Nevin Spence?

Every time I've seen this guy play he has been immense - Can some of you Irish guys tell me why he's not in the Ireland squad when we have the likes of young lads such as North and Tuilagi showing up well. The guy for me is an amazing prospect and could genuinely replace BOD if he continues as he is.

Can someone put this on the International section please

Basically because he is in same position as BOD. The current mentality seems to be that theres no point to have a backup 13 as we are just gonna pick BOD. Ireland seem to prefer an approach where is we need drop him we pick a winger like Bowe, Earls, McFadden there instead.

Cheers Stag - I just think this guy is a phenomenal talent and should be in the mix somewhere 12, 13, 14 who gives a shxx when you've got such a talent - Sometimes you have to experiment eh

Rumour is that he may not get in the Ulster team next season.

He was injured and not considered for selection for the WC. He has been involved in Ireland training squads this year and given our lack of current centre options then I'm sure his 1st cap is only just around the corner.

For me he was the outstanding young Irish talent this season and arguably was the best Irish centre over the course of the season.

Another Ulster player in the squad? Neil Francis would have a fit, we're already over the quota.

red_stag wrote:Rumour is that he may not get in the Ulster team next season.

I doubt that very much, especially considering Brian McL has just stated how unlucky he is not to be involved in the WC.

Cave is in fantastic form but I'd be very surprised if Spence doesn't have another big season.

I've seen several Ulster fans suggesting that Cave will or should get the 13 shirt. Don't forget that Cave is still only 24 with 8 Ireland 'A' games and a handful of international caps to his name.

I think Spence will be the next person to hold on to the Irish 13 jersey for an extended period, really don't see earls as a centre

Maybe he will Stag and to be fair Cave has looked superb since returning but I would be very suprised if Spence struggles to get games somewhere.

The 3/4's will be very competitive next season with Payne coming but for me Spence was hands down our best back last season and at 20 is a far better player than the likes of Bowe and Trimble were at the same age.

If Spence plays like he did last year then I would say he'll be a starter for sure.

To be honest Cave is a better 13, Wallace is a better 12 and Trimble and Danielli are better wingers. It's hard to know where to fit Spence in. He'll get plenty of gametime though.

If he learns how/when to pass/offload he'll be a genuinely great player. He has all the physical attributes. Right now he's a useful player with a lot to develop about his game before he can play international rugby.

And again... better than Trimble and Bowe at the same age? There's no need for hyperbole. He does remind me of Trimble at that age, in that he's a bit one-dimensional and took teams by surprise. I'd say he'll struggle to make the same impact this year unless he broadens his skill set.

I'm very excited by what he and Luke Marshall can achieve together as a partnership; he really needs a playmaker inside him to get the best out of him, whether that be a creative 10 when he's lining up at 12 or a second five-eighth type player when he's at outside centre.

Notch wrote:he really needs a playmaker inside him to get the best out of him, whether that be a creative 10 when he's lining up at 12 or a second five-eighth type player when he's at outside centre.

We'll probably see him get a run alongside Ronan O'Gara and Gordon Darcy. I wish him all the best if its playmakers he needs

Notch wrote:
And again... better than Trimble and Bowe at the same age? There's no need for hyperbole. He does remind me of Trimble at that age, in that he's a bit one-dimensional and took teams by surprise. I'd say he'll struggle to make the same impact this year unless he broadens his skill set.

What Hyperbole Notch? What had Trimble and Bowe achieved at 20? Spence is a better and more complete player than Bowe was at the time of the last WC and certainly more complete than Trimble was when he was 1st capped in 2005.

I'm not sure why you dislike Spence so much Notch but he's as good a 20 year old as I've seen in Ireland since O'Driscoll. You obviously have pretty high expectations of what a 20 year old should be able to do in their 1st season.

He'll be a marked man next season and needs to improve but he has plenty of time to do so and already has many of the assets needed to be a top centre.

Did we not see signs that Brian was going to try Spence and Cave alongside each other with Marshall sitting out?

I expect to see a lot of rotation this season. Imagine having this dilemna of who gets to start in the centre when Paddy and trimble are away in NZ! If someone told us to expect this conversation a few years ago, we'd have laughed at them!

Good times! Bring on Friday night!

I dislike Spence? Come on man. I'm just trying to inject a bit of realism into the discussion. The guy is a good player who lacks some of the basic skills required of an international centre; I believe if he develops those skills there's nothing stopping him from being a top-class centre. Let's not rush to anoint him our new God until he can nail down a place for Ulster. He needs to improve and grow as a player to do that in the coming season. We have a lot of competition at centre.

