Summer and Autumn tours.

I have been looking at the rugby calendar over the last ten years and have come to the realisation that the Tri Nation teams are at a disadvantage when it comes to home games. Here are the matches played over the last ten years, you will see including Lions tours that there has been 89 matches hosted by the Six Nation countries but only 69 tests by the Tri Nation teams.

South Africa vs Six Nation Teams.
Ireland - 6 test - 2 home - 4 away
England - 12 tests - 2 home - 7 away
France - 8 tests - 4 home - 4 away
Scotland - 9 tests - 3 home - 6 away
Italy - 5 tests - 3 home - 3 away
Wales - 11 tests - 5 home - 6 away
British and Irish Lions – 3 home
Total – 22 home – 30 away

Australia vs Six Nation Teams
Wales – 9 tests – 3 home – 6 away
Scotland – 6 tests – 2 home – 4 away
Italy - 7 tests – 3 home – 4 away
Ireland – 8 tests – 4 home – 4 away
France – 11 tests – 6 home – 5 away
England – 14 tests – 6 home – 7 away
Total – 24 – 30 away

New Zealand vs Six Nations Teams
England – 11 tests – 5 home – 6 away
France – 10 tests – 5 home – 5 away
Ireland – 10 tests – 5 home – 5 away
Italy – 4 tests – 2 home – 2 away
Scotland – 4 test - 0 home – 4 away
British and Irish lions – 3 home
Wales – 11 tests – 3 home – 7 away

Total - 23 home – 29 away

Six Nations team home and away totals.
England – 20 home – 13 away
France – 14 home – 15 away
Ireland – 13 home – 11 away
Italy – 9 home – 8 away
Scotland – 14 home – 5 away
Wales – 19 home – 11 away
British and Irish Lions – 6 away

Tour to South Africa
Ireland hasn’t travelled to SA since 19 June 2004
England hasn’t travelled to SA since 2 June 2007
Scotland hasn’t ravelled to SA since 17 June 2006
Wales hasn’t travelled to SA since 14 June 2008

Tours to New Zealand
England hasn’t travelled to NZ since 21 June 2008
Scotland hasn’t travelled to NZ for over 10 years

Tours to Australia
Wales hasn’t travelled to OZ since 2 June 2007

When i look at non world cup years and non lions tours, there is a distinct format whereby the six Nation teams travel to the Southern Hemisphere for a total of only 3 matches hosted by the Tri Nation teams, but when the Tri Nation teams travel to the northern Hemisphere they each play 4 matches.

To me that make no sense, why is it that we don’t get an extra match in June?

I would guess that as European countries are all small and close together it is easier to tour around several and play 4 matches while youre up there?

Then if a NH travels to say SA, it makes sense to have a 3 test series and its too far away from the other major playing nations where NH teams are likely to be touring for them to come over too?

I think it is because our teams have to face both travelling to the other side of the world, but also back 20 years

It too tough an ask

PS - Only joking

Bathman_in_London wrote:I would guess that as European countries are all small and close together it is easier to tour around several and play 4 matches while youre up there?

Then if a NH travels to say SA, it makes sense to have a 3 test series and its too far away from the other major playing nations where NH teams are likely to be touring for them to come over too?

But Bathman, they don't come for 3 tests, they only come for maximum 2 tests per country.

I think the geographical area in the NH gives a touring opportunity that doesn't exist in the SH.

However it is worth pointing out that in your analysis, SA NZ and Aus already host more games than any other NH nation.

Manky-Flanker wrote:I think the geographical area in the NH gives a touring opportunity that doesn't exist in the SH.

However it is worth pointing out that in your analysis, SA NZ and Aus already host more games than any other NH nation.

True, but remeber it is only 3 hosting vs 6 hosting.

since the Professional era 1996 onwards:

NZ has hosted 84 played away 79
OZ has hosted 94 played away 86
FRA has hosted 91 played away 84
ENG has hosted 89 played away 72
IRE has hosted 84 played away 74
SCO has hosted 87 played away 60
WAL has hosted 98 played away 73
ITA has hosted 72 played away 74
SA has hosted 87 played away 88

looking at that it is the home nations who has the biggest discrepancy.

