BRITISH SM SUPER 8/Head-to-Head

Introducing
Nigel Benn(s)
Chris Eubank(s)
Michael Watson(s)
Steve Collins(s)
Joe Calzaghe(s)
Carl Froch(s)
Richie Woodhall(s)
Robin Reid(s)

I read with 'interest' the age old "Steve Collins would have beaten Benn and Eubank at any stage of their careers" snit-fest and wondered how people thought the likes of Froch would have fared against the cream of the 1990's British SM crop. Then if figured I'd thrown in a few other names and see if it generated any interest.

I'm aware it's unlikely as...

A/ I wrote it and

B/ Everyone knows Richie Woodhall cleans up in the lot of 'em about half an hour and still has time to avenge his loss to Roy Jones Jr

Cheers

Alright Dave - long time no see.

I reckon Calzaghe would be favourite just - with Eubank second. Froch 3rd.

All prime of course.

Dave

Where have you been? Have you only just recovered from the embarassing performance by Haye!?

Woodhall 2nd round KO vs All of em. FACT!!!! END OF!!!!!!!!!!

rowley wrote:Woodhall 2nd round KO vs All of em. FACT!!!! END OF!!!!!!!!!!

rowley wrote:Woodhall 2nd round KO vs All of em. FACT!!!! END OF!!!!!!!!!!

I'm stunned, shocked and aghast at how you think any of them make it out of the first round to be honest!

Calzaghe doesn't lose to any of them beyond that it's a real toss up between Watson, Benn, Eubank and Froch in head to head match ups with Woodhall, Collins and Reid trailing in their wake.

Would love to see this, Calzaghe fav, but Benn,Collins and Froch would be the great fights to watch

Seanusarrilius wrote:Would love to see this, Calzaghe fav, but Benn,Collins and Froch would be the great fights to watch

What a great semi final four that would be!

Whilst I would echo the general sentiments that Calzaghe starts as favourite what is interesting about tournament formats like this and make comparisons difficult is a fighter is required to fight tough fights back to back, Eubank acknowledges in his book that whilst you do the same things in training for all fighters the perceived risk of the fight dictates the intensity with which you do it and it is having back to back tough camps and tough fights that can quickly put miles on the clock or cause unexpected results.

Given this would back Joe but would be with no surprise if along the way of winning this he picked up a loss somewhere along the line.

coxy0001 wrote:Dave

Where have you been? Have you only just recovered from the embarassing performance by Haye!?

Bloody hell Coxy, I got over that about a day afterwards. Wasn't me fighting so I have nothing to be ashamed about. Besides, I support Liverpool so I'm used to big talk and crushing disappointment.

Been mental at work running a dept with a 60% cut in staffing for the past three weeks, been on holiday and, to be fair, a quick shufty at the boards did little to inspire me to hang about. Obviously this article isn't going to buck the trend but I managed to grab a half hour breather so I thought I'd see what was shaking.

poor wodhall wouldn't win a fight

Collins doesnt really qualify as hes not British. Not sure a guy who fought with Shamrocks shaved into his head and wore tartan trunks would be inclined to take up British citizenship even for a tournament such as this.

If we are talking everyone at peak I would make Calzaghe a handy favourite in this, potentially going unbaten. He has the work rate, consistency and all round game.

Outside of that its less clear. Reid would go at the bottom with Woodhall just above. In a tournament system its hard to seperate Watson, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Froch for me. I tend to think the fighters present are unfavourable to Benn who was more reliant on his power and most of the guys in here have a good chin. He was knocked out by Watson and Eubank and I suspect he might come off second best in brawl with Collins and Froch also.

I would be inclined to put Eubank second behind Calzaghe but his inconsistency and lanziness could see him drop decisions all over the place potentially. However if he managed to bring his best consistently then he would go in second for me. But Collins/Froch/Benn/Watson/Eubank are largely pick em kind of fights where I dont think any one of them would emerge as a clear second to Calzaghe.

Seanusarrilius wrote:poor wodhall wouldn't win a fight

Durr, we've already established (via Ralphy) tha Richie hammers Benn inside two rounds.

