Short debate on Irelands options at centre

First topic message reminder :

Given Darcy is looking more and more and more doubtful i'm interested to see who else could support BOD in the upcoming world cup. I am aware there are many people out there who would say even a fit Darcy should not start, but i'm assuming if fit he will start in the crunch games.

Notch wrote:The hype over McFadden is borderline madness imo. He's a good ML level player at the moment who's being made out to be a test star in waiting. He needs to prove himself for Leinster to justify this.

I have some sympathy with the fact he's stuck behind D'Arcy/BOD but D'Arcy hasn't had a particularly good season after all. BOD is a legend of the game, but D'Arcy is just a good player and not undroppable should an outstanding player come through behind him.

I believe he will go on to win more Ireland caps, but the fact he can't make the first team of his province is a rather big black mark against him no?

I'm saying all this as a guy who believes McFadden has all the attributes to be a very good player. Bar gametime and experience.

I suppose that is the sensible view OK. Logically there is not much in there to disagree with. (Parallels there with DOC POC and Ryan)
I was taking the passionate view. Luckily Kidders is a bit more dispassionate than I when he picks the team.

Anyway. I need a bit of lunch. I'm getting too intense.

clivemcl wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

How can you be championing Darcy and his experience whenever you are willing to ignore Paddy's experience in favour of the unproven McFadden?

I'm all in favour of the young ones getting their chances, I'm always sitting waiting for some young irish boy to set the world on fire again like BOD did. Which is why, for me, its about Paddy or D'arcy to start, but McFadden to go for his versitality and youth.

Paddy is in the driver seat over Darcy. And both may go at Fergus' expence because I'm not Sure Kidney shares my youthful naive dreamy attitude of what might be!

Makes no sense Must be the blue goggles. I'll have to get a new prescription.

I suppose I feel that Darce has bags more talent to go with that experience.

Come on Jen, I went as far as to agree on McFaddens plane ticket, your just being gready now!
One for you and one for me?

Deal!

+1


I'm all for Paddy at 12, but 12 or not at all, no 22 jersey for paddy please!

For the record my position at this stage is for all three to go and Fitz lose out. But I'm willing to wait and see how Fitz performs tomo!

Yeah, Trimble would make so much more sense in that 22 jersey.

McFadden is good but if was as good as the hype,he would have wrestled the 12 jersey of D'Arcy or the 11 of Fitz( who I don't think has been as bad as people claim)

I feel bad for him in fairness. He's not done anything much wrong for Leinster.

Mind you, he is still getting the opportunity to shine in an Ireland jersey this weekend. It's a massive chance for him.

I think he is much better suited to play 13 than 12 at test level for two reasons; at 12 he will have a lot less time and space on the ball than he would be used to in the ML and that could make it harder for him to perform. And at 13 I think we're much more likely to see that dangerous outside break of his.

I agree Thomond. Am I the only person here who thinks Fitzgerald has done more to warrant WC selection than McFadden?

I really feel that McFadden is only in the frame because of the doubts around D'arcy. Based on what he's delivered to date I don't think he would even be a serious consideration alongside Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Fitzgerald and perhaps even Felix Jones for a back 3/ utility spot.

roddersm wrote:I agree Thomond. Am I the only person here who thinks Fitzgerald has done more to warrant WC selection than McFadden?

I really feel that McFadden is only in the frame because of the doubts around D'arcy. Based on what he's delivered to date I don't think he would even be a serious consideration alongside Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Fitzgerald and perhaps even Felix Jones for a back 3/ utility spot.

I think there are probably players who have done more than both. McFadden is overhyped by Leinster fans but that is only natural, everyone is like that about their own players. McFadden will only go to the world cup if there are injuries. He is behind bowe, earls, trimble and fitz for the wing, he doesn't play full back and there are three players ahead of him in the centre with earls, fitz and bowe able to cover there. I would think from what kidney has been saying lately and after the six nations, he is likely to take two full backs which will cut down on the number of place mcfadden is able to push for.

For sure it would be tough on Fitz. He didn't make the last WC either. It could / would be a fatal blow to his career IMO.

