Fired up Ireland ready to throw off the Shackles

by Gibson Mon 05 Sep 2011, 14:51

First topic message reminder :

So, we were holding back. Saving it for NZ. Not declaring our full hand. Like the Saffers. Hmmmmm. I hope so. It would make some sense.
Got to love Donnacha. It's hard not to.

"Even this morning, he (Kidney) was geared around getting results. People might say that's boring enough, but it's the little things that might lead to three points. Good drills as well, new ideas, and it's good that we've got here now and they've opened the bag a bit more. There's new plans, there's new line-outs, new moves, we haven't changed calls, just expanded them a bit."

"I didn't know at the time, but we were a little bit restricted in the warm-up games because they didn't want to show their hand. So now it's about getting up to speed for ourselves and then concentrating on America, which will be massive," added O'Callaghan.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/firedup-ireland-ready-to-remove-shackles-2866556.html

With players who have won multiple HC's, a SLAM and who represented the Lions... ROG, POC, DOC, BOD, Sexton, Heaslip, Flannery, Cullen, SOB, Kearney, Bowe, Reddan et al - we have the nucleus of a winning 22. Players who know how to win and close out huge games in the HC. This combined experience and nous, must be brought to bear. Those players must take this responsibility. Its not just the coaching staff.

O' Driscoll, O'' Connell and O'Gara, are not going to leave anything behind them in this one. If they perform and lead - and they will - the rest will follow. That is the biggest positive I can take going into it.

Do we Believe? Phooking right we do. No more negativity. Your Country Needs You.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYHlttt--tY

by Feckless Rogue Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:19

POC and BOD are the only "irreplaceable" players. I have that in inverted comma's because of course they will be replaced. It's just that inspirational players like that don't come along that often and it's unlikely we'll have a centre or a lock that good for a long time..

But our inspiration used to come from our hooker. Wood was our talisman. I was worried about his loss when he retired. But up stepped BOD to take on his talisman role. When BOD retires we won't have another great leader at 13. But hopefully we can get a good 13 (and hopefully he won't be expected to live up to BOD).

Our leadership can come from elsewhere. Look at the backrow we have. And the incredible quality of the young backrowers Leinster have produced. A player like SOB or Heaslip or Ruddock could respond superbly to being given the captaincy in the future and take on the role BOD plays. In fact BOD's role at Leinster has already diminished. He gave up the captaincy years ago and it was Sexton, not him, who inspired the comeback in the HEC final.

My main worry is loosing POC. The grunt of the second row is so important. And some of the best captain's of recent years have been in the tight five. Smit, Johnson, Eales etc. Luckily he'll be around for another few years. I'd say he'll go on the next Lions tour. Lawes and Gray are great young locks. But you can't beat a grizzled battle hardened veteran in the second row. POC will be harder to replace than BOD.

by Portnoy Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:22

Gibson wrote:I totally agree on the mix Portnoy. Its not enough to just have great individual players. Its how they meld and enhance the rest of the team. That can take years to find, nourish and exploit.

For that we need another manager I feel. But this is the Positive Thread. No negativity.

I WANT IRELAND TO WIN THE WORLD CUP

king

and

by **rodders** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:24

Portnoy wrote:I WANT IRELAND TO WIN THE WORLD CUP

and

+1

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:27

Feckless Rogue wrote:POC and BOD are the only "irreplaceable" players. I have that in inverted comma's because of course they will be replaced. It's just that inspirational players like that don't come along that often and it's unlikely we'll have a centre or a lock that good for a long time..

But our inspiration used to come from our hooker. Wood was our talisman. I was worried about his loss when he retired. But up stepped BOD to take on his talisman role. When BOD retires we won't have another great leader at 13. But hopefully we can get a good 13 (and hopefully he won't be expected to live up to BOD).

Our leadership can come from elsewhere. Look at the backrow we have. And the incredible quality of the young backrowers Leinster have produced. A player like SOB or Heaslip or Ruddock could respond superbly to being given the captaincy in the future and take on the role BOD plays. In fact BOD's role at Leinster has already diminished. He gave up the captaincy years ago and it was Sexton, not him, who inspired the comeback in the HEC final.

