Ireland vs France, 20th August, AVIVA Stadium

First topic message reminder :

Marc Lievremont has named his side to face Ireland on Saturday, making 13 changes from the team that won in Bordeaux. Meanwhile, Declan Kidney has brought back several experienced players including O'Connell, David Wallace, Heaslip, O'Driscoll and D'Arcy as Ireland's preparations step up a gear. Special mention for Felix Jones, making his first start for Ireland, who looks well positioned to be our World Cup bolter should he grasp this massive opportunity.

The game will be held in the AVIVA Stadium on Saturday the 20th August, Kick-off is at 5pm.

IRELAND Team and Replacements

15 - Felix Jones (Shannon/ Munster)
14 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) Captain
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin/Munster)

1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
7 - David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:
16 - Jerry Flannery (Shannon/ Munster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
19 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/ Leinster)

FRANCE Team & Replacements:

15 - Cédric Heymans (Toulouse)
14 - Maxime Médard (Toulouse)
13 - Aurélien Rougerie (Clermont Auvergne)
12 - Fabrice Estebanez (Brive)
11 - Alexis Palisson (Toulon)
10 - David Skrela (Toulouse)
9 - Morgan Parra (Clermont Auvergne)

1 - Jean-Baptiste Poux (Toulouse)
2 - Dimitri Szarzewski (Stade Francais)
3 - Nicolas Mas (Perpignan)
4 - Pascal Papé (Stade Francais)
5 - Lionel Nallet (Racing Metro 92) (capt)
6 - Fulgence Ouedraogo (Montpellier)
7 - Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
8 - Julien Bonnaire (Clermont Auvergne)

Replacements:

16 - Guilhem Guirado (Perpignan)
17 - Fabien Barcella (Biarritz Olympique)
18 - Julien Pierre (Clermont Auvergne)
19 - Raphaël Lakafia (Biarritz Olympique)
20 - Dimitri Yachvili (Biarritz Olympique)
21 - Francois Trinh-Duc (Montpellier)
22 - Vincent Clerc (Toulouse)

Maybe so but we arent going use Ross and Healy in both of those games

Artful_Dodger wrote:
O'Leary isn't really a scrum half at all for me, I think he's a great athlete but in the wrong position, similar situation to Mike Phillips, why anybody thinks that guys who are 6'2 and cant pass anything close to the quality of most 9's make good scrumhalfs I don't understand.

O'Leary and Phillips are wannabe flankers. They relish the confrontation and physical contact too much and don't have the brains or skills to perform their basic role which is to distribute the ball away from the contact area and when necessary take the descision making away from the 10.

Players like that are OK if you want to play 10 man rugby but if you want your backs to actually be able to create something with the ball in hand then playing a 9 like that is the last thing you want.

I agree that Sexton could be the key man against Australia. If he plays like he did in the HEC final he is capable of outplaying the flaky Cooper. Play Reddan to get the best out of Sexton that's what I say.

The Australia game is the biggest match of these players lives. I expect the team to be low key in what they're saying in the build up to that match, acknowledging Australia are favourites. I expect POC and BOD to have the team psyched up to the max in the dressing room and I expect them to play above themselves in that game. Whether that will be enough to beat a superior team, I'm not sure.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Russia and the US?

I would fancy their props to do Buckley in the scrum, to be honest.

Russia maybe, doubt the usa are that strong.

D24tress wrote:I think people needed to calm down about murray he is being built up as the next big thing
It will be the same people jumping on him the day he has a bad game.
Let him come along naturally,
He has played a handful of magners league games calling him our best scrum half and throwing him in starting against italy or the ozzies would be madness and if he had a bad game it could be detremental to his confidence, if he goes it should be for the experience and gearing him towards a 6 nations, lets see if he can do it for munster in the heineken cup first before calling him the messiah

That says more about how poor our current options are than how good he is. But to be fair to him he has made the step up to every level he has played at so far and doesn't buckle under pressure. France in the south of france is one of the hardest places to play and he looked confident despite it only being his first cap.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

valjester wrote:
If buckley doesn't go then hayes does and its still 4 props.

Arguably, You would need 5 as Hayes doesn't cover both sides. Makes Tom Court very valuable. If you took Hayes instead of Buckley, you would have 3 Props only capable of playing on one side.

