who can play full-back).
Armitage would be in the driver's seat at the moment, but if Sharples or Monye get a start against Wales and really cut loose, then I don't think it is unthinkable that one of them would get the nod.
Dummyhalf
I heard 39 as well, and as you say with the 7 props all still in the squad, one of them might be carrying a knock.
Here's a question for everyone though, would you look to give all 40 players a run-out in the first 2 games? Unless he does something unorthodox with the bench, he can't give all 7 props a run, but other than that would you try and get all the guys a game?
I wouldn't be overly-comfortable with Armitage at OC or wing, but more than I would be with Monye at OC or full-back (lest we forget the 2009 AIs!) and as far as I know Sharples is only a wing, so Armitage only edges the versatility stakes for me. What is really important would be his International experience and the fact that there are already 3 wingers in the squad and only 1 full-back, so a specialist full-back could be more valuable. However, with only one specialist number 8 (and cover from flankers who can play 8) in the England squad, I think Johnson would be comfortable taking only Foden as a specialist full-back (with covers from wingers who can play full-back).
Armitage would be in the driver's seat at the moment, but if Sharples or Monye get a start against Wales and really cut loose, then I don't think it is unthinkable that one of them would get the nod.
Dummyhalf
I heard 39 as well, and as you say with the 7 props all still in the squad, one of them might be carrying a knock.
Here's a question for everyone though, would you look to give all 40 players a run-out in the first 2 games? Unless he does something unorthodox with the bench, he can't give all 7 props a run, but other than that would you try and get all the guys a game?
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
"If he finds his best form again......" if I got a pound for every single time someone said that I would be able to pay off the global deficit and have some money to spare! Exaggeration of course but you get the message.
Armitage and Flutey are two peas in a pod. Both still living on their glory days (2009). Both get picked for England despite doing little to deserve it. Supposedly being the experienced options despite both having less than 20 England caps. It is 2011, not 2009. Remember that everyone!
I hate all this double standard rubbish. E.g. it's alright to pick Manu and Sharples but not ok to pick the two best inside centres in the AP or other players from a certain club because they lack the so called experience.
Armitage and Flutey are two peas in a pod. Both still living on their glory days (2009). Both get picked for England despite doing little to deserve it. Supposedly being the experienced options despite both having less than 20 England caps. It is 2011, not 2009. Remember that everyone!
I hate all this double standard rubbish. E.g. it's alright to pick Manu and Sharples but not ok to pick the two best inside centres in the AP or other players from a certain club because they lack the so called experience.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
formerly known as Sam wrote:I suspect Armitage will go due to his ability to play outside centre as well as full back and wing, plus he has international experience, and if he finds his best form again, has a better all round game than Monye or Sharples..
Big if though. He hasn't shown form in the last 6 months and has managed two substantial bans which were completely stupid and down to him acting the fool. I'm an Armitage fan but he is clinging on to his place in the squad based on versatility and former glories he needs a big performance soon. I fancy Sharples might go as he is a great finisher.
And leave England with no fullback cover?
I just dont see it happening. If Banhan goes as a center then theres room for Sharples/Monye, Armitage, Foden, Ashton, Cueto as the back 3 options.
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler- Posts : 10344
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
beshocked wrote:"If he finds his best form again......" if I got a pound for every single time someone said that I would be able to pay off the global deficit and have some money to spare! Exaggeration of course but you get the message.
Armitage and Flutey are two peas in a pod. Both still living on their glory days (2009). Both get picked for England despite doing little to deserve it. Supposedly being the experienced options despite both having less than 20 England caps. It is 2011, not 2009. Remember that everyone!
I hate all this double standard rubbish. E.g. it's alright to pick Manu and Sharples but not ok to pick the two best inside centres in the AP or other players from a certain club because they lack the so called experience.
Flutey isn't the problem Hape is and completely agree with Barrit and I think you are referring to Allen? Barrit was extremely good against the Maori last summer and surprised he hasnt got a look in since.
Hape has not shown any potential at International level when both Flutey and Armitage have even if it was in 2009.
Manu's Boxing Coach- Posts : 383
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Peter Seabiscuit that's what happens when you don't pick either Goode,Abendanon or Brown - 3 of the best FBs in the AP.
