What we learned; France 19- 12 Ireland

by Standulstermen Sat 13 Aug 2011, 9:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

1. Healy- Was first choice and remains so. Scrummaged well and a nuisance in the loose
2. Best- Dear oh. The door is firmly ajar for Flannery now. They will both see gametime in the next two games but we cannot afford to lose so much set piece ball.
3. Ross- First choice and in reality only scrummaging TH. We are fooked if he gets injured
4. DOC- Scrapped well. Maybe not as conspicuous as usual but not bad for a 1st game
5. Cullen- Lineout went to pieces and he must take some blame. The difference when POC came on was stark. Still will make the squad
6. Ryan- Should have the lock/backrow spot sewn up. A decent showing
7. SOB- A big plus for me. May not be as effective as some at the ruck but was always busy and made yards. A Ferris,SOB, Heaslip backrow may be an option (have to see what Wally thinks of that though)
8. Leamy- He was ok (not great)but we really need our top 4 backrows above him.
9. Reddan- had a thankless task in the first half and in general. The ball was difficult but still our number 1.
10. ROG- I thought he was very good. Was targetted but fronted up and his kicking helped stifle the french in the 2nd half
11. Fitz- He was poor. Bar one break towards the end he spilled ball a few times. Definately battling with McFadden.
12. Wallace- I would say he has answered a few critics. France came back into it when we started bypassing him again. Kicked beautifully and wasnt shown up physically.
13. Earls- Outshone by Wallace but looked very dangerous when he got space. In a battle with Trimble and Bowe for the wings. Still a starter for me and unlucky at the end.
14. Trimble- Excellent showing. Set Kearney up beautifully for our best attack and looked good defensively. Will have given Kidney a nice headache.
15. Kearney- another decent showing. Looks good under the highball and ran decent lines. Still not really an attacking 15 but so dependable.

16. Flannery-A shame about the last lineout but looks primed to regain his 2 shirt
17. Buckley- Should he even go after that? I understand why Deccie tried him at LH but we are screwed if he takes the field come the RWC. (in a big game)
18. POC- Looked hungry and was an excellent 30 mins or so
19. Heaslip- Much like POC he was excellent
20. Murray- Looks sharp. I would like him to go to the RWC but only if he isnt going to sit on his derriere for the tournament.
21. McFadden- Hard to say really. Behind Wallace after tonight and fighting with Fitz it looks like
22. Jones- I like the cut of him. Looks solid and pacy and put in a lovely kick. Should go but again only if we use him!

by Trevor Brennan Rugby Tour Mon 15 Aug 2011, 12:50 pm

I think what we've seen for quite a while now is evidence that Irelands reputation for being one of the best second row units in the world is drawing to a close. We used go pretty seamlessly from Jeremy Davidson, Mick Galwey, Malcolm O'Kelly, Paul O'Connell, Donnacha O'Callaghan all the while guys like Leo Cullen and Bob Casey showed their worth in the Premiership.

Our current second row pairing has been overtaken by the likes of Scotland, Wales and England. And our future ones don't see all that promising. We need to rely on other strenghts.

by Standulstermen Mon 15 Aug 2011, 12:53 pm

D24tress

To be honest i think what the last game showed is that a large percentage of southern media (and by extension fans) cannot be objective about Paddy Wallace. After Trimble i thought he was our best player on saturday (although POC had he been on longer would have been up there)

Prior to the french game i was comepletely underwhelmed with both he and mcfadden. If Paddy can produce that level of performance consistently we should be ok.

Is the Connacht game televised this week by the by?

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 12:55 pm

Trevor Brennan Rugby Tour wrote:I think what we've seen for quite a while now is evidence that Irelands reputation for being one of the best second row units in the world is drawing to a close. We used go pretty seamlessly from Jeremy Davidson, Mick Galwey, Malcolm O'Kelly, Paul O'Connell, Donnacha O'Callaghan all the while guys like Leo Cullen and Bob Casey showed their worth in the Premiership.