He has the right players around him; the amount he can learn from someone like Wallace in terms of decision making and when to throw the pass/offload/take contact is huge. Let's hope he does just that.

roddersm wrote:You obviously have pretty high expectations of what a 20 year old should be able to do in their 1st season.

Do I? I'm not the one who expects him to make the transition from U20s to full test status in less than a year. I'm the one who is saying he might still have a thing or two to learn about the game! Has there ever been a 20-year old player who doesn't?

His age is not the issue, The issue is over whether he should play for Ireland. Either he is good enough or not good enough; doesn't matter if he is 20 or 35. I want to see him continue to develop his game at Ulster and earn international honours, not to see test caps thrust upon him before he has earned them or is ready.

I was absolutely delighted with the form of Nevin Spence in his debut season needless to say

clivemcl wrote:Did we not see signs that Brian was going to try Spence and Cave alongside each other with Marshall sitting out?

Yeah, I think he will. I'm a bit worried; for me Marshall is far and away the young player with the most potential coming through the Ulster set-up, and there is a lot of competition. He has all the ingredients of a genuinely top class inside centre and I want to see him get some gametime! He has lessons to learn and will have bad games but Ireland, nevermind Ulster, need to see this guy get time on the pitch. The poverty of talent at 12 confirms it.

Paddy McAllister, Craig Gilroy and Paddy Jackson run him close in terms of my excitement over what they can do, but Luke Marshall can be as good as he wants to be.

Notch wrote:

I dislike Spence? Come on man.

OK sorry Notch ignore that one I'm still a bit grumpy after coming back from my holidays

I do think you are being a bit harsh and I think on merit he's in the top 4 centres in the country based on this seasons form and at least a season ahead of Gilroy, Marshall et al in terms of development.

Of course he's not guaranteed a place and I'm delighted at how well Cave is playing. It's great that there's real competition for place across the backline now and to be honest Payne will need to be on top form to get a start

I think the Ireland coaches have got selection for the centres right. But tactics are badly wrong for them.

Our centres are all better players than they look right now.

Notch wrote:I think the Ireland coaches have got selection for the centres right. But tactics are badly wrong for them.

Our centres are all better players than they look right now.

I agree but post WC I think Spence will be right up there if he can carry on his form from last year, Cave too. D'arcy really does look washed up but we had to go with him for the WC because no one else other the Wallace has been tried.

Our midfield is too lightweight though and we were really exposed in the warm ups. In 6-12 months Spence could become the physical presence we need.

Yes, it would be nice to have someone with a bit of static power in the centres because right now defences are just drifting off them.

Notch I'd you think Cave is the better player why isn't he playing at 12 instead of Nevin. I'm not saying I disagree btw I would have thought that if Cave is the better (certainly more experienced) player would it not be best for the team to play him out of position as it where?

As geoff alluded to on the other thread, it looks as though McL and Humph Snr will be adopting a soft approach with Marshall and we can expect to see the 'robust' pairing of Spence and Cave in the centres certainly this side of the rwc.

Whilst i was happy with our centres picked for NZ in hindsight and looking specifically at our lack of penetration in the backs i think Spence could have been useful. He has limitations but he also has great strengths which none of our current centre options have shown.

I agree though that Luke Marshall has more potential than the other youngsters and i will be (slightly) disappointed if he doesnt see significant gametime during the RWC

Also as Stag mentioned above (or intimated at least), our contingency planning for the 13 position has been dire under both of our last coaches

Standulstermen wrote:As geoff alluded to on the other thread, it looks as though McL and Humph Snr will be adopting a soft approach with Marshall and we can expect to see the 'robust' pairing of Spence and Cave in the centres certainly this side of the rwc.

Stand from what I've seen of Marshall over the past year or so he's still not quite ready to be regular starter at senior level. Maybe the injury has held him back a bit but he looks to be behind Spence and Gilroy in terms of his readiness for the top level.

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of Marshall this year but right now I like the look of Spence and Cave in the centres, there's a lot of energy and dynamism there and Spence is able to draw defenders and create space for Cave.

I dont know rodders. He has looked pretty decent any time i have seen him. Bottom line is that you have to trust the coaches at Ulster (who have done a great job thus far) but Marshall looks more equipped to deal with pro rugby (in terms of physicality) than Gilroy for instance.

A lineup of Spence, Cave and Marshall benching and getting decent gametime sounds positive to me

WillyGilly wrote:Notch I'd you think Cave is the better player why isn't he playing at 12 instead of Nevin. I'm not saying I disagree btw I would have thought that if Cave is the better (certainly more experienced) player would it not be best for the team to play him out of position as it where?