AP form supposedly means absolutely nothing to some people including of course MJ and his coaches!
How is Banahan a centre? How many games has he played there? 2?
Manu yes I am referring to Allen and Barritt. Flutey is like Armitage. What's the difference?
Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?
Why pick someone based on games 2 years ago?
AP form supposedly means absolutely nothing to some people including of course MJ and his coaches!
How is Banahan a centre? How many games has he played there? 2?
Manu yes I am referring to Allen and Barritt. Flutey is like Armitage. What's the difference?
Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?
Why pick someone based on games 2 years ago?
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
And leave England with no fullback cover?
Cueto can cover in an emergency and then if Foden's injury is serious you send him back to blighty and bring someone else out as a replacement.
Peter Seabiscuit that's what happens when you don't pick either Goode,Abendanon or Brown - 3 of the best FBs in the AP.
Abendanon struggled to hang on to his shirt this season he is certainly not one of the best in the AP. I'd rather take Armitage, I at least trust him to tackle and not get turned over and the hint of contact.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
beshocked wrote:Peter Seabiscuit that's what happens when you don't pick either Goode,Abendanon or Brown - 3 of the best FBs in the AP.
AP form supposedly means absolutely nothing to some people including of course MJ and his coaches!
How is Banahan a centre? How many games has he played there? 2?
Manu yes I am referring to Allen and Barritt. Flutey is like Armitage. What's the difference?
Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?
Why pick someone based on games 2 years ago?
AP form doesn't mean nothing, but it isn't the be-all and end-all. What did either Barritt or Allen do of note in the Heineken Cup? International experience and consistency of selection are also important, otherwise we'd see a different team every week!
Banahan is a versatile back, covering inside centre, outside centre and wing. He's played 2 games at inside centre but a host more at outside centre and most of his professional career at wing.
Barritt was taken to Australia last year, but wasn't persevered with. I don't know why, but he isn't just being completely ignored, the England team management have had a look at him and, for the moment at least, have said no thanks. Allen is the one who should feel most aggrieved, but there isn't room for everyone who's had a decent Premiership season in the squad!
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
What Robbo277 said.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
robbo277 wrote:beshocked wrote:Peter Seabiscuit that's what happens when you don't pick either Goode,Abendanon or Brown - 3 of the best FBs in the AP.
AP form supposedly means absolutely nothing to some people including of course MJ and his coaches!
How is Banahan a centre? How many games has he played there? 2?
Manu yes I am referring to Allen and Barritt. Flutey is like Armitage. What's the difference?
Would you pick Matthew Tait at outside centre?
Why pick someone based on games 2 years ago?
AP form doesn't mean nothing, but it isn't the be-all and end-all. What did either Barritt or Allen do of note in the Heineken Cup? International experience and consistency of selection are also important, otherwise we'd see a different team every week!
Banahan is a versatile back, covering inside centre, outside centre and wing. He's played 2 games at inside centre but a host more at outside centre and most of his professional career at wing.
Barritt was taken to Australia last year, but wasn't persevered with. I don't know why, but he isn't just being completely ignored, the England team management have had a look at him and, for the moment at least, have said no thanks. Allen is the one who should feel most aggrieved, but there isn't room for everyone who's had a decent Premiership season in the squad!
I understand what you are saying, but if I felt like being facetious I might counter with....'But there is enough room for a number of players who had very poor seasons?'. I really can't be bothered getting into this debate again though. I think we all believe there are inconsistencies/ errors in selection, but we are going round in circles. As you suggest I think we'd be better accepting the fact and moving on.
Cumbrian- Posts : 5656
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
AP form is important. If not then why did Foden,Cole,Youngs,Ashton etc get picked? Was it their HC form? No it is was their good form in the AP. It is hardly as if we have strength in depth in the centres either.
Unsurprisingly at one point they all had no England caps! Have they all been successful? Yes. It doesn't take a genius to work out that picking the best players will lead to success.
Why do people praise Manu and Sharples? Was it their AP form? Sorry what exactly they have done in the HC or on the international scene?
I would pick them because I believe in picking on form.
Double standards from people like you Robbo and MJ.