Our current second row pairing has been overtaken by the likes of Scotland, Wales and England. And our future ones don't see all that promising. We need to rely on other strenghts.

Is that you Trev? I'm sure you will get a warm welcome from our many Ulster supporter posters here Very Happy

by Standulstermen Mon 15 Aug 2011, 12:59 pm

I was thinking the same Sin Wink

Nagle is coming through at Munster and hopefully this will be his breakthrough season. Beyond that i think we really need Tuohy to develop up here. Hopefully POC and DOC have a couple of years yet

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:01 pm

Standulstermen wrote:D24tress

To be honest i think what the last game showed is that a large percentage of southern media (and by extension fans) cannot be objective about Paddy Wallace. After Trimble i thought he was our best player on saturday (although POC had he been on longer would have been up there)

Prior to the french game i was comepletely underwhelmed with both he and mcfadden. If Paddy can produce that level of performance consistently we should be ok.

Is the Connacht game televised this week by the by?

I think it should be born in mind thatPaddy Wallace & Trimble have had two starts in games in positions they both play regularly.
I thought Wallace was ok on Saturday, nothing more and he can thank ROG for having to do very little work defensively.
Trimble was been terrific in both games and all the southern press have acknowledged that (even George Hook Shocked

)

by Standulstermen Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:07 pm

THats why i didnt mention trimble. The lack of objectivity comes in about wallace. I thought he was excellent on saturday (and its not often i have said that about wallace) and Hook was one of the first people to lambast him. Also Fanning i think lamented his terrible decision making. I recall one chip kick that was too far. Other than that no mistakes.

Obviously i would like to see d'arce back.

by Trevor Brennan Rugby Tour Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:12 pm

Trimble certainly has been fantastic. I'd definitely be looking for Trimble and Bowe as wingers with Earls or Kearney at fullback.

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:12 pm

Sin é wrote:Trimble was been terrific in both games and all the southern press have acknowledged that (even George Hook )

Interestingly the IT did a list of the standout players and there was no mention of Trimble who was fantastic I thought, especially in defence.

It thought Wallace had a pretty good game and his kicking game bought us some much needed breathing space in that 1st half. He's been sharp with the ball in hand in both games and I've been saying for a while that he's a good defender and he's shown this.

I don't think Wallace has done enough to take the jersey of a fit D'arcy but he's certainly done enough to show that he is an international standard player and a valuable member of the squad. That performance on Saturday was certainly as good as anything by D'arcy lately. Unfortunately some people have their own agenda and will only see what they want to see with regards Paddy.

by Mickado Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:15 pm

Sin é wrote:I think Cullen's acclaim as a leader is a bit overstated. It was Sexton who stepped up for the Heineken final, not Cullen for instance. The previous win, I think it was Rocky Elsom. And then of course, BOD is usually around. (I don't rate Heislip as a leader - not after the incident in New Zealand when he couldn't keep his cool).

I think he is more annoying at rucks than actually doing anything. He doesn't carry at all like POC does. he had one good game against France in the lineout 2 years ago (when the French were not bothered). Since then, London Irish showed up Leinster's lineout (the HCup game in the RDS).

They also picked apart the Munster lineout in the Mad Stad so that argument holds no water.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:19 pm

And Leicester in the aviva were dismantled

by D24tress Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:23 pm

Sin é wrote: (I don't rate Heislip as a leader - not after the incident in New Zealand when he couldn't keep his cool).

So any player who has had a sending off in a big game should not be conisdered for leadership
That writes POC off so, we are going to be getting low on future captains if thats the case

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:23 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:I think Cullen's acclaim as a leader is a bit overstated. It was Sexton who stepped up for the Heineken final, not Cullen for instance. The previous win, I think it was Rocky Elsom. And then of course, BOD is usually around. (I don't rate Heislip as a leader - not after the incident in New Zealand when he couldn't keep his cool).

