Who should be Wales WC 10?

Hook has to now be given the 10 shirt on a permanent basis. He is happier there & creates more. I also think his defence is not as great at 12/13 & he sometimes throws those wild passes in the centre. He's going to play 10 at Perpignan so I hope Gatland does the right thing

Edit - restored the thread title. Krusty, you have mail

You specifically asked in the poll who should be Wales world cup 10 so I've answered Stephen Jones. He's the most experienced of the three, but obviously following the world cup, he'll possibly retire so he's not a long term player.

Remember Hook's last start at 10 against France, not a happy experience!

He played well on Saturday at 15 and later on at 10, but unlike the previous week, Wales backs did not look threatening. Use him at 13 or as an impact sub for when the game is breaking up.

Jones or Priestand for 10.

Priestland at outside half, Hook at inside centre, Roberts or JD2 at outside centre.

Jones or Preistland at 10 for me, not doubting Hook can do a job there, and maybe be switched there in the 2nd half of matches (like on Sat) but I don't think for this RWC he is quite ready. He just hasn't played there enough for me.

i think a back line of

9) phillips
10) priestland
11) shane
12) Hook
13) JD/Roberts
14) North
15) halfpenny

i think that would be a devastating backline-maybe 15 could be debate able with byrne, (stoddart when fit) or dare i say it if he is fit Henson?

Comment in from ex-Dragon Rob Stradling via twitter:
Sourdust Rob Stradling

@606v2rugby It could be Priestland, It should be Hook. It will be Jones. #Wales #RWC

Kiwireddevil:

I suspect that quote to be correct which will mean another defeat looking at history over the last 2/3 years (unless Wales play Italy provided Hook play 12)!

krusty wrote:Hook has to now be given the 10 shirt on a permanent basis. He is happier there & creates more. I also think his defence is not as great at 12/13 & he sometimes throws those wild passes in the centre. He's going to play 10 at Perpignan so I hope Gatland does the right thing

Examples on a post card please

welshy824 wrote:i think a back line of

9) phillips
10) priestland
11) shane
12) Hook
13) JD/Roberts
14) North
15) halfpenny

i think that would be a devastating backline-maybe 15 could be debate able with byrne, (stoddart when fit) or dare i say it if he is fit Henson?

Even more destructive would be

9 Knoyle
10 Jones
11 Williams
12 Davies
13 Roberts
14 North
15 Halfpenny

Bench: Priestland, Hook, Phillips

Hook at 10 with Jones on the bench to close out a close game.

I think Jones will be Wales 10 in the RWC, After the RWC he will probably retire.

After the RWC wont Hook be playing in France,? If so will he be getting picked to play for Wales?

No i think after the RWC Priestland will be the welsh 10 with Biggar challenging for the shirt.

majesticimperialman wrote:After the RWC wont Hook be playing in France,? If so will he be getting picked to play for Wales?

Why wouldn't he be? Please don't misquote "Gatland's law" either, should you reply.

Hook has probably sorted it so he can be available for all Welsh squad sessions anyway.

People cannot expect just one 10 to play throughout the WC?Injury/fatigue will require rotation,surely?

majesticimperialman wrote:I think Jones will be Wales 10 in the RWC, After the RWC he will probably retire.

After the RWC wont Hook be playing in France,? If so will he be getting picked to play for Wales?

No i think after the RWC Priestland will be the welsh 10 with Biggar challenging for the shirt.

Crikey!What has happened to Tovey?Has he packed up playing?

It looks like a lot of S Jones bias on this post, during the 6N Gatland had to look at Hook at 10 to start winning games and it worked. Here we are again we just had two good 10 performances against a decent team (not Italy) and now we have better options (more by luck than judgement) but still certain supporters support a slow flyhalf who can't kick any distance, kick offs are rubbish, can't make any yards, can only score a try if there is no opposition in front of him (he may get a chance against Argentina) and he is no threat to to opposition hence putting pressure on the creative line breakers (due to the opposition back row heading for them)!