They've just changed the summer schedule for NH teams to three test tours in the summer. So every Tri-Nations side will have three tests instead of 2 in the summer as well as their 3N fixtures which should address the imbalance to some extent.

However, the timing of these tours is likely to see depleted NH sides due to the much more demanding domestic schedule club sides in the NH face. It's a long tough season and by the time we reach the end of it and the summer tours there might not be too many players left standing.

I heard that we're doing a three test tour at the end of this season to NZ- thats gonna get seriously ugly for us. At the end of a RWC year, if we've any sense at all, we'll leave at least a few big names at home. At least we'll extend their careers, potentially.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I would guess that as European countries are all small and close together it is easier to tour around several and play 4 matches while youre up there?

Then if a NH travels to say SA, it makes sense to have a 3 test series and its too far away from the other major playing nations where NH teams are likely to be touring for them to come over too?

I'd say thats exactly it. There are more major playing countries in the NH and they are all close together whereas the Tri Nation teams are further away from each other. It just wouldn't be feasible for the NH teams to tour SA and NZ/Aus in the same season.

Also the SH teams are better than us so they need 3-4 tests to make the trip worthwhile!

Those new figures aren't games played betweem hemispheres though.

If England hosted 20 games in the last 10 years to the tri-nations how can they have hosted 89 similiar games in the last 15?

roddersm wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I would guess that as European countries are all small and close together it is easier to tour around several and play 4 matches while youre up there?

Then if a NH travels to say SA, it makes sense to have a 3 test series and its too far away from the other major playing nations where NH teams are likely to be touring for them to come over too?

I'd say thats exactly it. There are more major playing countries in the NH and they are all close together whereas the Tri Nation teams are further away from each other. It just wouldn't be feasible for the NH teams to tour SA and NZ/Aus in the same season.

Also the SH teams are better than us so they need 3-4 tests to make the trip worthwhile!

Rodders, if you look at it this way, there is a very simple soution for this.

If the six Nation teams travel south they might as well play 3 test series and we can then reciprocate by doing a three test series there.

That wouldn't work Biltong as it would mean teams visiting SA or Argentina would have to play 3 tests. There would always be a discrepency.

The logistics are just different with the SH teams spanning 3 continents and the NH teams all close together in Northern Europe.

As long as the teams are playing a similar amount of tests then I think things are just fair enough as they are.

That's why I am saying the test series must be in one country.

It looks like its a SH issue rather than NH one into why NH teams do not travel as much as SH in their own respected close seasons.

NH teams tour the SH in the month between the end of the SR season & the beginning of the 3N.
SH players play up to 19 SR matches so the 3N unions will not want to give their players up to 3 extra tests before they hit 6 3N matches as they want their players fresh & as injury free as possible.

Because of this they give the odd 1 test to a NH team probably acting as a 'tune up' game before the start of the 3N.

The AI's work because they run in Nov... a clear 2 months before the start of the NH premier tournament, the 6N. That gives players enough time to refresh.

If you were to have similar goings on in the SH the only place for it would be for it to run straight before the 3N.. i.e. no time for the players to recover.

Its a real shame for NH teams.. on one off test matches they often get thumped whereas in series they tend to improve week in week out and learn from their experiences.
This issue is part of the reason why I believe the gulf between the NH & the SH remains.

Lets say next year England tour SA for a 3 test series... the SA players would be coming off potentially 19 weeks in a row club rugby, then 3 weeks of tests against ENG and then they have maybe 1 or 2 weeks off before emarking on the 6 test new 4N tournament.

That would be 28 matches for some averaging near 1 brutal match per week..... it is a recipe for disaster for the players.

What happened to SA in 09.

3 brutal tests against the lions... tuned them up well for the 3N and they won the tournament. Nice.

However come the end of the 3N those boks were shattered. I went to the WP vs. Bulls Currie Cup SF that year post 3N and the boks playing especially looked knackered.
They then went to lose 4 out of 5 matches in the AI series 1 month later.... it was no coincidence that the boks lost those 4 matches.