Surprised no-one's given more props to Watson. Beat Benn and was coasting to a great win v Eubank before THAT shot. Tidy boxer with a nice array of punches and great engine. Who's to say he doesn't flummox Froch (who is looking to get KD'd hanging his chin out and left hand down) or outbox Collins?

Colonial, Collins would enter for the money (mercenary)...otherwise, I'm struggling to pick an eighth

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Calzaghe doesn't lose to any of them beyond that it's a real toss up between Watson, Benn, Eubank and Froch in head to head match ups with Woodhall, Collins and Reid trailing in their wake.

Think you're over building JC a bit. Lets not forget that he didn't exactly have an iron chin, got dropped by Mitchell/RJJ/Bhop from memory? I'd fancy the others who could bang (and most of them could) to have him in trouble, not saying they'd stop him but would fancy JC to hit the canvas at some point.

Would be surprised if he kept his precious 0 intact as there's more quality fighters there than he ever fought in his 45-or-so fight career

How about Herol Graham if you wanted an all British list? Didnt spend overly long a Super Middle but am sure he would be a good addition to this lot and could have made the step up if needed?

Over building JC in what way? He would be a heavy favourite to win against any of the fighters mentioned and yes he did have an iron chin, he was knocked down by two very good shots against Hopkins but at no stage during his career did he look like getting stopped. Aside from Benn can't imagine any of the other fighters having the power to stop him and even then Benn wasn't a huge puncher at super middleweight.

Hey Davey Boy, Steve Collins is Irish and he'd beat the rest of them any time, any place and on the same night.....FACTO!!!!

Calzaghe not having an iron chin?? That's a first. In a 45 fight career he went down 3 times approx? Hopkins ones were very good shots and RJJ he didnt see coming. Calzaghe is lauded for having good whiskers.

Ali is famous for having an iron chin and he went down a few times. Hitting the canvas a few times in your career doesnt mean you cant take a punch well.

Strongback wrote:Hey Davey Boy, Steve Collins is Irish and he'd beat the rest of them any time, any place and on the same night.....FACTO!!!!

Listen, when I watch the British weather reports, Ireland's on there so Collins can just suck it otherwise he's stuck in a neverending Super 2 with Brian Magee!!! O'FACTO!

Benn could potentially have a rough time of it as Reid and Woodhall are the only ones I would say he beats for sure. Given that the other guys all had good chins and Super Middleweight robbed Benn of some of his power then its possible he struggles. Have to also consider he has losses to Eubank, Watson and Collins (albeit faded) there already and I would make Froch favourite over him.

Lets not lie, Calzaghe was wobbled against Brewer and clung on immediately after the knockdown.

When was the last time BHop or RJJ ever knocked anyone down?!

I'm not saying it was like glass, but if you said who had the better chin out of Eubank, Froch and JC you'd have JC at the bottom of the pile. He was more elusive than the aforemention 2 and i can't remember going "wow, how on earth did he stay upright after taking that kinda punch"

Feel free to regail me with how he got hit with the kitchen worktops and sinks all in one go and remained standing.

To be fair Coxy both the Hopkins and Jones knock downs came in the first round when it is possible there was an element of being caught cold and towards the end of Joe's career, he would not be the first guy to start going over as he gets on in years, when you stop getting out of the way of shots you would normally avoid and that, hell even Tua has been over recently and nobody would describe him as anything other than sturdy.

Three times in 46 fights is not bad at all and as only one came when he was at his best think it is fair to say Joe had a decent set of whiskers

Froch was floored by Taylor who wasn't noted for having Kryptonite in his fists. Froch may have a great chin but he gets far too often...even old man Johnson hit him half a dozen times. Can he withstand the bombs some of these guys throw? Wouldn't put my house on it...oh, and he wasn't put over by Brewer!

coxy0001 wrote:Lets not lie, Calzaghe was wobbled against Brewer and clung on immediately after the knockdown.

When was the last time BHop or RJJ ever knocked anyone down?!