I think he is more annoying at rucks than actually doing anything. He doesn't carry at all like POC does. he had one good game against France in the lineout 2 years ago (when the French were not bothered). Since then, London Irish showed up Leinster's lineout (the HCup game in the RDS).

They also picked apart the Munster lineout in the Mad Stad so that argument holds no water.

It does actually - away from home and the starting locks were DOC & D Ryan. Damian Varley was the hooker who has a lot of good attributes, throwing into the lineout isn't one of his best ones though.

by Mickado Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:28 pm

There’s literally ALWAYS mitigating factors when Munster / Munster players don’t do well isn’t there?

Here’s the mitigating factors for Leinster and Cullen.

It was 2 years ago.

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:31 pm

D24tress wrote:
Sin é wrote: (I don't rate Heislip as a leader - not after the incident in New Zealand when he couldn't keep his cool).

So any player who has had a sending off in a big game should not be considered for leadership
That writes POC off so, we are going to be getting low on future captains if thats the case

Heislips one was completely brainless - we were on the ABs line! It was Cian Healy who saved him from getting a very long ban. POC was brainless, but at least you could understand why he gave Thompson a dig.

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:34 pm

Mickado wrote:There’s literally ALWAYS mitigating factors when Munster / Munster players don’t do well isn’t there?

Here’s the mitigating factors for Leinster and Cullen.

It was 2 years ago.

We're not talking about Munster now - we're talking about individual players. Neither DOC or D Ryan are acclaimed for their lineout work like Cullen is - in fact DOC gets a huge amount of criticism for his performance in the lineout.

by Boyne Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:37 pm

My God sine you really go from dumb to completely mindless in seconds.

There is no point in wasting time on a $(@*$&Y@($@U( like you, there really isnt.

The worst kind.

by Mickado Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:41 pm

Since then, London Irish showed up Leinster's lineout (the HCup game in the RDS)

We're not talking about Munster now - we're talking about individual players

by Artful_Dodger Mon 15 Aug 2011, 1:45 pm

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:D24tress

To be honest i think what the last game showed is that a large percentage of southern media (and by extension fans) cannot be objective about Paddy Wallace. After Trimble i thought he was our best player on saturday (although POC had he been on longer would have been up there)

Prior to the french game i was comepletely underwhelmed with both he and mcfadden. If Paddy can produce that level of performance consistently we should be ok.

Is the Connacht game televised this week by the by?

I think it should be born in mind thatPaddy Wallace & Trimble have had two starts in games in positions they both play regularly.
I thought Wallace was ok on Saturday, nothing more and he can thank ROG for having to do very little work defensively.
Trimble was been terrific in both games and all the southern press have acknowledged that (even George Hook )

Laughable....

Paddy Wallace plays a game that his defense cant possibly be faulted in, and apparently it was cause of O'Gara.....

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:01 pm

Mickado wrote:
Since then, London Irish showed up Leinster's lineout (the HCup game in the RDS)

We're not talking about Munster now - we're talking about individual players

Did I mention Munster? You are the one who dragged Munster into it.

Most of Cullen's leadership reputation is built on his captaincy of Leinster. I'm trying to think of even one occasion where he was the one who inspired Leinster to a victory like Sexton or Rocky Elsom have done of late (and BOD does on a regular basis).

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:04 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:D24tress

To be honest i think what the last game showed is that a large percentage of southern media (and by extension fans) cannot be objective about Paddy Wallace. After Trimble i thought he was our best player on saturday (although POC had he been on longer would have been up there)

Prior to the french game i was comepletely underwhelmed with both he and mcfadden. If Paddy can produce that level of performance consistently we should be ok.

Is the Connacht game televised this week by the by?

I think it should be born in mind thatPaddy Wallace & Trimble have had two starts in games in positions they both play regularly.
I thought Wallace was ok on Saturday, nothing more and he can thank ROG for having to do very little work defensively.
Trimble was been terrific in both games and all the southern press have acknowledged that (even George Hook )

Laughable....