No, I think Cave is a better 13 not necessarily a better player. I think Spence is more suited to 12. Cave is really an out and out 13- his biggest strength is when he can make a break he can release the men in outside channels, has fantastic handling and offloading, and he can read a defence and pick an intelligent line of running to break it. Be easier to nullify at 12. Spence may just run hard and straight but he'll set up a platform and a target if needed and as roddrs says, defences are drawn to him.

We looked good in attack on Friday because D'Arcy came into the line as a second playmaker which compensates for the absence of a creative player at 12

Don't rule out Whitten for significant gametime this season- possibly as a 13. He's worked hard on his game.

As regards Spence i think he is slightly more than just a straight hard runner. He has an eye for a gap and a good step.

Standulstermen wrote:
A lineup of Spence, Cave and Marshall benching and getting decent gametime sounds positive to me

That sounds better than positive, that sounds awesome .

I can't wait to see more of Marshall though, he was brilliant against Cardiff last year but he wasn't great in the u-20s WC. Hopefully this will be his breakthrough year but Spence and Cave have a good thing going on right now.

I agree regards Gilroy but I think there is a bit more maturity required to play centre than wing. Gilroy looks ready to give Danielli a real fight for the 11 jersey.

Standulstermen wrote:As regards Spence i think he is slightly more than just a straight hard runner. He has an eye for a gap and a good step.

Oh no, I agree with you, but space is limited at 12 when you are carrying the ball. Spences physicality helps him make yards. His footwork is excellent.

Standulstermen wrote:As regards Spence i think he is slightly more than just a straight hard runner. He has an eye for a gap and a good step.

I concur.

It's great to have these options

Realistically your 12 isn't going to break the line all that much anyway off structured phase play.

Rodders

Marshall was playing his first game since injury in those matches and he was also playing behind a pack that was going backwards at a rate of knots. The options are there but who should our sub backs be considering in 8 spaces there are

2 props
1 hooker
1 lock
1backrow
1 Scrum half


that leaves 2 spots. Do we pick marshall to cover 10 and 12? and Whitten
Jackson comes into the equation
Whitten also
When Payne gets up to speed then D'arcy, Gaston will be in the mix too

Either way at least the options are there!

Standulstermen wrote:
Do we pick marshall to cover 10 and 12? and Whitten
Jackson comes into the equation
Whitten also
When Payne gets up to speed then D'arcy, Gaston will be in the mix too

Either way at least the options are there!

Stand I'd probably like to see Marshall and D'arcy on the bench.

Can Marshall cover the outside backs? You could have Marshall and Jackson and then push Spence or Cave wide either.

I'm not a big fan of Whitten to be honest. He's a solid but pretty limited player and doesn't have the potential of the other players mentioned in my opinion,at least not based on what I've seen of him.

red_stag wrote:Basically because he is in same position as BOD. The current mentality seems to be that theres no point to have a backup 13 as we are just gonna pick BOD. Ireland seem to prefer an approach where is we need drop him we pick a winger like Bowe, Earls, McFadden there instead.

McFadden is not a winger he is a centre, he just plays wing because he is often too good to be left out. He has a lot of experience at both first and second centre for Leinster. He has also played centre for Ireland. This is his preferred position.

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Basically because he is in same position as BOD. The current mentality seems to be that theres no point to have a backup 13 as we are just gonna pick BOD. Ireland seem to prefer an approach where is we need drop him we pick a winger like Bowe, Earls, McFadden there instead.

McFadden is not a winger he is a centre, he just plays wing because he is often too good to be left out. He has a lot of experience at both first and second centre for Leinster. He has also played centre for Ireland. This is his preferred position.

Too good to be left out? Is that why he started the HC Final? He has also played centre for Ireland, not very successfully.

He didn't play the Heineken cup final because Drico and Darce have the centre spots wrapped up and for some reason Fitz was favoured. Think most people would have picked McFadden ahead of Fitz anyday for most of the campaign.

He hasn't had many opportunities at centre for Ireland but his natural position is centre.

I agree with leinsterbaby, McFadden is a centre who plays wing not vice vearsa.

Still jealous of you guys having Marshall, Spence, Trimble and Gilroy though!
Is Darcy going to be IQ one day?

Pete D'arcy is IQ now through a grandparent.

I think he's pretty talented, especially in attack and hopefully he'll kick on and give Ireland more fullback options. He needs to improve his all round game though and will probably find his gametime limited with Payne there but hopefully he'll get a few Ireland 'A' caps sometime soon.