The Generation That Can't Let Go - CONTAINS SPOILERS

On the surface, the ending of Summerslam was well booked, with lots of questions arising from the show:
- Did Triple H screw Cena deliberately, and if so, why?
- Why did Nash get involved?
- Did Triple H know Nash was going to get involved?
- What involvement do Stephanie, Vince and Laurenaitis have in what went on?
It also sets up Cena, Punk and Mysterio as having genuine claims to a title shot.

But...

One month ago CM Punk was the hottest star in wrestling, and it wasn't a surprise, because many people already knew he could be if WWE would just get behind him. Finally, it appeared, they were behind him.

One thing that has always, without fail, been key to wrestling promotions doing big business, is stars. You can have the best booking in the world and fail because nobody perceives the wrestlers on your roster to be any more important than anyone else (for example ROH who have consistently presented the best product in the US wrestling scene for almost a decade, without experiencing substantial growth). WWE has always revolved around the individuals rather than the wrestling or even the booking: Bruno, Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Cena. It is a cult of personality, if you pardon the pun. WWE proved that in 1999 when their booking was often horrendous but they did the best business they've ever done, because they had Austin, The Rock, Mick Foley at his peak, Undertaker, Triple H, Kane, The Big Show; all pushed as huge stars. One of the main reasons that TNA more often than not has failed is because "management" is presented as being stronger than the wrestlers, whether it is physical or political strength, and the would-be stars are emasculated and undermined as a result. The adults in the room, the true stars of the show, are not the wrestlers wrestling in main events of wrestling shows.

All they had to do was push Punk as a major star. They didn't need the worked shoot stuff any more; just put him in the top storylines and tell the viewers that this guy is important, he's the real deal, you will want to see this guy.

Instead, WWE saw it as a challenge. Here, in their eyes, was this wrestler who was full of his own hype, and a bunch of marks who fell for his nonsense. An indy guy, not a WWE creation, who had the gall to think he could get over using his own material.

Now obviously, they know they can make money out of him, so they're not going to completely bury him. But there was no way the company would get behind him as its next big thing with a good-faith push. There was no way he would get the push that Cena got, or the push that Batista got, or the push that Lesnar got, or the push that Lex Luger got. He would get the Bret Hart push, the reluctant, second-guessing "we're not really convinced about this wrestler but you seem to like him so here you go" push.

WWE's goal seems to be to subtly show Punk his place in the heirarchy. To prove to the fans that he's not as Cerebral as the Cerebral Assassin. He's not as honourable as John Cena. And, hell, he's not 7 feet tall, he's not 300lbs, he doesn't turn heads in airports, he's not a genuine badass, so he's obviously no Kevin Nash either.

In 2011, the hottest star in wrestling for years was bigfooted by Kevin Nash. However way you look at it - yes it was after a gruelling 25 minute match, yes he was blindsided - CM Punk was used to get Kevin Nash over, in 2011. Alberto Del Rio cashed in and won the world title? So what, did you see Kevin Nash came back?

CM Punk could squash Kevin Nash in matches up and down the country for the next six months, but the damage is done. The horse has bolted. Kevin Nash has now bigfooted Punk, and that can't be erased.

Since the end of the Monday Night Wars, the entire US wrestling scene has created one star. One wrestler, of the hundreds we've seen in WWE, TNA, ROH and the others, in the past decade, who makes a difference to attendances, ratings and buyrates. And even he is so polarising that it's possible he holds the industry back at the same time.

Whether Bruno and Hogan were better wrestlers, performers, entertainers, whatever you want to judge it on, is a moot point. They wouldn't have been anything like the same draws today, if they'd drawn at all. They had a crucial advantage. They didn't have the previous generation trying to shatter their aura at every turn. They were part of a WWWF/WWF that wanted them to draw, that wanted to maximise its earnings.

While all the kids are playing around scrapping over the world title (Punk, Del Rio, Mysterio, even Cena. Why don't they get a couple more belts made and all just have one each?), the important people are the ones who were old news in 2001. The adults in the room, the true stars of the show, are the same as ever: The Generation That Can't Let Go. The ones who made it to the top, and then climbed even higher, infiltrating the ranks of management, making the decisions, and ensuring that nobody from this generation gets the opportunities they got.