Paddy Wallace plays a game that his defense cant possibly be faulted in, and apparently it was cause of O'Gara.....

Against Scotland, Wallace had to make 15 tackles. Sexton made 5.
Against France, Wallace had to make 2 tackles. O'Gara had to make 6. (Just for the record, Earls had to make 6).

by caoimhincentre Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:05 pm

Sin é wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Since then, London Irish showed up Leinster's lineout (the HCup game in the RDS)

We're not talking about Munster now - we're talking about individual players

Did I mention Munster? You are the one who dragged Munster into it.

Most of Cullen's leadership reputation is built on his captaincy of Leinster. I'm trying to think of even one occasion where he was the one who inspired Leinster to a victory like Sexton or Rocky Elsom have done of late (and BOD does on a regular basis).

With all due respect unless you are in the team you don't have any say in who should be captain. from what i have heard he demands great respect from fella players and it is the respect he gets from those players that matter.

NOT from what you think Sine

by Feagh McHugh Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:05 pm

Who Leinster and Cullen, sure what have they ever won eh Sin?

by Mickado Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:08 pm

A captain doesn’t always lead from the front.
Some captains lead with words, some lead with chest banging, some lead silently by example.

Cullen has been a captain in every team he’s played in from the Dream Team in Blackrock to Leicester to Leinster. He’s had success all along the way and is revered by his team mates.

by mrsuperclear Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:09 pm

I'm not going to defend Sin é too much here but, to be fair, if I was asked who I think is more inspirational than Cullen POC, Heaslip, ROG, BOD and possibly even Sexton and Best would be on that list. That's just my opinion from the outside looking in though, as others have said, it could well be that he is inspirational to the players inside the dressing room and they do look up to him.

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:12 pm

Sin é wrote:Most of Cullen's leadership reputation is built on his captaincy of Leinster. I'm trying to think of even one occasion where he was the one who inspired Leinster to a victory like Sexton or Rocky Elsom have done of late (and BOD does on a regular basis).

Sin different leaders inspire in different ways. MOD and Leamy have captained Munster too and I can't think of them inspiring Munster to victory too often.

I think you are being harsh on Cullen but I agree he was substandard against France.

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:22 pm

Feagh McHugh wrote:Who Leinster and Cullen, sure what have they ever won eh Sin?

Leinster have won plenty - but how much would Leinster have won without someone like BOD or Elsom's leadership?

I'm waiting for some one to mention one game when Cullen took control and inspired others around them to lift their game when Leinster were under the kosh.

Maybe he does inspire the Leinster dressing room - but ask yourselves this if you were to lose one of your top players (such as BOD, Heislip, SOB, Ross) where would Cullen be in the pecking order.

(I know, POC would be the first name on the Munster teamsheet).

by Feckless Rogue Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:28 pm

Ok Sin e, we get it. The heroic Munster captain is a better player than the Jackeen, West Brit Leinster Captain. You've made your point. And repeated it a few times. And now it's getting boring.

by D24tress Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:28 pm

If you need to be inspired to play well at professional rugby there is something wrong with you

The captain should keep his team disciplined and try get the ear of the ref.

His most important leadership quaility in my view will be his assessment of young and fringe players, I'm sure kidney will sit down with him and get a gauge of the players, it was insightful when he said about players not being loud enough, communication is key in rugby

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:34 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ok Sin e, we get it. The heroic Munster captain is a better player than the Jackeen, West Brit Leinster Captain. You've made your point. And repeated it a few times. And now it's getting boring.

I wasn't trying to make the point that POC is a better player than Cullen as I thought that was obvious.

byw, he is from Wicklow so isn't a jackeen Wink

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:35 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ok Sin e, we get it. The heroic Munster captain is a better player than the Jackeen, West Brit Leinster Captain. You've made your point. And repeated it a few times. And now it's getting boring.