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

valjester wrote:

D24tress wrote:I think people needed to calm down about murray he is being built up as the next big thing
It will be the same people jumping on him the day he has a bad game.
Let him come along naturally,
He has played a handful of magners league games calling him our best scrum half and throwing him in starting against italy or the ozzies would be madness and if he had a bad game it could be detremental to his confidence, if he goes it should be for the experience and gearing him towards a 6 nations, lets see if he can do it for munster in the heineken cup first before calling him the messiah

That says more about how poor our current options are than how good he is. But to be fair to him he has made the step up to every level he has played at so far and doesn't buckle under pressure. France in the south of france is one of the hardest places to play and he looked confident despite it only being his first cap.

yeah it says alot about our scrum half options, i just think this is his first year and he hasnt made a mistake yet, but making mistakes and recovering is what a great player is all about and i just dont think that a world cup is the best place to give a fella his big shot like that, its a bigger stage and a bigger fall. I dont doubt his talent and think that by the world cup he could be great, but i remember earls with the lions his confidence was shook and when he got back it took him a while at munster to get really firing again and that was a testiment to him

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

valjester wrote:
If buckley doesn't go then hayes does and its still 4 props.

Arguably, You would need 5 as Hayes doesn't cover both sides. Makes Tom Court very valuable. If you took Hayes instead of Buckley, you would have 3 Props only capable of playing on one side.

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

Is one not the opposite of the other. (Kind of.....In this case)

D24tress wrote:

valjester wrote:

D24tress wrote:I think people needed to calm down about murray he is being built up as the next big thing
It will be the same people jumping on him the day he has a bad game.
Let him come along naturally,
He has played a handful of magners league games calling him our best scrum half and throwing him in starting against italy or the ozzies would be madness and if he had a bad game it could be detremental to his confidence, if he goes it should be for the experience and gearing him towards a 6 nations, lets see if he can do it for munster in the heineken cup first before calling him the messiah

That says more about how poor our current options are than how good he is. But to be fair to him he has made the step up to every level he has played at so far and doesn't buckle under pressure. France in the south of france is one of the hardest places to play and he looked confident despite it only being his first cap.

yeah it says alot about our scrum half options, i just think this is his first year and he hasnt made a mistake yet, but making mistakes and recovering is what a great player is all about and i just dont think that a world cup is the best place to give a fella his big shot like that, its a bigger stage and a bigger fall. I dont doubt his talent and think that by the world cup he could be great, but i remember earls with the lions his confidence was shook and when he got back it took him a while at munster to get really firing again and that was a testiment to him

He's a different type of person to earls though. Earls never feels like he deserves to be where he is and doesn't realise how talented he is. Murray seems to be more confident and better able to deal with the pressure. I don't think earls really had a lions hangover, he was happy to be back playing for munster where he is comfortable and did very well that season up until after the six nations when he only played three more games for munster due to injury.

I feel the key to beating australia is a fully fit and firing ferris. The way you put pressure on an outhalf is true your backrow and as good a player as sob is going forward I think I would just about prefer to be tackled by him than be killed by ferris.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

I agree 100% Geoff. The only question is whether or not both Buckley and Hayes will go. I'd say Hayes is nailed on as 2nd choice TH. Court is nailed on too but Buckley will only get in if we go with 5 props.

Heres a thought. Who plays against Italy? I would say we need Mike Ross to play against Italy more than Australia.

roddersm wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

I agree 100% Geoff. The only question is whether or not both Buckley and Hayes will go. I'd say Hayes is nailed on as 2nd choice TH. Court is nailed on too but Buckley will only get in if we go with 5 props.

Heres a thought. Who plays against Italy? I would say we need Mike Ross to play against Italy more than Australia.

Why not just play Ross in both?

Exactly Munsty.

MBTGOG wrote:
Why not just play Ross in both?

Well we could but lets face it Ross is not the fittest cat in town and we'll need him firing on all cylindars for the QF, whoever we may face.

Ross is absolutely vital but we can't play him in 80min of every game if we are serious about reaching the latter stages so we will need to rotate.

So the question is which games do you risk Hayes and/or Court in?

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:
Why not just play Ross in both?