In 2011, Kevin Nash bigfooted the hottest star in wrestling. If any sentence better sums up the rotten state of the industry, if any tale is more telling, I'm yet to hear it.

Article of the decade.

What you said is very true,
the point I will make is WWE don't seem interested in making new stars they see that 10 years is viewed by everyone as a golden era in wrestling and say why make new guys when we can get the guys from that time back.

I look it as a lost generation because until the generation from 10yrs ago either get too old or die then they will focus on the new generation and by that time the generation we're in now will have come and gone.

Whilst I agree with the point you are making, I think we can't get carried away and call it a opporunity missed because Punk was squashed by Nash. I have seen some awful squashes the worst being Animal at 2001 Sin PPV in WCW. This can be the making of Punk provided he is not de-moted in anyway.

It was too soon for Del Rio to be champ in my eyes. Probably would've suited Miz if his push had continued. But again it shows that the WWE for the last 6 years has struggled creatively.

TNA is like WCW. Bloated Main Event Card, superb cruiserweight division (X-Division) and better tag team divisions.

WWE is in such a bad place. Vince said he believed in opportunity, and while there is a lack in quality wrestlers like the WWE have had in the past with Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Steve Austin, they seem to lack the direction of where to push people. WWE were lucky with timing too. Hogan accepted his time in the spotlight had gone, Bret Hart's time had passed after injury, as did Austin's, though I will forgive him for not putting over Jarrett or Lesnar and now HHH is now moving out of the wrestling scene so evolution and opporunity that Vince talks about is mostly luck of the other guys 'moving over'. Now they are left with Cena who is healthy and dedicated and by and large his time as a Main Eventer are over as there is no-one left for him to squash.

The future is CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. They need to pushed and have the push maintained for the sake of the product.

I think you only have to look at the Miz this year to see the mould of how WWE handle their new young talent, It really isn't hard to book someone a star, Miz could easily have been kept in the title picture they just choose not too.

2 quick points.

The rock squashing cena could be seen as a worse version of your complaint now, an inactive movie star costing wrestlings biggest name in the biggest ppv of the year.

IMO cm punk is only a big or hot star to those who watched, enjoyed and pine for this generation that can't quit.

Triple h buried Punk,which I said ages ago. Even worse Nash did the deed.

I also said ww don't know how to make new stars,right now punk winning is a afterthought.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit Davies, obviously you might turn out to be right, but I don't think Punk has been buried yet at all. That one kick will not be remembered or used to show that Nash is better or anything like that, he hasn't been squashed. I think WWE have used Nash because he is somebody they can say is a WWE "Legend", and CM Punk going over Nash will mean more than CM Punk going over Alberto Del Rio or Rey Mysterio.

I don't even think it matters why CM Punk is getting pushed, whether WWE believes in him or if it is just because he gets a good fan reaction, all that matters is he is getting a push, and if he continues to get the same reaction he got at Money in the Bank, hell even last night where he wasn't even in his home town they were hot for CM Punk, and WWE will keep on pushing him as long as he gets that kind of reaction.

I think it's unfair to knock WWE using Nash now, sure if in a month or two's time CM Punk has been used to put Kevin Nash over, then sure I'll be complaining with you, but right now we have no idea where WWE will take this and who will end up looking better out of it. You've already pointed out why WWE have had to use Kevin Nash now, simply because they have no stars to get CM Punk over, but establishing CM Punk as a main eventer is a start, as that's one they will have created, if he has to go over Kevin Nash to do that, then that's fair enough.

I think people are being far too unfair by criticizing it already before we even know how things will pan out.

I would say Nash is a WCW legend and at this time he is well past it. Some of his Tna matches towards the end was awful.

I don't see how this is helping Punk if he's getting Jacknifed by Nash?

I firmly believe it will be a long time until we see Punk holding that strap again.

I think even if Punk does hold the strap again, it won't mean anything.

It's not about titles. It's about portraying Punk as a star. Titles help, but they don't make someone a star. Sheamus and Jack Swagger held world titles but they weren't presented as being a big deal.

