Irish World Cup 30

First topic message reminder :

Declan Kidney announced the Ireland Rugby Squad for the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand today.


The squad will be captained by Brian O'Driscoll.

Forwards (16) Caps in Brackets

Props (4)
Tony Buckley (Sale Sharks)(23)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)(20)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)(20)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)(9)

Hookers (3)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)(49)
Sean Cronin (not assigned club yet/Leinster)(13)
Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)(39)

Second Rows (4)

Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster)(31)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)(74)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)(77)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)(9)

Backrows (5)

Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)(25)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)(37)
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)(52)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)(11)
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)(72)

Backs (14)

Scrumhalves (3)

Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)(14)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)(1)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)(31)

Outhalves (2)

Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)(110)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)(18)

Centres (3)

Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)(58)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) captain(113)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)(28)

Outside Backs (6)

Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)(39)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster)(20)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)(29)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester Tigers)(69)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)(4)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)(35)

Provincial Breakdown; Leinster 13, Munster 9, Ulster 5, Overseas 3

And the county breakdown. There are 12 counties and 2 overseas countries represented in the squad. For players born oversea but who grew up in Ireland, I put them down in the county they grew up and regard themselves as being from.

Limerick (7); Cronin, Flannery, Poc, D. Wallace, Reddan, Murray, Earls
Cork (4); Buckley, Ross, Doc, Rog
Dublin (3); Bod, Healy, Sexton
Kildare (3); Heaslip, G. Murphy, McFadden
Tipperary (2); Leamy, Ryan
Antrim (1); Ferris
Down (1); P.Wallace
Carlow (1); O'Brien
Armagh (1); Best
Wicklow (1); Cullen
Wexford (1); D'arcy
Louth (1); Kearney
Monaghan (1); Bowe
Derry/Londonderry/Whatever you want yourself (1); Trimble
Brisbane (1); Court
Tokoroa (1); Boss

That breaks down as;
Munster 13
Leinster 10
Ulster 5
Abroad/Poaches 2

Mickado wrote:You can’t Notch. But maybe some of the lads would have stats that back up the contrary??

Everyone needs to chill out, stop taking comments about players like people are talking about your kids.
We need a thunderstorm to clear the air, we got one in the last game of the 6nations, lets hope we get another one and stop nagging at eachother like oulwans in a sewing circle.

Sure its more important for Munster to win the HC anyway

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:BOD was to blame for that try pure and simple.

The problem I have with Leamy is he just seems to give away too many dumb penalties that are easily avoidable.

Stats do not tell the full story - context is everything.

The ERC stats do tell a full story - you lose points for giving away penalties which will affect your points total - and giving away a penalty in your own 22 which leads to a score for the other team will result in a higher points deduction.

I would have said its was BOD's fault, but I think Toland is a top class analyst with no axes to grind.

Also if you were a coach and there was a draft would you choose Leamy 7th out of all the forwards?! I know I would most definitely not

Well, funny enough I wouldn't fancy Leamy at Thighthead either. I think I'd be looking to fill each position first of all - you know, horses for courses!

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

What clique ? - how many of us have met another on here - the minority I am sure.

My assessment is you are one of the most defensive concerning your provinces players. Now we all do it to some extent and understandably so.
It is just my impression, and I suspect others, that you take it the extra yard.

Nothing wrong with that in itself, just don't be surprised when others point it out.

geoff998rugby wrote:What clique ? - how many of us have met another on here - the minority I am sure.

My assessment is you are one of the most defensive concerning your provinces players. Now we all do it to some extent and understandably so.
It is just my impression, and I suspect others, that you take it the extra yard.

Nothing wrong with that in itself, just don't be surprised when others point it out.

A clique is usually a minority - that is why its a clique.

IMO, I'm not half as defensive as some were here about Paddy Wallace & Rory Best.

I have been very critical of both of those in the past (and got into hot water with some Ulster supporters on the old 606 over it - I was accused of being sectarian by one Ulster fan).
Thing is, as soon as Rory Best performed well, I was the first to admit that he had a great game against England (and should have, imo got MOTM).

