two welsh myths dispelled today

myth one is that shane williams can't defend against bigger players. I think he went a long way towards proving that wrong by stopping the try for banahan.
Myth two is that hook can't play full back. He was solid under the high ball and wasn't caught out of position. Looking good for the world cup.

Also i feel that i owe huw bennett an apology. He steadied the lineout well when he came on. Sorry huw

Shane has been a great defender for years, it's just no fan outside Wales knows that.

Hook today was good at Full Back, he seems much more willing to be physical now his shoulder is fixed.

Bennett had one good game lets not get carried away, it's his first half decent Wales game since 2003, he owned Wales that after the rubbish he's served up for such a long time.

mckay1402 wrote:Also i feel that i owe huw bennett an apology. He steadied the lineout well when he came on. Sorry huw

No you dont, he should always have been playing this well, i can only assume this is what hes like in training. Other wise he wouldnt have picked up so many caps. I never thought i'd see Huw come on and steady the ship in the lineout.

AlynDavies wrote:Bennett had one good game lets not get carried away, it's his first half decent Wales game since 2003, he owned Wales that after the rubbish he's served up for such a long time.

He played well against England at HQ aswell. But you're right, no need toget carried away.

agreed, and i know people are saying lets not rush with bennet but i was glad to see him come on and it is good to see players such as bennet, phillips and roberts find form along with henson playing fairly well

agreed, and i know people are saying lets not rush with bennet but i was glad to see him come on and it is good to see players such as bennet, phillips and roberts find form along with henson playing fairly well

This is nonsense. We won today because England were inept ! Yes our defence was awesome and I was so pleased with the commitment.

BUT... Any other top tier team would have been 30 points ahead at half time.

Hook was not great at 15. He played very well at 10 when the game started to turn and England imploded.

We won't beat smarter teams until we can win some ball !!!!!

rubbish. what did hook do wrong at fb?

offload wrote:This is nonsense. We won today because England were inept ! Yes our defence was awesome and I was so pleased with the commitment.

BUT... Any other top tier team would have been 30 points ahead at half time.

Hook was not great at 15. He played very well at 10 when the game started to turn and England imploded.

We won't beat smarter teams until we can win some ball !!!!!

You can talk about what if's all you like to be honest, but I would say the result is the bottom line in sport and Wales won by 10 points. As a Welsh fan, England's short comings are their own problem.
No other pack in the World could dominate Wales the way England did today, no other pack has that size and power. Sadly as always with stereotypical England, they bash away blindly with no creativity and look for penalties.

AlynDavies wrote:

offload wrote:This is nonsense. We won today because England were inept ! Yes our defence was awesome and I was so pleased with the commitment.

BUT... Any other top tier team would have been 30 points ahead at half time.

Hook was not great at 15. He played very well at 10 when the game started to turn and England imploded.

We won't beat smarter teams until we can win some ball !!!!!

You can talk about what if's all you like to be honest, but I would say the result is the bottom line in sport and Wales won by 10 points. As a Welsh fan, England's short comings are their own problem.
No other pack in the World could dominate Wales the way England did today, no other pack has that size and power. Sadly as always with stereotypical England, they bash away blindly with no creativity and look for penalties.

I think France, New Zealand and probably South Africa would have dominated Wales's pack the same way, and we'd have been hammered by those 3 if they'd had that domination.

yes but lets not speculate with ifs and buts and what ifs, end of the day wales won.

The other myth dispelled today and last week is S Jones is our best 10, Gatland should have given other players a chance in the flyhalf position e.g., BaaBaas match and AI's. If S Jones did not pick up the injury we would not have had any game time for Preistland!

Agree with Alun on the 10 spot. Decided now, surely. The first kick-off of the match from Priestland was on another level. A very cool customer. Suddenly the back line is fizzing.

The question then became - could Hook step up and match what we saw from RP over the past 2 games? After getting just 3 starts at 10 over the past two years at any level? You betcha. Showed skills and dog for the try, belted over the long-range penalties, looked the real deal.