The fact is, Kevin Nash bigfooted him. Punk can beat Nash in 30 seconds every night for the next year, but the damage is done.

WWE clearly has no genuine faith in Punk; the old guard and the non-wrestlers will leech his heat off him until he has none left, and then they'll be able to say they told us so.

Classic case of not being able to let go. Why not have a monster heel debut from fcw?

I bet Nash says "im all about the money" thus why Del Rio got him to do the dirty work.

Whilst it's clear you are disenchanted with this turn of events crips what do you make of the thought that as it is the old school crowd who see cm punk as a star (I can't see any newer fans understanding half of his promos or enjoying him stealing the title) they have brought back the old school.

Could this not just be the foundations for the HHH and Punk fued? HHH originally helping Punk before turning to help his "Klique" buddy. Or simply Punk accusing HHH of getting his friend in to help get the title off Punk?

Because Punk wouldn't get as much going over somebody from FCW.

I don't think see why Kevin Nash attacking him after he's just had a long match, with a sneak attack seems so huge to you in terms of destroying CM Punk's character.

I think you're jumping the gun completley, you may turn out to be right crips, but right now you're dissapointed in your assumptions of the next step rather than what has actually happened.

Ent wrote:Whilst it's clear you are disenchanted with this turn of events crips what do you make of the thought that as it is the old school crowd who see cm punk as a star (I can't see any newer fans understanding half of his promos or enjoying him stealing the title) they have brought back the old school.

I don't really subscribe to this. I see your point, that the people who enjoy Punk's promos are likely to be long-term fans, but I think they are also more likely to be the kind of fans who crave originality. I would presume that the people who like his promos are also the ones who are the most informed about backstage politics and would therefore be rooting for the untried, younger wrestlers to get to the top.

I just don't get Kevin Nash,who can forget the finger poke of doom? And Big kevs long industrial career of being in hokey storylines.

Punk being associated in any format with Kevin Nash is just not healthy.

Invincible, all I can say is look at the overwhelming historical evidence that supports my assumpion.

It may well be that tonight on Raw Triple H and Kevin Nash both cut promos gushing about CM Punk's incredible abilities before he completely obliterates both of them single-handedly, and the torch is passed. If that is the case I will happily admit I was wrong. But I expect more ambiguity, and I expect that, if you read carefully between the lines, you'll realise the game that is being played here.

HitmanOwl wrote:Punk being associated in any format with Kevin Nash is just not healthy.

That sums it up. It just doesn't do Punk any good to even be associated with Nash. Nash doesn't have a history of benefitting careers. He is a manipulator, and his only interest is in doing what's best for Kevin Nash. He has no investment in CM Punk's success.

There is a pattern in Kevin Nash's career, especially in his WCW and TNA days: Nash works with younger wrestler and tells everyone that will listen that he just wants to "give back" to the industry and help that wrestler get over, storyline is built to a final climax where the younger wrestler will get the victory and receive the rub from Nash, Nash avoids job and damages younger wrestler's career.

It's happened over and over and over again. Everyone knows it, not least Triple H, who now has his perfect and willing scapegoat in place.

I like the idea of this angle..they could take it a few different directions. Who wanted Punk taken out? Was it ADR? Was it HHH? Is HHH determined to keep Punk away from the title now making him an anti-hero type etc etc.

My one big question is why Nash? They could have used someone else to do that spot and not only would it have added to the feud, it might have helped push someone else further into the limelight rather than someone who doesnt really need it.

Why not Truth? He has plenty of reasons for wanting to mess up a title picture...not sure why he would then let Del Rio win but i'm sure a reason could be thought up, probably involving little jimmies.. or maybe Zeke! Would have been believeable to show him as hired muscle again and give him some main event experience, even if it was to just interfere..

I dont know...I like the angle, just not sure why Nash in that angle. He could quite easily just appear on the ramp and get a reaction..doesnt need a spot with the Punk to get over..that should be saved for a rival/up-and-comer surely? :S

What exactly do you see happening here crips? I'd like to know how you see this one panning out, because I am pretty confused about what they are trying to do here.

