62-5 still haunts me...

There should have been a public stoning after the humiliation of 2007. It is even more amazing to see that Gatland & co have stated that this Welsh team will be one of the fittest at the tournament. Funny that, Gareth Jenkins said the exact same thing and Wales played like fannies. When will they learn that gym fitness means nothing when you are clueless in attack. Look at New Zealand or France.

I still feel it will be another 20 years before Wales win again at Twickenham & England's strength in depth is looking scary.

Prediction?

England 38 - 21 Wales

ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt wrote: England's strength in depth is looking scary.

Really?
Behind their test-level players they have a ton of Premiership grade players. Many of them would look out of place at test level - Vainakolo, Hodgeson etc..

If you want scary depth look at NZ and France.

ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt wrote:There should have been a public stoning after the humiliation of 2007. It is even more amazing to see that Gatland & co have stated that this Welsh team will be one of the fittest at the tournament. Funny that, Gareth Jenkins said the exact same thing and Wales played like fannies. When will they learn that gym fitness means nothing when you are clueless in attack. Look at New Zealand or France.

I still feel it will be another 20 years before Wales win again at Twickenham & England's strength in depth is looking scary.

Prediction?

England 38 - 21 Wales

No mention of the 2011 event, no reasons for why Wales are clueless in attack, and no view of what you would do to solve this perception


Yet another WUM creeping into our forum

With a name like ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt? Never!


How's about we treat him to a sensible discussion. It might scare him off.

Draigoch wrote:With a name like ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt? Never!


How's about we treat him to a sensible discussion. It might scare him off.

How about getting his mother to put him to bed, cup of hot milk and a bedtime story

Join date: 2011-08-04 Probably somebody that's created another user-name. It should not take long for the admin team to check that out.

Just to show how fickle and strange how we the public can be. After that 60 point drubbing of Wales, the England supporters and media jumped ugly with the team since no backs scored until near the end in garbage time. No real backs, no cutting edge, blah, blah, blah. Turns out it was true, but the point was a big victory was portrayed in the media almost as a loss.

Nick Easter - the Nick Easter - scored 4 tries if I am not mistaken. So, after a resounding victory no one was happy. And that accurately foreshadowed a fairly poor England team. The reasons how they were able to pull themselves together to get to the final and play it close is another story altogether.

Draigoch wrote:

ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt wrote: England's strength in depth is looking scary.

Really?
Behind their test-level players they have a ton of Premiership grade players. Many of them would look out of place at test level - Vainakolo, Hodgeson etc..

If you want scary depth look at NZ and France.

Not sure who Vainakolo and Hodgeson are ?

And not sure that France have any strength in depth. They got smashed by England and lost to Italy in this years 6N.

England have put out a 2nd string this weekend that a few Welsh fans think are very strong.

nottins wrote:

Draigoch wrote:

ILoveMyYellowWalesShirt wrote: England's strength in depth is looking scary.

Really?
Behind their test-level players they have a ton of Premiership grade players. Many of them would look out of place at test level - Vainakolo, Hodgeson etc..

If you want scary depth look at NZ and France.

Not sure who Vainakolo and Hodgeson are ?

And not sure that France have any strength in depth. They got smashed by England and lost to Italy in this years 6N.

England have put out a 2nd string this weekend that a few Welsh fans think are very strong.

Ahem any real England fan would have known

10. Wilkinson is your form flyhalf. Played really well toward end of the season, whilst Flood lost form
9. Care is your form scrum-half
13. Tuilagi is your form centre
12. Fluety is your only centre that can change a game plan to B or C

8, 7, 6 of Haskell, Moody, and Croft are arguably your best options
5. Palmer has had a great season for Stade
2. Hartley is the best you have got

So to me that 9 first team options

Now Wales have their
British Lions front row
Hook arguably their most influential player
Byrne Lions FB................................. all out

So to me thats 10 first team options


Silly Billie

Form doesn't necessarily mean first team besides who knows the current form?

This is largely a second string whereas Gats has stated he has put out his strongest team.
There is a difference there.

Wilkinson, Care, Tuilagi, Flutey and Moody weren't first choice in the 6N, so that's knocked it down to 4....