In a first choice team, Hook should start at 10 - which has the additional benefit of allowing us go with North instead of Halfpenny for his long kicking - but RP looks a very worthy alternative. Is he a real rival to Byrne at 15? Unfortunately he has had no international starts there so we don't know.

Well, if we start Hook at 10 and Byrne (form defendant) at 15 then Rhys becomes an great bench option being able to cover 10 and 15 well.

I am not sure about Preistland at FB, watching the slow motion of him dropping a straight forward catch, he took his eyes off the ball and closed his eyes! I thought that was a one off then watching Scrum V highlights of before the match practise and it showed him doing the same, he caught the ball but only just, but not during the pressure of the game!

Your wearing Rose tinted glasses - listen to offload.

Well done on the win & good defence but please don't draw any conclusions beyond that.

glamorganalun wrote:The other myth dispelled today and last week is S Jones is our best 10, Gatland should have given other players a chance in the flyhalf position e.g., BaaBaas match and AI's. If S Jones did not pick up the injury we would not have had any game time for Preistland!

Here I am again countering your one liners sorry Alun but I feel I have to

Last week you lost beause an experienced "aware" 10 took the points on offer (two drop goals) when there was a possibility of running the ball, contrast that to three occasions when you run the ball (twice with Warburton) instead of taking the points. The outcome MIGHT have been different if you had an aware 10 who could mix it up a bit. When Wales scored last week you needed an aware 10 to calm things down, instead you went gun ho yet again, result England took control and scored a try just eight mins later. You didnt or couldnt change your gameplan instead it was RUN RUN RUN, somehow I don't think you will get away with that come the WC

Contrast that performance to Carters performance again Quade ............ as he said you run when its the best option, and you kick when its the best option , and you defend when its the best option.

Lets not Wales posters get ahead of yourselves, England had all the possession and territory it was an inept performance from them in the realms of finishing i.e. tindalls knock on.

It proves to many people that you will not win many games without "aware" players, and that Jones is still a country mile in front as a "complete 10", Priestland certainly showed what he will do next season for Wales, Hook played his best game at 10 for Wales yesterday but one 20 minute "swallow" doesn't a summer be.

Yes we won but thats about it, against a more clinical side we would have been dead nad buried by half time.

Our lineout was again awful with James and Mitchell poor at scrum time.

Back row went well and Lydiate and Warburton are now clearly 1st choice.

Hook doone nothing wrong at XV but for me he still needs to be at 10.

Roberts has had two very strong games now and Phillips getting back to some tidy form.

samuraidragon wrote:Agree with Alun on the 10 spot. Decided now, surely. The first kick-off of the match from Priestland was on another level. A very cool customer. Suddenly the back line is fizzing.

The question then became - could Hook step up and match what we saw from RP over the past 2 games? After getting just 3 starts at 10 over the past two years at any level? You betcha. Showed skills and dog for the try, belted over the long-range penalties, looked the real deal.

In a first choice team, Hook should start at 10 - which has the additional benefit of allowing us go with North instead of Halfpenny for his long kicking - but RP looks a very worthy alternative. Is he a real rival to Byrne at 15? Unfortunately he has had no international starts there so we don't know.

Strewth 20 mins against Scotland he's the real deal then "lo and behold he plays as poor a game as any 10 ever against France", ooooh no comments then I see. Now he plays 20 mins against England (who lets be honest missed so many opportunities in those last 20 mins it was untrue) and you are saying he is the real deal again. Selective memeory indeed

He has had international starts .....look at the French game for goodness sake

He played well (not brilliant but well) yesterday for 20 mins at 10

"The real deal"...............Get real.

Our incredible defence yesterday kept England from scoring but it was Hook who won us the game. Two monster penalties and a trademark break put 13 points on the board for Wales. Great composure under pressure to take those points.

flyhalf, I thought you were Scottish? I was wondering, why are you so overwhelmingly biased in favour of Scarlets players?