They had a hot feud with a hot star, and one that got them a 5* match and a PPV that will be remembered fondly...and then they dump Del Rio in the mix, with HHH being a guest referee for no reason that I can think of, and worst of all they get Nash out of his retirement home to boot the hot young thing into oblivion. It seems haphazard, confusing and worrying all at once -- how do they propose to get Punk over as the guy from here, when the characters he now appears to be dealing with have a fair reputation for looking out for numero uno?

Ok crips i have read through here and have understood your points and have also read whatever has been said about Nash on ask the tart that has been written by you or others and I see what your saying but how would you of ended it?

I am nowhere near as disappointed as some people seem to be.

I think there is a lot of IF's and BUT's being banded around before anyone has even seen where the storyline is going.

I dont for a minute buy that CM Punk has lost all his momentum because he was taken out by Nash after he had just been in a championship match.Just because everyone knows what an idiot Nash is behind the scenes doesnt mean that the storyline is suddenly dead in the water.

Lets not forget that 2 years ago CM Punk became world champion at Summerslam only to be destroyed by a returning Undertaker before going on to be squashed for 2 months.Yet he still came back to be the hottest wrestler of the current times.I am not saying that Nash is in Taker's class but I really am not going to start believing that everything has turned bad over night.

Personally I am intrigued as to where the story is going,we have four guys now in the title picture.We don't know Nash's motives and we do not know where Triple H's loyalties lie.

It could be that come Survivor Series we are back here debating and we are all agreeing with Crips that Punk was buried by the "Kliq" but until that happens I just cannot completely dismiss the fact that I have been more entertained in the last 2 moths by WWE than I have in almost ten years.

And maybe I am a mark,and maybe there are a lot of people that disagree with me,which is absolutely fine but for the time being I still have faith that Punk has a huge part to play in proceedings.

I am sure a lot of people were incensed and enraged when the hottest star of the 90's,Stone Cold, was beaten in matches by Vince and Shane McMahon.But look where that led to.Stone Cold became the anti-hero,if his feud with McMahon hadnt happened then we wouldnt be acknowledging Stone Cold as one of the greatest of all time.

WWE have a track record of mucking things up,and I am the first to admit that they have made next to no stars in almost a decade but maybe,just maybe this is the beginning.Punk feuding with HHH/Nash/ADR (provided he goes over in the end) will not be detrimental to his career in my opinion.Because he will be fighting back against the establishment and the crowd will love him for it.

I agree this could go sour,history almost confirms it, and if it does then I will be in alliance with those who condemned this decision but as of right now I am sticking by it and seeing how it plays out.Because right now,in my opinion,WWE have a huge chance to make a global star.

You are definately jumping the gun crips, in fact this article is kinda pointless if you ask me.

Kevin Nash hasn't 'bigfooted' anyone, he cost CM Punk the WWE Title. Correct me if I'm wrong but 'bigfooting' someone in my book is burying them. Nash didn't bury Punk, he cost him the match.

I also don't understand the argument about 'tuning in to find out what happens next'. Surely that's what makes good TV right? Making the viewers want to tune in? If we knew what was going to happen, it wouldn't quite be the same, would it. And I don't know how anyone can predict what's going to happen next, no one in their right mind would have predicted what happened last night so I'm trying to look at it from the glass half full perspective and think its got potential to actually give Punk a huge storyline. Let's face it, he's not going to slip back into the mid card is he, he's going to be the 2011 version of Austin taking on the higher powers of the company. I don't think John Laurenitis and Stephanie were there to make up the numbers, its definately all part of a bigger picture.

Either way, Punk talking about HHH and Nash and their ego's and past reputations is something I'm looking forward to seeing.

Its the best storyline the WWE has produced in a long time, yet people are writing it off just as its getting warmed up, you people are unbelievable!

Anyone else but Nash I would be happy. The fact he can't go anymore makes it look less credible for me.

HitmanOwl wrote:Anyone else but Nash I would be happy. The fact he can't go anymore makes it look less credible for me.

Nash was in the Kilq with Trips. It makes sense that he be part of some kind of 2higher power" story involving HHH.