Banahan supposedly covers but you actually want him anywhere near the side bar possibly on the wing? He has how much experience in the centres? Virtually none as you say.
Next you'll be telling me Monye can cover full back.
The England team management are obviously incompetent but I knew that already.
Unsurprisingly at one point they all had no England caps! Have they all been successful? Yes. It doesn't take a genius to work out that picking the best players will lead to success.
Why do people praise Manu and Sharples? Was it their AP form? Sorry what exactly they have done in the HC or on the international scene?
I would pick them because I believe in picking on form.
Double standards from people like you Robbo and MJ.
Banahan supposedly covers but you actually want him anywhere near the side bar possibly on the wing? He has how much experience in the centres? Virtually none as you say.
Next you'll be telling me Monye can cover full back.
The England team management are obviously incompetent but I knew that already.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
What did either Barritt or Allen do of note in the Heineken Cup?
Well Allen closed out ever 12 he played against and when partnered with Manu managed to cancel out one of the best international centre partnerships in the NH. D'Arcy did nothing all day with Allen marking him out of the game, Manu did a similar job on BOD. If they can keep those two down whilst they have good ball then only NZ have centres that will present greater problems.
Barritt was part of the Sarries team that beat Racing Metro (once or twice?) and pushed Leinster mightily close. Wasn't a season for Barritt to shine what with the kick and chase strategy following on from the pick and mix assortment at ten (Goode and Hougaard change over made it difficult for the midfield to settle early doors).
If not then why did Foden,Cole,Youngs,Ashton etc get picked? Was it their HC form? No it is was their good form in the AP
Foden and Ashton managed to rip a few teams apart in the HEC and were a constant thorn in everybodies side including Leinsters. Youngs helped Tigers beat the Scarlets at the Parc with a brilliant performance and he generally did a good job right through the group stages. Cole did a job in every scrum including getting a couple over the Leinster front row at the scrum (no mean feat that one).
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Sam All those examples were after Foden,Ashton,Cole etc were picked for England for their first cap.
I can understand differing ways. I would personally pick in form players. Seems like you are the same Sam.
Some people mentioning no names enjoy continually picking out of form and mediocre players. Would they have picked the likes of Foden,Ashton for their first caps etc? Who knows?
I can understand differing ways. I would personally pick in form players. Seems like you are the same Sam.
Some people mentioning no names enjoy continually picking out of form and mediocre players. Would they have picked the likes of Foden,Ashton for their first caps etc? Who knows?
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Martin Johnson has identified a number of players who will be in his squad, because he has called up to the International team and has deemed them good enough. These are:
Sheridan, Cole, Wilson, Doran-Jones, Corbisiero, Payne
Hartley, Thompson, Mears, Chuter
Shaw, Deacon, Lawes, Palmer
Croft, Wood, Haskell, Moody, Fourie, Worsley, Easter
Youngs, Care
Flood, Wilkinson, Hodgson
Hape, Flutey, Tindall
Ashton, Cueto, Banahan, Monye
Foden, Armitage
And these guys were going to be picked in the World Cup squad regardless of whether they were on form or not. This is the International experience/consistency of selection aspect.
Then there is room for some form players. Matt Stevens is a perfect example. The guy is internationally experienced, but he hadn't played for 2 years. He played 6 months of rugby with Sarries and the Saxons and got into the England team on the back of good performances in the Premiership and in the Churchill Cup.
Then you have players like Botha, Robshaw, Waldrom, Simpson, Wigglesworth, Tuilagi, Sharples, Strettle and Simpson-Daniel who were called up off the back of good club seasons. Botha in particular was an absolute wildcard in my opinion, I didn't even expect him to be called up to the Saxons. These are the form picks.
Johnson then looks at all the guys in training and cuts the squad down.
Don't accuse me of "double standards" just because I have a rational viewpoint on how Johnson has picked his squad. I've already explained to you that had I been in charge of England for 3 years that Allen would have had a shot by now and Barritt could well have been called up this summer.
Don't put words in my mouth either, saying "next you'll be telling me..." it's called a slippery slope argument and it is a very poor way of arguing. Are you telling me Banahan doesn't have the attributes to play as a centre? He's played there a bit and can cover there. I would give him a go in the centres, but he would go as a winger for me who can cover centre.