Is Silly Billie supposed to be some sort of insult ?

lovemyyellow shirt
Who lost 62-5, you dont say what game your tlking about..
gatty may not have bought the results to wales that the Welsh public may have expected, but he wont give up onthem, and he will be right there with thelast man standing if it comes to that....

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Form doesn't necessarily mean first team besides who knows the current form?

This is largely a second string whereas Gats has stated he has put out his strongest team.
There is a difference there.

I dont agree its a second string as you said how do you not know they not the form "1st choice" players

I have told you the reasons I think 10 out of 15 of those players are 1st choice i.e. 2/3rds of the , you tell me who are not 1st choice.

I'll say it again Floods form dipped towards the last 3rd of the season, whilst Wilko played very well, same can be said of Care

I cannae see MJ putting out a 2nd string and end up losing at HQ ....................can you?

who said a second string would lose at HQ?

nottins wrote:Wilkinson, Care, Tuilagi, Flutey and Moody weren't first choice in the 6N, so that's knocked it down to 4....

Is Silly Billie supposed to be some sort of insult ?

The 6Ns was in the early part of 2011

I'll tell you again just because they didnt play in the 6Ns doesnt mean they are not first choice now

Wilko is the form 10, Flood's form dipped
Care is the form 9, Youngs form dipped
Moody was the first choice flanker and Capt until he got injured
Tuilagi is the form 13 no doubt about that
Fluety is your most creative inside centre

So it doesnt knock it down to 4 at all IMHO

Its largely a first choice team

Care is too slow at the breakdown. Flood is the 1st choice 10. Tuilagi has never played for England, so not even 2nd choice. Moody hasn't played for a while so can't be classed as 1st choice. It's nowhere near a 1st choice team. The first choice team will play in the next match.

OK Nottins lets agree to disagree

You say its nowhere near a first choice side and I say it is

By the way Gatland has said thats as close to his first choice side he has got and its up to the rest to get the shirts off them ............ but Byrne, 1/2p, Hook, Ryan Jones, Adam Jones, Matthew Rees (Capt), Gethin Jenkins are all out. Plus the fact that Delve has had a superb season in Oz

As I said MJ wouldnt take a chance of possible losing by putting our a 2nd 15 especially at HQ

We'll chat this time next week

And we'll chat when the side is picked for the return leg

flyhalffactory wrote:OK Nottins lets agree to disagree

No, let's agree that you agree with me.

flyhalffactory wrote:You say its nowhere near a first choice side and I say it is

You're the only person saying it is.

flyhalffactory wrote:By the way Gatland has said thats as close to his first choice side he has got and its up to the rest to get the shirts off them ............ but Byrne, 1/2p, Hook, Ryan Jones, Adam Jones, Matthew Rees (Capt), Gethin Jenkins are all out. Plus the fact that Delve has had a superb season in Oz

So, the person who know actually knows his players, the coach, says he's playing his strongest side is wrong ?

flyhalffactory wrote:As I said MJ wouldnt take a chance of possible losing by putting our a 2nd 15 especially at HQ

We'll chat this time next week

And we'll chat when the side is picked for the return leg

Will we really ? I'm sure MJ thinks his 2nd string side is good enough to beat Wales strongest (according to Gatland) side.

This England team doesn't really look like MJ's 1st side. That's not to say that it's weak, but with Ashton, Cole, Lawes, Easter, Flood, and Foden out of the side, all of whom are well regarded as guaranteed starters, it's clear that there is a decent ammount of experimentation going on.

Add to this the exclusion of Wood, Youngs, Hape, and Tindall, who are generally regarded as first choice (but maybe not for long), and the team seems even further from our strongest side.

Having said that, I don't really think it's fair to call it a second string side. Every player in this team is considered by some to be better than MJ's preffered players, and perhaps MJ himself has been so impressed, during training, with the players starting on Saturday that they are now his favored side. Probably not, but it's possible. At any rate, this is a full test, and Wales are definitely too good for us to expect to win with a weakened squad.

nottins wrote:Care is too slow at the breakdown. Flood is the 1st choice 10. Tuilagi has never played for England, so not even 2nd choice. Moody hasn't played for a while so can't be classed as 1st choice. It's nowhere near a 1st choice team. The first choice team will play in the next match.