Well we could but lets face it Ross is not the fittest cat in town and we'll need him firing on all cylindars for the QF, whoever we may face.

Ross is absolutely vital but we can't play him in 80min of every game if we are serious about reaching the latter stages so we will need to rotate.

So the question is which games do you risk Hayes and/or Court in?

We need to beat Italy or we won't be in a quarter final.

I just think his skill set is much much better than that of our other 9's

A fully fit Ferris would be nice. I loved watching SOB for Leinster this year, but I'd prefer to see Ferris start against Australia. Unfortunately he hasn't played a match all year. I can't see how he's gonna be up to speed in time.

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:
Why not just play Ross in both?

Well we could but lets face it Ross is not the fittest cat in town and we'll need him firing on all cylindars for the QF, whoever we may face.

Ross is absolutely vital but we can't play him in 80min of every game if we are serious about reaching the latter stages so we will need to rotate.

So the question is which games do you risk Hayes and/or Court in?

The USA or Russia games?

Jennifer sorry misread your post. Having reread I am in full agreement

valjester wrote:
We need to beat Italy or we won't be in a quarter final.

Thats exactly my point Ross is vital for the Italy game, even more so than the Australia game.

Didn't realise the Russia game was sandwiched in between so the panic is over....

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

valjester wrote:
If buckley doesn't go then hayes does and its still 4 props.

Arguably, You would need 5 as Hayes doesn't cover both sides. Makes Tom Court very valuable. If you took Hayes instead of Buckley, you would have 3 Props only capable of playing on one side.

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

Court is vulnerable because if Buckley can cover loosehead against Connacht, Kidney can keep the Hayes & Horan partnership together to play against the USA & Russia. Both Horan & Hayes got about 20 mins together against Scotland.

But how are we going to know if Buckley can cover LH? If he gets the better of Ah You he's only managed to get the better of Jamie Hagans youg and inexperienced understudy from last year.

I agree with Greybeard.

To an extent this is anothing match. There are only a certain number of players who could make the RWC in the ireland select XV and they won't be given as much credit for what they do in this game (rightly so) because it's against Connacht and not an international team

Only just seen the teams - fascinating selections on both sides.

Looks like Kidney is going pretty much full strength for this one, with only a couple of exceptions (Felix Jones is getting a great opportunity here with pretty much the first choice backline around him). Big game for the Irish front row. One area where Lievremont seems to be picking the right players, although obviously Domingo and Servat are still missing (it really is some depth they have there).

As for the France team, pretty much as you'd expect from Lievremont - another shuffled deck with entirely new combinations being tested pretty much throughout the side (front row excepted). I do wonder what Mermoz, Trialle and Jauzion all make of Estebenez's selection at 12, or whether Nyanga feels that his strong finish to the season could possibly have rendered him ahead of Lakafia in the pecking order. Still, the French back row is good, and Picamoles has merited attention there for some time and deserves this chance.

Really hard to call this one. I do think Mas will give Healy a really hard time, and if France can bring Medard and Heymans into the game regularly, then Jones will be tested. However, the Irish pack is at full strength, Sexton is full of confidence and I think Ireland are better in the centres.

I think Ireland by 10.

Crazy idea but I think if we played Ferris, Wallace and Heaslip 6,7 & 8 and switched OBrien to first centre he would probably do better there than any 1st centre that has started for Ireland this year.

There is of course as much chance as Ian Humphrys asked to play prop but it shows how bad our back line has been performing.

I think it's a good game to have as it gives game time for the 15 who may have to step in in case of injury, and gives a chance to those still in with a shout of the plane on merit.

Dekko said it in the team announcement. He wants 30 + 14 guys ready to step in.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think it's a good game to have as it gives game time for the 15 who may have to step in in case of injury, and gives a chance to those still in with a shout of the plane on merit.

Dekko said it in the team announcement. He wants 30 + 14 guys ready to step in.

But the likes of Keatley, Cave, Whitten, Joan Murphy etc could just as easily get game time with their provinces. As could players who will go, such as Cronin and Cullen. If it's about game time rather than getting used to the game plan, then there's no need for this match when the provinces also have matches coming up.

Ireland team v France: F Jones; A Trimble, B O'Driscoll, G D'Arcy, K Earls; J Sexton, T O'Leary; C Healy, R Best, M Ross; D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell; S O'Brien, D Wallace, J Heaslip.