The main myth that should be vanquished concerning Bennett is that no player stays true to one solid strand of form throughout their career. The worst players are just as capable of playing blinders as the best players are of having shockers. Too much is taken for granted out of impatience from fickle fans.
Bennett turned out well during the GS three years ago, then suffered a plummeting lapse in form and has only recently started playing well again. Currently he deserves to be in contention but earlier in the season he didn't.

I wouldn't read too much into Hook at fullback. He defended there ok yesterday but didn't seem capable of unlocking England's defence until he was switched to 10. I still say he should start at stand-off during the WC.

The main exposed myth was that winning and losing the game hinges on a good set-piece. Of course it would be folly to neglect the significance of the lineout and scrum but a side with enough bottle and dog about them can come away with the result nonetheless. Further proof is that our scrum dominated its SH counterparts in the autumn but we lost every game regardless.

Draigoch

Mate Welsh defence was superb I agree, England dropped the ball twice when it was easier to score (Tindall was a classic example)

You'll see I am unbiased 100% not Scarlets Blues White, or Amber I just can't believe some posters saying "real deal", "world class" based on 20 mins play yet again. SHOW SOME CONSISTENCY

I have already said that was Hooks best 20 mins as a 10 for Wales, isnt that enough for you.............. or do you want me to say his consistency his defence, his positioning, is the best there is , Sorry but until he shows consistency then he's just another 20 minute wonder

I have said that Ospreys e.g. Shane was awesome in defence, AWJ had a good game, other have said he didnt, Bennett played well both weeks, Henson played well (not brilliant but well), I stated that Lydiate and Charteris were superb

So where is this "overwhealming support for Scarlets"

Or do you want me to say that a 10 should be a running back only like Quade and not an organiser like Dan Carter, sorry mate I am not going to pander to your views.

That was not Hooks best performance as a Wales 10 - How long have you watched the guy!!!

RubyGuby wrote:That was not Hooks best performance as a Wales 10 - How long have you watched the guy!!!

I was a consultant in Wales in 2005 and 2006, we provided advice to Welsh sports funding I watched him on a training session then.

That was Hooks best overall performance yesterday, based on positional play, been aware, straightening the line, lets forget about his running play we know he can do that, whats important is the things he couldn't do well , and dont harp back to that English game please!! zzzzzzzz

Did you go missing in the jungle or something when he played against Australia a while back. I've met plenty of clueless sports consultants so you can spin that one all you want. Look forward to the consultants (biggest overused word going) feedback.

Don't be pathetic and immature with your "useless sports consultants"

Crikey have you met plenty of sports consultants, funny because I havent, and we have provided economic advice to Wales sport in general for nearly 10 years.

Tell me a few of them laddy, especially the useless ones

Its my opinion that Hook played his best game at 10 for the reasons i said, now YOU TELL US where you thought that the Oz game was better, I can tell you where I think his weaknesses were in that game, but you tell the board why you think he played better as a 10 in that game.

Hooks game management from 10 has always been questionable, largely as a consequence of the fact that he has been pushed around the backline as a utility player. In addition there are "expectations" on him and he has felt these in the 10 jersey. Unfortunately he has risen to them. The result is that he has often taken the wrong option and running ('cos it's expected of him) when he shouldn't and offloading hospital passes and/or interceptions as he trys to live up to those "expectations" instead of getting the basics right. He now looks more composed in his general play and this has probably come from experience, self-belief and even maybe the fact that he is now out of the Ospreys circus. What he did in the Australia game was play what was in front of him and he did well. What he now needs to do is work on the basics and play conservative when he needs to and Hook like when it's on. Look forward to your response Laddy!

fly - perhaps scarlets bias is the wrong phrase. But everytime the olde Hook vs anyone debate comes out you seem to explode. Not that you don't have an argument, but your passion is...admirable!

Anywho, I think Wales have lots to learn if Hook gets the 10 jersey next week, what do you think?