My main worry is loosing POC. The grunt of the second row is so important. And some of the best captain's of recent years have been in the tight five. Smit, Johnson, Eales etc. Luckily he'll be around for another few years. I'd say he'll go on the next Lions tour. Lawes and Gray are great young locks. But you can't beat a grizzled battle hardened veteran in the second row. POC will be harder to replace than BOD.

Feckless, I always find your posts spot on and most all of that was true. But, I cant agree with that last statement. BOD gives us so much more. He won us the SLAM. Dragged us over the line. Dragged Leinster to their 1st HC - aided by Rocky. Aided closely by POC for the SLAM. And Sexton for the last HC. In my opinion.

He is the best and most influential player, ever to wear an Irish rugby shirt. When he retires, I will change my name.

To Beyonce.

by **rodders** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:37

I agree Gibson, BOD is irreplaceable, even O'Connell admits everyone else has piggybacked of his self belief. BOD is the greatest but I think Feckless has a good point about the lack of a tight 5 talisman coming through.

Touhy, Ryan, Nagle etc. are all very good players but none have the presence of O'Connell or to a lesser extent Cullen.

We have a history of producing Lions calibre 2nd rows but the well seems to have run dry right now and O'Connell will be a massive loss when he hangs up his boots unless someone else steps up to the plate in the interim.

by red_stag Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:38

BOD won the 2009 Grand Slam for us. I agree him and Paulie will be the ones hardest to replace. But I dont see us having same problems as England did after 2003

by **rodders** Wed 07 Sep 2011, 18:46

Me neither Stag. We are already well into the rebuilding process and our domestic infrastructure is completely different to Englands. Our whole system is geared around the national side so the successors to our older players are constantly being identified and groomed.

The lack of tight 5 forwards coming through is a bit worrying but I've never seen so many exciting backs in Ireland and most of our senior squad are still in their prime.

by Sin é Wed 07 Sep 2011, 19:05

Sean O'Brien & Cian Healy are both very young - both of them could well step up to be leaders in the tight 5. I'm also impressed with Conor Murray's quiet confidence. For one so young he is as cool as a cucumber. Reminds me of BOD a bit when he came on the scene first, personality wise. I also think Rob Kearney has good leadership qualities.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 07 Sep 2011, 19:14

Gibson,

Yeah he did win us the Slam in '09. He was brilliant and inspirational. If you took him out we would have lost to Wales and England and possibly France. He was the difference, and he dragged us to the Slam. He's my favourite player ever. I haven't seen any player have such a huge positive influence on their team for such a sustained period of time. He helped transform Irish rugby. But he played a lesser role in the HEC in '11. SOB won loads of Man of the Match awards. Sexton led us to victory in the final.

At his peak O'Driscoll he was untouchable. But now there are younger outside backs in other nations who are faster, more powerful and more dangerous. Soon there'll be an Irish rival who will be more dangerous than him as he fades. Unfortunately BOD ages like everyone else. But we have some top quality backs. Someone will slot into the 13 jersey and the inspirational leadership will have to come from elsewhere. We can still have a quality, well functioning back line.

We don't have as much class in the tight five. POC raises the level of the whole pack. In terms of playing ability he is still around his peak. Take POC out and our pack is lost at sea. Our pack was beaten badly by Scotland, France and South Africa in 2010. In that situation, BOD can try and work miracles himself, but he can't stop the pack getting beaten up. He can't fix the lineout or the scrum. POC can. That's why I think we'll miss him more.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 19:24

Yeah Sin.
Conor Murray looks de biz. God knows we need him to continue his meteoric rise. Yeah, he reminds me of BOD when he was young. So laid back and unassuming. So skilled and nonchelant about it all. Want to see him play on Sunday. I think Jones is made from the same cloth. We need that inner self-belief, all over the shop, to hit the next level.

Next Captain? I've no idea. Ideally, Id love a team of Captains. Leaders, confident enough, to make those key decisions at the right time. That's what separates the ABs, Aussies and Saffers from the rest imo.

I believe Kidney is cultivating that with Ireland. Entrusting in his players to do it on the field. Its the only way to the Top.

by Gibson Wed 07 Sep 2011, 19:37

Feckless. 2 World Class leaders in their positions. One for the Backs. One for the Forwards. Yes. guinness

If ROG was younger, Id make him captain. No nonsense. Straight-talking. No BS. He'd make a great Coach imo.