Replacements: J Flannery, T Court, M McCarthy, S Ferris, E Reddan, R O'Gara, L Fitzgerald.

Ireland Select XV team v Connacht: G Murphy; J Murphy, D Cave, I Keatley, F McFadden; P Wallace, I Boss; T Buckley, S Cronin, J Hayes; M O'Driscoll, L Cullen; K McLaughlin, S Jennings, D Leamy.

Replacements: D Varley, M Horan, D Ryan, N Ronan, C Murray, D Hurley, I Whitten.


The teams as per the BBC website.

Sebastien Tillous-Borde, but he can't kick goals so won't be picked.
And julien dupuy.

Tillous-Borde has signed for Toulon now hasn't he? Dupuy's form for Stade was never quite what he managed at Tigers though he does seem instrumental to the way they play.

Do full caps get given out at the Connacht game?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Do full caps get given out at the Connacht game?

No you have to be playing another representitive team

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

valjester wrote:
If buckley doesn't go then hayes does and its still 4 props.

Arguably, You would need 5 as Hayes doesn't cover both sides. Makes Tom Court very valuable. If you took Hayes instead of Buckley, you would have 3 Props only capable of playing on one side.

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

Court is vulnerable because if Buckley can cover loosehead against Connacht, Kidney can keep the Hayes & Horan partnership together to play against the USA & Russia. Both Horan & Hayes got about 20 mins together against Scotland.

If Buckley is our cover for LH we might as well give up now. I think Horan will only go if we take 5 props. My guess is it could be a a straight decision between Buckley and Fitzgerald or Hayes and Horan.

I would not be surprised if all of the names on the teamsheet for France will be going to which can be added Bowe, Cronin and Kearney. We are probably down to the last few places.

greybeard wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think it's a good game to have as it gives game time for the 15 who may have to step in in case of injury, and gives a chance to those still in with a shout of the plane on merit.

Dekko said it in the team announcement. He wants 30 + 14 guys ready to step in.

But the likes of Keatley, Cave, Whitten, Joan Murphy etc could just as easily get game time with their provinces. As could players who will go, such as Cronin and Cullen. If it's about game time rather than getting used to the game plan, then there's no need for this match when the provinces also have matches coming up.

All that would mean is that Straus & whoever would have to share their gametime with players who are not going to be around for the start of the season. This way, every Irish player will be getting to play this weekend somewhere.

greybeard wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think it's a good game to have as it gives game time for the 15 who may have to step in in case of injury, and gives a chance to those still in with a shout of the plane on merit.

Dekko said it in the team announcement. He wants 30 + 14 guys ready to step in.

But the likes of Keatley, Cave, Whitten, Joan Murphy etc could just as easily get game time with their provinces. As could players who will go, such as Cronin and Cullen. If it's about game time rather than getting used to the game plan, then there's no need for this match when the provinces also have matches coming up.

It is about making decisions Murray or Boss
Hayes or Buckley
Cullen or MOD

To do that you need to see the players against the same opposition and to be in the same situation.
Tough re other players - this close to the WC country must come first.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

valjester wrote:
If buckley doesn't go then hayes does and its still 4 props.

Arguably, You would need 5 as Hayes doesn't cover both sides. Makes Tom Court very valuable. If you took Hayes instead of Buckley, you would have 3 Props only capable of playing on one side.

Why is Court vulnerable - he is Healy' backup and will go as such. It is Ross' backup that is in doubt and whether or not we take a 5th prop i.e 2 from Buckley, Hayes and Horan. The fact Horan is not starting against Connacht suggests he is out of contention.

Court is vulnerable because if Buckley can cover loosehead against Connacht, Kidney can keep the Hayes & Horan partnership together to play against the USA & Russia. Both Horan & Hayes got about 20 mins together against Scotland.

If Buckley is our cover for LH we might as well give up now. I think Horan will only go if we take 5 props. My guess is it could be a a straight decision between Buckley and Fitzgerald or Hayes and Horan.

I would not be surprised if all of the names on the teamsheet for France will be going to which can be added Bowe, Cronin and Kearney. We are probably down to the last few places.

