The game that dare not speak its name : Ireland v England 27 August

First topic message reminder :

This is a match between the two top European sides. Neither of which can harbour realistic hopes of ulimate success.
But local bragging rights always count for something.

England need to lay the GS demons to rest.
Ireland have less to prove (especially if they beat France).

But momentum is everything - even if not in this case to the RWC, then the next four years where I'd hope to see this fixture as the final in 2015.

Last time out Ireland stood on England's throats and squeezed the life out of them.
But MJ will be expecting to restore pride and to win in Dublin.

And DK will not be ignorant to this.

So that makes it a full-on Test Match. Like it or like it not.
Irrespective of the RWC.

It means more to England, but momentum matters.

Pete,how could you not play Trimble? He has been the best player of the summer!

Why do I see D'Arcy as the spent fag-end of a hurricane? Maybe I'm wrong: it might have been the eye of the storm that is just passing over and there is another fierce final tempest to endure before the storm blows itself out?

Darcy's main strength was that he could truck it up the middle this did a few things

a) suck in defenders
b) gain yards
c) create quick ball

recently (the last 2 years) Darcy's carries haven't managed to get any of those 3 things, there's no point in making 3 yards but the ball being slow, I'd prefer no yards but quick ball for the next carry (increases the likelihood of a good carry in the next phase)

If people are worried about Wallace's physicallity (firstly you shouldn't be), secondly Murray isn't a sweeper he is a 9 who stays in the line providing extra defense between the outer fringe and 12. In attack if one is worried about having someone taking the ball up there are a few things to consider. Bowe runs inside lines like few other wingers and is very good at appearing on the shoulders of the midfield and finding spaces between centres or 10 and 12 or 10 and 9. Also, our backrow are excellent carriers and frequently in open play will appear in midfield to carry the ball, this lends another option as Wallace can stand deeper off Sexton and Sexton has the option of hitting Wallace/Ferris/Heaslip flat in midfield or Paddy Wallace deep and release outside backs depending on how Sexton reads the game and defense

Thomond-
Sorry didn't see your post.
I think Trimble has been our best back so far but he has played all of the previous 3 international warm up games and I think he should be given a rest before the RWC.

I think Kearney, Murphy, Earls and Bowe all need the game time more.

Fair enough.

eirebilly wrote:I am torn between D'Arcy and Paddy. Right now i would start with Paddy as D'Arcy has'nt played well for Ireland for some time. That said though, Paddy is still a very good player to bring on when the going gets tough as he is a very good impact sub. 12 is a real concern for me leading up to the RWC.

Eire - reckon it will be Darcy. he is 1st choice in Kidney's eyes and needs game time. Don't write him off yet !

I just hope D Wallace, Ferris & Bowe are up to a full run out.

Ireland will completely smash and outwit us, but it won't matter because we won't meet them in the RWC. We've got France's number too, another semi-final beckons

Hurely, I just havent seen D'Arcy do much for Ireland for some time. His impact has seemed to have left him since that broken arm. His ball skills also seem to have deserted him somewhat, far too many handling errors.
Personally i think that he is lucky to be in the squad.

Eire - agreed he is not playing as well as of old. I am not a Paddy Wallace basher, I just honestly rate Darcy higher. he has been written off before and has come back.
Maybe its just wishful thinking but I hope he comes good again - and soon.
Personally - having watched a lot of Leinster this yr, I think McFadden should have been given a run at 12 sooner. Too late now for that though.

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Personally - having watched a lot of Leinster this yr, I think McFadden should have been given a run at 12 sooner. Too late now for that though.

Yeah that would have been good.

Not trying to give you the Spannish Inquistion or anything but what part of Darcy's game do you rate better than Wallace's?

I would put Bowe in the centre with BOD - A dream partnership IMO

Hurely, i understand your views but i honestly feel that Paddy is the better option than D'Arcy right now. There is this myth circulating that D'Arcy is more physical than Paddy but i cant see it TBH. Paddy is every bit as physical as D'Arcy currently is.
I agree that McFadden should have been given a go at 12 as i think that he is a future star.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Personally - having watched a lot of Leinster this yr, I think McFadden should have been given a run at 12 sooner. Too late now for that though.

Yeah that would have been good.

Not trying to give you the Spannish Inquistion or anything but what part of Darcy's game do you rate better than Wallace's?

