What Ireland need to learn from the Connacht game

First topic message reminder :

Starting from the front and heading back I thought it apt to go and see what bits of information we can/need to learn from the game in Donnybrook tonight as far as I am aware is not being televised.

We need to see if Buckley can play LH and play well.
He has been very disappointing over the first two tests. Very poor scrimmaging and has not been in the loose what we know he can be. Seems to be in a shoot out with Hayes for the fourth prop spot and I think it may just come down to this final game to decide it. Buckley can be exceptional in the loose as seen down south last summer and can scrum as seen in the Autumn against Argentina but can he do it regularly?

We need Cullen to up his performance and see what else Ryan can do.
McCarthy on the bench on Saturday is telling. DK obviously believes that McCarthy and Ryan are quite close standard wise. Ryan has had two tests and now McCarthy will, again it seems like a straight shoot out between the two. Cullen also needs to prove he can up his game, he has been quite ineffective over the last two tests and needs to up the anti quite a bit.

We need to learn whether Jennings can even be considered.
Jennings has played exceptionally well for Leinster this year but injury has ruled him out of all the warm ups thus far. With Ferris back and firing (well fit enough to put on the bench) and Leamy doing quite well so far, we need to see if Jennings can produce something no other backrower can. He is unique in style but can he compete at the highest level (the Connacht game not being the highest level) but again appears a shoot out between Leamy and Jennings with Leamy ahead.

We need to know who will be our 3rd scrumhalf.
Boss vs Murray with Stringer seemingly left out in the cold. Boss has had a good season with Leinster providing a quicker service than before but also a fiery physicality. Murray has had a great run in to the close of the season. Seems to have all the skills needed, appears cool headed and unphased by the big occasions. Best passer of the 4 scrumhalves remaining, good tackler, best boxkicker, good decision making.

We need to double check Wallace can play 10.
It’s been a while since Wallace wore the 10 jersey in green. He won’t be tested too much but we need to see he can do it. Even with Keatley and Mcfadden in the team I’d like Wallace to kick the goals. Needs to show us that he can attack the line hard and can also control the game both in equal measure and where necessary.

We need to see McFadden and Murphy do something special.
As such neither seem to be going to the RWC, as such neither deserve too. They need to show us something that would make DK not want to bring Fitzgerald or Jones. These two seem to be the desperadoes of the group.

My wishlist:
Murray to have a stormer and play the whole second half.
Cullen to up his game.
Jennings to put pressure on Leamy.
Wallace to show us he can control a game.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Right question- If both Leamy and Jennings make the WC Squad, what would be your backrowers for the OZ game -i.e matchday 22??? (Assuming everyone is fit)

06 Ferris
07 Wallace
08 Heaslip

19 O'Brien

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

He wasn't dire, he was the top try scorer in the league while playing for ulster in one of his early season, but he was nowhere near as good as he is now. I don't see what relevance that has to this conversation.

In my view Jennings deserves to go. People saying he offers nothing are being unfair. He is a great fetcher on the ground and a great link player at 7 - like Martin Williams, he always has an eye for an offload and runs great support lines. Thats why he suits Leinster so well.
Munster & Ireland both tend to look for contact more so maybe Leamy & McCarthy are better in that regard due to his physicality.
It all comes down to what game the mgmt want to play. Horses for courses and all that.

red_stag wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Right question- If both Leamy and Jennings make the WC Squad, what would be your backrowers for the OZ game -i.e matchday 22??? (Assuming everyone is fit)

06 Ferris
07 Wallace
08 Heaslip

19 O'Brien

Stag - thats a terrible conundrum alright. How can we leave out the European player of the yr??
I suspect Ferris & Wallace will never be match fit at the same time so SOB will always get in somewhere. Fascinating to see what Kidney does if all 4 are ever fully fit and raring to go at the same time.

valjester wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

He wasn't dire, he was the top try scorer in the league while playing for ulster in one of his early season, but he was nowhere near as good as he is now. I don't see what relevance that has to this conversation.

So Bowe was excellent at provincial level but failed to impress at international level, now he's a first team player. We were talking about Jennings and how he has a good record at provincial level but has never impressed when he's been given his (as you said yourself) limited opportunities. And you don't see what relevance this has to our conversation?

red_stag wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:

red_stag wrote:I couldn't care if he goes or not really.

I couldnt care that you dont care.

Didn't mean it to sound like that. Just saying that the realisitcally its O'Brien, Wallace, Heaslip and Ferris who are comfortably our best options.