I think Preistland and Hook are much better options and can usefully play in more than one position.

krusty says of hook 'wild passes' 'poor in defence' for me add too many blind alley runs, isolation, turn overs, hospital passes, kicking in field when it should be touch finder. for the rwc best he comes on to cover, not enough strength from hook in one position, good skills but not all the 'key skills ' for one position. won't play 10 all the time for perpignan.

glamorganalun wrote:It looks like a lot of S Jones bias on this post, during the 6N Gatland had to look at Hook at 10 to start winning games and it worked. Here we are again we just had two good 10 performances against a decent team (not Italy) and now we have better options (more by luck than judgement) but still certain supporters support a slow flyhalf who can't kick any distance, kick offs are rubbish, can't make any yards, can only score a try if there is no opposition in front of him (he may get a chance against Argentina) and he is no threat to to opposition hence putting pressure on the creative line breakers (due to the opposition back row heading for them)!

I think Preistland and Hook are much better options and can usefully play in more than one position.

GlamAl

Perhaps they are not "biased" but just unbiased and clued-up posters who seem to remember Hooks last start as a 10 not so long ago mate FRANCE ...... oooooh not a pretty sight.

Lets get it right, you had Priestland who had two very good performances, and the stats show in the 2nd match he outperformed Hook in every facit of the game thats TACKLES, YARDAGE GAINED, DIRECT RUNS, ACCURACY OUT OF HAND...... Hook as usual had 2 (maybe 3) turnovers against him which on another day might have resulted in tries NOT GOOD. Hook played very well for 20 mins, not great but very well.

Lets look at the facts
* Speed - Hook, much faster with ball in hand
* Kicking Length - Hook much more powerful. Accuracy probably about the same.
* Running into blind alleys - Hook great runner, under pressure usually into the opposition tho, ends up losing the ball often
* Turnovers against - Jones rarely, Hook as usual gets turned over quite alot per game
* Tackles made - Jones every time!!!, Hook was a lot better last match
* Kick offs - ??? show me when Hook has been any better or worse than Jones, one poster said it on here once, and the lemins all follow him off the rugby cliff edge, remember the old adage "say it often enough and it will become fact" applies here
* Positioning - No contest here Jones every time
* Creative (NOT RUNNING) play - ahem remember Jones cross field kicks for North, 1/2p (Wales), Lamont (Regional), Hook ahem remember his "unstraightening" of the line to deny Prydie two international debut tries, apart from his own two recent tries can you give me one instance when he has created a try for anyone recently (not been part of a running line because Jones did that loads of time for the Scarlets last season) but actually an individual moment that created ab opportunity for his colleagues to score a try
* Awareness - Oh yes Hook in France really knew how to change a gameplan didnt he. It was quite clear at Twickenham what an aware 10 (Wilkinson) can do .... he won them the game by taking the points on offer instead of instigating a running movement like Wales did constantly NO PLAN B
* Winning games - tell me how many times has Hook started a match at 10 and was in a winning position before he came off. Lets see an example... if Hook if he had stayed on against Scotland would have lost you the game. we had slept for 20 mins, after that we decided to pressure the flyhalf channel through our blindside flanker and inside centre and Hooks form as usual deserted him. Jones came on and as usual rescued the game, as another poster commented recently Hooks stats "start/win" ratio are only because he is hauled off before he loses the match entirely.
* Threat to oppostion - in what context........... just running, well lets just say Jones makes more yardage, amd rarely doesn't make the gain line and unload, as opposed to making more yards then losing the ball or given away penalties through turnovers.

A few 20 minute cameos don't a consistent flyhalf maketh

This is not anti-Hook, as I thought he had a good game, its just me replying to comments with little basis on another player, in order to promote another.

I would say let Jones start for Wales next weekend and if he doesn't manage a game better than Priestland / Hook then yes by all means Mr Gatland put Priestland at 10 and Hook to cover him.

flyhalf, that was a mighty post.

imho james hook is our best IC, in attack at any rate. preistland has really stepped up but i woouldnt start him at 10 in rwc unless we have no other option, ie jones out injured.

preistland must be content with bench duties, covering 10 and 15. hook must start in the center/second receiver. jones is the flyhalf to steer wales through our world cup campaign.

also..

the reason there is a steven jones bias on this thread is because most posters/welshfans think jones is the better option at flyhalf.