I agree 100% with Mr H. I think people are jumping the gun too quickly here. I know I'll be watching RAW tonight because I want to see where this is going.

Everyone is talking as if Kevin Nash is returning as a superstar, if that is the case then what you are all saying is relevant. But surely his return was quite simply to be involved in the screwing of CM Punk. And the question to be answered now is; who else is involved? was it Nash, Laurinitis, Vince, HHH??? And if this is the case then it was well booked and gives Punk further amunition and provides him with an opportunity to turn face.

In response to the article (which is a good read by the way) i wouldnt agree that the introduction of Nash is bad thing! Creative imo have finally started to strike a cord with the fans of the 'attitue era' or even pander to them with the way the punk story has evolved since that promo last month. for example:

Punks 'worked shoot' promos
Trying to turn punk into that anti estbalishment peoples hero ala SCSA
Setting up HHH as a vince esque comader in chief that has all the power
Bringing back Nash a big player in the attitute era

All of the above says to me that wwe are trying to cater to the 25's plus with this angle and by involving cena it still has that PG pulling power that makes the $'s these days.

Going back to Nash's return to storied work, imo regardless of the level he finshed with TNA it can never hurt to insert a former worlds champion with the knowledge, ability, experiance and pulling power that nash brings to the table and by using him in this storyline can only add to the mature fan pop that i beleive the wwe are seeking.

They might not be getting exactly right but they are trying to get over with the mature fans and this can only be viewed as a positive thing for wwe

I think having Nash makes perfect sense, it all ties in, Triple H may not be heel yet but this for me is a clear indication that he's going down that rout, HHH becomes boss and has problems with two top men, Hunter turns to someone he trusts, Hunter knows that Nash is so much bigger and stronger than Punk so screws Cena and it allows the WWE to crown a champ who wont be a problem (Del Rio), Nash is only involved because he is a guy Helmsley knows he can trust, remember HHH's promo the night after WM14, he was rebuilding DX and said he had to pick a guy he could trust, same applies for this

As long as the booking remains consistent and good I dont see why we wont have a huge storyline,that if done correctly,can carry us all the way to Mania next year.

Having a heel management is always a good thing,it creates an opportunity for someone to rise against them and this is Punk's chance to shine more than ever.

Nash,in my opinion,has been clearly hired as an enforcer and his involvement does not spoil anything.

WWE is becoming compulsive viewing right now and that is only a good thing.Sure it could go wrong,but then again I support Everton so I am use to disappointment.Right now they have my full support and I think this storyline is going places.

Good thought provoking article however I disagree....

I'm with Gaffer on this one - I find with Nash it makes sense. He's associated with HHH through The Kliq, why wouldn't Hunter seek his assistance? Its only poor booking if the explaination makes no sense...

Would people be as intrigued to watch Raw had Triple H pedigreed Punk? I doubt it

the WWE website has a headline up advertising tonights RAW: "COO or Coup?" and mention both Nash and ADR. Could be hinting that they are all in cahoots.

In a way I am jealous that some of you are so lacking in cynicism. But then again, the opposite of cynicism is naivety...

I'm sure the same arguments will come out in force this morning after Raw - let's see where they go with it, etc.

I love a good mystery storyline, I just don't think this is a good mystery storyline. Or rather, I don't want to see a mystery storyline where most of the characters don't even wrestle!

I do not love wrestling promotions where the key storylines revolve around the on-air authority figures (and I've been consistent in that criticism of TNA). In 1998 when it was fresh and new I liked the involvement of Vince and Bischoff in storylines. In 2011 it is not fresh and new, and it doesn't draw.

What we've got is the hottest new main eventer to come along in over a decade, and he's been booked against two wrestlers who have proved time and time again in their careers that they can't let go. Two wrestlers who, more than anyone else in the business I can think of (more than Hogan!) have delighted in taking potential stars and making it their business to undercut those wrestlers, both on screen and backstage. Look at the comments they've both directed at Punk in recent weeks: overrated, skinny, indy-riffic, he looks like he works at Waffle House, needs to hit the weights. What do any of these things have to do with the CM Punk character? At least when people call him a hypocrite and a sell-out it ties into the storyline to an extent. These comments are all aimed at undermining him. Where is the commentator saying "he can't be overrated because he's a four-time world champion"? Where is the voice saying "He may not be the most muscular, but that makes his achievements all the more impressive"? Why is nobody talking about his toughness, his ability, his victories? Why is nobody saying that CM Punk could clearly kill Nash?!

