The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub cf The Establishment Club

First topic message reminder :

Many of you will never have heard of the Establishment Club. It was a counter-establishment club founded by Peter Cook in the seedy parts of Soho in the 1960's. Born out of the satirical roots of Private Eye and That Was The Week That Was (a fantastic satirical BBC live show that pulled few punches). My Dad used to encourage me to watch it (but to be honest, I was a bit young - and in those days most eleven-year-olds would never have been up after 10.30).
But now of course, the Establishment Club is what it says on the tin. With spin-offs worldwide.

Turning to The Dew Drop Inn: Created by Gibson on the weekend of the Irish Grand Slam in '09, it used to be an anarchic mayhem which the Beeb 606 mods to their eternal credit allowed way too much licence. (another BBC tick). But now it's just a comfy self-joining, mutually-admiring, ed I withdraw this assetion] and smug bunch of the politburo from which no member of the v2 team from Hobo to the mods don't sup in mutual admiration.

Sorry to maintain my hereticism. But I'll still put my tuppthwth in the pub from time to time.

R.I.P Rava

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:All I wanted to do was explore the direction and purpose of the pub.

Why must it have either, Portnoy, how very pro-Establishment of you to assume that it would?!

Portnoy wrote:Personally I like to pop in from time to time, but I now find it to pompous and worthy.

So, hmm, let me get this strait, it was ok when you posted regularly in there, but now that you don't, it's not?

Portnoy wrote:On 606v1 it used to be a haven from wummers but to be honest there's not an excessive number of those on v2.

That's certainly how it started, but it moved way beyond that, but you already know that cos you were part of that experience

Portnoy wrote:I don't understand why the clique need to debate quietly in the pub when they could be doing so openly outside on existing posts.

What clique? it's self-selective and nobody can prevent anyone else from having a say - as you say, there is debate going on in there, mostly healthy, and according to the gospel of St Portnoy, that's a good thing? Most of us do contribute, some more heavily than others, altho it may be difficult to discern that cos it tends to be in areas of particular interest (ie Irish selection, Ireland to reach the semis, further Irish delusion, etc.! )

Portnoy wrote:Cue the facebook alternative.

I don't have FaceAche, nor any desire to get an account, so it'll be the main boards plus the pub for me - hope that's alright with you, Dai?

Well that's an Establishment diatribe As,

Let me respond.

Portnoy wrote:All I wanted to do was explore the direction and purpose of the pub.

Why must it have either, Portnoy, how very pro-Establishment of you to assume that it would?!

Because I am the antithesis of the Establishment. Otherwise I wouldn't be rocking the boat.

Portnoy wrote:Personally I like to pop in from time to time, but I now find it to pompous and worthy.

So, hmm, let me get this strait, it was ok when you posted regularly in there, but now that you don't, it's not?

I still pop in from time to time as well. But I stand by my comments.

Portnoy wrote:On 606v1 it used to be a haven from wummers but to be honest there's not an excessive number of those on v2.

That's certainly how it started, but it moved way beyond that, but you already know that cos you were part of that experience

True

Portnoy wrote:I don't understand why the clique need to debate quietly in the pub when they could be doing so openly outside on existing posts.

What clique? it's self-selective and nobody can prevent anyone else from having a say - as you say, there is debate going on in there, mostly healthy, and according to the gospel of St Portnoy, that's a good thing? Most of us do contribute, some more heavily than others, altho it may be difficult to discern that cos it tends to be in areas of particular interest (ie Irish selection, Ireland to reach the semis, further Irish delusion, etc.! )

St Portnoy is a bit strong.
I have no problem with the conversations going on in the bar, but I do find it disingenuous for parallel discussions about current articles to be held in camera as it were.

Portnoy wrote:Cue the facebook alternative.

I don't have FaceAche, nor any desire to get an account, so it'll be the main boards plus the pub for me - hope that's alright with you, Dai?

I avoid facebook as well As. Like the plague.
Thanks Eoin.

More than that Thom, the pub is for people who may well want to get to know each other. I don't represent the pub, I just post there. But it's something which is there for everyone on the site. Old regs and- potentially- new. If people feel like they can't join in then we're not doing it right.

