The British view of David Haye

I've been reading (and writing) the negative comments regarding David Haye and his recent performance and it got me thinking whether David Haye will be the only top British heavyweight in history to be remembered negatively or whether this view will eventually subside and people will remember David for more positive reasons such as bringing a bit of excitement back into the heavyweight division, if only for a small time, and being part of the first heavyweight title fight in almost a decade which captured the publics imagination and was met with eager anticipation.

Other British heavyweights such as Frank Bruno and the late Henry Cooper failed at top level and yet are viewed with national treasure status and although Haye's prefight antics, lack of respect for his opponent and his overall tendency to be a bit of an a**e mean this will never probably be the case for him i was wondering whether the 606ers believe they will look back on his career more positively in time?

Plus, he may yet grow a set of balls and agree to fight Vitali. Should he do so I will have alot more respect for him win or lose, the latter being much more likely.

i dont think his acheivements at cruiser weight will be fogotten, but he wont be remembered as a great heavyweight, unless he goes on to do more.

If he does leave his career here i think it will be a good few years before his Heavyweight days are forgotten and his Cruiserweight days are remembered.

As time goes on the backlash, inevitably, will subside and Haye's career will be viewed as the fine and successful one it's been. Us Brits do have a tendancy to build people up in the hope that they'll fall so that we can deride them as much as possible, but give it a year or so and people will be looking for something new to write other than 'Haye is a bum, Henry Cooper would have cut him to ribbons, he ducked Matt Skelton' and the like.

In years to come he'll be celebrated more, of that I have little doubt.

also depending what he does from here, i think if he takes a fight against vitali (which i cant see him seeing the end of) and copes badly then i think the critics will not forget for a while, where as if he retires now or fights a few lesser contenders and puts on a good show i think it will die down quite quickly.

He's arguably a top 25 UK pound for pound fighter all-time, possibly a top 5 all-time UK heavyweight and easily the best British cruiserweight ever. Eventually, when everyone has forgotten the unsavoury hype generation, those achievements will stand as pretty decent ones.

Haye's record will inevitably be somewhat tainted by the fact that he has lost to probably the best fighter he has faced in each of two divisions. For the moment, he will also have to suffer the disappointment that boxing people felt, and still feel, at the wide divergence between what he promised against Klitschko and what he actually produced. The first will always be there to remind people to rank him highly, but not too highly, in the British pantheon; the second will blow by with the passage of time.

the problem is so much was rideing on the wlad fight due to the hype , its easy to forget what he has achived and what an exciting boxer he has been , but hes lost to wlad was not as bad as people have made it out to be , yes the football/boxing fans jump on the hype and say hes rubbish because they belive england lost germany ! but the truth is he lost on points simple he was nt completley outclassed he just did nt perform on the night and the toe did nt help , only he can put this right by comeing back stronger he deffenatley has the talent but if he retiers now the boxing fans will remember him as a great cruzier and a good heavy but the public will remember him as a big mouth he couldent back up his words !!!

In fairness,Bruno failed against Tyson but still succeeed at the top level, two separate things!
I am bemused by the Henry Cooper thing to be honest, not suer that the history books will be as kind as the folk legend, but he was a man of the people and all that.David Haye, in my view, will be seen as someone who took advantage of a weak division at heacvy.I don't think his fighting weight was heavy, to look at him he even looks bulked up as a cruiser-compared to ,say,Carl Thompson or Johnny Nelson.Certainly no Holyfield,who had the shoulders and chest to carry just enough weight.In my opinion.
I suspect that we will see Haye on the cover of cheapo compilation hardbacks for years to come-well, until there's another British heavy contender....and that may be decades..it's possible that he will be looked back on with much greater affection.

Haye gets way too much credit for his cruiserweight days. He partially unified the poorest weight division at possibly the worst time in its limited existence. I very much doubt IBHOF will be breaking down Mormek and Enzo's doors any time soon.

At heavy, the story is similar. Valuev, an ageing Ruiz and Audley do not a great heavyweight make. Hell, I'd tip a peak Akinwande to scrape past those three.