Imagine in 1996 when Nash and Hall invaded WCW. Why did it change the business? Because everyone acted like it was the biggest thing to ever happen in wrestling! It wasn't really - Nash had bombed as WWF champion, and Hall had never been in the top echelong of stars. It was the equivalent of Sheamus and The Miz jumping to TNA today - but WCW treated Nash and Hall as huge, game-changing names. Would it have done them any favours for Verne Gagne or Superstar Billy Graham to have come out on Nitro and cut a promo about how they were box office failures who only got to the main event in the WWF because they were friends with the right people? Would it have helped if Junkyard Dog had come out and rolled video footage of Oz and the Diamond Studd? No. Everyone knew their role was to build them up, not knock them down.

And any time someone is both writing the scripts and then appearing on screen, it gets out of control. Even Vince McMahon, a great heel character in the late 90s, was eventually consumed by his own ego; winning the Royal Rumble, winning the world title, and evolving over the years into a character who emasculated most of his roster. Look at Dusty Rhodes in the NWA, Jeff Jarrett in TNA, Kevin Nash in WCW, and look at Triple H today. It's clear that nobody in the creative process should be on TV. They can't help but write the best material for themselves. It's human nature.

It would be great to save this thread and open it up in a year's time and look back at what happened and whether it did ultimately help to establish CM Punk, not only as a main eventer but as a genuine star. I've got no doubt that in a year's time he'll be a main eventer. But this is a wrestler who should have been a huge, game-changing, name, not just another Miz.

I really hope that Triple H and Kevin Nash do all they can to establish Punk and to make WWE money. But like I said, all historical evidence points to them leeching away his heat and gradually tearing down his act, to the point that in a year's time he's, at best, just another main eventer.

I'd like to think that HHH would be able to let go of his ego in his role, where frighteningly, he has legitimate decision making power. He should be making decisions that benefit the company and elevate stars to make money -- if he is tearing them down already it doesn't bode well.

Fortunately, I think Punk is more than capable of holding his own on the mic against these insults, and I think he will still be able to establish himself up there with the best, with or without help from HHH, or strange booking.

WM this year may be the acid test. If he faces HHH as seems likely, he has to go over clean. If he doesn't it looks like another power play by the King of them.

I think it’s rather a knee jerk reaction and actually WWE have once again played the IWC.
What would irk the IWC the most? what would annoy them and get them writing blogs? moaning on Twitter? Coming on places like here and venting their frustrations that their champion had his moment ruined by one of the biggest backstage political players and kliq member.
Instantly it drives the IWC to harp on about comparisons to TNA, to WCW, to the older gen using their clout, that the WWE have failed once more to recognise a star in the making.
But what will it do? People will become more and more passionate about Punk, the clamour for him will intensify.
For me the worst thing they could do with Punk right now is actually give him the strap, he needs to be the guy that faces insurmountable odds, that never quite manages to beat the Man.
Most of you will recall the Austin/McMahon feud, for me when it worked best was when Austin had his back against the wall, where it looked impossible that he could defeat foe after foe after foe.
Not in a SuperCena type way where you always know come the end he’ll be grinning at the kids in the front row after barely breaking a sweat but through sheer grit and determination to lift aloft the title once more. To give a fleeting moment of glory only for then it to be once again taken away and he’s kicked back down to the start again.

I agree that would help turn Punk into a bigger star Hero. I just think that, unlike Austin, Punk isn't surrounded by people who are there to make him look stronger. Triple H and Kevin Nash are not trying to put Punk over. When Austin was getting pushed, everyone around him treated him as a star. Vince McMahon, Gorilla Monsoon, Jim Ross, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Gerald Brisco, Pat Patterson, Mick Foley...