I agree that a 3 test series would be a much better idea in terms of the fans interest and to make those end of season/autumn tours more interesting.

The issue might be a financial one. A 3 test series against Samoa is clearly not going to generate the same amount of interest or income as a series against New Zealand for example. Another issue in terms of world development might be that say Tonga wont be able to tour at all as all the slots are taken up already.

biltongbek wrote:That's why I am saying the test series must be in one country.

That would mean that the SH and NH teams would only play each other every 5 seasons or so as each team would only face 1 touring side per season?

roddersm

I think BB is talking about the SH June tests not the AI.... this pretty much happens already in terms of NH sides touring the SH... which is what BB pointed out earlier.

Bathman_in_London

I'm sure if you asked SH fans if they wanted a series victory over Wales for instance ... but were fatigued afterwards and lost a couple of players for the 3N.

or to compete for the 3N title with all their players as fit and fresh as possible?

I think they'd all say the former.

Don't you mean the latter?

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I would guess that as European countries are all small and close together it is easier to tour around several and play 4 matches while youre up there?

Then if a NH travels to say SA, it makes sense to have a 3 test series and its too far away from the other major playing nations where NH teams are likely to be touring for them to come over too?

I'd say thats exactly it. There are more major playing countries in the NH and they are all close together whereas the Tri Nation teams are further away from each other. It just wouldn't be feasible for the NH teams to tour SA and NZ/Aus in the same season.

Also the SH teams are better than us so they need 3-4 tests to make the trip worthwhile!

Rodders, if you look at it this way, there is a very simple soution for this.

If the six Nation teams travel south they might as well play 3 test series and we can then reciprocate by doing a three test series there.

Thats basically how its going to work from next year rodders, except the SH sides will play different nations in their tour.

The NH nations will only be playing in one country; a full three test series. For instance, Wales and Australia will be contesting a three test series in 2012. I've heard Ireland are facing the All Blacks in a three test series; someone else will be touring Argentina and South Africa. Japan, Pacific Islands etc are also involved.

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:That's why I am saying the test series must be in one country.

That would mean that the SH and NH teams would only play each other every 5 seasons or so as each team would only face 1 touring side per season?

Thats a good thing for me. Hard to get excited about facing the same teams every year.

OK sorry didn't realise that. Thats makes sense.

Biltong, from memory only 3 AIs per country get organised by the IRB, the "extra" game gets organised between the nations, which generally involves the NH union concerned paying the SH one a sizeable appearance fee. It's all about the money.

I'm guessing even with the return of tours there will still be one-off AIs organised

Manky-Flanker

yes... good spot my friend.

The problem with 3 test tours is it discriminates against the small nations. The Sh's only have room for 3 tests max between the end of the s15 and beginning of the 3N's. Lets assume FR go to NZ, IRE to Aus, Eng to SA and WAL to ARG where would that leave SCO, ITA and the Pacific nations? Same story applies during the AI's. Better off to share them around playing each other once and giving the PI's, Canada etc a shot.

No it shouldn't disadvantage anyone, how often do the tier one nations play against the other teams at the moment?

Under the current dispensation for the last 10 years.

NZ played 5 tests vs pacific island nations
SA played 2 tests vs pacific island nations
OZ played 5 tests vs pacific island nations.

That is 12 tests in total in ten years, pathetic if you ask me.


Take a non Lions or RWc year.

As from next year we know there are 4 sides in the SH competing

So that is six tests, the same as what it currently is.

We normally play 3 tests before that against different nations.

Then 4 tests at the end of the year.

That is 13 tests.

It can remain thesame as long as the IRB wakes up and lay down the law.

There must be specific tour test windows.

June for the NH to come south and November the SH teams to go north.

You lay a three test series in one country, it would be more exciting to see a test series vs a nation every 5 years, than these one off hit and wonders where teams send unmotivated squads to compete the other side of the equator.

This way teams will be motivated because it is their only opportunity outside a world cup to meet the other teams and establish dominance. Just look at the hype the Lions series creates.