Aha, in which case you should care that he goes and that way Leinster don't benefit from his participating in the opening weeks of the Pro12!

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:In my view Jennings deserves to go. People saying he offers nothing are being unfair. He is a great fetcher on the ground and a great link player at 7 - like Martin Williams, he always has an eye for an offload and runs great support lines. Thats why he suits Leinster so well.
Munster & Ireland both tend to look for contact more so maybe Leamy & McCarthy are better in that regard due to his physicality.
It all comes down to what game the mgmt want to play. Horses for courses and all that.

Jennings is not much of a fetcher, what he excels at is being in first and securing quick ball for his own team. The way the game has changed it is much harder to secure a turnover using your hands and it is much easier to win a turnover through counter rucking. As for linking, heaslip is much better at that, he has superb hands and for Ireland acts as the link, and ferris can as well. Ireland have other players who look for space who are much better players overall than him.

If everyone is fit I can see a backrow of ferris-wallace-heaslip starting. If ferris is fit for australia, then he has to start imo.

I think you are /maybe right Stag, of course it all depends on the last two games to see who is in Pole position for the 6 jersey.

So depending on displays it may well be Ferris or Sob who misses out - so who makes the bench from
Ferris or SOB then Leamy and Jennings??

I think Sob is likely to sub (barring injuries) come the Australia game as Wallace is likey to be first choice 7- and Ferris is a monster at ruck time and Sob covers the 3 back row positions.

Mickado wrote:

valjester wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

He wasn't dire, he was the top try scorer in the league while playing for ulster in one of his early season, but he was nowhere near as good as he is now. I don't see what relevance that has to this conversation.

So Bowe was excellent at provincial level but failed to impress at international level, now he's a first team player. We were talking about Jennings and how he has a good record at provincial level but has never impressed when he's been given his (as you said yourself) limited opportunities. And you don't see what relevance this has to our conversation?

Once again you are not comparing like with like. Jennings is 30, bowe was a young player who played decently at international level but didn't do enough to overtake shane horgan at the height of his powers, there is no shame in that. To say he was dire is completely untrue.

I hope that O'Brien has the maturity to read a game from the bench. The guy can play 6, 7 and 8 but whether he can read a game enough to know his role when comiing off the bench is hard to say.

Feagh McHugh wrote:I think you are /maybe right Stag, of course it all depends on the last two games to see who is in Pole position for the 6 jersey.

So depending on displays it may well be Ferris or Sob who misses out - so who makes the bench from
Ferris or SOB then Leamy and Jennings??

I think Sob is likely to sub (barring injuries) come the Australia game as Wallace is likey to be first choice 7- and Ferris is a monster at ruck time and Sob covers the 3 back row positions.

If everyone is fit ferris and heaslip start. Then it is between wallace and sob for the last position. Ferris and heaslip, and wallace tbf, have proved they can cope with the southern hemisphere teams. Wallace has in the past but he is getting on. Sob has shown he probably can but may lose out to wallace's experience and the fact that sob would be a sensational option to bring on at 50minutes when the other team are tiring. If everyone is fit, it will be our strongest area.

I would rate ryan and ruddock at the same level as leamy and jennings is a step up from them.
Leamy has played just as well as P.wallace
average without making any mistakes as not to look bad.
Mcfadden or anyone else hasnt outperformed wallace so he goes.
However one big game out of jennings against france and he should defo go. SOB would be our second choice 8 anyway.

Reading a game from the bench is something a player of the caliber of EPoY should be able to do.
Anyway he will have coaches in his ear setting out what they want front him should the situation arise where he is coming on as a sub.

But we still have one unknown combination and that is SOB Ferris and Jamie......

valjester wrote:

Mickado wrote:

valjester wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

He wasn't dire, he was the top try scorer in the league while playing for ulster in one of his early season, but he was nowhere near as good as he is now. I don't see what relevance that has to this conversation.

So Bowe was excellent at provincial level but failed to impress at international level, now he's a first team player. We were talking about Jennings and how he has a good record at provincial level but has never impressed when he's been given his (as you said yourself) limited opportunities. And you don't see what relevance this has to our conversation?

Once again you are not comparing like with like. Jennings is 30, bowe was a young player who played decently at international level but didn't do enough to overtake shane horgan at the height of his powers, there is no shame in that. To say he was dire is completely untrue.