Remember...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS5rpt70L64

I want to see that Kidney smile again in October.

by Portnoy Wed 07 Sep 2011, 21:45

SOB is an outstanding talent and will surely become World player of the year some time soon.

The front five will look increasingly ordinary over the next couple of years I think.

There's a lack of class at nine. Sexton is very good.

D'Arcy's past it and BOD will soon to have to be replaced.

There isn't a magic spare parts shop in Ireland where the new bits can just be fetched in off the shelf is there?

But I agree with Staggy "But I dont see us having same problems as England did after 2003" and rodders "We are already well into the rebuilding process and our domestic infrastructure is completely different to Englands. Our whole system is geared around the national side so the successors to our older players are constantly being identified and groomed."

In many ways small is beautiful. But regrettably you can't build a team based on outstanding back row and a good back three. There are too many missing vertebrae in the spine.

by Gibson Thu 08 Sep 2011, 02:27

Portnoy wrote:SOB is an outstanding talent and will surely become World player of the year some time soon.

The front five will look increasingly ordinary over the next couple of years I think.

There's a lack of class at nine. Sexton is very good.

D'Arcy's past it and BOD will soon to have to be replaced.

There isn't a magic spare parts shop in Ireland where the new bits can just be fetched in off the shelf is there?

But I agree with Staggy "But I dont see us having same problems as England did after 2003" and rodders "We are already well into the rebuilding process and our domestic infrastructure is completely different to Englands. Our whole system is geared around the national side so the successors to our older players are constantly being identified and groomed."

In many ways small is beautiful. But regrettably you can't build a team based on outstanding back row and a good back three. There are too many missing vertebrae in the spine.

He's right you know. Murray, maybe the 9 to mix with Sexton and get the vast amount of back 3 options going. Back 3 and half-backs covered - for now. But, ROG needs to be replaced soon. Competiton for centres as yet - unknown. Backrow sorted. 2nd Row? Needs a miracle. Front Row also. Need credible backup. Court and Buckley must be rid of/replaced - as soon as is feasibly possible.Well below International average. And no one - as yet, to replace DOC, POC or Cullen. Ryan, the best of a bad lot.

We'll be grand. Stay positive.

by caoimhincentre Thu 08 Sep 2011, 08:59

There are players coming through in all those worring positions. In the centre we have players like Marshall, O'Malley, Spence even McFadden,

Prop hagan archer McGrath and if i am right there is a prospect in ulster too but the name escapes me.

Second Row there is Holland, Nagle, Tohy.

Never mind Portney says, he has no knowledge of irish rugby and just repeats what he hears in the english media.

by **rodders** Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:18

You make some valid points Portnoy. There is no doubt there will be some ups and downs as we rebuild, in fact there already has been.

As you have said our back 3 and back row are already in place for the foreseable future. I would argue that our half backs are too although ROG will need to be replaced in the near future. Ian Keatley at Munster looks to be the next in line and further on the horizon is Paddy Jackson at Ulster. The 3 scrum halves in our WC squad are 28, 31 and 22(?) respectively with TOL(28) left out. Conor Murray could be the best 9 we've had in a long time.

D'arcy is looking a shadow of his old self although he did show some good form at Leinster this year. BOD has committed to playing until 2013 and has been in excellent form for a lot of this season and the 3rd man Paddy Wallace is also 30+. In the medium term Keith Earls, Fergus McFadden and even Luke Fitzgerald look to be the midfield cover. Longer term Luke Marshall and Nevin Spence are as good a talents as I've seen in Ireland and there's Ulsters Darren Cave and Leinsters Eoin O'Malley too amongst others so the midfield could be our most competitive area over the next decade.

The front 5 is a worry. There are some exciting players coming through like Dan Touhy, Ian Nagle, Strauss, Paddy McAllister etc. but there are a worrying lack of TH props and 2nd rows and that is something that could give us big problems.

That said most of current pack will be around for a few seasons yet so hopefully a few more players will emerge in the interim. All in all the future looks bright for Irish rugby even after POC and BOD are gone.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:22

Second row is a problem position though. Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Andrew Browne and Ian Nagle are the guys who need all the gametime they can get over next 2 seasons.