I'm not saying it was like glass, but if you said who had the better chin out of Eubank, Froch and JC you'd have JC at the bottom of the pile. He was more elusive than the aforemention 2 and i can't remember going "wow, how on earth did he stay upright after taking that kinda punch"

Feel free to regail me with how he got hit with the kitchen worktops and sinks all in one go and remained standing.

Froch was wobbled against Taylor and went down - I still rate his chin though. All 3 of them could take a serious whack.

Difficult to say with the chins. I rate them all pretty highly overall.

Froch has been down vs Taylor

Calzaghe down against Brewer, Hopkins and Jones

Eubank down vs Calzaghe and Collins

Collins down against Eubank and Cummings

Flash knockdowns in most cases rather than genuinely devastating punches.

Have seen Eubank and Collins take much heavier punches than the ones that floored them. (Remember Collins runing full pelt into a Eubank right hand at the start of their first fight or Eubank absorbing some bombs of Thompson?).

Fer gawds sake, Calzaghe went over against Byron Mitchell NOT Charles Brewer...how many more times!?

DAVE667 wrote:Fer gawds sake, Calzaghe went over against Byron Mitchell NOT Charles Brewer...how many more times!?

I always get confused, i've probably written both the right and wrong fighter as well.

Point is JC was elusive, i still maintain that although he could take a shot he's not in the league of say a Froch or Vitali K when it comes to wearing several monsters during the course of a fight.

And the RJJ wasn't even a punch, he basically got "wristed" with no chance for RJJ to even roll/turn through the punch etc!

Most of Calzaghes opponents have merged into the same guy for me. Was he down against Salem/Ashira aswell at one point?

I think Collins v Watson would be a monster of a fight.

Froch v Eubank being the worst with roughly 12 punches each being thrown throughout. The posturing might be interesting though?

Colonial Lion wrote:Most of Calzaghes opponents have merged into the same guy for me. Was he down against Salem/Ashira aswell at one point?

I think Kabery Salem may have had him on the floor although I can't recall if it was due to a punch or the culmination of all the headbutting. Dreadful fight, I nearly wept with frustaration at Frank Warren's matchmaking with a view to showcasing Calzgahe's talent after the Lacey beatdown. SRL was over in the UK to see first hand what all the fuss was about. There's a picture of him with Calzaghe post fight...at least I think it's Calzaghe, I might be getting confused with John Merrick

JC was on the way to stopping Ashira after about five one-sided rounds and then he broke his hand resulting in a dire showing for the remainder of the fight. Didn't look like hitting the deck in that fight unless it was to take a power nap.

Still think Watson provides a shock and with a decent draw makes it to the final.

The fact Jones hit him with his forearm is what put Calzaghe down, you can a lot more momentum into a larger surface area.

coxy0001 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Fer gawds sake, Calzaghe went over against Byron Mitchell NOT Charles Brewer...how many more times!?

And the RJJ wasn't even a punch, he basically got "wristed" with no chance for RJJ to even roll/turn through the punch etc!

Caught cold/Off balance/Flash knockdown. Could have been either of these. I'd need to watch it again to confirm - but one thing I am sure of - it wasnt a knockdown due to a flush punch on his jaw due from not having a good chin.

Watson you would have to favour to beat both Benn and Eubank notwithstanding an uppercut out straight out of hell, having gotten the better of those two would give him a good chance against Froch too and he simply has too much skill, strength and durability for Woodhall, Reid and Collins. A dark horse of the eight without doubt.

I would tend to see Watson v Eubank as a 50/50 kind of fight capable of going either way.

Would make Watson favourite over Benn but would be interested to see him against a more measured Benn that wasnt as prone to punching himself out.

I see Watson beating Eubank on points more often than not but it all depends on whether Eubank can land that knockout punch which we all know he's capable of.

Agree about Watson, barring getting beaten by the excellent McCallum he certainly had the measure of Benn/Eubank (save for one robbery and an uppercut from hell).