Well, if Court is our cover for TH, we're also stuck. And it is far more likely that Mike Ross won't last the 80.

I see from Planet Rugby site Lieveremont has made 13 changes to his squad/side.
IF he gets a good win again on Saturday.you have to think are right back
in the RWC reckoning,But where does it leave Ireland.
IF they lose badly then it`s back to square one.

Regarding buckley and hayes
We can go with only for props it is risky but until italy we should not get mauled by any scrum, usa and russia are not the georgians or anywhere close

We should take two lossies healy and court and two tighties
ross and hayes, court on bench to cover both.

Also i know this is not in the spirit of the game but we are going with old rules guys that means uncontested scrums, think we are two honest for this, but with only one prop on the bench

geoff998rugby wrote:

greybeard wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think it's a good game to have as it gives game time for the 15 who may have to step in in case of injury, and gives a chance to those still in with a shout of the plane on merit.

Dekko said it in the team announcement. He wants 30 + 14 guys ready to step in.

But the likes of Keatley, Cave, Whitten, Joan Murphy etc could just as easily get game time with their provinces. As could players who will go, such as Cronin and Cullen. If it's about game time rather than getting used to the game plan, then there's no need for this match when the provinces also have matches coming up.

It is about making decisions Murray or Boss
Hayes or Buckley
Cullen or MOD

To do that you need to see the players against the same opposition and to be in the same situation.
Tough re other players - this close to the WC country must come first.

I'd say the fact that Boss & Wallace have played together before might have something to do with it. Putting Wallace & Murray together might not look too pretty bearing in mind they have never played together before and Murray has really only played SH to ROG.
It can't be Hayes or Buckley as Hayes does not play LH.
I don't think MOD is in the reckoning.

Sin é wrote:Court is vulnerable because if Buckley can cover loosehead against Connacht, Kidney can keep the Hayes & Horan partnership together to play against the USA & Russia. Both Horan & Hayes got about 20 mins together against Scotland.

Yes but your missing the point that Court is a better losehead than Buckley and probably a better tight head than Buckley too.

There's a reason Court is on the bench against France and Buckley is playing against Connacht and that is that if there is an injury to either starting prop Kidney would rather bring on Court than Buckley.

Court is as good at TH as Buckley ie not very. Hayes end of season form would bring him into contention but Court is the only one who can remotely claim to cover both sides and if Healy gets crocked with Buckley or Hayes on the bench then its facepalm time.

emack2 wrote:I see from Planet Rugby site Lieveremont has made 13 changes to his squad/side.
IF he gets a good win again on Saturday.you have to think are right back
in the RWC reckoning,But where does it leave Ireland.
IF they lose badly then it`s back to square one.

Indeed Ireland really need to start winning games and not just against England.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Court is vulnerable because if Buckley can cover loosehead against Connacht, Kidney can keep the Hayes & Horan partnership together to play against the USA & Russia. Both Horan & Hayes got about 20 mins together against Scotland.

Yes but your missing the point that Court is a better losehead than Buckley and probably a better tight head than Buckley too.

There's a reason Court is on the bench against France and Buckley is playing against Connacht and that is that if there is an injury to either starting prop Kidney would rather bring on Court than Buckley.

The same reason why Buckley was on the bench away to France last week? Lets see how Court does this week with similar opposition? Remember, it was Ross who was taken off and Healy brought back on.

Court has been every bit as poor at TH as Buckley has been at LH.

Standulstermen wrote:Court is as good at TH as Buckley ie not very. Hayes end of season form would bring him into contention but Court is the only one who can remotely claim to cover both sides and if Healy gets crocked with Buckley or Hayes on the bench then its facepalm time.

And now is the time they need to know if they are going to have to put two props on the bench - (other sub will have to cover backrow & 2nd row).

leinsterbaby wrote:

emack2 wrote:I see from Planet Rugby site Lieveremont has made 13 changes to his squad/side.
IF he gets a good win again on Saturday.you have to think are right back
in the RWC reckoning,But where does it leave Ireland.
IF they lose badly then it`s back to square one.

Indeed Ireland really need to start winning games and not just against England.

All true, however I personally would rather lose the match than see one of our three absolute key players (Ross, POC, BOD) get injured ahead of RWC. The last 2 games and indeed the last yr or so has taught us that we have no chance without these 3 in our starting 15 for the big games. Is that too negative on my part?