I just think when he is playing well he provides great go forward ball, often from a standing start. This is particularly important if we are in trouble up front. He provides a target for the pack and rarely loses the ball going into contact. He has the knack of scoring tries because he has a good step still. He is also good at securing the odd turnover at ruck time. His defence is good (except when playing Rougerie... ) and he has a great understanding with BOD. All important aspects of being a good 12.
I hope I avoid the rack after that outline - it is just my humble opinion after all.

Yeah, when he is playing well Hurley but that is some time ago.

eirebilly wrote:Yeah, when he is playing well Hurley but that is some time ago.

Jaysus - I just had a lovely reply to your last post wiped by 606v2. Boo.
In a nutshell, Darcy needs more game time back. It is still effectively pre-season for him. I have no issue if P Wallace plays this Sat, does a Trimble and throws down a serious marker. I just think Darcy needs more game time to get up to speed. If he plays well, he is in. If not, then Wallace deserves to start against USA.
I accept Wallace has gotten more physical, but I just have a niggling doubt about him to really step it up. Darcy has proven in the past that he can. Maybe I am living in the past, but I would love to see p Wally prove me wrong.

Why was your last ost wiped? I didnt think that they did that here.

I just feel that D'Arcy has had enough time to prove himself again but has not been able to do it. His handling skills have gone out the windo and he is less efective in taking the ball up as he once was. There is only so long that you can get by based on a good understanding with BOD.

I would start with Paddy over him right now.

I just think Wallace is a better overall player, Darcy doesn't really make those runs anymore, can't remember the last time I saw him ripping ball at a ruck since the laws changed in early 2010.

I think Wallace can relieve pressure on the pack by good, sensible touch finding kicks and by using his feet to make half breaks and offload.

Also the amount of opportunities Darcy has crucified by not passing and electing to take contact......

Eire & Pete - we shall had to agree to disagree. I also think Wallace has a little habit of kicking the ball away under pressure when we should keep it in hand.
To be honest, at the moment there is not a huge amount between them.

Eire - my last posts have disappeared as when I click 'Send' I get some odd error message that I have never seen before today. I wasn't throwing profanity at you or anything !!!

wallace is the lightest player on the team so you can wax lyrical about how physical he is, but basic phyiscs shows he is not, If we played a certain game then wallace would suit us

That would be where we fling the ball about and try and outpace and outsmart defences.
We tried this over the last few weeks a little and it aint working.
We have strong carriers of the ball in our team and we should back them.
then spread it wide, so that means that our twelve needs to carry it strong to set up a platform, dorce aint doing it at the mo, but he is the best set for doing it, wallace would have done very well in the last twenty minutes against france when it opened up

I think the only thing that's important really in this game is there not being any injuries. Anything else is a bonus.

Whatever happens, neither side can claim to have any "momentum".

Being light doesn't mean you're not a good ball carrier.

Mike Ross isn't a great carrier...

Actually he hasnt been to bad, but he falls into tackles rather then running
and yes being light does mean your a bad carrier unless you have pace

Newtons second law of force

force equals mass(weight) times acceleration

No D24 it really doesn't. There's also leg drive and body position to take into account. You're making it seem very simplistic

Also Wallace uses his feet to get around a guy or at least partially and that makes it easier to drive on when you are already half way through the tackle

"Also Wallace uses his feet to get around a guy or at least partially and that makes it easier to drive on when you are already half way through the tackle"

example in the summer series please

D24tress wrote:Actually he hasnt been to bad, but he falls into tackles rather then running
and yes being light does mean your a bad carrier unless you have pace

Newtons second law of force

force equals mass(weight) times acceleration

Since when does force = ball carrying ability?

When you're Sean O'Brien it makes sense.

Its physics mick

The bigger and faster a guy is the harder he is to stop
especially in a crowded midfield

SOB is a top top player.

When it gets to the RWC I think that you'll see his utility. As they say a good player doesn't become bad overnight.

Just a temporary loss of form as I see it.

But what if he goes high instead of dipping his shoulder?
What if he holds the ball in one hand instead of two?
What if he has no leg drive?

Portnoy-
Who said anything about SOB losing form!?!?!?!

D24tress wrote:Its physics mick

The bigger and faster a guy is the harder he is to stop
especially in a crowded midfield

Dunno about that. Devin Toner is 19stone, but he’s fairly handy to stop because his center of gravity is so high.

I’m not saying Wallace is a better ball carrier than Darcy, he’s not. But he doesn’t play that game anyway, he would use footwork to unbalance an defender to allow a pass inside to make ground, but he won’t bash it over the gainline. Having said that, Darcy hasn’t done it in a while either.