Back to the thread.Anybody doubting Shane's tackling clearly has not watched Wales play over the last 5 years or so.
Anybody who thinks Bennett is an accomplished hooker clearly has not watched Wales play over the last 3 years or so.
On both counts I wait to be proved wrong.

simple conclusion,

ITS NOT THE SIZE (/AMOUNT OF POSSESSION) BUT WHAT YOU DO WITH IT

Draigoch wrote:fly - perhaps scarlets bias is the wrong phrase. But everytime the olde Hook vs anyone debate comes out you seem to explode. Not that you don't have an argument, but your passion is...admirable!

Anywho, I think Wales have lots to learn if Hook gets the 10 jersey next week, what do you think?

To be honest if Hook plays like that consistently I would have no problem him been your 1st choice 10 he did everything very very well, if he played like he did against France then you will not win matches in the WC.

I still would play Jones against Argentina probably with Knoyle and if he didnt perform better than the available options then go with the best

welshy - I've been saying that for years..

I'd play Hook at 10 next week as we'll actually get to see how he plays at 10 for 80mins and make a decision from there. We know what Jones is capable of.

RubyGuby wrote:Hooks game management from 10 has always been questionable, largely as a consequence of the fact that he has been pushed around the backline as a utility player. In addition there are "expectations" on him and he has felt these in the 10 jersey. Unfortunately he has risen to them. The result is that he has often taken the wrong option and running ('cos it's expected of him) when he shouldn't and offloading hospital passes and/or interceptions as he trys to live up to those "expectations" instead of getting the basics right. He now looks more composed in his general play and this has probably come from experience, self-belief and even maybe the fact that he is now out of the Ospreys circus. What he did in the Australia game was play what was in front of him and he did well. What he now needs to do is work on the basics and play conservative when he needs to and Hook like when it's on. Look forward to your response Laddy!

Ok good call............... well I am 50 now so love the laddy bit, more please!!.

Ok lets run with this

Hook was always the Os first choice he wasnt messed around at all initially, he cameback after his first full season, a different shape bigger in upper body, big arms perma tanned spiked hair, and he also lost something during the break because he played pretty dire at regional level, but he was still first choice and was persisted with time and time again (I know posters like to think he was mis-managed but that kinda ain't the case) but his all round play was so poor that he lost the confidence of his forwards, that the reason the coaching staff changed to a rookie in Biggar. Now it wasn't just the Os coaches but Mr Gatland himself (or to be more accurate Mybryde) picked him as a utilty back and preferred Biggar as the SIs flyhalf, and the Lions only put him on standby as a utility back i.e. not 1st 2nd or 3rd choice flyhalf............ Now were they all wrong at that time.

The ozzie match and I am assuming you don't mean the the two recent matches when Hook was 15...., and not the 2008 match when Jones was instrument in the Wales 21-18 Australia win, HE DROPPED A GOAL why hey who says he doesn't drop goals!! its all about control and awareness (Hook was on the bench and didnt come on by the way)

So I am assuming you mean the 2007!!! WC friendly.............. thats four (4) years ago!!

The Ozzie match that Hook played 10, yes he did run well, he made some telling passes............. he didnt straighten the line at all on many occasions , and missed a vital kick in front of the posts when Wales were 22-20 down, he lost the ball in the turnover which gave away possession and ended up in 7 pts for Oz, lets get this match in context Larhham was injued, Motlock went off injured early in the match and a certain debutant centre called Sam Norton-Knight played.

It was not Hooks finest moment in a Welsh 10 shirt

Or do you mean the year before when Wales beat a full strength Aussie team containg the likes of Latham, Tuqiri, Turinui, Mitchell, Rogers, Gregan, a certain Stephen Jones played 10 scored most of the points and was awarded MOM ........and Wales beat Australia, thats twice he was 10 and beat a SH side.

welshy824 wrote:simple conclusion,

ITS NOT THE SIZE (/AMOUNT OF POSSESSION) BUT WHAT YOU DO WITH IT

AGREE 100%

Now review the French match, if you want to see what a welsh 10 does from the kick off with possession