To be fair...Care really picked up his game last season after losing the 9 shirt. He's definitely good at playing the slower controlled game to see out matches, but his pass is much quicker, he doesn't take as many steps before firing the ball away now. He's comfortably the better player running with the ball as well imo.

I think the Welsh selection is an excellent one, some senior heads in there and some junior members to make the 15. I think maybe Wales have done a mini S Africa here with a smaller list of injuries which may appear in the starting team next week. If nottins really thinks that this is or strongest squad then he does not know Mr Gatland and certaily does not know the Welsh team....bless

flyhalffactory wrote:
just because they didnt play in the 6Ns doesnt mean they are not first choice now

this is what i have been thinking for a while. i havnt posted any team selections because i havent seen any of these guys play for months. i dont know who is in form and who is first choice.

i dont have much confidence in johnno as a coach so he might have done a garethjenkins with this warmup selection, but maybe, just maybe he's got it right and englnad will treat wales to a thumping.

i reckon it will be a close match, and based purely on my sudden bout of optimism i reckon wales will sneak it.

nottins wrote:And not sure that France have any strength in depth. They got smashed by England

False. France were beaten by England but they were far from smashed.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

False. France were beaten by England but they were far from smashed.

When Wales beat a side by 7 points or more e.g. England 2008, they've smashed the opposition. England won by 8 points, so therefore they smashed France.

So you see other posters exaggerating and choose to join them in doing so. Ah well, each to their own.

flyhalffactory wrote:

nottins wrote:Wilkinson, Care, Tuilagi, Flutey and Moody weren't first choice in the 6N, so that's knocked it down to 4....

Is Silly Billie supposed to be some sort of insult ?

The 6Ns was in the early part of 2011

I'll tell you again just because they didnt play in the 6Ns doesnt mean they are not first choice now

Wilko is the form 10, Flood's form dipped
Care is the form 9, Youngs form dipped
Moody was the first choice flanker and Capt until he got injured
Tuilagi is the form 13 no doubt about that
Fluety is your most creative inside centre

So it doesnt knock it down to 4 at all IMHO

Its largely a first choice team

Largely first choice? It's a poor England side. Certainly much weaker than it could be.

Flutey hasn't shown good form for a long long time. Ditto Armitage.

Shaw is past his sell by date. Won't last the full 80. The opportunity should be to either give Deacon or Lawes game time or try out Botha.

Cueto and Banahan on the wings lack the pace and creativity.

Backrow balance is poor. Haskell is a good ball carrier but little else. The English version of Andy Powell. Is Moody even first choice anymore?

welshjohn369 wrote:I think the Welsh selection is an excellent one, some senior heads in there and some junior members to make the 15. I think maybe Wales have done a mini S Africa here with a smaller list of injuries which may appear in the starting team next week. If nottins really thinks that this is or strongest squad then he does not know Mr Gatland and certaily does not know the Welsh team....bless

Garland himself has said he has put out his strongest team, you I either believe him or not but like Nottins said I suspect he knows better than most punters on here.

I just can't see England winning this one, the Welsh team looks stronger and most of the players had better form towards the end of the season

England 18 Wales 27

Next week Wales 23 England 26

nottins wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:OK Nottins lets agree to disagree

No, let's agree that you agree with me.

Perhaps we should all agree to disagree then agree with nottins so he shuts up. Good discussion apart from that btw.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:I think the Welsh selection is an excellent one, some senior heads in there and some junior members to make the 15. I think maybe Wales have done a mini S Africa here with a smaller list of injuries which may appear in the starting team next week. If nottins really thinks that this is or strongest squad then he does not know Mr Gatland and certaily does not know the Welsh team....bless

Garland himself has said he has put out his strongest team, you I either believe him or not but like Nottins said I suspect he knows better than most punters on here.

I thought no one ever took what Gatland says in the press seriously?

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:I think the Welsh selection is an excellent one, some senior heads in there and some junior members to make the 15. I think maybe Wales have done a mini S Africa here with a smaller list of injuries which may appear in the starting team next week. If nottins really thinks that this is or strongest squad then he does not know Mr Gatland and certaily does not know the Welsh team....bless

Garland himself has said he has put out his strongest team, you I either believe him or not but like Nottins said I suspect he knows better than most punters on here.