Thats pretty funny. Hey Sin are there any stats to prove that Heroic Munster men make better captains than Jackeen West Brits? Wink

by mrsuperclear Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:38 pm

Is he from Wicklow? You wouldn't think it with that accent on him. Although, if any of us had a Wicklow accent, we'd definitely do everything possible to get rid of it! Laugh

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:39 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:Most of Cullen's leadership reputation is built on his captaincy of Leinster. I'm trying to think of even one occasion where he was the one who inspired Leinster to a victory like Sexton or Rocky Elsom have done of late (and BOD does on a regular basis).

Sin different leaders inspire in different ways. MOD and Leamy have captained Munster too and I can't think of them inspiring Munster to victory too often.

I think you are being harsh on Cullen but I agree he was substandard against France.

Neither MOD or Leamy are held up as examples of great leaders and neither have been in the frame to captain Ireland.

(Mind you, I like the way Leamy did that crossfield kick at the death against Ulster to go on for the bonus point try win. Most other captains would have been happy with the win).

by valjester Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:48 pm

Cullen has to take his share of the blame for the lineout and poc and fla screwed up as well. But for me the most disappointing thing from cullen was his general play and especially collecting restarts. I didn't really notice it first time round but watching the match for a second time they were a disaster until poc came on. There was no coordination or clear calling and people were getting in each others way. It was the same last november. It is really frustrating that Ireland seem unable of dealing with lineouts without him. Cullen was really disappointing in his time on the pitch. Doc was poor and there was a chance for cullen to push ahead and try take a starting spot and instead he managed to be worse than doc. I have full confidence(blind hope) in best and fla and that they will sort the lineout out by the world cup.

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
(Mind you, I like the way Leamy did that crossfield kick at the death against Ulster to go on for the bonus point try win. Most other captains would have been happy with the win).

Good link Sin. It's a good job you are here or I'd have never spotted the obvious connection between the merits of Cullen's leadership and Munster getting a bonus point win over Ulster Wink

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 2:55 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
(Mind you, I like the way Leamy did that crossfield kick at the death against Ulster to go on for the bonus point try win. Most other captains would have been happy with the win).

Good link Sin. It's a good job you are here or I'd have never spotted the obvious connection between the merits of Cullen's leadership and Munster getting a bonus point win over Ulster

Only picked an occasion I knew you would have seen where Leamy did well as captain. You wouldn't have believed me if I mentioned another occasion thumbsup

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:00 pm

Sin é wrote:Only picked an occasion I knew you would have seen where Leamy did well as captain. You wouldn't have believed me if I mentioned another occasion

Sin your word is good enough for me....even if your stats sometimes aren't

...

by Feckless Rogue Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:04 pm

It's not time for blind hope yet. They were clearly not 1st choice starting teams in the first two warm ups. We should see a stronger team next up against France and in the last warm up we should see pretty close to the team that will play Australia.

Do ye think these two home warm ups are must win games now? I know the last two were more for giving players game time but we've lost two in a row now. Two good wins at home would be great way to head down under. Four losses on the trot would be the worst possible build up.

Against Australia I'd play

01. Healy
02. Flannery
03. Ross
04. DOC
05. POC
06. O'Brien (Ferris if fully fit)
07. Wallace
08. Heaslip
09. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Wallace (D'arcy if fully fit)
13. BOD
14. Trimble
15. Kearney/Jones (whoever plays better from now on)

I think Trimble is playing good enough to keep Bowe out and we need Earls raw pace on the other wing. I'd like to see O'Driscoll at 12 and Bowe or Earls at 13. Not gonna happen though.

by mrsuperclear Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:09 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:It's not time for blind hope yet. They were clearly not 1st choice starting teams in the first two warm ups. We should see a stronger team next up against France and in the last warm up we should see pretty close to the team that will play Australia.

Do ye think these two home warm ups are must win games now? I know the last two were more for giving players game time but we've lost two in a row now. Two good wins at home would be great way to head down under. Four losses on the trot would be the worst possible build up.