So while I may be guilty of defending Munster players in particualar (and think of it, I will know more about a Munster player than you will, just as you will know more about an Ulster player than I will - we will usually see our own clubs far more often than any other team).

I find it really frustrating then, when people make pronouncements on players on one game they have seen (they usually remember their worst game) - and in some instance on one incident and they will never change their mind again.

Mickado wrote:Yiz are all bollixes…

Isn't that an insult?

I take issue with you using a pejorative tone towards other posters and implying we know nothing about anything. Just because it's true and can be backed up with Stato's A-Z of handy statistics doesn't make it acceptable... FACT

If you really have to get an insult fix, perhaps you could tone it down a bit so as not to ruin the Irish threads with uncharacteristic bickering and swearing alien to this nation.
e.g.
Mickado - you are a biscuit (consisting of a biscuit base with jam, marshmallow and coconut on top)
So put that in yer mouth and chew it.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I agree with Mickado,the amount of criticism TOL got on here was ridiculous. You would think he slept with your sister or something. The fuppin thing hasn't even started yet!

Notch wrote:It's actually quite funny, as you seem entirely lacking in self-awareness. Everything is how you want to see it. Needless to say, such debates are NOT banned nor is anything else (within reason) but the day we see you harking back to a Leinster vs Munster game or anything else to support the case of a non-Munster player is when people might believe you're supporting Ireland without bring any kind of provincial perspective to the table.

The point people are making is this; the World Cup is coming up. Munster, Leinster, Ulster or Connacht aren't playing in the RWC but Ireland are. So while it's reasonable to talk about some form before the summer, it's becoming less and less relevant. Not irrelevant; but less relevant. Now is the time for us to get together and assess players without our provincial goggles on based on the context of what they provide to the team. It's not about tenuous point-scoring from games that happened months ago. When someone comes with an opinion that a player from another province is better than a Munster player in the context of the Ireland team, you jump on their back and start a long, dull argument that dominates the discussion. It becomes very hard to talk rugby.

Right now, I consider O'Gara to be ahead of Sexton in the pecking order based on what I've seen of the two players in the warm-ups although I believe Sexton may well be worth persevering with. Stag, an ardent Munster fan, disagrees and sees Sexton as our first choice. Pete, a Leinster fan agrees with Stag for much the same reasons regarding his running game. I personally feel O'Gara is playing a lot closer to the gainline and is distributing well.

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, but please consider that not everyone who wants certain players to start does it because of their provincial allegiance. Some of us want to talk rugby as one Irish fan to another without having to navigate round long arguments where the main objective is to argue that players from one province are better than another.

So astute. So right. And I sometimes (make that always) - have problems with this Ulster zealot at a provincial and national level. In a virtual sense. But, in this case - he's right.

It had to happen didn't it.
The mud slinging, the cheap shots, the missunderstandings, the typically provincial bias.
Jeebus lads are we not all Irish here? Can we not have reasonable debate and get behind our Country as we embark on the quest to get beyond the fecin Quarter Finals of this World Cup.

Goodbye again!! Ireland Abu!!

Thomond wrote:Without getting into this again,TOL works fairly well with clean ball,he got that in the first 10 minutes,he didn't for the rest of the match. His passing suffered when he went under pressure.


Sexton has all the tools to be better than ROG but as of now I would rate ROG the better player.

He is. No doubt. He needed a kick up de arrse to get him there though. But he is leading the way. For sure.

Your call Jonny. Thank phook we have that going on at outhalf, because elsewhere - its not happening.

Rava wrote:It had to happen didn't it.
The mud slinging, the cheap shots, the missunderstandings, the typically provincial bias.
Jeebus lads are we not all Irish here? Can we not have reasonable debate and get behind our Country as we embark on the quest to get beyond the fecin Quarter Finals of this World Cup.

Goodbye again!! Ireland Abu!!

A man, who has gone through 40 years of Irish hopes, false-dawns and pain like me. Kids. Get the phook on.

Be objective at least. Hard, I know. Jennings not playing v Oz (he may yet) - is the end of us (and effectively Kidney). Remember.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:Yiz are all bollixes…

Isn't that an insult?