I thought no one ever took what Gatland says in the press seriously?

Well said. Also, I believe it was said that it was the strongest team available.

To be honest if you look at the Welsh side it is IMO near a full strength side (bar the front row).

Priestland has played some of his best rugby htis season at 15, and with Jon Davies in the centre, North on the wing, and Jones at fly half, there is not reason that he can't cut the same lines for Wales off their shoulders as he has for the Scarlets (Hopefully he will get a repeat of the HC try against USAP this weekend against England).

Williams and North both appear to be Gatlands first choice when it comes to the wings, and to be fair they are probably the two wings that people put in their own welsh squads.

In the centre Jon Davies has been playing really well all season, and was right up the top of the try scorers list for the ML. Jamie Roberts has not been on any real form since the Lions tour but is an ever present.

Jones will be getting cap no. 101, and bar Hook doesn't really have too much competition for the 10 jersey internationally (especially with Priestland being able to slot in at fullback). Mike Phillips may well have lost form, but again like it or not he is pretty much the first choice at scrum half for this coaching team.

The front row are all second stringers, and I doubt many would argue that (unless they want to say Bennett is 99th choice). Alyn Wyn Jones and Bradley Davies have been the first choice second row partnership for a while. Again the back row is pretty much first choice, with the possible exception of young Toby.

So all in all that is pretty much a first choice team (non first choice players would probably be first choice bench warmers normally). SO trying to draw similarities to the thumping four years ago and this side is a bit harsh.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:To be honest if you look at the Welsh side it is IMO near a full strength side.

Same with England which most posters have commented on. IMO the majority of England fans are using it as a way to get an excuse in early in case they lose.

Ours isn't too bad. We just don't seem too sure of our first choice half-backs, centre's or no.8; this is what has casued the most debate.

why is it an excuse, I think the Welsh team looks stronger as most of them have played together before at club level if not international, the Welsh will be more pumped up as they have a lot to prove since they had a poor 6 nations whilst England will be looking at the bigger picture with the RWC around the corner.

Wales will win this one and IMO are going into the game as favourites

Does it matter if they're "full strength" or not?

I'm not sure it does, as whomever wins will get the bragging rights and whomever loses will have to put up with it (until at least next week). Both teams have put out what their coaches think are good sides that will beat the opposition. I doubt either would choose to do something that they thought made their chance of winning remote.

Because none of you will shut up about it. We all know it's a strong England team. Pack isn't far off and that's the area where it will be won.

"England will be looking at the bigger picture with the RWC around the corner."

And here's the other excuse coming in early.

I don't agree. I think England are favourites and will edge it.

nottins_jones wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:To be honest if you look at the Welsh side it is IMO near a full strength side.

Same with England which most posters have commented on. IMO the majority of England fans are using it as a way to get an excuse in early in case they lose.

Ours isn't too bad. We just don't seem too sure of our first choice half-backs, centre's or no.8; this is what has casued the most debate.

Well there is a chasm of caps between Phillips and Jones as partnership and the rest of the options.

Maybe the nippers breathing down their necks in the summer camps will have lit a few fires in the right places and kicked the weekends choice where they need it...

I am awaiting being surprised...

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:I think the Welsh selection is an excellent one, some senior heads in there and some junior members to make the 15. I think maybe Wales have done a mini S Africa here with a smaller list of injuries which may appear in the starting team next week. If nottins really thinks that this is or strongest squad then he does not know Mr Gatland and certaily does not know the Welsh team....bless

Garland himself has said he has put out his strongest team, you I either believe him or not but like Nottins said I suspect he knows better than most punters on here.

Gatland
No he said he has put out his strongest team available.................... G Jenkins, M Rees, A Jones, R Jones, G Delve, J Hook, L Halfpenny, L Byrne all can arguably say they would be in the first 15 deffo in the first 22

Johnson
When interviewed said that Flutey was the preferred 12 before he had a number of injuries, same with Moody, he also looked bemused when the reporter tried to suggest that this wasn't a first choice 22, going on to say that a number of players were first choice before injuries or suspensions........... and that in the training camp all these players had put their hands up

that for me is good enough for me and confirms that this England side is 2/3rd first choice

I would suggest that this is the twitchy bums n excuses time from our friends across the wall

I would suggest that this is the twitchy bums n excuses time from our friends across the wall

Still laying claim to Northumberland eh?