Against Australia I'd play

01. Healy
02. Flannery
03. Ross
04. DOC
05. POC
06. O'Brien (Ferris if fully fit)
07. Wallace
08. Heaslip
09. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Wallace (D'arcy if fully fit)
13. BOD
14. Trimble
15. Kearney/Jones (whoever plays better from now on)

I think Trimble is playing good enough to keep Bowe out and we need Earls raw pace on the other wing. I'd like to see O'Driscoll at 12 and Bowe or Earls at 13. Not gonna happen though.

Controversial leaving Bowe out but Trimble has been magnificent in the two games so far. Let's see how Bowe does when he get's his chance though? I think Trimble will have one wing and Bowe the other with Earls on the bench to be honest. Very unfair on him considering he's probably been our most in form wing and yet hasn't even had a chance in the warm up's yet. Again, maybe we'll see him get a chance next week or the week after though.

Pretty much agree with the rest of your team with the proviso that D'arcy is not just fully fit but also actually playing well (same goes for Ferris)! I'd also add that Flannery needs to play a whole game and prove his fitness without a doubt before he gets ahead of Best - and Best deserves another go against either France or England to show last Saturday was a once off.

by valjester Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:19 pm

mrsuperclear wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:It's not time for blind hope yet. They were clearly not 1st choice starting teams in the first two warm ups. We should see a stronger team next up against France and in the last warm up we should see pretty close to the team that will play Australia.

Do ye think these two home warm ups are must win games now? I know the last two were more for giving players game time but we've lost two in a row now. Two good wins at home would be great way to head down under. Four losses on the trot would be the worst possible build up.

Against Australia I'd play

01. Healy
02. Flannery
03. Ross
04. DOC
05. POC
06. O'Brien (Ferris if fully fit)
07. Wallace
08. Heaslip
09. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Wallace (D'arcy if fully fit)
13. BOD
14. Trimble
15. Kearney/Jones (whoever plays better from now on)

I think Trimble is playing good enough to keep Bowe out and we need Earls raw pace on the other wing. I'd like to see O'Driscoll at 12 and Bowe or Earls at 13. Not gonna happen though.

Controversial leaving Bowe out but Trimble has been magnificent in the two games so far. Let's see how Bowe does when he get's his chance though? I think Trimble will have one wing and Bowe the other with Earls on the bench to be honest. Very unfair on him considering he's probably been our most in form wing and yet hasn't even had a chance in the warm up's yet. Again, maybe we'll see him get a chance next week or the week after though.

Pretty much agree with the rest of your team with the proviso that D'arcy is not just fully fit but also actually playing well (same goes for Ferris)! I'd also add that Flannery needs to play a whole game and prove his fitness without a doubt before he gets ahead of Best - and Best deserves another go against either France or England to show last Saturday was a once off.

If Bowe is fit he plays, he is one of the best wingers in the world. Earls and trimble is probably 50/50, I'd pick earls because I think you need his pace in the Irish backline lacks pace.

by Sin é Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:23 pm

roddersm wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Ok Sin e, we get it. The heroic Munster captain is a better player than the Jackeen, West Brit Leinster Captain. You've made your point. And repeated it a few times. And now it's getting boring.

Thats pretty funny. Hey Sin are there any stats to prove that Heroic Munster men make better captains than Jackeen West Brits?

Sammy Tuitupou has just been made Sale captain Shocked

He would have been just after the tea lady in the pecking order for the Munster captaincy. Very Happy

by mrsuperclear Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:26 pm

valjester wrote: If Bowe is fit he plays, he is one of the best wingers in the world. Earls and trimble is probably 50/50, I'd pick earls because I think you need his pace in the Irish backline lacks pace.