Perhaps your one liners would bring a certain relevance to you then

If you want to see Saturdays performance as his best then I'm happy to differ, What Saturday showed is that he appears to be more mature and composed at OH and is therefore able to take more sensible options. He now needs to do that under more pressure. I disagree with you about the O's situation. Managerially they are a shambles from Cuddy down and unwittingly they do not help the confidence of players. Their backs have looked as if they don't know what they are doing for 3-4 seasons, yet they are able to get some silverware because of the quality they have had on the park, often scrambling rather than being well organised and efficient. Even ardent O's fans don't really know what they are doing on the field. Don't let the 50 tag hold you back - That ensures you have experinced the golden era of rugby and therefore I would expect you to be reasonably knowledgeable - I said reasonably and I like your edge and passion - it's what this board is for - Hope we can discuss more

Ruby

I would have liked to thought I played at a reasonable level for 20 yrs and the next 20 yrs watching Musselburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland, Lions, and BaaBaas throughout the rugby world. Spent some time in Wales working and watched the Os whenever I could, or if not them then the Scarlets

Its all about opions .......... nothings 100% fact, even when you see it before your eyes there always two sides to a coin. One person say "creative", another says "headless chicken". Interesting to see the stats for saturdays game, especially the yardage gained, tackles made, and turnovers against.

Agree with you in general about the Os management process, but the problem is at the very top (the decision makers) , not really at the coal face (the coaches). TBH I think the top level guys wanted a "Beckhamesque" equivalent and promoted and marketed the "Henson" effect for the bums on seats it might have brought in, unfortunately it has ruined what could have been a top three british side, the Os should have been with Leinster and Leicester as the top british trio. Unfortunately you have seen a trawler full of perma tanned, big arms, celebrity wannabees minimees at times over the last 4 yrs all looking to emulate the Orange God (Shane, Hooky, Owen, Phillips, Byrne) all should have concentrated on their club duties on a day-2-day basis. I think the new batch coming through will be a better squad

Back to the thread....... I thought Bennett played very very well the last two games, and Hook had it all on Saturday I think his shoulder injury is behind him and you will see a different player going forward, however it was interesting to see the stats, and he still got turned over twice, which kinda brings me back to my stance on consistency over the full 80 mins.

FlyHalf - If you think about it, if you are going to be more creative then of course statistically you are likely to make more mistakes and I think we need that to be seen as inevitable collateral damage- Of course we don't want to gift the opposition walk in interceptions and I have sensed that Wales have stopped the silly stuff recently in the backs. Saturday was very similar to the 2008 Slam - Yes we were on the back foot but we kept power and composure for most of the game. There was a time when NZ let the oppo have the ball and then took it of fthem when they needed to and ran in trys. Their stats were not too dissimilar to Saturdays match in general - Therefore, having the ball is only half the story - its what you do with it that matters. I would probably prefer Stephen Jones at OH for the SA game but we now have an A and B plan and that is encouraging. By the way I'm also 50 but I must look a lot younger than you

Its all that mint sauce mate ..... thats what keeps you young down south (or is it all those dusky virgins!!!).

And you are bang on you need a halfback pairing that can work well together, and a 10 that can change the game plan if neccessary to B or even C.

Interesting we think of Hook as a running 10, yet Priestland made more yardage than him even though he played half a match less..... if you believe the stats!!

Personally I have to admit in 2007/8 Hook was my fav welsh player, I think he lost his way a bit and perhaps marriage and a child has made him realise that if you work on the basics then your "natural" talents and in his case its his devastating ability to spot the gap, and his awesome hand off will always be there when you need them.

I hope Byrne, 1/2p, Stephen Jones and Knoyle plays against Argentina along with North, Jon Davies and Roberts or (Williams)

15 Byrne
14 Halfpenny
11 North (Brew)

13 Davies
12 Williams (Roberts)

10 Jones (Priestland)
9 Knoyle

Then you can properly assess you backs options going into the WC.

To put this post back on track, I think Hook had a good game at Fullback but did not have the opportunity in attack as Wales were defending for most of the game. I would prefer a specialist FB that can run good lines which is not a strength of Hook.

In the case of Shane's tackling I though he should have gone low as most decent wings would have scored, Shane did a good job in the end!