I would say that Sheridan, Cole, Lawes, Easter, Youngs, Flood, Tindall, Ashton and Foden are missing from this being a first choice team, although I believe Sheridan, Lawes and Youngs have slight injury worries. I don't think there's too much difference between all our props, Flood and Wilkinson or Tindall and Tuilagi (trading defensive organisation for attacking flair with that last one). I think we might miss out on Easter's leadership and direction (but Haskell is a stronger runner in my opinion) and Ashton and Foden's flair in the back three, but all in all I still think this is a strong England side albeit with an air of experimentation.

I won't be making any excuses if England lose, this team is strong enough that they should be winning at home against lower-ranked opposition. England by 7.

TrailApe wrote:

I would suggest that this is the twitchy bums n excuses time from our friends across the wall

Still laying claim to Northumberland eh?

Of Course you thieves !!!!

I think Wales should be wary of another humiliation by England as i fear the bad old days are back for the 'Principality' ( But good for England) and i suggest that a lot of Welsh fans brace themselves for a severe thrashing by 'Big brother' England, i just hope its not by 62- 5. No honestly!! Ha,ha.

Yes that was a very black day - not as black as tomorrow is going to be for England though!

I may be being a bit dim here but surely both coaches are trying stuff in preparation for the WC.Some stuff will work,other stuff wont.Simples.The result as long as it is not embarrasing does not matter.
But it's England/but it's Wales does not matter one jot.
Players and units are displaying their whares to their respective coaches.Good luck to all be they Welsh,English or any other country of birth/parentage.

Jesus what has happened to this forum over the last few weeks, we had a nice place with decent debate and solid arguments given to reinforce points of views, now sadly baiting has creeped into a few of the people with lower post counts.

I think England will win it, simply because Bennett is so poor at the lineouts, Wilksinson will pin Wales back and pressurize Bennetts shocking throwing and steal points from Welsh penalties. Though I think Wales will hit England on a counter attack, Wales back row is much faster and Shane Williams with a bit of space will scream past that big lumbering ox on the England wing.

That 07 game did hurt BUT I was there in 08 for our first win there since Pontius was a Pilot and that evened things up.

Especially as I was with the same group of people, some who were English that had given me such a hard time in 07.

" IMO the majority of England fans are using it as a way to get an excuse in early in case they lose."

I don't agree at all. If we lose, we lose. This is not a Saxons side, so any team we put out is our 1st team period, BUT there are just far too many established players who have not been included in this England team for anyone to really say that it's our "full strength" side. I mean, if this were the WC final, on current form and trends in selection, we would definitely be seeing Easter, Lawes, Ashton, Foden, and very probably Cole, Flood, Hape, and Tindall all included in the side. That's a significant number. Imagine what you'd think of the Welsh side if you had to replace your best (I know it's subjective) four to eight men.

That being said, if you want to win the WC you have to have a squad of competent players that can ALL be trusted if called upon. The only way to ensure this is to get them playing together. Hopefully for us these pre-WC fixtures will allow such a squad to emerge. If we lose there will, no doubt, be excuses from certain fans, and that also goes for the Welsh, but that's pretty much always a given isn't it?

english warrior wrote: I think Wales should be wary of another humiliation by England as i fear the bad old days are back for the 'Principality' ( But good for England) and i suggest that a lot of Welsh fans brace themselves for a severe thrashing by 'Big brother' England, i just hope its not by 62- 5. No honestly!! Ha,ha.

That you englandworldbeaters?

Count.. Sorry that's been the bitter tone I've been getting all week since the England team was announced. Same for us, if we lose, we lose. Hopefully it will give us a better understanding of our best team. There's too much debate over the halfbacks, centre's and back-row. I think it's just the no.8 in up for grabs in our back-row though.

Clearly we've learnt from 2007 and I'm glad. I think it's important to prioritise both England games over the Argentina one too.