Jones hasn't had a good game for Wales in years, though he does do a good job coming off the bench to close out a game that is already won, eg. versus Scotland in 6N. Too slow and predictable . and he also makes match-losing mistakes - like the interception pass vs. England in 2010, the missed touch versus Ireland that handed them the GS.

Jones would never have scored that try on Saturday, nor would he have sunk any of those conversions. We would have lost for sure and we would be heading for the World Cup with our tails between our legs with a Jenkins-style win-loss ratio.

In their all too brief appearancces as Wales 10s, Hook and Priestland have shown us what we've been missing for these years of poor back play and far too many LOSSES. Fizz, speed, guile, big kicks. Keeping the opposition guessing - as with Priestland's first kick-off , which got us 3 points. When did SJ manage a kick-off that did anything other than ship the ball straight to the other team?

Not blaming Jones, btw. The fault is with Gatland. Once again, it is only when injuries intervene that we get some positive change!

I'll say it again: Priestland at outside half, Hook at inside centre, Jamie Roberts or JD2 at outside centre.

FHF says "apart from his own two recent tries can you give me one instance when he has created a try for anyone recently (not been part of a running line because Jones did that loads of time for the Scarlets last season) but actually an individual moment that created an opportunity for his colleagues to score a try"

Um, the try fror Shane williams vs. Scotland?

Turnovers - yes, you are right, SJ rarely gets turned over, which is a credit to him. But the reason is that he scuttles a few yards forward and goes to ground. No criticism - that's his game. But as mentioned, he makes life easy for the opposition loosies, who can concentrate their attentions on the threats outside him.

Forget about ML games - internationals are a huge step up from the quality at ML level. When was the last time SJ put in a game-changing performance for Wales? Or even outkicked his opposite number tactically, as Hook did to O'Gara this year?

As for the comparison with Wilkinson - I can't remember Jones dropping a vital goal since France in 2005. And didn't Hook "take the points on offer" against" England, with two penalties that were out of Jones' range?

Frankly I think to Halfpenny against Scotland in 2010 was the wrong option that went flukily went right for us. Be that as it may, the most important lesson of that game was that SJ who is supposed to be renown for his game management was ouththought, outkicked, and outplayed by Dan Parks of all people. That's not supposed to happen

It's a shame that, for some people on here, the only way they've got to state Hook's case is to slag off Stephen Jones, I would say the proper way to look at things is to go by the thoughts of coaches who work with these players, know them better than anyone else, pick teams to reflect how they know these players can perform and very conclusively you see, that 1. the Ospreys didn't pick Hook at 10, and 2. Wales didn't pick Hook at 10, and 3. the Lions didn't pick Hook at 10, but no, the armchair pundits on here, of course, know Hook far better than anyone who works with him day in and day out.

But then how do they go about bigging Hook up? of course they slag Stephen Jones off, leaving Hook as the default choice, unfortunately THIS is the Welsh way, pretty shabby posts by a lot of people on this thread.

Sorry if a difference of opinion is "shabby", mate. Is it okay to slag off Huw Benett, Powell etc. in quite personal terms, but not to try to state one's views on the weaknesses of Stephen Jones' game?

Hook has been repeatedly described as "a headless chicken" , a couple of posts above someone criticized his "blind alley runs, isolation, turn overs, hospital passes, kicking in field when it should be touch finder."

I must have missed the announcement that SJ has been canonized and is now above similar criticism.

There are ways and means of stating why you think a player is good. By slagging off another player to prove your point isn't exactly a productive or a reasonable way to go about it I don't think.

How abouts we are just in a lucky position of having such a talented bunch of FH's to pick from. Each have their own positive and negative attributes and can be used to play in a different way for Wales. We should be embarcing this, not trying to belittle and slag off one of the greatest servents that Welsh rugby has had for the last decade.

samuraidragon wrote:Sorry if a difference of opinion is "shabby", mate. Is it okay to slag off Huw Benett, Powell etc. in quite personal terms, but not to try to state one's views on the weaknesses of Stephen Jones' game?