Well, well. Just catching up. Like the look of the team! Very good.

And not at all surprised to see when there are 30 players taking the pitch on Saturday we seem to be arguing the merits of a prop who can cover both sides against a prop who can cover neither

Buckley will go as fourth prop. It looks to me as though Kidney is giving him more time at LH to make him a better bench option. Hayes will be fifth choice but there is no reason for Ireland to take five props, so both him and Marcus will be on injury standby.

What I read into McCarthy being on the Ireland bench is that Ferris is still dodgy! Kidney will want to ease 1F in but is maybe not sure if he can even last a quarter. Kidney has seen enough of Ryan and will have his mind made up about him so the locks for Connacht is maybe just confirming his choice of Cullen over MOD who are both middle jumpers.

Keatley had to come in to the setup for some time (albeit at the 11th hour). DK was probably hoping that Ian Humphreys would be fit by now but since he isn't and if there is a RWC ending injury to JS or ROG, he has to have someone to call up. Wallace and he both need time at 10.

Boss looks like third on the plane with Murray 1st standby.

Nonsense Sin. Im not saying our options are great but Buckley is in more danger of losing his squad place to hayes than challenging court

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Court is as good at TH as Buckley ie not very. Hayes end of season form would bring him into contention but Court is the only one who can remotely claim to cover both sides and if Healy gets crocked with Buckley or Hayes on the bench then its facepalm time.

And now is the time they need to know if they are going to have to put two props on the bench - (other sub will have to cover backrow & 2nd row).

Why need to put two on sin, go the old wasps route

We have an infuriating habit of always going behind on the scoreboard early against the French. Which is not good against a confidence team. I really hope we can get a try or a couple of penalties early in the game.

The French will score at least a try. They always do against us. We always need to score heavily to beat them. I'd be worried that O'Leary will blunt our attack and we'll lose a 3rd game in a row. I hope he plays well.

D24tress wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Court is as good at TH as Buckley ie not very. Hayes end of season form would bring him into contention but Court is the only one who can remotely claim to cover both sides and if Healy gets crocked with Buckley or Hayes on the bench then its facepalm time.

And now is the time they need to know if they are going to have to put two props on the bench - (other sub will have to cover backrow & 2nd row).

Why need to put two on sin, go the old wasps route

Because club games in the NH have 23 man squads and it is now rare up here that the front row will play more than 60 minutes every game. They still have 22 man squads in Super Rugby so they always have a prop who covers both sides and the front row are used to 80 mins of rugby every game. Our props are just not used to playing 80 mins or a prop getting regular game time covering both sides - thats why it is worth considering having 2 props on the bench. Pity we don't have a prop who can also play hooker.

Feckless Rogue wrote:We have an infuriating habit of always going behind on the scoreboard early against the French. Which is not good against a confidence team. I really hope we can get a try or a couple of penalties early in the game.

The French will score at least a try. They always do against us. We always need to score heavily to beat them. I'd be worried that O'Leary will blunt our attack and we'll lose a 3rd game in a row. I hope he plays well.

This is a genuine worry. O'Leary was most successful when we won the slam, playing a limited game - but if we are serious about having an expansive A game, then he isn't the man no matter how many times people say 'plays like an extra back row around the breakdown.

Yeah but once we use up our spare prop it goes uncontested, not the best thing ever but thems the rules.

we could have SOB ferris wally and heislip on the pitch
Its not a nice part of the game but other teams have done it in the past

Standulstermen wrote:Nonsense Sin. Im not saying our options are great but Buckley is in more danger of losing his squad place to hayes than challenging court

Spot on.

Marks out of 10
LH TH
Ross 5 8
Healy 8 3
Court 7 4
Buckley 2 4
Hayes 2 6
Horan 6 2

Which ever way you look at it it ain't pretty but the fact that other than Ross Court is the only one who is even vaguely passable on both sides means he has to go.

For me a 6 is the minimuim standard for an International prop and anything below 4 isn't worth a bean.

On that basis we have 2 TH - Ross and Hayes and 3 LH Healy, Court and Horan
Healy and Horan as TH and Buckley and Hayes as LH are not worth of any consideration