I take issue with you using a pejorative tone towards other posters and implying we know nothing about anything. Just because it's true and can be backed up with Stato's A-Z of handy statistics doesn't make it acceptable... FACT

If you really have to get an insult fix, perhaps you could tone it down a bit so as not to ruin the Irish threads with uncharacteristic bickering and swearing alien to this nation.
e.g.
Mickado - you are a biscuit (consisting of a biscuit base with jam, marshmallow and coconut on top)
So put that in yer mouth and chew it.

I take issue with that slur on my person. But I will defend with my life your right to make it.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I know you are not a moderator. I want to know why I'm the only one apparently causing disruption. Is it because I'm not to post anything that the clique don't approve of?

How about all the accusations I've got for just provincial bias, but several posters have testified that I don't show any provincial bias in the teams I've picked and I've defended other players from provinces other than Munster.

How about acknowledging that - maybe there will be less provincial bull if people stopped resorting to throwing out the the the tired old line at this stage of 'you are provincially biased', 'you'd only have Munster players on the team' Poopie that I have to respond to all the time when it is blatently not true.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I know you are not a moderator. I want to know why I'm the only one apparently causing disruption. Is it because I'm not to post anything that the clique don't approve of?

How about all the accusations I've got for just provincial bias, but several posters have testified that I don't show any provincial bias in the teams I've picked and I've defended other players from provinces other than Munster.

How about acknowledging that - maybe there will be less provincial bull if people stopped resorting to throwing out the the the tired old line at this stage of 'you are provincially biased', 'you'd only have Munster players on the team' Poopie that I have to respond to all the time when it is blatently not true.

De-nile is not just a river in Africa you know Sin.

First step is admittance, we need to get you there to progress. You are a funny guy and I like your posts but lad, seriously, you are the most biased poster I have come across. The odd nod towards a non Munster player is an exception and not the rule with you I am afraid Sin.

Feagh McHugh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I know you are not a moderator. I want to know why I'm the only one apparently causing disruption. Is it because I'm not to post anything that the clique don't approve of?

How about all the accusations I've got for just provincial bias, but several posters have testified that I don't show any provincial bias in the teams I've picked and I've defended other players from provinces other than Munster.

How about acknowledging that - maybe there will be less provincial bull if people stopped resorting to throwing out the the the tired old line at this stage of 'you are provincially biased', 'you'd only have Munster players on the team' Poopie that I have to respond to all the time when it is blatently not true.

De-nile is not just a river in Africa you know Sin.

First step is admittance, we need to get you there to progress. You are a funny guy and I like your posts but lad, seriously, you are the most biased poster I have come across. The odd nod towards a non Munster player is an exception and not the rule with you I am afraid Sin.

+1

Feagh McHugh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I know you are not a moderator. I want to know why I'm the only one apparently causing disruption. Is it because I'm not to post anything that the clique don't approve of?

How about all the accusations I've got for just provincial bias, but several posters have testified that I don't show any provincial bias in the teams I've picked and I've defended other players from provinces other than Munster.

How about acknowledging that - maybe there will be less provincial bull if people stopped resorting to throwing out the the the tired old line at this stage of 'you are provincially biased', 'you'd only have Munster players on the team' Poopie that I have to respond to all the time when it is blatently not true.

De-nile is not just a river in Africa you know Sin.

First step is admittance, we need to get you there to progress. You are a funny guy and I like your posts but lad, seriously, you are the most biased poster I have come across. The odd nod towards a non Munster player is an exception and not the rule with you I am afraid Sin.

Whats biased about claiming that Denis Leamy's disciplinary is bad, when in fact his record is better than Jamie Heaslip & Sean O'Brien? (And that pete is so totally biased towards Leinster, he can't admit he got that point wrong in the first place).

Why is it biased to post that one aspect of Jonathan Sexton's game is not all that it is cracked up to be? (getting the backline moving). Are those who claim that O'Gara is one dimentional and can't get a backline moving also provincially motivated with these comments? (and is Notch telling them off for being disruptive?)