He is one of the best wingers in the world when at his best, but I'd argue Bowe hasn't actually played that well this season. Trimble has been, in my opinion, better than Bowe this season. It would be a massive call though and I don't know if I'd make it if Bowe played only average in his warm up game(s). As regards Earls, I'd agree with you it's probably 50/50 right now and I'd wait to see Earls in a warm up match on the wing before making a decision there. I'd play Trimble right now though. He's been our best player in both the last two games in my view and he'd be very unlucky to miss out on the starting team for Australia, never mind the bench.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:27 pm

Agree on Flannery. And you're probably right about Bowe. I'm just a big Trimble fan. And I don't think Bowe has had his best season. Nobody should be untouchable when there are viable quality alternatives. With regards to the back three, some good players are gonna miss out on starts in the World Cup, which can only be good thing for the team. We have proper strength in depth there.

I'd have Wallace at 12 if D'arcy isn't up to speed. There's a lot of very harsh criticism of Wallace. I'd say he's just a good player but he's never gonna set the world alight against the top test teams. But I'd put others in that category. Is Ross world class? Were Hayes or Stringer? Is D'arcy still world class anymore? The answer is no.

New Zealand can pretty much put out 15 world class players. France, Australia and South Africa can put out close to 15 world class players. We can't. I'd say we have about 5 proven world class talents. The rest are just good players who have do as good a job as they can for the team and allow our best players to shine. People seem to hate Paddy Wallace for the sole reason that he's not Sonny Bill Williams.

by valjester Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:32 pm

mrsuperclear wrote:
valjester wrote: If Bowe is fit he plays, he is one of the best wingers in the world. Earls and trimble is probably 50/50, I'd pick earls because I think you need his pace in the Irish backline lacks pace.

He is one of the best wingers in the world when at his best, but I'd argue Bowe hasn't actually played that well this season. Trimble has been, in my opinion, better than Bowe this season. It would be a massive call though and I don't know if I'd make it if Bowe played only average in his warm up game(s). As regards Earls, I'd agree with you it's probably 50/50 right now and I'd wait to see Earls in a warm up match on the wing before making a decision there. I'd play Trimble right now though. He's been our best player in both the last two games in my view and he'd be very unlucky to miss out on the starting team for Australia, never mind the bench.

The thing that swings it in earls' favour and for bowe, it that they are such natural finishers. I don't think you can read to much into bowe's form for the ospreys as the were falling apart for a lot of last season and he had his injury problems. He is too important to be left out. He was still contributing a fair amount to ireland in the games he played in the six nations.

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 3:46 pm

Bowe hasn't had the best season but if fit not only is he one of the worlds best wingers he's our best back along with O'Driscoll. No way can you leave him out if he's fit. The game against England showed how good he is even when not in a great run of form and time and time again he's been the guy to save our bacon by getting the winning try.

Trimble has had a good season again, although not as good as last but has shown numerous times how effective he is against the top teams and his defence has improved 100% since the last WC.

To be honest I think Earls, Trimble and Bowe are the only outside backs we have who can really hurt the top sides and I think we need to try and get all 3 on the field at the same time.

I would play Earls at FB against Australia because I don't think Australia will kick the ball much and I think we need a full back who will run the ball back at them.

by mrsuperclear Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:05 pm

To be honest I find myself agreeing with both of you. However, all I'm saying is that Trimble has been or best wing by a mile in the warm up's (competition being Luke Fitzgerald so not too impressive I suppose) and I think Bowe needs to prove his worth against France or England to 100% deserve that 14 jersey. Would I play him anyway if he didn't play particularly well? Probably - he is pretty much as set in stone in the team now as POC and BOD are. I'd just like to see him play well in the next two weeks due to Trimble offering fierce competition for that jersey and I think it's always better to play a player in form rather than a player who's theoretically better but out of form.

I'd agree with you on Earls for Australia by the way Rodders. They'll kick less than England did in the six nations (if there's such a thing as less than zero) and he'd excel there I reckon - if that is the plan though, I think he needs to play at full back against either France or England in the next two weeks which is really going to be unfair on him seeing as might not get a chance to play wing in the warm up's.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:14 pm

The back three against England may be the way to go against Australia. I wouldn't be so sure that Australia wouldn't kick to Earls though. There are doubts over how he'd do under pressure from high balls. Surely Australia would know this and give him a few early bombs to unsettle him. If it's working they'll keep it up. Why England didn't even try this in the 6 Nations is a mystery.

