"Ball Striking"

by Bob_the_Job Wed 24 Aug 2011, 4:47 pm

I hear commentators use this phrase a lot - especially in relation to Garcia - "he's the best ball striker on tour".

What do they mean? I would have thought the best ball striker would have the best stats for a number of measurements - eg GIR. Garcia is 6th which I guess is pretty good, but they never talk about Jbe Kruger as a great ball striker and he leads that stat.

However, they way people talk about ball striking implies it's some sort of sub, but independent component of the swing - it implies you can have a good swing but bad ball striking and vice versa. Can you? If you swing the club well, surely you will strike the ball well.. end of?

by drive4show Wed 24 Aug 2011, 4:53 pm

Good point well made!

Don't know the answer, you raise an interesting question. I'm going away to have a think about it.........

by George1507 Wed 24 Aug 2011, 4:59 pm

When you look at some players, the ball just seems to fizz off the club. It always looks effortless, the ball goes arrow straight and everything seems so simple.

I think that's what they mean by 'good ball striking'.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 24 Aug 2011, 5:05 pm

George1507 wrote:When you look at some players, the ball just seems to fizz off the club. It always looks effortless, the ball goes arrow straight and everything seems so simple.

I think that's what they mean by 'good ball striking'.

Is that not just a product of having a good swing?

by jeffkenna Wed 24 Aug 2011, 5:13 pm

I suppose when I think of the best "ball strikers" it's the guys who have that pure, crisp, true strike of a golf ball where the ball just seems to, as someone said there, "fizz off the club" and to pierce through the air with such speed and precision. The best ball strikers are those guys who can cope with a set of traditional blade irons, they require the greater workability afforded by such clubs.

by Davie Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:06 pm

I've always took it to mean that they are the ones who hit the ball "pure" 90-odd percent of the time.

It could be "pure" 10 yards left or 10 yards right though

I'd take the guy who tops the GIR stats every day. Don't care if he chunks it there or thins it there - getting it on the green is what it's all about

Maybe a valid comparison is the F1 car that is the fastest but blows up in 30% of the grand prix

by jeffkenna Thu 25 Aug 2011, 8:59 am

I know it sounds silly but i get more satisfaction out of striking a pure shot than just chunking it out there and getting the job done! Perhaps that is why i always try to hit the perfect shot and not quite good enough to pull it off all the time end up not quite scoring as well as i perhaps should!

by Lairdy Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:11 am

Perhaps it is another word for technique? Like in football there are many players who have great technique but not necessary great players... maybe not. I dunno...

I think the description that ball striking means hitting it out of the middle of the club a high % of the time is the best so far. Its usually applied to the full swing shots from tee to green.

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:26 am

Ok, so the conclusion I'm coming to, is that it's about how consistently you hit the ball with the sweet spot of the club face? Which is fine - but it's not separate to the swing - there is no bit of technique I'm missing (other than the obvious).

The trigger for this is that I've been working at not "hitting at the ball" but rather "collecting it on the way through" and this generally seems to produce better/more satisfying shots with my irons, so I would guess I'm making better connection or "striking the ball" better. I just see it as a result of swinging less hard, and thus swinging better.

by Doc Thu 25 Aug 2011, 10:07 am

In my humble opinion, the term means that Sergio has a very repetative swing. All of us can go out and have a good round, hitting plenty of greens in regulation etc and get a decent score. But I for one have gone into the clubhouse after a decent round, and when asked how I had got on, said 'hitting some great balls today, but didn't score that well'. Any of us can hit greens etc, but we get there by a mixture of slight off centre strikes. You know when you've hit a great shot, feels fantastic and comes straight off the sweet spot (If there is such a thing). Missing that spot slightly on most shots is what I do. The ball will still go close to where you wanted it, even if its a bitt toppy or a bit thin. If I could hit the spot more often than not, then I would be as good as Sergio.

by shclaff Thu 25 Aug 2011, 10:26 am

This was mentioned a lot at The Open this year. When the weather was bad, commentators kept saying that the best ball strikers would do well.

I thought it related to how players can play different types of shots i.e better ball-strikers are more adept at shaping it both ways, altering their trajectory etc.?

by jeffkenna Thu 25 Aug 2011, 10:31 am

schlaff- following on from that I would say that the purer the strike on the ball the less likely it is to be affected by the wind, just seems to pierce through. Also I would say that the better ball strikers have more of a feel for the ball on the club face, a better feel for what is required in the strike to control ball flight, trajectory and spin

by Lairdy Thu 25 Aug 2011, 10:44 am

Ball striking could just mean that you are good at running up to guys and giving them a good kick in the haw maws.