I'll highlight the extremes of two different types of reactions on here to the same example:

One could say 'He had a poor day today by his standards'
the other could say 'I never want to see him in a green jersey ever again!'

Some people are incapable of being REASONABLE.

Sin E goes further, he appears to not even recognice the above word nevermind define it.

I love the Ireland Rugby and anyone who plays well should get a chance, i will never right anyone off indefinatly.

I'd like everyone who supports Ireland on here to make the same patriotic pledge!

Sin é wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

It takes two to tango alright. I seem to be the one who gets rapped on the knuckles the most though by your good self. I don't see you calling anyone else out to the bold step.
Is this because I'm not part of the clique?

I'm not rapping anyone on the knuckles

I'm not a moderator. I'm just trying to help you understand why you're causing so much disruption.

I know you are not a moderator. I want to know why I'm the only one apparently causing disruption. Is it because I'm not to post anything that the clique don't approve of?

How about all the accusations I've got for just provincial bias, but several posters have testified that I don't show any provincial bias in the teams I've picked and I've defended other players from provinces other than Munster.

How about acknowledging that - maybe there will be less provincial bull if people stopped resorting to throwing out the the the tired old line at this stage of 'you are provincially biased', 'you'd only have Munster players on the team' Poopie that I have to respond to all the time when it is blatently not true.

De-nile is not just a river in Africa you know Sin.

First step is admittance, we need to get you there to progress. You are a funny guy and I like your posts but lad, seriously, you are the most biased poster I have come across. The odd nod towards a non Munster player is an exception and not the rule with you I am afraid Sin.

Whats biased about claiming that Denis Leamy's disciplinary is bad, when in fact his record is better than Jamie Heaslip & Sean O'Brien? (And that pete is so totally biased towards Leinster, he can't admit he got that point wrong in the first place).

Why is it biased to post that one aspect of Jonathan Sexton's game is not all that it is cracked up to be? (getting the backline moving). Are those who claim that O'Gara is one dimentional and can't get a backline moving also provincially motivated with these comments? (and is Notch telling them off for being disruptive?)

Let it go Sin

Personally not interested in this one, but go knock yourself out.....

I'm going to come in on sin e side on this group attack

First of all nearly all irish supporters are bias provincially thats what makes are provinces so strong(fanatical support)

And i think the main problem here is that alot of the time he has stats to back up his assumtions, he is a better debater then alot of people so even when he is wrong he comes off the arguement after frustrating people.

First they came for the WUMS, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a WUM.

Then they came for the provinicially bias, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a provinicially bias.

Then they came for the Sin é, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Sin é,.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

I agree with D24tress plus I think that there are a few people here obsessed with Sin e.

Didn't I say yesterday that it was perhaps the fact that Leamy gave away important penalties or stupid penalties?

I don't see how I can be biased when I support so many other players over Leisnter ones and freely debate so.

Oh well

BlueMuff wrote:I agree with D24tress plus I think that there are a few people here obsessed with Sin e.

Have the courage to direct that at somebody, at least others whether defending or getting on to Sin do.

I'll highlight the extremes of two different types of reactions on here to the same example:

One could say 'He had a poor day today by his standards'
the other could say 'I never want to see him in a green jersey ever again!'

Some people are incapable of being REASONABLE.

Sin E goes further, he appears to not even recognice the above word nevermind define it.

I love the Ireland Rugby and anyone who plays well should get a chance, i will never right anyone off indefinatly.

I'd like everyone who supports Ireland on here to make the same patriotic pledge!

EDIT: To be fair quite often SinE makes fair arguments, but it's the finality of his judgements that bother me. He leaves no room sometimes for players attitudes and abilities to change and improve. I am pretty sure that any negativity on my part has been on individual performances, and never have I been overly critical of a players entire proffessional career.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Didn't I say yesterday that it was perhaps the fact that Leamy gave away important penalties or stupid penalties?

I don't see how I can be biased when I support so many other players over Leisnter ones and freely debate so.