Hook has been repeatedly described as "a headless chicken" , a couple of posts above someone criticized his "blind alley runs, isolation, turn overs, hospital passes, kicking in field when it should be touch finder."

I must have missed the announcement that SJ has been canonized and is now above similar criticism.

I accept your apology, when Powell and Bennett ever get near Stephen Jones's record for Wales then they shall too be accorded such favouritism, until then just run along.

Tut, tut these are nice problemd to have - 3 decent outside halves with each one bringing something different to the game - Priestland is a combination of SJ and Hooky - He can control a game and is an intelligent lad who is learning all the time, SJ is the Ronseal of the bunch and a safe bet depending on the type of game you want. Hook is both mercurial and vulnerable but is without doubt the most offensive, although don't rule Priestland out of that. I like the 2008 model Wales where we started with a strong defense and gradually wore teams down before cutting lose. The french game epitomises that and I would rather win 12 10 than lose 33 34 - This is a win, win, win situation as all the options available to Gatland have their merit. Lets rejoice in that instead of doing the usual welsh thing of imploding and in fighting. - Come on Walesss! we're back on track.

Reading through the posts on the Wales 10, it's obvious that the posters going for Hook want his loose, unstructured, keep 'em guessing (and your own team guessing!) type of play. No-one in the team can build from the majority of his plays. He is a one man band with ball in hand!
How many Welsh supporters would have ever liked Jonny Wilkinson as the Wales 10? Very few going by the opinion of the posters who applaud the way Hook plays. mmmmmm

samuraidragon wrote:Jones hasn't had a good game for Wales in years, though he does do a good job coming off the bench to close out a game that is already won, eg. versus Scotland in 6N. Too slow and predictable . and he also makes match-losing mistakes - like the interception pass vs. England in 2010, the missed touch versus Ireland that handed them the GS.

Jones would never have scored that try on Saturday, nor would he have sunk any of those conversions. We would have lost for sure and we would be heading for the World Cup with our tails between our legs with a Jenkins-style win-loss ratio.

In their all too brief appearancces as Wales 10s, Hook and Priestland have shown us what we've been missing for these years of poor back play and far too many LOSSES. Fizz, speed, guile, big kicks. Keeping the opposition guessing - as with Priestland's first kick-off , which got us 3 points. When did SJ manage a kick-off that did anything other than ship the ball straight to the other team?

Not blaming Jones, btw. The fault is with Gatland. Once again, it is only when injuries intervene that we get some positive change!

agree jones wouldnt have scored a try but then a try was comming you could see wales going through the phases whereas he wouldnt have scored himself it would have been likely a try would have been scored.

and you cant say that jones wouldnt have got those kicks as thats speculation and tbh jones is more widely regarded as a better kicker than hook.

but this is all hindsight you cant say ifs and buts, the thing is jones has a considerable amount of experience which is vital for the wc as hook can become a bit erratic and with teams like fiji and samoa in our group we dont want to be too erratic.

personally i can see hook (dare i say it priestland) starting s.a (most likely hook) with sj coming on second half to calm down the game, then priestland starting against nambia with SJ starting against fiji and samoa to keep the games under control with hook coming on second half when the islanders are tired.


or thats what i would do anyway

KRUSTY - aren't you contradicting yourself ? On the Wales wingers against South Africa thread last night

krusty wrote:Williams plays everywhere anyway. He is very special.

I think Wales should start with Hook at 12 and move him to 10 in the 2nd half when teams are tired.

Very impressed with Wales spending the entire first half tackling and still came out the fitter of the two.

krusty wrote:Hook has to now be given the 10 shirt on a permanent basis. He is happier there & creates more. I also think his defence is not as great at 12/13 & he sometimes throws those wild passes in the centre. He's going to play 10 at Perpignan so I hope Gatland does the right thing

Hook? George Hook? Isn't he Iirish and a little old and slightly overweight?

O/H for me should be rotated (horses for courses if you like).

Priestland hasnt really put a foot wrong over the last 2 games considering they were his first internationals. Hook has shown up well at 10 when moved there, we all know what you'll get with Stephen Jones.