The truth is though, that generally people who are overly aggressive or WUMs etc. are treated as unwelcome because such behaviour isn't really welcome. Most posters talk of an ethos of mutual respect. I've definitely got on the wrong side of the ethos at times being hot-headed and argumentative.

Tbh Portnoys, the reason people get annoyed at you is they perceive that you are throwing barbed, veiled insults at them when you start threads like this. No-one likes to be insulted after all.

Notch wrote: I'm a very outspoken, opinionated person with a talent of starting arguments and upsetting peoples delicate sensibilities and I tend to get on just fine in there.

Yes you are ya wee bollix but that's what friends are for and in the end it all ends in ...

Right, so the main gripe here is that people are discussing rugby topics in the pub rather than on the threads outside. But we don't just discuss these things in the pub; we also contribute to the articles 'outside.' I see no problem in discussing the same subject in more than one place.

Notch wrote:More than that Thom, the pub is for people who may well want to get to know each other. I don't represent the pub, I just post there. But it's something which is there for everyone on the site. Old regs and- potentially- new. If people feel like they can't join in then we're not doing it right.

The truth is though, that generally people who are overly aggressive or WUMs etc. are treated as unwelcome because such behaviour isn't really welcome. Most posters talk of an ethos of mutual respect. I've definitely got on the wrong side of the ethos at times being hot-headed and argumentative.

Tbh Portnoys, the reason people get annoyed at you is they perceive that you are throwing barbed, veiled insults at them when you start threads like this. No-one likes to be insulted after all.

Op:

Many of you will never have heard of the Establishment Club. It was a counter-establishment club founded by Peter Cook in the seedy parts of Soho in the 1960's. Born out of the satirical roots of Private Eye and That Was The Week That Was (a fantastic satirical BBC live show that pulled few punches). My Dad used to encourage me to watch it (but to be honest, I was a bit young - and in those days most eleven-year-olds would never have been up after 10.30).
But now of course, the Establishment Club is what it says on the tin. With spin-offs worldwide.

Turning to The Dew Drop Inn: Created by Gibson on the weekend of the Irish Grand Slam in '09, it used to be an anarchic mayhem which the Beeb 606 mods to their eternal credit allowed way too much licence. (another BBC tick). But now it's just a comfy self-joining, mutually-admiring, and smug bunch of the politburo from which no member of the v2 team from Hobo to the mods don't sup in mutual adiration.

Sorry to maintain my hereticism. But I'll still put my tuppthwth in the pub from time to time.

R.I.P Rava"

Not sure where the barb is.

I was just sticking a wet finger in the air to see which way the breeze is blowing.

Of course the best place to do that is in the open air..

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Right, so the main gripe here is that people are discussing rugby topics in the pub rather than on the threads outside. But we don't discuss only these things in the pub; we also contribute to the articles 'outside.' I see no problem in discussing the same subject in more than one place.

neither do I, it would only become a problem if something is said in the pub that is a relevant and good comment for debate and this gets missed on the topical thread. Although to be honest I have never seen that happen.

I think most people would resent being called mutually-admiring or smug. Indeed the reaction you've got here sort of proves that. You may not intend to antagonise, but unfortunately it seems like you have. I personally am not that bothered by this.

It's not the first time you've spoken about 'pub regs', for wont of a better word, as a smug clique. Unfortunately the more you offend them with this caricature, the more annoyed they get with you, which in turn feeds your (largely erroneous, in my view) perceptions of them. It's becoming a negative feedback loop.

I don't really have any interest in the pub so I don't really post in it. It probably is a clique, and people who aren't regs probably do get ignored sometimes. So what? I don't have a problem with its existence or the people who post on it.

A lot of the people who post in the pub are also some of the best rugby posters on the 'outside'. I remember being a bit annoyed once on 606v1 when the rugby board was being overrun by wummers and gavin henson articles. All the pub regs were just posting together on the pub, when where they were needed was doing quality rugby posts on the main board. It was like the surrendered to the wums and ran off to 'hide' together in the pub.

But that doesn't happen here. There's not as many wums. Most pub regs are posting loads on the rugby topics, but also talking in the pub about what they had for breakfast or whatever. It's not a problem.

But my point Thomond, is that I'd never have written the post had it not been for Rava feeling he'd have to leave.

The pub has to look at itself and discuss amongst the regulars it's purpose and its future.