Oh well

And I responded that Heaslip getting 8 YCs and O'Brien 3 YCs to Leamy 4 YCs to date, suggest that both Heaslip & O'Brien are giving away more important penalties considering Leamy is playing rugby for a couple more seasons than either of them.

Ahhhh, back to the old sewing circle.

D24tress wrote:I'm going to come in on sin e side on this group attack

First of all nearly all irish supporters are bias provincially thats what makes are provinces so strong(fanatical support)

And i think the main problem here is that alot of the time he has stats to back up his assumtions, he is a better debater then alot of people so even when he is wrong he comes off the arguement after frustrating people.

First they came for the WUMS, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a WUM.

Then they came for the provinicially bias, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a provinicially bias.

Then they came for the Sin é, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Sin é,.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

Fairplay D24 for rebelling against the establishment here!

Like you, I don't know what the big deal is about provincial bias. I get the impression that people talk so much about it here that they are trying to convince themselves that they are not provincially biased.

clivemcl wrote:
EDIT: To be fair quite often SinE makes fair arguments, but it's the finality of his judgements that bother me. He leaves no room sometimes for players attitudes and abilities to change and improve. I am pretty sure that any negativity on my part has been on individual performances, and never have I been overly critical of a players entire proffessional career.

I think I'm usually the first to admit that I've changed my mind about a player. I seem to remember not rating Andrew Trimble at one stage and saying so (terrible under a high ball, and no kicking game - probably '09 season).

I was very happy during the 6Ns to highlight the vast improvements in both those areas of his game.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Didn't I say yesterday that it was perhaps the fact that Leamy gave away important penalties or stupid penalties?

I don't see how I can be biased when I support so many other players over Leisnter ones and freely debate so.

Oh well

And I responded that Heaslip getting 8 YCs and O'Brien 3 YCs to Leamy 4 YCs to date, suggest that both Heaslip & O'Brien are giving away more important penalties considering Leamy is playing rugby for a couple more seasons than either of them.

And are these stats, taking their whole career's into account? International, league and HCup?
If so I will agree with you that they get more yellow cards.
I still believe Leamy is illdisciplined and gives a way idiotic penalties

Richie McCaw is illdisciplined and has made an art out of being so yet not getting yellow cards and maybe conceeding less penalties than he should.
I still believe Leamy gives away a lot of silly and stupid penalties.


I totally accept and respect that you may think differently.
Can we draw a line there?

One point I would suggest, for us all to adher to, is that if you feel someone has made a direct attack against an individual you feel is unreasonable then name names and lets discuss.

Posting things like "There are people here who..." without referring to who you mean is just as bad. Its the scatter gun of insults.

We are all Irish here, well (90% of us on this thread), and I think I would be safe in assuming that we all want Ireland to do well. So openness and reasonableness towards each other will serve us well in the weeks ahead.

Here, here Geoff!

geoff998rugby wrote:One point I would suggest, for us all to adher to, is that if you feel someone has made a direct attack against an individual you feel is unreasonable then name names and lets discuss.

Posting things like "There are people here who..." without referring to who you mean is just as bad. Its the scatter gun of insults.

We are all Irish here, well (90% of us on this thread), and I think I would be safe in assuming that we all want Ireland to do well. So openness and reasonableness towards each other will serve us well in the weeks ahead.

+1

sensible man is our geoff

geoff998rugby wrote:One point I would suggest, for us all to adher to, is that if you feel someone has made a direct attack against an individual you feel is unreasonable then name names and lets discuss.

Posting things like "There are people here who..." without referring to who you mean is just as bad. Its the scatter gun of insults.

We are all Irish here, well (90% of us on this thread), and I think I would be safe in assuming that we all want Ireland to do well. So openness and reasonableness towards each other will serve us well in the weeks ahead.

Well, I do feel that there are people who gang up on me a bit. The usual 'attack' (response really) is tedious - it usually 'you are just provincially biased ...' I'm used to it now though and determined to get that phrase banned on this site.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Didn't I say yesterday that it was perhaps the fact that Leamy gave away important penalties or stupid penalties?

I don't see how I can be biased when I support so many other players over Leisnter ones and freely debate so.