I think people are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm not annoyed that Punk was cheated out of the title. I admire CM Punk's work, but that doesn't mean I want him to win every match. I just want to see him given the opportunity to be a major featured star that he has had to scratch and claw to earn. A good faith push. And I constantly get the impression that WWE doesn't have 100% faith in him, or at least they don't want to make the most of his talent. When you muddy the waters like WWE has done, you end up with everyone being less over.

As much as I didn't want the OP to ring true, with every passing RAW and PPV it's beginning to look like it is. When I read Nash's cutdowns of Punk this morning, my heart sank. And this was from a guy that was praising Punk to high heaven on his twitter account only a month ago. Good for business Kev? Couldn't be further from the truth.

There'll probably be a little spike in the ratings for RAW this week too. But as always with the WWE, it won't last.

I'm many things but defiinitely not naive, disagreeing with the well written OP doesn't make anyone naive and its a tad pompus to suggest as much

Gaffer you beat me to it, its laughable when people try to be patronising on an internet forum. I'm definately not naïve, I'm just open minded, and I'd rather be open minded than ridiculously negative. Its draining reading such lengthy, boring, uninspiring drivel with a few long words. If someone was stood on top of a building crips, you could definately make them jump.

Given the whole 'shoot' thing that Punks got going on, it makes perfect storyline sense for him to go up against the guys who notoriously politicked their way into main event stardom. Punk looked every bit the anti hero when security blocked his path last night, and seeing as the plan is for Punk to face HHH at Survivor Series, it means he is involved in a hot storyline and I would be amazed if he didn't come out of that fued looking stronger than ever.

Triple H is being booked as the biggest star on Raw right now so will Punk not benefit from feuding against him... With the title on Del Rio it certainly seems secondary to all the COO stuff

Brilliantly written article Crips, but so wrong. As was suggesting that anyone who believes this is a good storyline that is going somewhere is "naive".

CM Punk wasn't buried at Summerslam. And neither was his momentum. For weeks he's been talking about the antics Triple H is reknowned for, then at Summerslam, one of those most notorious antics rears it's ugly head and costs him the title. If that's not furtherance of a story I don't know what is?

And on Raw, yes he was called skinny, indy-riffic, waffle house worker etc. But he's also been alllowed to say his fair share of cutting material about both Triple H and Nash. You're just presenting it as a one sided story - when it's not. It's all making the feud personal - which is what makes the best feuds.

CM Punk is being built up as an enemy of the establishment and the powerful old guard. Therefore, it could ONLY really be Kevin Nash who attacked him. It makes perfect sense.

Totally agree ED

You can't just expect established names like Triple H and Nash to come out, lube up and let Punk ride them stupid, you have to allow others to get their digs in so when Punk does talk it becomes more powerful, responding to a bully is more impactful than just having Punk berate them without responce or having them suddenly wax lyrical about Punk

I don't even think the things they are saying are that damaging, I'm not sure whether I said it on this thread or another, but I think pointing out the fact he isn't a hugely built guy means he has more of a connecion with the fans as he becomes more like them rather than this unotainable dream.

Electric Demon wrote:CM Punk is being built up as an enemy of the establishment and the powerful old guard. Therefore, it could ONLY really be Kevin Nash who attacked him. It makes perfect sense.

I've said before that i like the storyline but wish it had been someone other than Nash. Part of me still think thats a bit, however after reading some of the posts and especially the line above...it makes sense now why it was Nash. If they are going down that route of course..

Punk went up against Vince and won...he took the belt and left (for 8 days). Now he's up against the politics. Those guys in the back who through their weight around, if you believe the rumours, and get the booking they want, the matches they want and bury who they want. These guys have a rep and most wrestling fans will know this. Some wont, which is where i'm hoping Punk will be let loose on the mic again so people WILL know and have it talked about on commentary too. Punk can then "beat" these guys too so a) it gets Punk over even more and b) makes HHH and Nash look good even if the rumours are true. They could even fit Colt Cabana in to back Punk up at various times as we have all seen the clip of HHH pedigreeing Colt...I dont really want to see stable vs stable though. Punk on his own is enough.