I give you Banahan. Massive lump, shoite ball carrier.

ok i am writing my own new physics equation for rugby

w= weight
a = acceleration
bp = body position
cog=center of gravity

W(a*bp*cog)= SOB

of course this is defunkt when being tackled by ferris

Surely this is England's last chance to try Flood at 10 and Wilkinson at 12..(or vice versa). They'd be a lot more dangerous with both those guys on the pitch. One of these guys could put big centre Tindall through a gap and cause some damage. Perhaps also put Manu on the wing in place of Cueto. Cueto was England's most solid and reliable back for a while but hasn't done too well in these warm-ups. Englands backline of Hape, Tindall and Banahan hasn't worked well, ever. Time for a re-shuffle.

Carpe Diem wrote:I give you Banahan. Massive lump, shoite ball carrier.

no acceleration

Agree with Pete on this. A smaller fella who has a very low centre of gravity and great leg drive can make disproportionate yardage. Look at McF against France in the 6N for example.

And when did SOB lose his form?? Its gas on here how a player is accused of losing form if they miss a tackle or drop a pass.

Powell is a big number 8 for Wales and we usually calculate his overall contribution like this:

Weight
Angle
Nedial Position
Kerb weight
Elevation
Rotation

If by acceleration you mean speed...then he has some yes. Remember he started with England as a winger.

What I am getting at is Wallace is not a bad player and hasn't lost form the way Darcy has. He also gives us something different.

Funny how you guys wanna see Flood-Wilko at 10-12 and some people are thinking of doing the same with ROG-Sexton. The play making 12 is back in fashion????????????

Physics comes into play when its two inanimate objects but in rugby the players are far from inanimate.
An on form D'Arcy is the stronger hit man but Paddy gets himeslf into positions where he is very difficult to tackle.
D'Arcy also likes to run these days and his vision is not that great anymore. He takes the ball into contact more than he should when the option to ship the ball is there.

The play making 12 has always been in fashion, NZ started that off! Kind of a solution to an im-potent backline; wouldn't have thought Ireland would need that with their fly-halves and Brian O'Driscoll in the backs.

D24tress wrote:"Also Wallace uses his feet to get around a guy or at least partially and that makes it easier to drive on when you are already half way through the tackle"

example in the summer series please

There are a number of examples if you watch the two games he's played in. You'll see that when he took the ball to the line he actually crosses the gainline and presents the ball nearly every time.

Did you not think that ROG and Sexton looked good playing together on Saturday Pete?
I thought that they looked very comfortable playing together. Certainly not a starting option but one to use possible if a game opens up towards the end. ROG's calmness coupled with Sextons creativeness is very good to have in an open game.

sorry i am not saying that wallace doesnt offer anything
as i said if we played a different game he would be perfect, but we are not a stylish fling the ball team, infact if this was leinster i would start wallace ahead of darcy

D24tress wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:I give you Banahan. Massive lump, shoite ball carrier.

no acceleration

Good point.

No, I understand, I'm just providing examples of how Wallace actually does take the crash ball and make yards against the odds.

We need the play making 12 as our 13 has zero play making ability himself.

I don't think it ever went out of fashion but you can't just have two big lumps i the centres as we're being very kind and showing everyone at the moment.

Unfortunately Flood is really not a playmaking 12 and even if he was all our attacks come off 9/10 so we really need a boshing 12 and play making 13.

Which we would kind of have if form players were picked over favourites. But that's a whole different can of worms.

leinsterbaby wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if England won the way Ireland are playing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland won the way England are playing

I wont be upset if Ireland lose, just as long as the boys get some match fitness

yappy, I said before England last played Wales that the team was very limited. Nobody listened to me and now look.. Anyway, I'm just going to pick what I think is a decent England team and one that should perhaps be given a run in your final warm up game.

Foden, Ashton, Tindall, Wilkinson, Tuilagi, Flood, Simpson(needs game time) - Haskell, Wood, Croft, Deacon, Palmer, Corbisero, Thompson, Cole.
Bit stuck with the bench apart from: Stevens, Lawes, Youngs, Armitage... Perhaps Flutey or Hodgson would have come in handy here?

eirebilly wrote:I wont be upset if Ireland lose, just as long as the boys get some match fitness

Is the way neither DK nor MJ will be viewing it hopefully.

Ireland going into a RWC with nothing to show out of four warm-up games and England having taken three steps backwards with their last five (six even) games. If they lose then it's not good. Confidence is everything to play any game between equally balanced teams- and as the ould sods are are home...

Oh i am sure that DK and MJ will want their sides to win.
Its just not that important to me, i am much happier for the lads to get match practice.