The problem with grannyism and international representation.

Unstable families are not (like free-sex) an invention of the latter half of the twentieth century.

The complexity of blood relationships becomes ever so difficult in some circumstances.

Let me take as an example : Leicester/NZ/poss England player Waldrom.

Due to the the complexity of (probably eternal) interpersonal relationships maybe I shouldn't be surprised that Waldrom didn't realise that his gran was English.

Most of us are confident where our grandparents were born aren't we?...

I dont think so I mean lots of people dont know anything about one of their never mind their granparents.

The main problem I have with it is the number of times this issue gets rehashed and the same tired old arguments trotted out.
If they could just hurry upo and ban people from playing for anyone then we can move on.


But that Australian who plays for Italy qualifying through a grandparent who renounced his Italian citizenship is a bit ridiculous.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The main problem I have with it is the number of times this issue gets rehashed and the same tired old arguments trotted out.
If they could just hurry upo and ban people from playing for anyone then we can move on.


But that Australian who plays for Italy qualifying through a grandparent who renounced his Italian citizenship is a bit ridiculous.

Is exactly the sort of crap that his post is trying to expose.

Mind you if you want to join them you could always establishmentalise project players.

We presume we know where our Grandparents were born. I think all mine were Welsh but I cant be 100% sure on that due to the fact that one great grandfather was a career military man and the other was a millwright who travelled all over the UK.

I know with 100% certainty where my Grandparents were born.
I am pretty certain about my Great-Grandparents as well.

I am as well geoff.

I do find it surprising that Waldrom wasn't.

Mind you the occasional slippage from marital faithfulness is not unknown. I have been tempted but because of opportunity and circumstance I haven't.

And no doubt that applies equally to Portnoyova.

I know were all my grandparents were born, but at least one great-grandparent is an enigma. In fact all my grandparents are from East Belfast.

Portnoy wrote:

Most of us are confident where our grandparents were born aren't we?...

Not even slightly. I couldn't tell you with any certainty where any of my grandparents where born. And I have no idea what the first names of either of my mother's parents were. If your grandparents die when you're young/ before you're born, you simply don't know as much about them.

Which is part the reason why grandparents shouldn't be used to determine eligibility.

But what of those people who might take their grandparent's heritage seriously? Maybe that grandparent was instrumental in their upbringing, in a rugby or wider context. Why should these people now be disadvantaged because some people are abusing the system?

I would have a declaration system. When you sign your first professional contract (or on your 18th birthday, if you sign your first contract as a kid), you declare all the countries you are eligible for. True dual-nationality players can declare themselves for both nations. People like Waldrom who aren't aware that they have an English grandparent wouldn't declare themselves for England (just the nation of their birth), and therefore wouldn't be able to pledge to switch and then find a short-cut.

But I would be loathed to remove the grandparent rule itself, because grandparents can and often do have an impact on how we are brought up.

The problem is you could have four Grandparents all from different part of the world, two parents ,your country of birth, plus the residency ruling that makes eight countries you could possibly be eligible to play for and thats far too many.
In my opinion the rule should be country you were born in or the country your parents are from and I think the residency ruling should be extended to six years.

Then you could have declarations but limit it to say 3 countries. I still think there are probably people out there who's only tie to a country is that a grandparent was born there, but they still see themselves as "of that nation", and therefore the grandparent rule should stay in place for these people. However, we should try and shut down loopholes and ways round it, rather than getting rid of the rule itself.

you know i'll be glad when the rugby kicks off (RWC), perhaps then we won't have to discuss this matter again and again...

Nathan has it been discussed on this site before? I'm not aware of another thread are you sure it was this forum.

Cymroglan wrote:Nathan has it been discussed on this site before? I'm not aware of another thread are you sure it was this forum.

lol, i hoping that was sarcasm!!

Not at all as I said I'm not aware of any thread on this forum discussing grannyism and international representation.
I presume it's a subject you are bored with ? or may have discussed it many times on other forums.
The great thing about sites like is the fact there are many subjects we can chat about and I for one tend not to go on the threads that don't interest me

Portnoy wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The main problem I have with it is the number of times this issue gets rehashed and the same tired old arguments trotted out.
If they could just hurry upo and ban people from playing for anyone then we can move on.


But that Australian who plays for Italy qualifying through a grandparent who renounced his Italian citizenship is a bit ridiculous.

Is exactly the sort of crap that his post is trying to expose.

Mind you if you want to join them you could always establishmentalise project players.

Really? Id assumed you were trying to get someone to mention Shane Howarth ....ooops

Cymroglan wrote:Nathan has it been discussed on this site before? I'm not aware of another thread are you sure it was this forum.

Cymro, yep it's been discussed quite a bit. Sometimes as an article proper, and other times it's been 'debated' in all manner of different threads as the discussion is blindfolded, gagged and taken to a whole different place in the bag of a unmarked van

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:......................If they could just hurry up and ban people from playing for anyone then we can move on.........

Thats a bit extreme - banning the entire sport because you don't like the international qualification laws.

ML wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:......................If they could just hurry up and ban people from playing for anyone then we can move on.........

Thats a bit extreme - banning the entire sport because you don't like the international qualification laws.

I really dont care less about them, its the whining whinging and daily mail letters page internet posts that bore me. All Im sying is that f w just gave up on nationalism and all played for the same team (alfie and jw included) wouldnt the world be a better place , a society based on love and mutual respect. I admitthe games may get a bit dull, so maybe we could let the Welsh have a seperate side so theres a little brother to look down on. Qualification would be based on the number of drink rekated incidents players get involved in.

Cymroglan wrote:The problem is you could have four Grandparents all from different part of the world, two parents ,your country of birth, plus the residency ruling that makes eight countries you could possibly be eligible to play for and thats far too many.
In my opinion the rule should be country you were born in or the country your parents are from and I think the residency ruling should be extended to six years.

I don't see why you should be allowed to play for a country that you may have no affinity what so ever. Eg your Mum is born in Wales to two Spainish parents, your Dad is born in England to two Spainish parents, you are born in Singapore but move to Spain when you are 6 months old. Your language at home is Spanish with some English. You start playing rugby at a young age and are good. At 17 your family moves to NZ where you quickly enter age grade rugby and work your way up the ladder. By the time you are 22 you are international level.

Is it really appropriate for this person not to be eligible for Spain?
Why should he be eligible for Wales or England, countries he has no real connection to.
I know its fanciful but if you live in NZ you meet lots of people with complex heritages similar to that.

Every rule that is decided will create anomolies