It's a big day for Wallace as well. More so than Fitz he needs to prove it in an Ireland jersey. The overwhelming opinion (despite this forum) is that Wallace is not up to International standard. Rightly or wrongly, that's the perception amongst many.

OK. He did well on a few games on tour in the summer. I believe the summer / autumn tests are flawed in their nature due to seasonal differnences, but that's another issue.

If Paddy has a nightmare, a real nightmare, I think there has to be pressure on Kidney not taking him, let alone giving him the 12 shirt for the Oz game and QF...

Boyne wrote:For sure it would be tough on Fitz. He didn't make the last WC either. It could / would be a fatal blow to his career IMO.

It's a big day for Wallace as well. More so than Fitz he needs to prove it in an Ireland jersey. The overwhelming opinion (despite this forum) is that Wallace is not up to International standard. Rightly or wrongly, that's the perception amongst many.

Perception and reality are two different things sometimes. Kidney's perception is the only one that really matters.

I found it amazing the stick he got for the last minute of the Wales game this year. Luke Fitzgerald and Gordon D'Arcy were on the pitch for the whole game and made a lot of poor decisions in attack, especially Fitz. Wallace made one borderline call which didn't work out. All the criticism was for Wallace.

There's fair criticism and there's looking for a scapegoat.

Notch-
I thought Fitz attacked pretty well against Wales, what parts of the game are you thinking of?

Kicking. Particularly in the Wales half.

In fact, on the whole, the quality of all our kicking from hand was poor in that game.

Notch wrote:Kicking. Particularly in the Wales half.

In fact, on the whole, the quality of all our kicking from hand was poor in that game.

Add Catching to that.

The big culprit against Wales was Ronan O'Gara. His kicking boots deserted him that day. We got our tactics all wrong and his touch finders simply found Lee Byrne.

Paddy is a soft target for criticism by the Irish fans and media. He's delivered far more in an international jersey than a lot of his much hyped and vaunted teammates, yet people continue to question his worth to the side.

Oh ok I'd agree with that, I thought with ball in hand you said he was bad but I thought he did ok with ball in hand

Pete, I often felt like he kicked at the wrong times and that's what I mean by decision making. Now let's not go too far in the other direction and make Fitzgerald a scapegoat becasue it was a poor team performance.

I think Paddy Wallace was included in the 22 for the world cup because if he is expected to step in at 10, he needs to be well up to speed, in a routine etc. to be able to perform. I suspect that during the world cup, if he isn't starting, he will be left out of the 22.

According to the Examiner, this is how Kidney is making his selections:

Kidney also outlined his selection criteria for the plane to New Zealand. He explained:

"Some guys have gone well over the last couple of years, We will sum it up from

a. how guys went towards the end of last season,

b) from what we know guys can bring to it,

c) how they have gone in pre season and

d) the fourth part of that will be to see how they go in the coming matches.

It’s open enough in that there is an opportunity for everyone to play their way in if I can accommodate them with game time, but it may not be possible to do that in order to get 30 guys match fit. There is no fairness in it (I suppose), because we have five games (including a friendly against Connacht) and you try to divide up the 400 minutes evenly. But that doesn’t happen because you have to try to give combinations a chance to work, you have to get some guys who were out (injured) more time than others to get them match-fit."

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/sport/rugby/coach-kidney-confident-mccarthy-will-make-mark-163309.html#ixzz1UA75SKmk

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:Kicking. Particularly in the Wales half.

In fact, on the whole, the quality of all our kicking from hand was poor in that game.

Add Catching to that.

The big culprit against Wales was Ronan O'Gara. His kicking boots deserted him that day. We got our tactics all wrong and his touch finders simply found Lee Byrne.

Paddy is a soft target for criticism by the Irish fans and media. He's delivered far more in an international jersey than a lot of his much hyped and vaunted teammates, yet people continue to question his worth to the side.

Sexton came on at 49 mins. just before Philips try. Ireland didn't score any points after that.

EDIT: not too sure he was looking for touchfinders as I seem to remember the Welsh lineout was going very well.