Taking an XV of players who haven't made the RWC squad but could offer something in the future.

01 Paddy McAllister

02 Mike Sherry

03 Jamie Hagan

04 Ian Nagle

05 Dan Tuohy

06 Rhys Ruddock

07 Dominic Ryan

08 Peter O'Mahony

09 Paul O'Donoghue

10 Ian Keatley

11 Luke Fitzgerald

12 Luke Marshall

13 Nevin Spence

14 Craig Gilroy

15 Felix Jones

by Boyne Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:22

There are too many missing vertebrae in the spine.

Very clever analogy and one I would agree 100% with.

Front row: Healy and Strauss can and will be world class. If Hagen steps up we are sorted.
2nd Row: Ze big problem
Back Row: World Class
1/2 Backs: Potentially world class. Sexton anyway. Promise from Murray but too soon to tell.
Centers: We'll be fine.
Back 3: Potentially world class.

The 2nd row is the spine and we (or nobody else for that matter) will ever win anything with a 2nd row which can't compete at the highest level- no matter who surrounds them.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:23

Project players Rodney Ah You and Richard Strauss are 2 front row options in a year or two also.

by Boyne Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:25

Can't believe his name is Ah You. What does his missus say when he buys her flowers?

Doh

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:26

Thats a very personal question Boyne Fired up Ireland ready to throw off the Shackles - Page 4 230346397

by Mickado Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:28

Boyne wrote:Can't believe his name is Ah You. What does his missus say when he buys her flowers?

"Oh you Ah You"?

The only position i think we need to be worried about is lock.

by Boyne Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:28

Stag! Ah you!!!

Wink

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:33

Agree with Mick re: lock.

But you know what we used our locks so much in the past. Kick into corners, pressure the lineout, score in the corner. The age old Irish game plan based on O'Garas longevity and the conveyour belt of Galwey, O'Kelly, O'Callaghan, O'Connell.

We have Sexton and Keatley - two boys who like to run. Maybe we'll find another way to use our locks. Maybe we'll see a surprise like Robbie Diack at second row for Ireland - stranger things have happened or else see more of Connacht pairing Mike McCarthy and Andrew Browne. Steven Sykes is another project.

(BTW it would gall me to see 3 project players in our tight 5) Sad

by caoimhincentre Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:41

Stag,
Total agree. to be honest i'm total against project players.

by **rodders** Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:44

red_stag wrote:Second row is a problem position though. Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Andrew Browne and Ian Nagle are the guys who need all the gametime they can get over next 2 seasons.

Stag Dan Touhy had one of the best games of his career last weekend and Ian Nagle always looks classy but there's no one really jumping out in the tight 5.

It's not just a matter of grooming these guys we need to see them really hammering on the international door and trying to rip the shirt of the senior guys backs.

In my opinion too many of the younger guys are content to be understudies for province and country and not enough are really putting their hands up, at least not in the pack, the way SOB, Sexton and Murray have done.

If Ryan and Touhy don't send DOC and Cullen to the retirement home this season then we have problems on the horizon. Like wise McFadden and Spence with D'arcy and Wallace.

If the senior guys respond to the gauntlet being thrown down then all the better but there's a couple of guys getting picked on reputation right now because a serious challenge isn't coming from the younger generation.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:45

As am I. I can accept players qualifying on residency - e.g. can't see the fuss about Tuilagi or Hartley etc.

But I don't like idea of IRFU scouting for them.

by caoimhincentre Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:47

judging from the IRFU site training pic the pack for USA will be court, best, Ross, POC, DOC, Jennings, Heaslip and Ferris

by caoimhincentre Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:48

in fairness to Hartley and Tuilagi, hartleys mother is english and has been living in UK since 16 i think and as far as i am aware Tuilagi has spent most of his life in england.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:50

[quote="roddersm"]

red_stag wrote:In my opinion too many of the younger guys are content to be understudies for province and country and not enough are really putting their hands up, at least not in the pack, the way SOB, Sexton and Murray have done.

Donnacha Ryan is the best example of this I can think of. Was happy to be 4th choice for Munster for years. He's 27 now and can he emerge as a late bloomer and finally become first choice. I criticised him for this recently to someone who knows him saying he should have moved to Leinster when he was younger. They pointed out that Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh both moved to Leinster to try and make it in what was a weaker pack at the time. Both of them failed to step up and Ryan saw Munster as a safe choice.