I would agree with Bob in the sense that I dont really see anything overly special about Hayes cruiserweight reign. Timing was favourable for him in what was a pretty poor division. Had he cleared out the division it would be more impressive but Mormeck was ageing (and not all that great anyway) and Maccarinelli was simply a belt holder. Other divisional rivals such as Bell, Cunningham and Wlodarczyk were not really dealt with which would have strengthened his reign.

I think he established himself as the recognised best cruiserweight briefly in a weak division. Fragomeni, Mormeck and Maccarinelli simply isnt that strong a legacy even for that division at that time.

I think the British don't like a big mouth. The mouthing off and then to lose in the manner he did will sit very badly with the general pleblic.

Bruno was hardly impressive in his last effort against Tyson but he didn't do Hitler parodies, headless t-shirts and non-handshakes. Instead Bruno was a loveable dope, which is the way the British like their heavyweights to be. He is also remembered fondly for his assinine "where's 'arry" after every fight. Completely unfunny but Bruno was loved for that quote for some reason.

88Chris05 wrote:In years to come he'll be celebrated more, of that I have little doubt.

Not sure if I wholly agree with this Chris. As good as Haye was at Cruiserweight his reign came and went like a flash of lightening and don't think he's been in the public consiousness long enough to be fondly remembered.

Two world title fights is all he had. Hard to think he had more title fights as a heavyweight, and that was a few and far between.

Jim Driscoll only had one ND title fight in his whole career and he's still very fondly thought of and Bergs reign at light welterweight wasn't the longest although he was still considered the lineal champion despite losing his titles to Canzoneri. We're not a nation who have had a plethora of champions so anyone in the modern era who does unify a division will rightly or wrongly be remembered for it no matter how short the reign was.

Most of Hayes fame and publicity came in the heavyweight division so I suspect thats primarily what he will be remembered as despite his previous cruiserweight titles. Certainly with the general public anyway. Haye was not particularly well known as a cruiserweight and had very little longetivity there.

Cant help feel in years to come Haye will be remembered primarily for the Audley Harrison, Valuev and Klitschko fights.

Colonial Lion wrote:
Cant help feel in years to come Haye will be remembered primarily for the Audley Harrison, Valuev and Klitschko fights.

To me Haye's crowning glory was the Valuev fight as boring as it was. I think that will be where he is fondly remembered more than his exploits at cruiserweight, in big Frank's words cruiserweight and heavyweight is like "Primark and Harrods"

Glad Haye ended the reign of that freak show. Did a good thing taking out the trash there.

Super D Boon wrote:I think the British don't like a big mouth. The mouthing off and then to lose in the manner he did will sit very badly with the general pleblic.

Bruno was hardly impressive in his last effort against Tyson but he didn't do Hitler parodies, headless t-shirts and non-handshakes. Instead Bruno was a loveable dope, which is the way the British like their heavyweights to be. He is also remembered fondly for his assinine "where's 'arry" after every fight. Completely unfunny but Bruno was loved for that quote for some reason.

Good point well made but he most often quipped "You know what I mean,Arry?"-the "Where's Arry" occurred just the once, naturally enough, Harry was absent from the interviewing duties that day.Bruno knew full well that Carpenter would not be there, he was sending up his dopey reputation.

Ah right thanks for clearing up the misconception Andygf. This outght to be on QI that he only said "where's 'Arry" just once.

The whole "Arry" nonsense was never funny though...but WE British loved it!

I don't think Haye will be remembered anywhere near as well as the likes of Bruno or Cooper, or even Calzaghe for that matter.

Frankly, if he retires now, in 5-10 years time, I doubt he'd be remembered by the general public at all to be honest. The majority of people don't care about CW, so his success there will go largly unappreciated. It is the Valuev fight which put him on the map, and from then to now, he has just been a flash in the pan.

He is a good fighter, but hasn't fought regularly enough, or fought enough quality at HW to justify being thought of any higher. This may be partly due to the lack of depth in boxing, but on the other hand, his trash talking and T-shirts grates against the British mentality, and now that he has gone AWOL, this only makes him look more foolish and superficial.