Sheridan, Cole, Wilson, Doran-Jones, Corbisiero, Payne
Hartley, Thompson, Mears, Chuter
Shaw, Deacon, Lawes, Palmer
Croft, Wood, Haskell, Moody, Fourie, Worsley, Easter
Youngs, Care
Flood, Wilkinson, Hodgson
Hape, Flutey, Tindall
Ashton, Cueto, Banahan, Monye
Foden, Armitage
And these guys were going to be picked in the World Cup squad regardless of whether they were on form or not. This is the International experience/consistency of selection aspect.
Then there is room for some form players. Matt Stevens is a perfect example. The guy is internationally experienced, but he hadn't played for 2 years. He played 6 months of rugby with Sarries and the Saxons and got into the England team on the back of good performances in the Premiership and in the Churchill Cup.
Then you have players like Botha, Robshaw, Waldrom, Simpson, Wigglesworth, Tuilagi, Sharples, Strettle and Simpson-Daniel who were called up off the back of good club seasons. Botha in particular was an absolute wildcard in my opinion, I didn't even expect him to be called up to the Saxons. These are the form picks.
Johnson then looks at all the guys in training and cuts the squad down.
Don't accuse me of "double standards" just because I have a rational viewpoint on how Johnson has picked his squad. I've already explained to you that had I been in charge of England for 3 years that Allen would have had a shot by now and Barritt could well have been called up this summer.
Don't put words in my mouth either, saying "next you'll be telling me..." it's called a slippery slope argument and it is a very poor way of arguing. Are you telling me Banahan doesn't have the attributes to play as a centre? He's played there a bit and can cover there. I would give him a go in the centres, but he would go as a winger for me who can cover centre.
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
formerly known as Sam wrote:Cool, interesting. No Cueto replacement found yet then ?
As soon as they find an alternative wing with a kicking game I think it will be curtains. Need a tactical kicker on the wing as currently neither centre can and neither can Foden can kick to a precise enough degree.
Monye has a very good kicking game - at least as solid as Cueto's anyway! That's one of the traits that prompted him to be selected at 15 - although that experiment didnt go so well.
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
beshocked wrote:Sam All those examples were after Foden,Ashton,Cole etc were picked for England for their first cap.
I can understand differing ways. I would personally pick in form players. Seems like you are the same Sam.
Some people mentioning no names enjoy continually picking out of form and mediocre players. Would they have picked the likes of Foden,Ashton for their first caps etc? Who knows?
Yes. I would have. So did Martin Johnson, who you also accused of "double standards" and not picking on form.
You cite players who have been brought in and taken to the International game. Johnson has looked at Allen and looked at Barritt and decided that either they're not good enough for International rugby, they're not ready for International rugby or they don't fit in with the way he wants his team to play.
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I know robbo it's a depressing looking squad. So many mediocre/out of form/ out of date players. It's a rubbish squad except in areas where form players have been picked. Consistency I agree. Consistently mediocre.
Can't really compare Stevens to Flutey or Armitage as he has as many if not more England caps than both combined. As you say he is in good form and he covers both sides of the scrum.
Strettle was in the EPS before surely as he came on against Ireland.
What's the point of picking new people in areas like the backrow,wings and 2nd row where new blood isn't needed as much?
Inside centre and no 8 are two of our greatest weaknesses. England picks foreign journeyman in both. How will that help?
You might call MJ's selection rational. I call it idiotic. So much mediocrity and massive holes. If we lose Foden and Easter we are in deep trouble.
With Banahan seeing is believing. Is it really best to trial him at centre in an international rather than playing an actual centre?
Robbo my point is why can MJ not continue to constantly pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS? Is it too difficult for him to understand?
If MJ thinks Allen and Barritt aren't better than Hape and Flutey then he is a bloody idiot quite frankly.
Can't really compare Stevens to Flutey or Armitage as he has as many if not more England caps than both combined. As you say he is in good form and he covers both sides of the scrum.
Strettle was in the EPS before surely as he came on against Ireland.
What's the point of picking new people in areas like the backrow,wings and 2nd row where new blood isn't needed as much?