Bowe started his career on the left wing and played a few times when Denis Hickie was injured, for the most part he was outshone by Andrew Trimble. I respect Tommy Bowe hugley and i know how important a player he is to us, but you can't make rules for him and not apply them to the rest of the squad. Just because a player is 30 doesn't mean they're thrown on the slag heap. Wallace is 35 and we all agree he should be in the World Cup squad.

This is the pack that Jennings last started with:

1 P Cian Healy
2 H Sean Cronin
3 P Tony Buckley
4 L Donncha O'Callaghan
5 L Mick O'Driscoll
6 F Niall Ronan
7 F Shane Jennings
8 N8 Chris Henry

Do you think it's fair to judge a player on his performace in THAT pack? Everyone in that pack bar Chris Henry and Shane Jennings have gotten at least one cap since that match. Hardly giving Jennings a fair crack at the whip is it?

D24tress wrote:I would rate ryan and ruddock at the same level as leamy and jennings is a step up from them.
Leamy has played just as well as P.wallace
average without making any mistakes as not to look bad.
Mcfadden or anyone else hasnt outperformed wallace so he goes.
However one big game out of jennings against france and he should defo go. SOB would be our second choice 8 anyway.

Leamy was probably our best player against scotland and along with sob was our only source of go forward ball against france in the first half.

McHugh,

I'd say forget European Player of the Year award. He got that starting matches and within another team.

Its a sign that he is a great player but not all that relevant from here on.

RE: SOB, Ferris, Heaslip - not convinced any of them can play 7 well enough. O'Brien is good there. He got man of match once in HEC at 7 but he's had quite a few average games there. Wallace is a better 7.

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

No he wasn't. He carried the can for an awful match in Paris where ROG and Murphy were far worse but as the new kid on the block he was the only one droped.

Jennings is our best natural 7 and should go

I agree Wallace is better at 7 than SOB -and in fairness he would want to be too considering he has played there all his career while Sean has been moved around a bit-

Your reservations about how the 3 would preform are that ....just reservations. You may indeed be 100% correct, but only one way to really find out..... and I like many others look forward to seeing that!

[quote="geoff998rugby"][quote="Mickado"]Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.
[/quote]

No he wasn't. He carried the can for an awful match in Paris where ROG and Murphy were far worse but as the new kid on the block he was the only one droped.

Jennings is our best natural 7 and should go [/quote]

I'd have to agree that he should go as 7 cover. He shouldn't start any big games by any means usless wally is injured and even then I'd prefer SOB

Anyway, I suspect we are being a bit Irish in bordering on being pessimistic about having such great backrow strength in depth.
We could be worrying about having Nick Easter as your best No. 8.
What they would give for either heaslip or SOB to start there.

Still reckon injury will make it unlikely Kidney will actually have to pick 3 from the top 4.
Can't wait to get to the Aviva tomor. Whoo !!

Irish Curry wrote:
I'd have to agree that he should go as 7 cover. He shouldn't start any big games by any means usless wally is injured and even then I'd prefer SOB

Seems he will be starting a "big game" tomorrow.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/8298.php

[quote="Jenifer McLadyboy"][quote="Irish Curry"]
I'd have to agree that he should go as 7 cover. He shouldn't start any big games by any means usless wally is injured and even then I'd prefer SOB[/quote]
Seems he will be [b]starting[/b] a "big game" tomorrow.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/8298.php[/quote]

I was refering to the WC in all honestly and I think he was always going to start tomorrow

My friend is now saying that leo is definitely going. I'm not sure if I misheard what he said yesterday or if he got it wrong but he did say he wasn't 100% sure, it also seems that ryan is ahead of mclaughlin for the 30.

valjester wrote:It also seems that ryan is ahead of mclaughlin for the 30.

That's fairly evident, I reckon, but the question remains between Ryan and McCarthy.

Kidney will take Ryan no doubt.

Mickado wrote:

valjester wrote:

MDB wrote:

MMC wrote:

MDB wrote:Met a couple of the Ireland lads out afterwards last night and i think its safe to say McFadden and McLaughlin are not going to the world cup.

Care to elaborate?

Just from talking to the lads, despite trying to come across as positive as possible they didnt seem to rate their chances very highly of going and neither of them really seemed like they were gearing up for a world cup. I could be wrong but if i were a betting man i would put my house on them not making it unless there are injuries.