I hope he comes back to win a few more credible HW fights, just to get some respect back. He is still a fairly fresh 31, he hasn't been in many wars, so coming back shouldn't be detrimental to his health as could be said about the likes of Hatton, and to my mind, he sort of owes the public and boxing in general to keep his head down and get back to boxing rather than talking.

Yes i think we are in agreement. Haye despite his brief but spectacular success at the weight will not be remembered as a cruiserweight but as a heavyweight champion who fell miserably in his shot at super stardom.

Just like Evander Holyfield, if you asked the casual sports fan on Evander they would say he was a great heavyweight. They're probably not even aware that before that he was easily the best ever cruiserweight too.

Afterall, apart from avid boxing followers who remembers Evander Holyfield as a cruiserweight legend?

Let's be honest taking out a Team Saulerand circus fighter was definately for the good of boxing, especially because it was in the Heavyweight division.

To be fair Haye perhaps didn't have a great HW legacy, he took on a mandatory and the guy that he had a bit of a grudge with, then he took on the best fight available to him.

I don't really see how he OWES the public anything, it's only £15 quid jeez, he did what he had to do against Valuev and Harrison and was impressive against Ruiz. He couldn't get passed the man who has made just about every fighter look more than ordinary... I don't really see how it's that bad personally. He did promise for a good fight and couldn't deliver, plenty of other people have done that.

Super D Boon wrote:Yes i think we are in agreement. Haye despite his brief but spectacular success at the weight will not be remembered as a cruiserweight but as a heavyweight champion who fell miserably in his shot at super stardom.

Just like Evander Holyfield, if you asked the casual sports fan on Evander they would say he was a great heavyweight. They're probably not even aware that before that he was easily the best ever cruiserweight too.

Afterall, apart from avid boxing followers who remembers Evander Holyfield as a cruiserweight legend?

The majorty of fans seem to know that about Haye now though because it massively overshadows his achievemnts at Heavy and people have talked about that a lot now. In comparison to Holyfield, his achievements at Heavy have been great, especially looking from the eyes of just sports fans. Being HW Champ plenty of times, being in great fights in Bowe, and being a conqueror of Tyson. People don't even to talk about his achievements at Cruiser when talking about him.

I didn't mean he owes the public financially, but I think he owes them a fight where he just shows up and backs up his words with action. To get back some credibility and respect.

The build up to the WK fight went wat OTT for my liking, which was only compounded by what he did (or didn't do) in the ring. Therefore, such is the chasm between his words and actions that I do think he should have at least one more fight just to set everything straight, otherwise he is in danger of being remembered for what he said on talk-shows rather than what he did in the ring, which would be a shame since he actually achieved a lot at CW.

The Harrison fight was a complete non-entity, if anything it was an exhbition to milk the title. Ruiz was a genuine mandatory fight against a faded former alphabet champion. That is not a HW record to write home about, he should look to add a few legit names to give his HW career a decent comparison to what he did at CW, then see how the land lies, and keep his mouth shut while he's doing it.

Agree with just about everything you say, however, I don't see how he OWES anyone anything. He's already given his part in boxing and been far more successful than most ever dream of.

If he wants to come back and rebuild thats his choice, but he doesn't owe the public anything, he's his own man, we pay to watch him. Fact is he's the guy that trains all day to get punched in the face, whilst we watch it for entertainment.

That is very true, Alex, he doesn't owe us anything, just like I don't owe anyone anything in my day job - after all that is what boxing is to him, his job.

Yes it is slightly different as he is in the entertainment business, but essentially he does it for himself.

It would be nice to see him beat a number of the contenders though, and show the British public, along with the sceptical Americans, the talent which we know he possesses, and that was often on display at Cruiserweight.

"Fact is he's the guy that trains all day to get punched in the face, whilst we watch it for entertainment".

Thats true, and I admit it is a bit strange to criticise the guy while I'm sitting behind a PC. However, I still think for him to come out with all the "I'm going to re-ignite the division" etc etc, making himself out to be some sort of Ali/Louis MK 2, and then start moaning about little toes once he has been shown up doesn't fly, and if I was in that position of frankly being humiliated, I'd want to set the record straight, even if it was against someone like Adamek or Chambers or Igbraimov or whoever, just to get it back on a positive note, and then see where to go after that.