Is it just me or do people here give Paddy more grief for giving away the pen that NEARLY cost us the Grand Slam, than ROG gets here for the pen he gave away that DID cost us the Lions tour.

Team effort

Meh.

Sin é wrote:
Sexton came on at 49 mins. just before Philips try. Ireland didn't score any points after that.

EDIT: not too sure he was looking for touchfinders as I seem to remember the Welsh lineout was going very well.

Well if he wasn't looking for touch, he was looking for space and all he found was Lee Byrne.

Look I'm not just blaming ROG. It was a team thing and we got our tactics wrong. Like Notch said Wallace really got an unfair amount of stick for what was a poor display all round.

Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean where Paddy didn't want anyone to steal his limelight and wouldn't pass to Keith Earls.

Kingshu wrote:Is it just me or do people here give Paddy more grief for giving away the pen that NEARLY cost us the Grand Slam, than ROG gets here for the pen he gave away that DID cost us the Lions tour.

I think its just plain provincial bias every time, nothing to do with that penalty. Most people have forgotten it. If that was the case, ROG would be loved by Ireland supporters for getting the DG.

Mind you, it would probably be a different story if Jones kicked the points and Ireland lost a grand slam.

I feel sorry for Paddy because he rarely gets to start and settle into a game. It must be very difficult coming on with 5-10 mins to go and having to settle in quickly to the pace of the game.

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

The thing that hasnt helped McFadden is that Schmidt was reluctant to use him at 12 all season. His standout performances have come on the wing. At the minute I would go for Paddy at 12 but our options here (even with D'arce) arent outstanding so if Fergus gets the chance to make the 12 jersey his own and takes it from Paddy then fairs fair. As long as they both get a run out.

The only other option is moving BOD in one and using Earls (i hope not) or Bowe (i wouldnt mind) at 13.

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

Stand, i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again, and again. Paddy and Earls had two metres next to touch with 5metres to tryline. Earls was too deep for starters. two covering defenders were rushing across. They WOULD have got Earls if the pass was made. He WOULD have been put out of touch ending the game.

Paddy new they needed to keep the ball in posession, he did the professional thing and avoided the touchline, and put the faith in the continued pressure of his team to score eventually.


But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton came on at 49 mins. just before Philips try. Ireland didn't score any points after that.

EDIT: not too sure he was looking for touchfinders as I seem to remember the Welsh lineout was going very well.

Well if he wasn't looking for touch, he was looking for space and all he found was Lee Byrne.

Look I'm not just blaming ROG. It was a team thing and we got our tactics wrong. Like Notch said Wallace really got an unfair amount of stick for what was a poor display all round.

Well, maybe that says a lot for Lee Byrne's positioning.

I just checked the kicking stats:

Fitz 6
Bowe 5
BOD 4
D'Arcy 1
Earls 2
O'Gara 14
Stringer 4
POC 1*
Heaslip 1*
Sexton 7
P Wallace 1

Scary amount of kicking there. Even POC & Heaslip were at it! Might have been better if O'Gara did a bit more than he actually did!

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

I don't.

You have just tried to defend the indefensible. Earls was home and dry. Clear as day. How can I take your honest opinion (and give it credence)on Wallace when you decide to recycle that BS to me as an excuse for not giving the scoring pass?

Keep the pressure up?

Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case you have my apologies.

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

Yeah it was awful. I can't believe BOD threw the ball straight over McFaddens head like that with the line beckoning. Shocking.

clivemcl wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

Stand, i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again, and again. Paddy and Earls had two metres next to touch with 5metres to tryline. Earls was too deep for starters. two covering defenders were rushing across. They WOULD have got Earls if the pass was made. He WOULD have been put out of touch ending the game.

Paddy new they needed to keep the ball in posession, he did the professional thing and avoided the touchline, and put the faith in the continued pressure of his team to score eventually.


But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Theres another video up there with Keith Wood and Jonathan Davis' reaction to that incident. Have a look at it and get back to me.

Or are they suffering from "provincial bias" too???

Boyne wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

I don't.