Instead of us playing 4 tests in november in europe, we play a 1 off test against a pacific island nation, there are 4 nations, SA, NZ, OZ and ARG, to play Japan, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga once a year every year.

The club/super rugby etc, must fit in around that. It is not such a difficult challenge to overcome.

This way we will double the exposure for thses Pacific nations, get our 3 test series going and have our four or six nation competitions.

Think about it this way, once in a decade Ireland for example will play a three test series against SA, the Lions come every 12 years, and the fans and players all look forward to it.

The current format is flawed and irregular.

Just look at those figures I have shown.

England have played 37 tests against SH nations where as Scotland have played 19, all in the same timespan.

No wonder the Scots struggle financially to sustain their development, they get half the bloody games.

Taking the AI's as an example they are played 3 out of 4 years with one off for the RWC. So over an 8 year span there will be 6 autumn series and 2 world cups. The 4 SH's over that 6 year span could play a 3 test series agains each of the 6N's countries. But that would leave each 6N country with 2 years of AI's in the cycle where they play no SH at all. That is a revenue black hole they will never accept.

Islingtonv2 wrote:Taking the AI's as an example they are played 3 out of 4 years with one off for the RWC. So over an 8 year span there will be 6 autumn series and 2 world cups. The 4 SH's over that 6 year span could play a 3 test series agains each of the 6N's countries. But that would leave each 6N country with 2 years of AI's in the cycle where they play no SH at all. That is a revenue black hole they will never accept.

That can be overcome.

Option one.

Lets say this is the scenario in any given year,

France vs SA
England vs OZ
Ireland vs NZ
Wales vs ARG

The two remaining countries can plau each other in a three test series.

OR

They can host the winners of the pacific nation caup and the runners up.

Either of these two options will still bring in moeny at the gates.

Especially seeing that the pacific nations on my model has a warm up game and exposure to the SH four nations just before the tour.

biltongbek wrote:

Islingtonv2 wrote:Taking the AI's as an example they are played 3 out of 4 years with one off for the RWC. So over an 8 year span there will be 6 autumn series and 2 world cups. The 4 SH's over that 6 year span could play a 3 test series agains each of the 6N's countries. But that would leave each 6N country with 2 years of AI's in the cycle where they play no SH at all. That is a revenue black hole they will never accept.

That can be overcome.

Option one.

Lets say this is the scenario in any given year,

France vs SA
England vs OZ
Ireland vs NZ
Wales vs ARG

The two remaining countries can plau each other in a three test series.

OR

They can host the winners of the pacific nation caup and the runners up.

Either of these two options will still bring in moeny at the gates.

Especially seeing that the pacific nations on my model has a warm up game and exposure to the SH four nations just before the tour.

I'm not against the idea, i just don't think it will happen. England Samoa last autumn was a virtual sell out yet the RFU would have made about 50% of the revenue from that game as they did against NZ based on the ticket prices and corporate deals i saw. Sky wouldn't be too pleased either if no marque name was visiting for potentially 2 years.

I don't think it will happen either, but you know what, it is time that the Media moguls don't dictate and the IRB and all the members explain that they need to develop the sport, and this is how the packages will be sold, end of story.

The Media moguls have a choice they either accpet the whole package as it is presented, or another media freak will buy the broadcasting rights.

Its the members of the IRB that have gotten into bed with the media moguls though. The RFU are particularly culpable in this regard but are by no means the only ones.

On the other hand the money has helped the RFU develop the game nationally and internationally (setting up the churchill cup etc).

You are correct, but it is the meek stand that the Unions have taken by being led around the nose, by some socalled "research" that tell them what people want.

I have never been asked what I want, and don't know of any one that has been asked.

Let us say as an example the RFu says to whichever media company, this is our calender for the next four years.

A world cup tournament

4 six nations tournaments with 10 home games each nation twice during this period,

We will host SA, NZ and OZ once each for a three test series, and host the pacific nation champions once for a three test series..

What on earht can be wroing with that package?

absolutely nothing wrong with that until Mr Sky man says "hey, drop the PI series and play the 3N's each again and we'll give you an extra £10m for the package" to which Mr RFU man says "where shall i bend over?"

yeah,