It might be a good idea to play Earls at fullback in one of the upcoming games. Because Trimble, Earls, Bowe is probably our most dangerous attacking back three. But Kearney and Jones have been getting time at fullback so that suggests to me that Kidney might want two out and out natural fullbacks, which is probably the most sensible option.

I actually have faith in both Kearney and Jones. They're both excellent if you ask me.

by **rodders** Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:16 pm

mrsuperclear wrote:
I'd agree with you on Earls for Australia by the way Rodders. They'll kick less than England did in the six nations (if there's such a thing as less than zero) and he'd excel there I reckon - if that is the plan though, I think he needs to play at full back against either France or England in the next two weeks which is really going to be unfair on him seeing as might not get a chance to play wing in the warm up's.

Yeah I agree. It will be interesting to see if Earls gets any game time there. I think Earls scrambling defence might be useful against Australia too as they are likely to get pleny of linebreaks and he is faster than Kearney.

Kearney has looked really good in the last couple of games but I think his natural instinct is to kick the ball back at the opposition and we don't want that against Australia. Under the high ball hes arguably the best player in the World though and lets not forget Felix Jones.

It's great to have these options but I think any Irish team without Bowe is a weaker one no matter how well Trimble and Earls are playing.

by dublin_dave Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:23 pm

ok we have some good dilemmas in the back 3.

full back:kearney has been better than i thought on his return,jones is lively and we have not even looked at Geordan Murphy. Earls can also cover adequately.

wings: Trimble has been excellent and earls is a top finisher. Big two games for Bowe, he needs to play well or his place could be in jeopardy. Luke has been patchy, some good things and bad things. under pressure to make the squad

centres: wallace has been solid and not done much wrong without ever looking like making a line break or creating an opportunity. his defence has been good. earls is a great finisher and broken field runner but i dont think he has the footballing brain or hands for centre. be interesting to see how drico plays on his return. darcy on his day adds a cutting edge that wallace doesnt have. we all know however that darce on a bad day is not very good at all.

half backs: rog and sexton will be fine. scrum halves, would like to see murray get more of a game. reddan still my first choice as he links best with Sexton. id take murray and boss as 2 and 3. it will however be tol for boss.

back row: bit worrying. looks like jennings will not get a look in as deccie does not fancy him (i mean ronan started a game ahead of him), sob is wasted at 7. Ferris well who knows what state his body is in. would be amazed if he makes world cup. Leamy and D Ryan are limited back rowers at the top level. would hope to see a strong back row in the coming games.

second row: cullen has been poor as has donners in the two games. poc is absolutely essential (nothing we didnt know there)

front row: if anything happens to ross or healy we are goosed absolutely goosed. ross has a bad half v france but is lightyears ahead of hayes and buckley. best for all his work rate has struggled with his darts.

some positives but lots of worries

lineout is in severe decline. the days of us being 100% solid on our ball and challenging opposition are gone. POC can just about hold things together again i ask what gert smal is bringing to the party. he must share blame with best,cullen,donners et al.

scrum should survive if ross and healy stay fit. france are probably the best scrummagers in the world so will give ross benefit of the doubt.

backs look directionless of first phase and set plays. no trys in two games. not good. when we fling it around of the cuff we do look dangerous. why oh why do good players in provincial jersey insist on kicking so much ball away in the green jersey, maddeninng

oh well two big tests before world cup. need two home wins to lift morale

by D24tress Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:28 pm

Was jennings not injured and thats why ronan got a game

by Artful_Dodger Mon 15 Aug 2011, 4:31 pm

dublin dave I would be amazed if Ferris doesnt make the WC.

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