I think of 2008 and the players were fighting for there positions, we've said before players have become "untouchable" and their form has dropped consequently.

I'd give Hook another go at fullback (chill before replying with some angry stats as to why he shouldnt) against argentina with Priestland starting at O/H and S.Jones on the bench. That way you can bring on S.Jones in the second half (needs gametime?) and move Priestland (fb)/Hook(centre). If Henson doesnt pull through and Byrne plays as he has the last 2 years, Gatland will realistically look at Hook at Centre/Fullback cover aswell.



We moan about Hooks versatility meaning he hasnt nailed down a position yet, so why not use him as a damn-good utility player until he does?!

samuraidragon wrote:FHF says "apart from his own two recent tries can you give me one instance when he has created a try for anyone recently (not been part of a running line because Jones did that loads of time for the Scarlets last season) but actually an individual moment that created an opportunity for his colleagues to score a try"

Um, the try fror Shane williams vs. Scotland?

Turnovers - yes, you are right, SJ rarely gets turned over, which is a credit to him. But the reason is that he scuttles a few yards forward and goes to ground. No criticism - that's his game. But as mentioned, he makes life easy for the opposition loosies, who can concentrate their attentions on the threats outside him.

Forget about ML games - internationals are a huge step up from the quality at ML level. When was the last time SJ put in a game-changing performance for Wales? Or even outkicked his opposite number tactically, as Hook did to O'Gara this year?

As for the comparison with Wilkinson - I can't remember Jones dropping a vital goal since France in 2005. And didn't Hook "take the points on offer" against" England, with two penalties that were out of Jones' range?

Frankly I think to Halfpenny against Scotland in 2010 was the wrong option that went flukily went right for us. Be that as it may, the most important lesson of that game was that SJ who is supposed to be renown for his game management was ouththought, outkicked, and outplayed by Dan Parks of all people. That's not supposed to happen

Samurai
The Scotland game is a classic example of two myths

1. Creative play!!, not running rugby!!
Everytime you are asked this question you can only come up with the time Hook went thro our static prop and 8, and then PASSED not to the try scorer but another player who carried the movement on, then passed. IT WAS A RUNNING MOVEMENT NOT AN INDIVIDUAL CREATIVE MOMENT.

2. Hook starts, another win!!.... or the reality
(Hook starts well, gets found out, progessively worse plays, gets hauled off before match is lost, another flyhalf comes on and turns game round.)
It was a classic example in that game of Hook starts a game at 10 plays good, then plays dire...... Remember he played well against what most of us think was Scotlands worst performance in 10 years. Hook played progressively worse from the 25 min onwards to such an extent that he was hauled off, we sussed him out by then, and he almost gave two tries away as a direct result of his decision making

3. Look at the England game 2009 when Hook deliberately and confidently took the initial easy penalty kick and missed, then took another and missed!!, in the end Gatland had to get "Ginger" Jenkins down to the touchline to tell Jones not to give Hook any more attempts, next kick straight through the posts.

4. Game awareness and tactics ............. strewth ummmm 3 words HOOK/FRENCH MATCH...... Helloooooo tap tap tap are you in there.

Guys don't start slating a player just to promote another, or having selective memory.

Hook played his best game overall as a 10 last weekend, but you seem afraid to let Jones have a start next match .......wonder why?

gavstar wrote:Reading through the posts on the Wales 10, it's obvious that the posters going for Hook want his loose, unstructured, keep 'em guessing (and your own team guessing!) type of play. No-one in the team can build from the majority of his plays. He is a one man band with ball in hand!
How many Welsh supporters would have ever liked Jonny Wilkinson as the Wales 10? Very few going by the opinion of the posters who applaud the way Hook plays. mmmmmm

I think you find most Welsh fans would rather structured aware 10 who releases running rugby e.g. Carter, Wilko, Sexton, or Jones, than a loose cannon who gets turned over, cannot straighten the offensive, and is defensively poor e.g. Quade, Hook

Well Hook is 10 v the Pumas so lets see then

I still think Welsh public and press would have slated Wilko if he had been a Welsh 10, because the Welsh love 'the romance of the shirt', which is unfortunate for a knowledgeable rugby nation. Mention '10' and sanity goes out the window!