Had he gone in there against WK, and toned down how great he is going to be, it would have been a lot more understandable. I know it was his mouth and bravado which got him the fight in the first place, but once it was secure he should have handled himself better. He set himself up for a fall, now we all wonder whether he will get up, and given everything addressed above, I think he has to, thats what I mean when I said he owes the public, in that he essentially owes himself to make up for his own ignorance and redeem himself in the eyes of the public.

Think I am with Nathan on this one, whilst I am always loath to be too critical of boxers the reality is Haye made great play of the fact he was going to reignite the division, he was going to send "boring" Wlad into retirement and he also made a lot of money out of people being willing to believe he would follow through on those words. Is inevitable when there is such a difference between what he promises and delivers, which was to be blunt no better than many of the guys he has constantly mocked.

Career wise he is a two weight belt holder and Britain ain't exactly spoilt with those so he will probably be viewed quite well in years to come, however personally think he would be wise to carry on for a couple more years because going out on such a whimper and showing a conspicuous lack of class in doing so is unlikely to endear him to too many folk.

When you're there, why not sell yourself as much as you can, especially it's not like he's in a division where he can get a load of big money fights, he had Ruiz a mandatory, he had Harrison a fight sold on grudge, what else was he going to do? The WBA were going to force him to fight Ruslan Chagaev, who no doubt is pretty good but we were gonna be a bit annoyed if he fought him over a Klit...

So he delivered the fight took it on 50/50 although he was bringing a title and the majority of the money, sold it as best he can. But come on, everyone MUST realise that the things he said was pure and simple to sell the fight. He's clearly not really a bad guy, and if you believe he is then you are entitled to your opinon, but I think it's very foolish to judge someone who is trying to sell themselves and there fight as best they can. Also part of it was to try and get under Wlad's skin, try and break the roboticness and make him fight on emotion, something that clearly worked in Degale- Groves. With Degale not using his head as much.

This whole mythical lack of class, think is a bit daft, he says that he wasn't 100% which is true having a broken bone means you aren't. He also said Wlad was the better fighter on the night, which was also true... Doesn't owe me anything and I bought all his fights, including his ones on Setanta.

I still maintain that Haye should reimburse me for the tawdry night I had at MEN Arena last year.Although it gave me an opportunity to visit Stockport and see family, so it was not a total washout...
Audley's purse should have been given to the fans.

I still believe that fighters in Hayes position, that make millions off the public and their fans, have a certain level of obligation to the fans. Especially when Haye spent so much time being a salesman and the great lengths he went to promote fights and to convince the public and his fans he was the saviour of the heavyweight division.

What I think rankled many fans, not so much in Britain where his support was generally strong, but outside Britain was that he was routinely criticising everyone else in the division as negative, boring and fighting bums when I cant honestly say Haye himself was doing any different. If you look at his whole heavyweight campaign you would have to say it was not particularlly enthralling or great value for the fans. There isnt a single one of those heavyweight fights I would rush back to watch in a million years. The blame isnt entirely on Hayes shoulders as opponents like Valuev, Harrison and Klitschko are hardly thrill a minte fighters themselves but speaking as someone who hasnt had a great deal of enthusiasm for the heavyweight division in many years now, I really dont see how Haye even remotely lived up to half of what he said or promised. When I think of his fights in general I think alot of talking, plenty of hype and promotion, but very little end producto or substance. In all my years of following boxing I dont think I have ever seen a mismatch like Haye v Harrison receive so much fanfare or hype. Its by no means the first time a fighter has taken on a less than live defence but the sheer marketing and advertising that went into it left me with the overall impression that the whole thing was a financial money making excercise and complex pr campaign with a boxing match as an afterthought.

The notion that boxers are out there putting their lives on the line for our entertainment is a somewhat romantacised idea. In truth most of them are out there to try and make money for themselves and because they enjoy competing. Not because they are being draggd out to the ring to entertain the mob. So whilst I dont believe boxers owe the fans bloody wars and boundless entertainment to the detriment of their own health, I also dont believe they are entitled to treat the fans who pay their wages and travel to support them with contemp and a "I dont owe anyone anything" kind of attitude.