To me it's lost its way. A rudderless ship on the Sargasso Sea.

p.s. "Portnoy,apologies for that comment it was out of line but you do really infuriate me sometimes. The pub in my view is for a group of people who have gotten to know each other both on and off the forum."

We both can antagonise. But I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing as a raised consciousness gets the brain cells working. And also the reason why my pub visits are now infrequent - because I don't like to stimulate debate that way. Just my way of releasing frustrations.

It's not an entity, but rather a group of people. Some leave, new ones come in. It has no real purpose other than to serve as a location for internet small talk and friendly banter. Sometimes friendships result from this. It's not unique, it tends to be very similar to other online communities in this regard.

Portnoy wrote: The pub has to look at itself and discuss amongst the regulars it's purpose and its future.

No it doesn't. If there is a consensus we will discuss it, if not we won't.

Portnoy wrote: To me it's lost its way. A rudderless ship on the Sargasso Sea..

It never had a 'way' it's a magical mystery tour, sometimes we go off at tangents, sometimes round in circles and end up were we started (Although that last bit is currently under discussion with Warren Gatlands lawyers due to potential copyright infringement)

At the end of the day it is ONE discussion thread on an internet forum with under 3,000 members across all the 'boards' -

Feckless Rogue wrote:

A lot of the people who post in the pub are also some of the best rugby posters on the 'outside'. I remember being a bit annoyed once on 606v1 when the rugby board was being overrun by wummers and gavin henson articles. All the pub regs were just posting together on the pub, when where they were needed was doing quality rugby posts on the main board. It was like the surrendered to the wums and ran off to 'hide' together in the pub.

Feckless, you are entirely right in what you say here. There was a period on 606 when the pub sort of went into itself as wums took over the board. That was recognised by a number of people within the pub, who then made a concerted effort to 'take back the board' with sensible articles. A lesson was learned from this about contributing to the discussions on the board and not just posting in the pub, and I doubt the board will be surrendered so lightly to the wums in the future.

Portnoy, your gripe seems to me to essentially be what feckless has summarized, that regulars in the pub fail to contribute to the success of the main board. The thing is, you actually know that this is not true. As a regular reader of the pub threads you will have undoubtedly have seen many occasions where 1 poster points out a thread with a decent debate and directs others there by posting the link, leading to a number of pub regulars contributing fully.

I genuinely do not see what you are trying to achieve with this thread other than antagonizing people, which you are clearly going to do with your choice of words to describe those who simply may have a different view of things than you.

Portnoy - I'm disappointed that once again you're attacking the very thing which many others - you included have had some benefit from.

For the doubters, I posted this when the last pub closed. I hope it explains the pubs somewhat:

Dear Regulars,



As designated “landlady” I was asked to come up with some sort of farewell speech. A fitting tribute to what is actually an extraordinary institution. I thought a lot about what I’d say, and I guess the best I can do is make an honest gesture if nothing else. So what follows is a personal epitaph to the 606 Virtual Rugby Pub.

2008 and the beginning of 2009 were difficult for me personally, so the potential Irish Grand Slam in the Six Nations was a welcome distraction. Coincidentally and somewhat frustratingly my TV blew up during the tournament, so I had to watch the rest of it online. It’s impossible to watch rugby when the pitch is blue, and the players pink and green, but it was through my TV’s demise, that I stumbled upon this forum. I don’t want to go on about 606 in itself as such, because to me it was only the platform that enabled our motley crew of rugby supporters to come together in appreciation for The Beautiful Game. Besides, this has already been touched upon through other posts previously. I think that viewing our pub just as an online forum tends to put a negative spin on things because of the cynicism surrounding internet social networking. What I would like to do is express my thanks to you, the regulars, who’ve made, and continue to make “The Pub” what it is. Not only for myself personally, but as a positive example of the generosity in human spirit and of people coming together regardless of the means to which they do this.