Think him vs Collins/JC would be warfare and to be honest. Close points decision for either Watson/JC (pickem in my eyes) and he'd bludgeon Collins to a wide UD but wouldn't be able to get the guy outta there.

Difficult to say. A third installment would have been interesting and if Eubank had managed to win again I think that would answer the question with more finality. Out of the 24 rounds they fought Watson probably won about 14 of them if you look at it that way, so definately a case for him winning on points. But Eubank was the one who managed to find the win first time out and find the KO punch when he needed it so that probably evens it up for the most part.

If you want to make it an all British affair then Collins can't be in this list. Chuck in Herol Graham. Am sure he'd a have liked his chances given that he did a better job against McCallum than Watson did. Also fought at SM at the end of his career, he would not have minded bulking up for this tournament I'm sure.

I know you guys view Collins as a big step below the Watson/Benn/Eubank rivalry but think its worth considering how Watson and Collins fared against McCallum when they both faced him around the same time. Personally I thought Collins gave much the better account of himself in the fight which is part of the reason I dont think hes drastically below the others. I dont think they beat him with certainty, and if they do I imagine it would be by a couple of rounds rather tha a landslide.

Stylistically when you have someone like Collins with a great chin, engine and workrate it tends to make for an uncomfortable night for all but the very best fighters. When you consider that Benn punched himself out against both Eubank and Watson with a rather simplistic attempt to get them out early which failed, then you have to wonder why things might not be so different with collins, who equally I cant see being gotten rid of early on and capable of absorbing plenty of Benn punishemnt. I think Benn could easily fall into the same trap of simply punching himself out against a durable fighter.

With Eubank, I just think Collins style and workrate really makes him uncomfortable and he runs the risk of being outworked if he doesnt keep his own workrate high. I would probably make Eubank favourite, but I think the score would be along the 115-113 kind of level with Collins nicking his fair share of the rounds through agression and workrate and Eubank relying on convincing the judges with quality over quantity.

Doesn't factor into for a head to head match up unfortunately Colonial, Watson and Collins fought with completely different styles and it figures that McCallum struggles less with a more stylish fighter in Watson although do think Collins performance gets blown out of all proportion, he won 2/3 rounds at the most.

Yes but equally Eubank struggles less with more stylish fighters in my view. The McCallum fight is ust one part of it. Certainly think cards were generous to McCallum in that one and the fight was alot closer than they suggest. McCallum deserved to win but after after the opening few rounds where Collins was beaten to the punch, the fight became much closer with Collins coming on the stronger at the finish.

Again I would cite this as a key strength against both Benn and Eubank. Benns stamina was questionable as were his tactics at times. If he could punch himself out after 4/5 rounds against Watson and even more worryingly, punch himself out against a low workrate fighter like Eubank then I see no reason why the same could not have happened against an equally durable fighter like Collins. Yes its possible he could stop Collins early but its not something I would bet on.

I fust dont see agreat deal in Collins career overall to say he was far below the others. He came up short several times undoubtadly, though the Kalmbay fight and especially Johnson fight could have gone his way. If we were harsh we could say the same of Watson who has a 1-3 record at world level. But as you know, that doesnt paint the full picture.

Anyhow, dont have any problems with one holding the view that Eubank/Watson/Benn beat Collins. I just dont think its one sided and my gut feeling is there would only be a few rounds in it. If Kalambay and Johnson can only nick it by a couple of rounds and McCallum has to work hard to win then Im not sure Eubank/Benn/Watson would be any different. Of the three would actually say Watson has the best style to beat Collins with the right balance of skills and workrate. But the other two have definate weaknesses that could be exposed to a fighter of Collins attributes.

Collins did come up short at world level and compared to Benn and Eubank his overall resume doesn't compare, think that Watson and especially Eubank beat him comfortably but with Benn you never really know, have to imagine the Benn who beat McClellan gets the job done inside the distance.

The McCallum fight is the one that usually gets brought up but don't think he did any better than Watson did although saw the final bell and would suggest that Watsons performances against Eubank and Benn are more impressive than Collins over the pair.