(Haw maws = baws = balls for those not Scottish, or Glaswegian.)

by goldwolf Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:06 am

Doc wrote:In my humble opinion, the term means that Sergio has a very repetative swing. All of us can go out and have a good round, hitting plenty of greens in regulation etc and get a decent score. But I for one have gone into the clubhouse after a decent round, and when asked how I had got on, said 'hitting some great balls today, but didn't score that well'. Any of us can hit greens etc, but we get there by a mixture of slight off centre strikes. You know when you've hit a great shot, feels fantastic and comes straight off the sweet spot (If there is such a thing). Missing that spot slightly on most shots is what I do. The ball will still go close to where you wanted it, even if its a bitt toppy or a bit thin. If I could hit the spot more often than not, then I would be as good as Sergio.

I'll see your Sergio Garcia, and raise you Luke Donald! Wink

by SetupDeterminesTheMotion Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:08 am

Bob_the_Job wrote:. Can you? If you swing the club well, surely you will strike the ball well.. end of?

For many years I have had this aimed at myself.

Great swing, but terrible ball striking. Thats why I play off 12.

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:19 am

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:

Great swing, but terrible ball striking. Thats why I play off 12.

This goes to the heart of what I mean. With all due respect, if your swing is great, should it not return the club head to the ball in a manner which means it gets struck well?

by shclaff Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:43 am

Bob_the_Job wrote: This goes to the heart of what I mean. With all due respect, if your swing is great, should it not return the club head to the ball in a manner which means it gets struck well?

That makes sense but no two swings are the same and therefore some will naturally produce a better ball strike than others.

When talking about pros they're all phenomenal ball strikers compared to your average golfer, its just that some are better than others.

by kwinigolfer Thu 25 Aug 2011, 12:10 pm

Doesn't matter what the swing looks like, it's what happens at impact that is the key, just ask Ray Floyd or Furyk.

In the context of the original question, about "commentators" using the phrase, don't you think this is just an Americanism, often in the context of "great ball-striker, can't putt" as they traditionally, and usually gratuitously, say about Sergio?

The PGA Tour stat "ball striking", is the combination of "total driving" plus "greens in regulation", but that can also offer mixed messages, as was illustrated last year when Miller slammed Poulter's "ball striking" not because he didn't like the way Poults hit the ball, but because he was close to the bottom of the ball-striking stat. Poults tweeted him to point out that he was top-ish of the equivalent European Tour stat.

(I've seldom seen anyone make the ball "fizz" at impact like Immelman does yet he's way down the ball-striking" stats!)

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 25 Aug 2011, 12:24 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:I hear commentators use this phrase a lot - especially in relation to Garcia - "he's the best ball striker on tour".

Ah. If he could only putt....

Bob_the_Job wrote:What do they mean? I would have thought the best ball striker would have the best stats for a number of measurements - eg GIR. Garcia is 6th which I guess is pretty good, but they never talk about Jbe Kruger as a great ball striker and he leads that stat.

I suspect it's an over-rated statement to make anyway. At the top level they all hit it well, by definition. It's probably more about a commentator's bias and a feeling that so-and-so is a great ball striker and I'd imagine that comes down to what the swing being watched looks like, the sound of the strike, the divot size etc etc. For example, Garcia clearly hits the ball exceptionally well but his swing is very athletic looking etc etc. Stricker must be a good striker by definition given his achievements but, to me at least, he doesn't have the 'umph' that Garcia does in his swing. I bet he hits it as well though.

Bob_the_Job wrote:However, they way people talk about ball striking implies it's some sort of sub, but independent component of the swing - it implies you can have a good swing but bad ball striking and vice versa. Can you? If you swing the club well, surely you will strike the ball well.. end of?

It doesn't matter what the swing looks like (more or less) in the main as long as the position at impact is correct. I'd say if you're right through impact, you're a good ball striker. I don't really see how you can't be.

by hend085 Thu 25 Aug 2011, 12:28 pm

i think you are missing the point that you can strike the ball great while still pushing or pulling it off line.
there may be a flaw in the swing making you do this but the connection to the ball can still be great

by barragan Thu 25 Aug 2011, 12:45 pm

for me:

getting the clubhead back to square at impact = good swing

achieving maximum speed at impact + the above = good ball striking

also, are these not the 2 factors which are used to determine the "smash factor" on some of these club testing facilities ? seem to remember when testing my last purchase a year or so ago the guy saying that the max possible measurement on this scale for a perfect strike was 1.50, and that most pros will achieve something between 1.45 and 1.48 on average.

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:09 pm

ban_bam wrote:
also, are these not the 2 factors which are used to determine the "smash factor" on some of these club testing facilities ? seem to remember when testing my last purchase a year or so ago the guy saying that the max possible measurement on this scale for a perfect strike was 1.50, and that most pros will achieve something between 1.45 and 1.48 on average.