The one player who i really think should go but unfortunately wont is Jennings. He offers something different to the rest of our backrows and while he has struggled to convert his provincial form to international games i think he would be a great asset in the games against Australia and South africa (assuming we play them in the quarters)

If everyone is fit, he won't make the 22 even if he is fit. Jennings has never really taken his (limited) chances at international level and he is not in the same class as the top 4 backrowers and despite leamy's obvious dip in form due to injuries etc he has performed for Ireland in the past and was good against scotland and france. I don't think jennings brings anything special to the backrow as all our other options are capable of doing what he can do and doing other stuff as well.

Rediculous. Ask yourself this, if Leamy played for Leinster, would he displace Jennings from the team? Not a chance, because Jennings offers something that Leamy doesn't. Now, as to wheather that something is something that Ireland need, that's a different question. But to say Jennings offers nothing nothing unique is just false.

And another thing, if everyone is agreed that Jennings has had very few chances to prove himself, then why is everyone so dissmissive of giving him another one? Tommy Bowe would be on the slag heap if we took that attitude with everyone. Jennings has 2 HC's a premiership and a ML under his belt, lets see what he can do in a green jersey with a proper team around him.

So well put, I couldnt & wouldnt change a word of it. They dont know... That they dont know. Best 7 in Europe - by far. Roll on Saturday. Bring on the French.

Moving away from the back row issue but has anyone noticed that when Reddan is playing it always seems like the pack isn't doing their job protecting him at the breakdown? Yet when the other scrum halves are playing, it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Anyone else notice this?

Yes I have noticed that Munsty. Scrumhalf is going to be an interesting position to watch over next season, especially in Munster.

Pity we don't really have a great international scrum half though. We have about 4 average ones and an inexperienced youngster. I wish Pienaar was Irish.

He gets himself scragged far too often. Really can knock momentum made.

Do you think there is a link between this and quick(er) ball than say eh Tol??

Thinking about it, it's good that he's making an attempt to get clean ball. Problem is though, crabbing when you don't have protection is suicidal.

Reddens problem is not that he is slow when he gets the ball
he just takes his time when he goes in to get the ball

D24tress wrote:Reddens problem is not that he is slow when he gets the ball
he just takes his time when he goes in to get the ball

Disagree. I would say thats O'Learys problem where is Reddan gets it fine but crabs slightly with it leaving him exposed.

MBTGOG wrote:Thinking about it, it's good that he's making an attempt to get clean ball. Problem is though, crabbing when you don't have protection is suicidal.

It depends, I would say that boss, tol and murray are able to get away with crabbing because of their size whereas stringer, and to a lesser degree, Reddan can't. I think its the main reason why we haven't seen stringer in this series of games, the management have come to the conclusion, which I agree with it, that he can't deliver at international level anymore. Its noticeable that his accuracy isn't as good as it used to be and I think his erratic delivery is down to him having to rush his pass because he is under pressure at the ruck.

edit: also link to highlights of connacht match

pleased to see Jennings get a game as it would have been massivley unlucky had he been pulled from the Connacht game and wally then been fit. He has a chance but it still is a small one imo. The first 4 pick themselves (injury aside) and then Leamy seems to be nailed on as the fifth backrower.

Good luck to him though. it will be interesting to see who ferris comes on for

Mickado wrote:
Bowe started his career on the left wing and played a few times when Denis Hickie was injured, for the most part he was outshone by Andrew Trimble. I respect Tommy Bowe hugley and i know how important a player he is to us, but you can't make rules for him and not apply them to the rest of the squad. Just because a player is 30 doesn't mean they're thrown on the slag heap. Wallace is 35 and we all agree he should be in the World Cup squad.

This is the pack that Jennings last started with:

1 P Cian Healy
2 H Sean Cronin
3 P Tony Buckley
4 L Donncha O'Callaghan
5 L Mick O'Driscoll
6 F Niall Ronan
7 F Shane Jennings
8 N8 Chris Henry

Do you think it's fair to judge a player on his performace in THAT pack? Everyone in that pack bar Chris Henry and Shane Jennings have gotten at least one cap since that match. Hardly giving Jennings a fair crack at the whip is it?