Regardless of view its got people talking about it all and whether you agree with it or not, wrestling fans will be watching to either see their predictions of crashing and burning come true or to see a rather epic storyline play out. I'm hoping for the epic storyline!

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:I don't even think the things they are saying are that damaging, I'm not sure whether I said it on this thread or another, but I think pointing out the fact he isn't a hugely built guy means he has more of a connecion with the fans as he becomes more like them rather than this unotainable dream.

He isn't supposed to be one of the fans, he is supposed to be a superstar. Wrestlers are supposed to have a physique that is set apart, a breed of their own. They need something to make them special, something that makes fans interested. If they keep pointing out that he looks like the regular man on the street how are they supposed to book him believably against the 7ft Kevin Nash or the 270 pound HHH?

liverbnz wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:I don't even think the things they are saying are that damaging, I'm not sure whether I said it on this thread or another, but I think pointing out the fact he isn't a hugely built guy means he has more of a connecion with the fans as he becomes more like them rather than this unotainable dream.

He isn't supposed to be one of the fans, he is supposed to be a superstar. Wrestlers are supposed to have a physique that is set apart, a breed of their own. They need something to make them special, something that makes fans interested. If they keep pointing out that he looks like the regular man on the street how are they supposed to book him believably against the 7ft Kevin Nash or the 270 pound HHH?

And yet when a wrestler dies whats the first thing people point to "oh he had to get big and take steroids because there's so much pressure to break into the business" your statement is whats wrong with everything.

Pro Wrestlers are seen differently now than they where in the 80s and 90s, no longer is the big body builder physique the only way to get over, particularly if its known you have any kind of Martial Arts back ground , something that lets people know they can legitimately beat anyone any time although they don't appear unbeatable

Bret, I didn't say that a wrestler had to be big, I was only saying not to (constantly) point out Punk's stature.

Gaffer, fair point.

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:In a way I am jealous that some of you are so lacking in cynicism. But then again, the opposite of cynicism is naivety...

I'm sure the same arguments will come out in force this morning after Raw - let's see where they go with it, etc.

The point is that as of yet nothing bad has happened. You are saying people who look at this feud in a positive light are just proclaiming "this could end up well", while your apparent gripe with this is that HHH and Nash will end up sapping Punk's heat.

In the last few weeks we have seen Punk have a meteoric rise to the top, fight some excellent matches and cut some excellent promos. I have found it at least on par with the stuff Cena and the Rock were doing at the start of the year, and I am a HUGE Rock fan. For what we have seen (without speculating into the future), it has been brilliant. It also seems to have given Cena a new lease of life (he's been much improved through the whole thing), and in case you haven't noticed, Cena has been putting Punk over (his line about how Cena and Punk gave everything to return some credibility to the title and then Del Rio cheapened it all).

So I think it that up until now it is an exciting, edgy storyline that rivals some of the stuff of the Attitude era that I grew up watching and that made me fall in love with wrestling. WWE could still mess it up from here, but I don't see the point in building someone up just so HHH can bury him.

HHH won't bury Punk. Ironically I think Paul Levesque DOES know what is good for business, and giving Punk a storyline where he goes up against the Board is the biggest push anyone could get, they wouldn't pick just anyone to do that. I don't get it when people want HHH and Nash to put Punk 'over', because Punk is already massively over, and he's beaten Cena at two PPVs in a row!

imo the vast majority of people including myself believe that this storyline has legs and has developed into something that has the potential to be one of the most interesting plots for a long time. If you imagine what could have happened at SS instead of what did happen it puts it into prospective:

Cena clean win over Punk... superman wins again and the champ is here!

Davis you seam to be complaining for the sake of complaining which sums up the current general mood of the IWC (from what i have read recently) or at least the 606 community. Your article is obsessed with punk being buried or bigfooted however i think its clear that by putting punk with with the likes of HHH, Nash, Steph, Vince and Laurenaitis they have big plans for him and how this moves forward.

Don't get me wrong i enjoyed reading your article and it is well written however after reading your comments about naivety i didn't really appreciate it, i don't think implying that others are naive just because they don't agree with your view point is a way to get your argument over. Its obvious that you rate punk and don't want his heat squashed but imo this can only end well for the cult of personality.