Don't want to get into this debate again but do feel that Collins is an over rated average fighter who fought Eubank and Benn at the perfect time.

The Benn who beat McClellan I don't believe beats Collins given that Benn was passed his supposed best and showing some serious signs of wear and tear even in this fight. It was his best win but the win of a steely determined shop worn warrior rather than a dazzling display by a boxer at the peak of his powers.

Collins' resume is pretty good and can't see why it doesn't level that of Eubank or Benn by a lot of people. Collins had decent wins especially the Kulumbay. If you look at Benn and Eubank there aren't exactly many wins that stand out, Eubank has Benn and Watson (who he arguably should have lost to in the first fight), Benn has McClellan maybe Barkely, other than that none of the boxers mentioned have stand out impressive records but fail to see the quality issue being highly in favour of Eubank and Benn. They're all pretty much at a level with Eubank arguably having the worst record. What with Benn saying he fights "Mexican road sweepers" kinda sums it up.

McClellan was a better fighter and far bigger puncher than Collins, can't really understand how Collins beats him if Gerald couldn't.

When did Collins beat Kulambay? His best wins are over past their best versions of Eubank and Benn which in no compare to to the respective best wins of the pair.

Eubank- Benn, Watson, Malinga, Holmes and Rocchigiani
Benn- McClellan, Barkley, De Witt and Malinga

Not to mention that the fighters they beat beyond that were better than the likes of Pyatt who is in Collins top 5 wins.

Joe Calzaghe would win. Steve Collins would of come 2nd if he was aloud to compete but the fact that he is Irish and this is a BRITISH SM SUPER 8/Head-to-Head means he would of not been in it. Chris Eubank 3rd

Regards

Actually got it wrong with the Kulumbay thing but anyway why do you always have to have the last word?

The version of Benn that beat McClellan was seriously worn he won that fight with sheer guts and willpower also the fact that it was McClellan's first fight at Super middle tarnishes it a bit and McClellan had something of the Jeff Lacy about him in that he was badly overhyped.

Besides, Collins was unlucky against both Johnson and Kulambay and that needs to be taken into account as does the fact that Benn properly lost the first fight to Malinga but was given a gift and that was before the McClellan fight. Barkley was borderline shot and DeWitt for crying out loud was a nobody. The names on Eubank's resume just proves my point that his biggest wins were against domestic rivals and there's nothing special about Roccigiani.

Who the hell is Holmes anyway? If that's the way you're gonna play it then I'll add Cornelius Carr. Chris Pyatt was also a decent win for Collins.

If you consider that Collins did a double on both Benn and Eubank then Collins' record is certainly comparible and sneaks ahead of both Eubank and Benn from a legacy standpoint.

Anything else you say now doesn't count because I'm away for a few days!

I CAN'T HEAR YOU! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA! LA! LA! LA!

I didnt realise Cabra, Dublin, Ireland was part of the UK now

Silly me...

Strongback wrote:Hey Davey Boy, Steve Collins is Irish and he'd beat the rest of them any time, any place and on the same night.....FACTO!!!!

I agree apart from Joe Calzaghe

If we go down the route of over turning results based on personal opinion i'll overturn both Eubank wins for Collins then which leaves his resume reading as two wins over a shop worn Benn.

You seem to have an excuse for absolutely everything, you're clearly spot on that every win that Benn and Eubank hold was over a shot nobody sounds somewhat like Collins when you put it like that, you pinpoint him losing to Kulambay, Johnson and McCallum as if it's some sort of achievement, he lost all three for gods sake and deservedly so. If you don't know who Lindell Holmes is how can you possibly comment on him and would quite easily suggest that a former long standing world champion is a better win than Cornelius Carr. From a legacy standpoint no wins over Eubank and Benn do not put Collins ahead as they have to be taken in context of where they were in their careers and if we're brutally honest who the hell cares about Steve Collins anyway.

The last part of your post shows your immaturity and darn right naivety so i'll sit back and debate the points in question rather than trying to bypass the fact you're talking absolute BS as usual.