Lewis Tyson for the time it happened? ( As a mismatch that received so much hype Colonial)

Also I suppose it's a fair arguement. But fact is Haye sat there and knew, he didn't have other big fights after the Klitschko's so he tried to make the most out of it all and I don't blame him. He's a fantastic salesman, it's not really his fault he wasn't exciting though, would we rather have seen him go after Harrison right from the off and get taken out by a huge left? (Unlikely I know)
I think you've got to put yourself in his shoes, it's easy being a fan and saying you should have fought him and him, but in reality it's a bit harder than that. Perhaps we should be angry at Naz for not giving it his all in training? Or be angry at Hatton for getting his tactics completely wrong?
Boxers don't know when there careers are going to end, it could be any moment so naturally they're gonna wanna make all the money they can. I don't think we can say to Haye you owe us a fight with Vitali or something like that, or you owe us a fight against some of the Americans to prove how good you are. I just think he's his own man and has no real obligations, he entertains us.

Cant agree that Lewis v Tyson comes close to the Haye v Harrison fight. Although Tyson had faded quite badly he was still a legend of the sport and was generally seen as a top 5 heavyweight at the time he faced Lewis.

Audley Harrison was a proven failure at the highest level who was not even seen as a top twenty rated heavyweight by most people. Tyson v Lewis was always a fight that was viable whereas the was an air of incredulity when Haye announced Harison as his next opponent.

I expect a certain amount of hype in fights but I dont like when the hype become almost more important than the fight itself which was the teritory Haye was dangerously close to occupying.

I dont expect Haye put his career on the line for his fans week in week out but I think its too easy to excuse a boxers every action as just part of the game. I think they have a certain level of obligation to the fans and supporters who follow them and pay their wages effectively. Whether or not Hayes behaviour and pr fell short of this is a matter of debate. I was never particularly on the Haye bandwagon and didnt really buy into his hype so consequently I wasnt particularly let down by non events like the Harrison fight or the damp squib in Hamburg. But I imagine there are many fans who either payed out money to watch or spent large amounts to travel and support him for these fights. I dont think its the correct or justifiable attitude to turn around to these fans and say they arent owed anything at all after generating all the hype that convinced them in the first place.

There is naturally a middle line to be drawn somewhere, and fans can generally be quite demanding and fickle so I would not advocaate the kind of attitude that boxers are simply tools of entetainment expected to deliver entertainment at their own risk for little in return on the other side of the argument.

As a side point I would also add that I think a great many fans did ultimately feel let down by Hattons performance against Pacquiao and especially Hamed after his retirement.

Yeah I guess there is a sort of middle line in it, but I gotta say, Haye isn't exactly FORCING people to come out to Germany. At no point did David Haye come into my room aim a shotgun at me and say buy me fights. Plus he can't do more than he knows, perhaps they were disappointing fights, looking back on it Harrison was always going to be a disappointment though I could hardly give him a chance at the time, also WK stylistically was completely wrong for Haye and I just think he didn't really know what to do when he was behind the jab. (Although he must have surely known what was coming)
So yes people can be dissapointed or angry with Haye, but really he's a guy who tried his best and failed and has perhaps lost the hunger and desire. He's done his part in my opinion and doesn't have any real obligations to do anything because like I said, perhaps it can be viewed as selfish or whatever but why should he have to do anything for the fans? They choose to buy his PPV they choose to go out to Germany and I'm guessing a lot of them had a good time in Hamburg even if the result didn't go the right way. I bought all of his fights and don't expect one last hurrah from him, I don't feel he owes me a penny, you get what you pay for really.
I mean surely everyone going to watch him fight in Hamburg wasn't thinking this is going to be the greatest fight of all time, they will be hoping for that. I can't believe Haye, as good a salesman as he is actually tricked people into it being such a fantasic fight because everyone knows boxing can be really really dull, but can also be the most amazing thing (Imo) on the planet at times.