Oh well

And I responded that Heaslip getting 8 YCs and O'Brien 3 YCs to Leamy 4 YCs to date, suggest that both Heaslip & O'Brien are giving away more important penalties considering Leamy is playing rugby for a couple more seasons than either of them.

And are these stats, taking their whole career's into account? International, league and HCup?
If so I will agree with you that they get more yellow cards.
I still believe Leamy is illdisciplined and gives a way idiotic penalties

Richie McCaw is illdisciplined and has made an art out of being so yet not getting yellow cards and maybe conceeding less penalties than he should.
I still believe Leamy gives away a lot of silly and stupid penalties.


I totally accept and respect that you may think differently.
Can we draw a line there?

Stats are for all Club games.
International cards:
Leamy 2 (52 caps); Healip: 1 Red (37 caps). O'Brien 0 cards (11 caps).

David Wallace has an outstanding record for a 7.
Club 3 YC (200 caps)
Country 2 YC (70 caps).

Edit: We can leave it there, but next time you are doing a critique on Ireland's backrowers if you are going to say Leamy has poor discipline, you better include the same comment for both Heislip & O'Brien. Otherwise, I'll point it out for the benefit of your readers.

Hmmm... seven pages - not bad for a thread where basically everyone was in agreement...

Anyway moving on, does anyone think Leamy has a poor disciplinary record?

Naughty..very naughty of you.

Sin É,gets ganged up on a lot of the time. People claim he is biased towards Munster,for all this Leamy talk I don't think he has ever said Leamy should start. O'Gara/Sexton is gettng close and many would agree ROG is in the lead. I don't see how that is bias. He defends Munster players,who at times come in for a lot of unjust critcism(*cough* Tomas O'Leary *cough). I don't recall him making a comment where he claims a Munster player should start ahead of another one. Most of his comments are grand,but interpreted badly. Leamy has decent discipline,his penalty count would be fairly low but the penalties he does give away are idiotic,this is why he is seen to have poor discipline.

The Great Aukster wrote:Hmmm... seven pages - not bad for a thread where basically everyone was in agreement...

Anyway moving on, does anyone think Leamy has a poor disciplinary record?

of course he does
and

wallace and o'gara cant tackle
poc and cullen physically cant be on the pitch at the same time
Kearney has never ran a ball back once in his entire career

Conor murray (or cormac if you listen to hooky)can walk on water and turn it into wine

whats the general consencus around the 3 centres you guys are taking?

obviously we'll know more after tomorrows game, but, possible risk there?

Does anyone in Ireland rate Downey at 12 of northampton? Not the flashiest of players, but direct and effective at club level at least? Has he had any wolfhounds appearances at least to see if he can make that step up? (bit out the loop with Irish centres although I know theres a lot of hope on the youngsters coming through at ulster/leinster).

Yes he got 3 Irish Wolfhound games in last 2 seasons. Can't say I rate him all that highly to be honest. I remember how amazing the likes of Eoin Reddan, Jonny O'Connor, Ian Humphreys, Johne Murphy etc were thought of in the Premiership.

Downey is simply another player at that level. Alright but not amazing.

No, I don't rate Downey at all. People talk about the need for ireland to add a strike runner in the centres- which we would in an ideal world- talk about how New Zealand have Nonu, South Africa have De Villiers etc. Then they say we should pick Downey. It feels like the punchline of a joke I'm not getting.

Downey, to be fair to him, was given a chance in the same Churchill Cup team as McFadden and Jones. Kidney was impressed with the latter two and but for an unfortunate injury they both would be in our WC squad, whereas Downey was passed on.

If we don't have an international class player who offers that physicality and go forward- and we don't- we have to devise a gameplan that revolves around getting the best of the centres we do have. It's not that our backline lacks strike runners; we have very strong running wings. Either D'Arcy or Wallace need to be used in such a way that brings them into the game. My concern is that we're doing this in a way that is very lateral.