Inside centre and no 8 are two of our greatest weaknesses. England picks foreign journeyman in both. How will that help?
You might call MJ's selection rational. I call it idiotic. So much mediocrity and massive holes. If we lose Foden and Easter we are in deep trouble.
With Banahan seeing is believing. Is it really best to trial him at centre in an international rather than playing an actual centre?
Robbo my point is why can MJ not continue to constantly pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS? Is it too difficult for him to understand?
If MJ thinks Allen and Barritt aren't better than Hape and Flutey then he is a bloody idiot quite frankly.
Last edited by beshocked on Mon 01 Aug 2011, 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.
screamingaddabs- Posts : 999
Join date : 2011-02-23
Age : 39
Location : Glasgow and Edinburgh (Work and Home)
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
screamingaddabs wrote:I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.
Not sure if he is fast enough but he did seem quicker than before. Andy Gomarsall certainly went on about him being quicker on one game I watched where he was commentating (same info as yours). Still would have gone with Goode before either him or Armitage though, like Armitage he needs to work on his temperament before I would be happy watching him play for England again.
B91212- Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Canada
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
You say we don't need new people in the back row, then say we need a number 8.
You say we pick a foreign journeyman at 8, but he was named Supporters Player of the Year and Newcomer of the Year at Leicester Tigers for his Premiership Form (your one selection criteria).
New blood isn't needed at second row? We had 3 locks in our Six Nations squad (with Lawes injured) all over 30 (Shaw being 37) and the youngest of whom (Deacon) has long-term back problems.
This is what happens if you want to pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS. You get confused selections that change every week as form rises and falls. You get players who aren't going to cut it at International level being picked just because they're on a good run at AP level.
With the World Cup just 3 games away, Martin Johnson can't gamble too much on too many players. Picking Allen, Barritt, Tindall and Tuilagi (with Banahan covering ) as your 4 centres means you are just 1 injury to 1 injury prone player from having a centre partnership with a maximum of 2 test caps.
The point about Banahan is I'm picking him as a winger who can cover centre. Not as a centre. Like I'll say Tuilagi can play wing in an emergancy, but I would pick him as a centre that can cover wing. These things are useful things to consider when you start to think about match day 22s. Allen and Barritt can't cover wing so aren't in direct competition with Banahan for a squad place.
You say we pick a foreign journeyman at 8, but he was named Supporters Player of the Year and Newcomer of the Year at Leicester Tigers for his Premiership Form (your one selection criteria).
New blood isn't needed at second row? We had 3 locks in our Six Nations squad (with Lawes injured) all over 30 (Shaw being 37) and the youngest of whom (Deacon) has long-term back problems.
This is what happens if you want to pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS. You get confused selections that change every week as form rises and falls. You get players who aren't going to cut it at International level being picked just because they're on a good run at AP level.
With the World Cup just 3 games away, Martin Johnson can't gamble too much on too many players. Picking Allen, Barritt, Tindall and Tuilagi (with Banahan covering ) as your 4 centres means you are just 1 injury to 1 injury prone player from having a centre partnership with a maximum of 2 test caps.
The point about Banahan is I'm picking him as a winger who can cover centre. Not as a centre. Like I'll say Tuilagi can play wing in an emergancy, but I would pick him as a centre that can cover wing. These things are useful things to consider when you start to think about match day 22s. Allen and Barritt can't cover wing so aren't in direct competition with Banahan for a squad place.
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
screamingaddabs wrote:I keep hearing Brown mentioned every now and then. I hear he went to Margot Wells to learn to not be a slow sack of sh1$*. Is he actually vaguely fast enough for international level now? Previously I thought he was way too slow to ever make it at the highest level.
No is the simple answer.
Last season he certianly appears to have found an extra bit of pace and all credit to him for the work. The difference is that he now sometimes gets caught when he has a run rather than getting caught all the time. All Brown brings to the international table is a big boot.
The problem is finding adequate cover in the same leage as Foden - other AP players just arent there yet!
Other options -
Abendanon - defensive frailty
Alex Goode - young-inexperienced (is he a 10 or 15)
Armitage - poor temperment
Matt Tait - Tigers convert to 15 (maybe one for the future)
Who else is there?