You have just tried to defend the indefensible. Earls was home and dry. Clear as day. How can I take your honest opinion (and give it credence)on Wallace when you decide to recycle that BS to me as an excuse for not giving the scoring pass?

Keep the pressure up?

Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case you have my apologies.

i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again, and again. Paddy and Earls had two metres next to touch with 5metres to tryline. Earls was too deep for starters. two covering defenders were rushing across. They WOULD have got Earls if the pass was made. He WOULD have been put out of touch ending the game.

Paddy new they needed to keep the ball in posession, he did the professional thing and avoided the touchline, and put the faith in the continued pressure of his team to score eventually.


But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Boyne, if you cannot at least say my explanation has some merit, then i can only assume that you have never played rugby in your life, or at the very least you must be a prop.

[quote]Boyne, if you cannot at least say my explanation has some merit, then i can only assume that you have never played rugby in your life, or at the very least you must be a prop.[quote]

Wing forward for 15 years at rep. level. You?

clivemcl wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

Stand, i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again, and again. Paddy and Earls had two metres next to touch with 5metres to tryline. Earls was too deep for starters. two covering defenders were rushing across. They WOULD have got Earls if the pass was made. He WOULD have been put out of touch ending the game.

Paddy new they needed to keep the ball in posession, he did the professional thing and avoided the touchline, and put the faith in the continued pressure of his team to score eventually.


But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Clive

Im not bashing Paddy here and i hate the sentiment that the video expresses as it is designed to get on his back. Howeverlooking at that video if Paddy draws Hook and gives the pass there is no way Lee Byrne is going to get near him. He had to make a split second decision and doesnt have the benefit of freeze frames etc so im not judging him but earls was in imo

Earls would have made the corner Clive. Of that I am sure. Are Wood and Davis wrong as well?

I would take your subjective opinion more seriously if you'd at least admit the obvious.

The videos are up there.

Anyway, I really hope Paddy proves me wrong. And there are a lot of people on here who back him and who obviously know him more than I, so I am looking fwd to seeing him.

clivemcl wrote:
Stand, i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again,

I did. I now want to kill Paddy Wallace!!! All over again!! And Cian Healy just a little. He is only a prop after all.

At the end of the day, both paddy and Fergus are essentially playing for their place. You cant ask for more than that

clivemcl wrote:
But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Of course they don't. The golden rule in rugby is keep the ball. Don't force the pass if it's not on. In the final play of the game if Wallace gives to Earls and he doesn't score then the game is lost. In fact without a touchline conversion it's still lost. By coming inside and recycling the ball Wallace kept the game alive.

Wallace option was only the wrong one in hindsight because we subsequently dropped the ball and lost the game. Wallace took the safe option but he did not take the wrong one. Wallace not passing did not cost us the game.

How many times has Gordon D'arcy or Keith Earls failed to give a pass? Countless times but because Wallace didn't pass in the final play of the game he gets slaughtered by the fans and media. It's pathetic.

The real question is how we managed to lose a game were we outscored the opposition by 3 tries to 1.

Lets get Peter Allen on a Q&A and see what he thinks!

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Boyne wrote:Anyone remember the butchering of that overlap?

You mean the failure to put a pass to a guy on the touchline who could have been pushed out of play for the final whistle to blow but instead taking the contact and keeping the ball in play to continue the pressure?

Yea i remember

In fairness Clive i dont think anyone would have got near Earls in that situation. I understand your point though.

Stand, i completly disagree. And this still infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG3zAjnkrw

Watch it! go to 2min mark. hit pause. watch it, watch it again, and again. Paddy and Earls had two metres next to touch with 5metres to tryline. Earls was too deep for starters. two covering defenders were rushing across. They WOULD have got Earls if the pass was made. He WOULD have been put out of touch ending the game.

Paddy new they needed to keep the ball in posession, he did the professional thing and avoided the touchline, and put the faith in the continued pressure of his team to score eventually.