Ulster have an incredibly simple move where the winger picks a line off the inside shoulder of the 12 and it's a simple 9-10-12 with an inside pass to 14. Thats about as basic as backs moves come, but even trying that would add more variety than trying to go right across the pitch off every phase- especially if it were D'Arcy coming to the line and committing a man, drawing more defenders in then going wide. Right now we haven't (cliche alert) earned the right to go wide. We've seen Trimble at first receiver in attack at times- thats not a bad answer to the question but why not use him as a decoy as well?

It's not our centres I'm worried about. It's our backs coach! Sorry for the long answer.

No i agree, hes not going to set the world alight, but I would have thought Kidney would at least have looked at him over the last season. Hes a solid, not do much wrong, not tantalise you sort of player. what with Darcy's inconsistency, BOD being on/off with injury, I would have thought that he could be a good option just to cement midfield for Ireland, Wallace doesnt seem to add anything at international level (i know thats a potential sore-spot to poke so just my opinion!)

Saying that if hes had chances and hasnt impressed in the Wolfhounds hes not going to get near the Ireland side.

How long do you think before some of the promising youngsters start to really bite the Darcy/O'Driscoll combination in the heels?

Hmm, not next year but the year after. None of Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden or Luke Marshall are ready to play test rugby in the centre the same way as Wallace, D'Arcy and BOD are in my opinion. These guys need to be being readily selected for their provinces. First choice centre partnership for Ulster, in my view, would be Paddy Wallace and Darren Cave. So Spence and Marshall- the centre combo of our future- have a lot of work to do to make it. Same thing with McFadden at Leinster.

Comfort I would say by 2012/2013 the Darcy - O'Driscoll partnership will be dissolving internationally. At 12, McFadden and Marshall appear the likely lads with Ian Keatley a dark horse. At 13, Spence and Earls are probably most likely.

Luke Fitz is a player who I wouldn't be surprised to see turn out as a good centre.

Could Cave have something to offer at test level? Not sure.

I think he could but don't think he will. I see him as an excellent club man.

Spence has got a big battle on his hands this year at Ulster. Darren Cave is back and playing well and Nevin is going to need to really lift his game if he wants to stay in the team! And if he doesn't make the team, he won't play for Ireland.

What is frustrating is that Spence has the athleticism, dynamism and physicality to survive at test level but not the decision making, footballing game or creativity. So he needs to do a lot of work before his name can be thrown into the wing. Cave, on the other hand, is strong in all the areas where Spence is weak but lacks top-end pace and strength. He's a better player but that extra bit of athleticism makes a big difference at test level.

I wouldn't view either as future options for Ireland, but like Trimble before him Spence can get there if he works on the weaknesses in his game. Spence has the potential to be international class, particularly if paired with a second five-eighth like Luke Marshall even though Darren Cave is currently the better rugby player.

Notch wrote:Hmm, not next year but the year after. None of Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden or Luke Marshall are ready to play test rugby in the centre the same way as Wallace, D'Arcy and BOD are in my opinion. These guys need to be being readily selected for their provinces. First choice centre partnership for Ulster, in my view, would be Paddy Wallace and Darren Cave. So Spence and Marshall- the centre combo of our future- have a lot of work to do to make it. Same thing with McFadden at Leinster.

Danny Barnes made an impressive break through at the end of last season. Be interesting to see if he can make that spot his own while the WC is going on.

Comfort wrote:
Does anyone in Ireland rate Downey at 12 of northampton?

I would take Paddy Wallace ahead of him every time.

No... Really. I would.

BlueMuff wrote:

Notch wrote:Hmm, not next year but the year after. None of Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden or Luke Marshall are ready to play test rugby in the centre the same way as Wallace, D'Arcy and BOD are in my opinion. These guys need to be being readily selected for their provinces. First choice centre partnership for Ulster, in my view, would be Paddy Wallace and Darren Cave. So Spence and Marshall- the centre combo of our future- have a lot of work to do to make it. Same thing with McFadden at Leinster.

Danny Barnes made an impressive break through at the end of last season. Be interesting to see if he can make that spot his own while the WC is going on.

Yeah, I'd like to see more of him. I've got to confess that whilst I've been impressed enough with his ML form I've no ideas whether he has what it takes to go to a higher level so I'll be keeping a very close eye on him