Yes that was an incredibly poor pack, but you should still expect jennings to play better than he did. He shouldn't have missed that tackle on cooper, what ever way you look at it. He is obviously not going to be as good in a poor pack but he should still make his tackles and make an impact on the game. Jennings was anonymous in that match besides for that try. Once again with wallace you are bringing up an irrelevant comparison. Wallace has proven himself at international level, and has played well at this level this year. Jennings will come in on saturday and hopefully do a good job but he isn't in the same class of player as the other 4. The comparison with tommy bowe is not valid, there is a difference between a young player being thrown in, on the left wing in a position which isn't where he is most comfortable. Bowe was young and went away and worked on his game and kept improving. Imo he was unfairly scapegoated by eos and no where near as bad as you made out. Jennings, at 30, won't improve much from where he is.

watching those scores from yesterday Cave was looking good. He has a very good awareness of where players are and although these passes look simple we have seen more experienced guys balls them up this summer. He is still Ulsters best 13 for me although if and when Spence can develop that sense of where and when to pass he will be very good

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that. Kidney helped him on his way too. Trimble - to my mind, has always been a far better player than Bowe. He drifted under bad management, but now,he is showing that natural talent again. Great player.

I like the thought of taking an extra backrower truth be told.

Gibson wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that. Kidney helped him on his way too. Trimble - to my mind, has always been a far better player than Bowe. He drifted under bad management, but now,he is showing that natural talent again. Great player.

Dont think anyone would dispute what you are saying Gibbo. As an Ulster fan i would say that he was showing signs of becoming that better player the season before he left though.

Standulstermen wrote:

Gibson wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that. Kidney helped him on his way too. Trimble - to my mind, has always been a far better player than Bowe. He drifted under bad management, but now,he is showing that natural talent again. Great player.

Dont think anyone would dispute what you are saying Gibbo. As an Ulster fan i would say that he was showing signs of becoming that better player the season before he left though.

Stand,
I had my eye on Trimble years back and tbh, he showed more latent talent than Bowe back then.I always believed that Trimble would shine in Green for years to come. Bowe came up on the outside and has since overshadowed him on the International stage. Not any more. Playing for a since failing O's, has actually reversed his initial meteoric rise - ironically. My definites for Ireland's best possible back 3, are Trimble, Kearney + A. N. Other of Fitz, Bowe or Earls. Not popular, but phook it.

In the modern game, a winger should be equally capable on either wing. I've a feeling that Trimble will lose out to either Bowe, Earls or Fitz under Kidney - in the Big ones. Oz and/or Saffers. I'd have them both with Kearney. Earls at 22. Fitz will travel on his rep alone.

Bowe is the complete footballer and he was before he joined the Ospreys - Great vision and anticipation. I think his game has actually suffered playing for the O's. Trimble brings something very different, more one dimensional but a very powerful winger with some similarities to the great Simon Geohegan.

Gibson wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that. Kidney helped him on his way too. Trimble - to my mind, has always been a far better player than Bowe. He drifted under bad management, but now,he is showing that natural talent again. Great player.

Yeah, yeah yeah and he also gained another 5 yards of pace as well!
Sorry, but you know this is nonsense. Perhaps you didn't watch all the games he played for Ulster but he has improved as a player through maturity irrespective of where he plies his trade. He was a good player in a bad team at Ulster but surrounding him by better players didn't suddenly unearth skills he had hitherto not realised he had, however it did give him more credibility with those who couldn't see those skills beforehand. Do you really think the Ospreys would have paid so much for an underperformer with only potential?

In the same year EOS ignored Bowe, he also ignored Heaslip, who didn't change his province/club. Perhaps Heaslip would have been far better than he currently is if he had gone to the Ospreys too? Or perhaps he has matured into the player he has through experience because he always had the skills to start with?

Gibson wrote:Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that.

There speaks a man who just didn't watch Bowe in his last season for Ulster. Team at the bottom of the league, awful midfield (Dewey over Wallace... ffs), awful 10 and he won the IRUPA player of the Year and was one of the top scorers in the league.

Standulstermen wrote:

Gibson wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Bowe was dire for a few years at the beginning of his career. Dire.

Yeah he was dire especially when he was leading CL try scorer

Bowe became the player he is when he moved to Ospreys. They gave him the freedom to grow. Ulster fans really dont like hearing that truth. But everyone else knows that. Kidney helped him on his way too. Trimble - to my mind, has always been a far better player than Bowe. He drifted under bad management, but now,he is showing that natural talent again. Great player.

Dont think anyone would dispute what you are saying Gibbo. As an Ulster fan i would say that he was showing signs of becoming that better player the season before he left though.

Showing? He was the best player in the league and we hardly got any decent attacking ball! Came into the side for the Six Nations and tore Scotland to pieces. Best form of his career.

See. Told ye...

I think you should remember that Gibson isn't the greatest judge of a player. He thinks Jennings is Jesus like!

To call Trimble one-dimensional is a joke. More powerful, faster than Bowe, spatial awareness, defence. All superior. Your move Ruby.