That sounds like the Coefficient of Restitution (the 1.50), which from an engineering perspective makes sense (although it would be dependent on the compression of the ball too). So pros getting between 1.45 and 1.48 is then a measure of good striking....we have a winner!

Still think it's the swing that matters (not how pretty or classical it looks, but how well it returns the club head to the ball) and when commentators talk about good ball striking, they really mean a powerful, accurate and repeatable swing - in my book a good swing. I'm now satisfied with this understanding and will sing the "La la la, I'm not listening song" with my fingers in my ~~ears~~ eyes if anyone comes up with anything to the contrary Very Happy

by Maverick Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:17 pm

How good the swing or bad the swing is irrelevant all that matters is the ability to consistently deliver the clubface square to the ball at impact. For this I would say Luke Donald great iron player, poor driver so he is not a great all round ball striker but is one of the best iron players you will find.

Of your looking at GIR and FIR to establish this then the likes of Toms and Stricker would be right up there.

For crispness of ball Striking then 2 of the best I have personally witnessed, Sergio and Nick Price

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:21 pm

Smash factor = ball speed/clubhead speed. Max allowed CoR is 0.83 (for a driver); not sure you can have a CoR > 1 can you? A value of 1 is a perfect, elastic collision. I assume there's some mathematical reason why max smash factor is 1.50 but have no idea what that is!

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:32 pm

Correct - a CoR of more than one is not possible, or if it was, would lead to Perpetual Motion, but I suspect the smash factor is a ratio of the CoR, and the fact that there seems to be an average for a pro suggests it relates to how well the club face meets the ball.

by drive4show Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:35 pm

Smash factor is all the rage in club fitting just now. It is the ratio of clubhead speed versus ball speed. A clubhead speed of 100mph nad a ball speed of 150mph will give you a smash factor of 1.50

This is obviously governed by the CoR of the clubface and by the compression of the ball. I don't know if there is any specified limits (I'm sure there will be somewhere) but the highest I have ever witnessed by someone on a flightscope is around the 1.45 mark.

by Maverick Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:40 pm

Smash Factor and Spin Loft
Smash factor – The ratio between the ball speed and the club speed.

As a parameter, it is an expression of the player’s ability to generate ball speed based on a given club speed. Technically, the smash factor says a lot about the centeredness of impact and the solidity of the shot - there is a strong correlation between the degree of centeredness at impact and the obtained smash factor.

Here’s an example. If the player swings his club at 100mph and the ball speed is 140mph then his smash factor will be 1.40But if the golfer could obtain a smash factor of 1.48 with a more controlled swing having a lower club speed of 98 mph, the ball speed would be increased to 145 mph – i.e. an additional 5 mph ball speed by swinging slower. Since 1 more mph ball speed (all other things equal) will generate 2 more yards carry, an extra 10 yards is added to the drive in this case by swinging with more control! Further, the more controlled swing will most likely have a very positive effect on dispersion.

Hitting the ball well will improve your ball speed /smash factor this is where most amateur golfers go wrong by trying to hit the ball hard they loose control and make more off centre hits. From a coaches perspective it would be easy to help the pupil improve their ball striking rather than increase their club head speed.

So what is the highest smash factor you can achieve?? Well there are other factors that will influence smash factor. One is coefficient of restitution between club and ball (COR) and the other is Spin Loft. But tour players try and head for around 1.47

This then tells us that if you were to swing a heavy club at the same speed as a lighter club the ball will go further. Usually though a heavy club is swing slower and there may be a loss of control. It’s worth having a play with one club to experiment how this effect you as an individual. Everyone has a different strength.

The USGA and R&A set a limit for the coefficient of Resistance (COR) to 0.83.

Spin Loft – The angle between the club face orientation (actual loft) and the club head direction. (Attack angle)

SPIN LOFT = Dynamic (”delivered”) Loft —(minus) Attack Angle

We have a driver with 10° of loft.

If we have a level strike, with a delivered loft of 10° (no forward or backward lean), the spin loft will be 10°.

If we have a forward leaning shaft of 2°, and a delivered loft of 8° (because in this example, we are delofting the 10° head), and a downward strike of 2°, we have the same damn spin loft of 10°.
If we can accomplish a forward lean of 2°, and a upward strike of 1°, and a delivered loft of 8°, we get a SPIN LOFT of 7° and more ball speed, thus a higher smash factor.

Pulled this from http://www.gaspsystems.com/blog/?p=288

think that gives definition but Smash factor will always be one of those things where despite knowing the calculations will always be somewaht ambiguos to the general golfer

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:51 pm

Mav: Nice one, I used to be an engineer, so this makes sense to me, and also vindicates my recent move to hitting less aggressively, but getting a better result. Cheers.

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