But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Clive

Im not bashing Paddy here and i hate the sentiment that the video expresses as it is designed to get on his back. Howeverlooking at that video if Paddy draws Hook and gives the pass there is no way Lee Byrne is going to get near him. He had to make a split second decision and doesnt have the benefit of freeze frames etc so im not judging him but earls was in imo

Stand, I'll happily talk to you as you at least take peoples viewpoints into consideration and respond reasonably.
I would have to concede that Earls might have scored from that pass. He might have. but that is WASNT the only possibility. The other possibility was end of game.
Paddys failure to score resulted in play continuing. If Earls was passed to, it was an either or situation. Eaither Win or Lose (by being bundled out of touch).

I totally disagree with anyone claiming a try was a certainty if the pass was made. anyone claiming that without doubt has to be a biased paddy hater quite simply.

I'm sure when Paddy took the contact, he wasn't expecting one of his team mates would drop the ball seconds later.

Thought this was supposed to be short?

roddersm wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
But then Cian Healy dropped the ball.... remember that anyone?

Of course they don't. The golden rule in rugby is keep the ball. Don't force the pass if it's not on. In the final play of the game if Wallace gives to Earls and he doesn't score then the game is lost. In fact without a touchline conversion it's still lost. By coming inside and recycling the ball Wallace kept the game alive.

Wallace option was only the wrong one in hindsight because we subsequently dropped the ball and lost the game. Wallace took the safe option but he did not take the wrong one. Wallace not passing did not cost us the game.

How many times has Gordon D'arcy or Keith Earls failed to give a pass? Countless times but because Wallace didn't pass in the final play of the game he gets slaughtered by the fans and media. It's pathetic.

The real question is how we managed to lose a game were we outscored the opposition by 3 tries to 1.

I think there is an important distinction to make

Scenario A: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we knock the ball on somewhere and lose.
Result: Paddy is hated for not giving a pass that could have been a try and could have been converted to win us the game

Scenario B: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we go through a few more phases, score the try closer to the sticks and kick the conversion and win the game.
Result: Paddy is applauded for having the wisdom, maturity and rugby brain for not giving a risky pass that could have lost us the game.


"The inches around us are everywhere, they are in every play of the game...."

MBTGOG wrote:Thought this was supposed to be short?

Amazing I made the point that Wallace was unfairly singled out for one incident in a game where a number of high-profile players made mistakes and that the focusing in on one player was just empty scapegoating and I come back to this.

If it was the worst mistake an Irish player made in the 6N it would make sense, but come on! A whole games worth of mistakes and wrong options and no-one else in the team gets this. Silly.

Compared to our usual 5 pages and then some,this is short.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think there is an important distinction to make

Scenario A: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we knock the ball on somewhere and lose.
Result: Paddy is hated for not giving a pass that could have been a try and could have been converted to win us the game

Scenario B: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we go through a few more phases, score the try closer to the sticks and kick the conversion and win the game.
Result: Paddy is applauded for having the wisdom, maturity and rugby brain for not giving a risky pass that could have lost us the game.


"The inches around us are everywhere, they are in every play of the game...."

Exactly pete. It's very easy with hindsight and the benefit of replays to deduce that something was the right or wrong option. A player can only go on his instincts.

If a player repeadly takes the wrong option more than the right one then they're probably just a bad player but to slaughter a player for one "mistake" is bang out of order.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think there is an important distinction to make

Scenario A: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we knock the ball on somewhere and lose.
Result: Paddy is hated for not giving a pass that could have been a try and could have been converted to win us the game

Scenario B: Paddy doesn't pass the ball recycles it and we go through a few more phases, score the try closer to the sticks and kick the conversion and win the game.
Result: Paddy is applauded for having the wisdom, maturity and rugby brain for not giving a risky pass that could have lost us the game.


"The inches around us are everywhere, they are in every play of the game...."

Exactly pete. It's very easy with hindsight and the benefit of replays to deduce that something was the right or wrong option. A player can only go on his instincts.

If a player repeadly takes the wrong option more than the right one then they're probably just a bad player but to slaughter a player for one "mistake" is bang out of order.

I take it that comment is tongue in cheek Is it ok to slaughter someone if they make two mistakes?

Short debate eh?? 100 posts later....