Considering I come from such a fragmented and dysfunctional one myself, what I find, is that we are actually like a family. I don’t just mean in its set up - from the patriarch, to the extended members, to the youngsters that need a clip around the ear hole occasionally; but also in the way that everyone, whether they’ll admit it or not, actually cares about each other. Someone will often ask in the pub where someone else is because they haven’t posted for a while; and we’ve all shared in the grief, joy and frustration of a fellow regular. Like any family, we’ve been through the ups-and-downs that life (and rugby) has given us, and through it we’ve all kept in touch and supported each other. What non-regular readers aren’t aware of is what goes on offline. Regulars putting their trust in friendly strangers by generously offering them bed and breakfast, the exchanging of text messages, emails, pictures and telephone calls, meeting up in pubs, clubs and stadiums, and sharing what at times can be very personal individual experiences as well as the mutual appreciation of rugby. Of course there are disagreements; it would be naïve of me to suggest otherwise, and there have been times when I felt like the pub was a thankless task. With such a large diverse group, people will disagree or even dislike one another, but harmony is maintained because we have the understanding to overlook squabbles and foibles, not forsaking the relationships we have with each other. So you see we are like a family, at least that’s how I view it. For someone who doesn’t really have much of one, it’s somewhat comforting to know that those who were once strangers are now good friends who can be relied upon as if we’re related.

When I think of how the last two years have developed for me, I really can’t begin to describe it. I don’t want to get too personal or sentimental, but being part of this has changed me in such a way that previously, I couldn’t even begin to imagine. When I first saw 606 I just “lurked” for a while as I simply didn’t have the confidence to post anything because I just didn’t think that I, or what I had to say, was worth the attention. To go from that, to hugging Tommy Bowe at Dublin airport for me really is a dream come true (and let’s be honest, it was for him as well!). I mention that meeting because not only did it seem as if God really had forced us together to ensure I wouldn’t miss the opportunity, but it conjured up some courage from somewhere inside me to do something about it. I guess Gibbo’s perpetual mantra of “Believe!” has some truth to it. Actually it was Gibbo I text immediately afterwards to share my joy. To go from just lurking to that meeting simplifies my experience somewhat, because the work I’ve had to do on myself has been hard, and at times painful, but the benefits have begun to show. I really couldn’t have done any of it without your support and encouragement. For this, and the wonderful memories I have to treasure, I will be eternally grateful.

Some may be concerned about the closure of this 606, and look at the move to 606v2 with some trepidation, but if the last two years or so are anything to go by, how we communicate with each other, and how often will be irrelevant. The relationships that have been forged on these pages will endure for some time.

So before the pub is closed for the last time, I want to dedicate this tune to you all, and to those who’ve been and gone. It’s about love and reconciliation, and it was produced by the finest band in the world. Afterall this pub and its patrons deserve only the finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVepnFII34I

I hope to see you all over at the new place.

Cari , I can't open that link at work, but I'm presuming given the description that it must be Metallica's enter sandman, but that's a beautiful post

Rodders - it's U2's Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own

Cari wrote:Rodders - it's U2's Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own

that was my next guess...

roddersm wrote:Cari , I can't open that link at work, but I'm presuming given the description that it must be Metallica's enter sandman, but that's a beautiful post

Rodders are you joking? Why would she conclude such a spectacular piece of oratory with a heavy metal song? Top lass Cari

It's Master of Puppets rodders.

Damn, I just realised PastorOfMuppets would have been a great username

Notch wrote:It's Master of Puppets rodders.

Thats about love and reconciliation right??

As it says in the song;

"Eat your breakfast on a mirror."

Notch wrote:As it says in the song;

"Eat your breakfast on a mirror."

There you go then....

Willy of course I was joking....I actually thought it was Thin Lizzy The boys are back in town.....

Why would you eat your breakfast off a mirror? Is it like The Beat song Mirror in the Bathroom "...you can watch yourself whilst you are eating..."? I wouldn't want to watch myself eating Weetabix

Things may have been clearer, Cari, if Notch got the lyric right

"Chop your breakfast on a mirror"

(Sorry to be pedantic, but) it's "chop" your breakfast on a mirror. Although I kinda like the "eat your breakfast on a mirror". It's like a Sunday morning when you REALLY need to do the washing up and you're all out of plates and bowls...

EDIT: other pedants got there first

I don't care. It still doesn't constitute normal behaviour!

Of course, that lyric makes it much more obvious that its a cocaine reference but anyway...

I did read Cari's fine words at the closure of the last v1 pub.

Unfortunately it did take a couple of weeks before grandma 606 died.

There were a few people at the funeral though.

You know, I even checked it before I posted. Just decided to leave it in.

It's like a voice in my head was saying; "Notch! Summon the pedants!"