Homer from LI seems to be one for the future
Chisholm from the Quins youth
propdavid_london- Posts : 3546
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
robbo277 wrote:I get the feeling that Sharples staying in there is with half an eye on the team moving forward, although there shouldn't be anyone in this squad just based on the future.
I wouldn't be overly-comfortable with Armitage at OC or wing, but more than I would be with Monye at OC or full-back (lest we forget the 2009 AIs!) and as far as I know Sharples is only a wing, so Armitage only edges the versatility stakes for me. What is really important would be his International experience and the fact that there are already 3 wingers in the squad and only 1 full-back, so a specialist full-back could be more valuable. However, with only one specialist number 8 (and cover from flankers who can play 8) in the England squad, I think Johnson would be comfortable taking only Foden as a specialist full-back (with covers from wingers who can play full-back).
Armitage would be in the driver's seat at the moment, but if Sharples or Monye get a start against Wales and really cut loose, then I don't think it is unthinkable that one of them would get the nod.
Dummyhalf
I heard 39 as well, and as you say with the 7 props all still in the squad, one of them might be carrying a knock.
Here's a question for everyone though, would you look to give all 40 players a run-out in the first 2 games? Unless he does something unorthodox with the bench, he can't give all 7 props a run, but other than that would you try and get all the guys a game?
No idea if he was any good but didn't Sharples play some games at FB for Glous at the start of the season? Perhaps someone can let us know how he went although I'm thinking a few early season games in the Prem is not really great preparation to play at FB for your country at the WC. Could be something for the future though and he must have had some sort of kicking game to play at 15.
B91212- Posts : 1714
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Canada
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
Robbo my point is why can MJ not continue to constantly pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS? Is it too difficult for him to understand?
There has to be a balance. You can't re-select the entire squad every 6 months because there's been a couple of injuries and a player or two in similar positions have had a decent time of it. There needs to be a team structure in place a regular spine of the team from which the rest is based. The more changes the less likely the team is to gell in time for the fixtures. End up like a Barbarians team minus the super star names. I can fully understand the approach to the forwards based on consistentcy of selection and the same with the majority of the back division.
However, the none selection of an additional IC and FB to offer viable options to the squad as a whole is disappointing. Armitage and Flutey are currently walking into the squad where they should be forced to prove themselves against a form option.
If we lose Foden and Easter we are in deep trouble.
There are decent cover options for Foden, Cueto and Armitage have international experience at FB and both are superior tactical players. In case of serious injury we could call out a decent replacement in either Brown or Goode. At 8 however, we have no experienced back up other than Haskell and he was always weak at 8. Add to that there is then only Crane and Narrraway to choose from as like for like replacements and both have been injury worries over the last season. Waldrom is also available but not like for like. Full back doesn't overly concern me but at 8 we are unprepared for a major injury to Easter.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21333
Join date : 2011-07-13
Age : 38
Location : Leicestershire
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
I know robbo it's a depressing looking squad. So many mediocre/out of form/ out of date players. It's a rubbish squad except in areas where form players have been picked. Consistency I agree. Consistently mediocre.
Most, if not all the players involved in the win in Australia and the 2011 Six Nations Championship are now involved in this squad. I'll admit that is mediocre compared to the England squads at the turn of the millennium, but it's quite a way better then what we've been seeing over the last 8 years. Martin Johnson is taking this team forward, and he's not doing that by quickly throwing away the players who have got us to this stage. It's a work in progress, constant improvement, rather than overhauling the squad because Bradley Barritt had a good season in the Aviva Premiership.
Re: England Squad Update (Players released)
beshocked wrote:Robbo my point is why can MJ not continue to constantly pick ALL IN FORM PLAYERS IN ALL POSITIONS? Is it too difficult for him to understand?
Because you'd have a different side every time you played.
Picking an international squad isn't simply a matter picking the 'best' players and trying to make a team out of them (at least not in my opinion). You have to have a team of players you believe will compliment each other. Otherwise you're the Ospreys.
You need to pick players based on many factors, form, experience, combinations, style, etc. A lot will be based on first names in the squad and work from there.
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
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