On Jonny Wilkinson - he was dropped by England on several occasions on acccount of form. Until very recently, it was assumed by most England fans that he was going to the world cup as number two to Toby Flood. However, in the last few games Flood's form has evaporated whereas Wilkinson , to do him credit, has stepped up a few notches and was MoM against Wales.

That seems like a sensible management approach. Look at international-level performances, form, and wins - not ancient history.

Assuming that it is not yet against forum rules to raise these questions -when was the last time Stephen Jones put in a MoM performance for Wales? When was the last time Wales beat a higher-ranking country with SJ at the helm?

No need to mention Hook in your answers. Just the facts, please.

When was the last time SJ played in a team with an on form scrum half? is also a question I would like answered.

What people seem to be forgetting is that this is a team game. Yes the FH position is important, but there are 14 other players on the pitch as well. Why would SJ have to put in a MotM performance to warrent his place? Do you demand that of all the other players too? That seems a bit ridiculous to me. Otherwise you'd be calling for 14 changes each game.....

when was the last time Wales put out a decent front five? when was the last time Gatland changed the rather limited tactics? when was the last time we had a balanced centre pairing? when was the last time we had a fullback in form? when was the last time we had a scrumhalf in form?

no need to mention SJ in your answers. Just the facts, please.

last two questions i can answer.

on form fullback-i believe that was at twickers. (then he broke his leg)
scrum half- MS last saturday

welshy824 wrote:last two questions i can answer.

on form fullback-i believe that was at twickers. (then he broke his leg)
scrum half- MS last saturday

convenient for the Hook fanboys eh?

Ok - as you can't obviously answer the questions, let me do it for you.

The last time Wales beat a higher ranking team with Stephen Jones at 10 was 30 months ago, England at the Millenium in 2009.

The last time Wales beat a higher ranking team with Hook at 10 was 4 days ago.

Stpehen Jones got MoM against ITALY in 2009.

Hook won the MoM match from 10 against England in 2008 and 2007. He was also MoM against Ireland from 10 this year.

I'm not really sure why people even debate things like the front 5, the backrow, the centres and the wings because according to you James Hook is a one man team, hell we could put out the teletubbies with him at 10 and even the all-blacks would get mullered.

And according to you mediocre performances from SJ are always the fault of Phillips, the front 5, the full back, Gatland, etc., etc.

and according to you the mediocre performances of Wales other 14 players are all Stephen Jones's fault.

Rugbydreamer:

Look at England last week they won most of the ball but could not use it, who is getting the stick, Flood and correctly so. Wales V NZ last year in NZ, Wales had 65% of the ball first half and we had parity in the second half and we were stuffed, the forwards did the hard work but Jones (and Phillips) kicked it all away and badly. The FH is pivotal to the teams performance hence the stick S Jones gets when we keep getting beaten considering we have our best forwards for many years. It is not a coincidence when S Jones is not playing Wales perform better in terms of results.

I thought Preistland was excellent in the last two games his long touch finders took a lot of pressure off, his kick offs, his breaks, passing and he made his penalties and tackles. Wales lost a close game at Twickenham in his first start at 10, in all the games in England controlled by S Jones have we ever won playing 10 (Hook yes 2008, N Jenkins Wembley)? During the 6N against England at home, we lost and there was little penetration and we had a lot more ball than we had on Sat. Sat just gone we had one chance and it was taken with only 25% possession, is it a coincidence Wales won without S Jones?

I don't actually agree with Flood getting all the stick though alun, so I can't really agree with the point you are making there.

I just honestly can't believe how much people are piling on just one player when it's a team game. How much do you think one player can do?

I honestly, am completely baffled by those that are saying SJ is the only difference between winning and losing against England. Was the team that won against England identical to taht that lost against them in the 6N's apart from SJ? no, didn't think so.

Honestly, this is just ridiculous.

I'm not saying Stevo is amazing, he has his faults (as do Hook and Priestland), but for people to say he is the only reason we have lost certain games.....