Spoiler:

Portnoy - I think you'll find that speech was posted on the penultimate page of what was the very last pub. Anyway, that's besides the point which you seem to missing which is why I posted my speech in the first place.

I knew what you meant Notch....still wouldn't eat my Weetabix off a mirror though.

Is that Sean Bean summoning the pedants in that piccie?

Oh gawd, she's off.

You're surely not still annoyed at that Portnoys?

It was decided that if 606 closed, this forum would have a better chance of taking off if we moved over before then. Sort of a transition period.

Plus the BBC were really vague about the exact date of the closure and most people decided to leave on their own terms.

greybeard wrote:Oh gawd, she's off.

I never said anything!!!

Cari wrote:Is that Sean Bean summoning the pedants in that piccie?

Indeed! Sounding the great horn of Rohan

Cari wrote:

greybeard wrote:Oh gawd, she's off.

I never said anything!!!

Careful now

Cari wrote:

greybeard wrote:Oh gawd, she's off.

I never said anything!!!

It was the way you didn't say it.

I only say this of course whilst some regz may just be realising that they are not in the pub.

But this emphasises my point. The the purpose of the pub surely should be for friendly banter and un-posted rugby topics?

Notch wrote:You're surely not still annoyed at that Portnoys?

It was decided that if 606 closed, this forum would have a better chance of taking off if we moved over before then. Sort of a transition period.

Plus the BBC were really vague about the exact date of the closure and most people decided to leave on their own terms.

Exactly. The date was only given a few days before and the time wasn't given at all, it just closed. No one really knew what was happening. It seemed logical to transfer ourselves over to here to establish a new pub to avoid people being in a kind of limbo.

greybeard - ah OK, so not saying anything is lewd behaviour...? Think I better stay off here when Tommy and Wally are back for Ireland....

The purpose of the pub is for whatever people decide it to be for really, as far as I'm concerned. You don't go into a real pub thinking; "what's the agenda for this conversation?'

It's just for shooting the breeze really.

Notch wrote:You're surely not still annoyed at that Portnoys?

OK I'm starting to feel the Metallica connection again. I'm not sure if the song is The Unforgiven or whereever I may roam though....

Portnoy, are you saying that no thread should go off topic other than the pub? So WTF did you start this thread for? Incidentally I'm well aware that this isn't the pub thread.

Portnoy, when you go down your local and there's a table of folks talking about say, the London riots do you wander over and say "Look, that's already being discussed on Question time at 19:00 BBC1, can you all please start talking about something else? and stop being so damn inclusive amongst yourself!".

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:You're surely not still annoyed at that Portnoys?

OK I'm starting to feel the Metallica connection again. I'm not sure if the song is The Unforgiven or whereever I may roam though....

I think we've been stuck in sad but true territory this entire thread.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Portnoy, when you go down your local and there's a table of folks talking about say, the London riots do you wander over and say "Look, that's already being discussed on Question time at 19:00 BBC1, can you all please start talking about something else? and stop being so damn inclusive amongst yourself!".

Priceless!

TheGreyGhost wrote:Portnoy, when you go down your local and there's a table of folks talking about say, the London riots do you wander over and say "Look, that's already being discussed on Question time at 19:00 BBC1, can you all please start talking about something else? and stop being so damn inclusive amongst yourself!".

That's actually quite funny.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Portnoy, when you go down your local and there's a table of folks talking about say, the London riots do you wander over and say "Look, that's already being discussed on Question time at 19:00 BBC1, can you all please start talking about something else? and stop being so damn inclusive amongst yourself!".

Portnoy wrote:But this emphasises my point. The purpose of the pub surely should be for friendly banter and un-posted rugby topics?

No, it's for whatever they want to talk about.

Cari wrote:Portnoy - I'm disappointed that once again you're attacking the very thing which many others - you included have had some benefit from.

I'm not attacking Cari.

I'm trying to explore openly the progress of the pub.

But you are attacking it. What on earth do you mean by progress? It's just a thread on fecking forum not a business! Besides, most "developments" with regards to the pub occur off line - if people want them to.

No I'm not Cari.

You are choosing to read it that way.

My main theme was to examine the establishmentisation of Da Pub.

Apparently feckless rogues like myself are considered disruptive. But there again you wouldn't want everyone in any society to go along with the masses would you?