I agree though we need guys sticking the hand up. McAllister at Ulster is the only guy I can think of. Stephen Archer may end up first choice at Munster fairly soon as well though.

by **rodders** Thu 08 Sep 2011, 09:53

caoimhincentre wrote:judging from the IRFU site training pic the pack for USA will be court, best, Ross, POC, DOC, Jennings, Heaslip and Ferris

Thats a good looking pack and it's good to see Jennings get a chance. I'm surprised that we're risking Mike Ross ahead of the Australia game but I suppose we need to make sure of the result here.

Resting SOB is a good idea too and it's good that we have a few very strong backrow combinations to choose from even with David Wallace out.

by Mickado Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:04

We might well find a new way to use our locks Stag but if we have to remain strong in the setpeice. Our scrum isn’t good enough (yet) to allow us to not have an excellently functioning lineout. And even though we’re looking fairly good in the front row I don’t see anyone coming through being the type of player that’s going to allow us to dominate the scrum.

by Rava Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:12

I see Healey won't make the team against USA. We will have to play either Court or Buckley.

Stag, why Keatley now? Is this because he has left Connacht. I don't recall you championing him in the past!

by MMC Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:14

Mickado wrote:We might well find a new way to use our locks Stag but if we have to remain strong in the setpeice. Our scrum isn’t good enough (yet) to allow us to not have an excellently functioning lineout. And even though we’re looking fairly good in the front row I don’t see anyone coming through being the type of player that’s going to allow us to dominate the scrum.

I honestly believe that Mike Sherry will prove to be the answer to that problem. For me, he's one that's really putting his hand up. He's the best scrummaging hooker in Munster, has been remarkably cool-headed in the lineout and is a complete animal around the park. His discipline sets him apart from Varley and to a lesser extent Flannery too, he's been excellent in that regard.

Isn't it typically Irish to be talking about the potential problems Ireland will face in the future when the World Cup is less than 24 hours away?? Rolling Eyes

So on that note, here's an interesting article by Hugh Farrelly this morning

Murray gets call
Munster rookie set to start World Cup opener -- one month after making his Ireland debut
By Hugh Farrelly, in New Plymouth

Thursday September 08 2011
DECLAN KIDNEY is poised to unleash the heavy artillery when he names his team tomorrow to take on the US Eagles in Sunday's World Cup opener, but Ireland's least experienced player is ready to step up alongside the front-liners.
Conor Murray won his first cap last month with an impressive cameo off the bench against France in Bordeaux, and selection for Ireland's opening Pool C encounter would complete a remarkable rise -- and put him in a strong position to retain his place for the critical showdown with Australia the following week.
Cian Healy's eye socket injury and late arrival in New Zealand means Tom Court is set to be named at loose-head prop, with Rory Best and Mike Ross likely to complete the front-row. Sean O'Brien has made a strong recovery from a knee injury, but Kidney may opt for Shane Jennings at open-side, while Stephen Ferris and Jamie Heaslip need game time next to him in the back-row.
If Kidney goes with his established second-row of Donncha O'Callaghan and Paul O'Connell, Ireland will have a pack capable of dominating and providing possession for a backline which could be masterminded by Jonathan Sexton at out-half.
Brian O'Driscoll is expected to lead the side after missing the final warm-up defeat to England but, with Gordon D'Arcy arriving late after picking up a calf strain last week, the question of who wears the No 12 jersey is less clear.
Tommy Bowe will be anxious to continue at right-wing after only playing the final warm-up match following his foot injury, while Andrew Trimble is in pole position for left-wing. Geordan Murphy is the man in possession at No 15, although Rob Kearney has been back training fully following his groin problem.
- Hugh Farrelly, in New Plymouth
Irish Independent

That really would be a meteoric rise. It shows that out of nowhere a player can come to prominence. Yes, Murray has been considered a prospect down here for the last 2-3 years, but 6 months ago no-one saw him going to the world cup, let alone starting the first game. This is despite all 5 scrumhalfs all being fit. Remarkable.

Ireland will be grand. zen

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:19

Rava wrote:I see Healey won't make the team against USA. We will have to play either Court or Buckley.

Stag, why Keatley now? Is this because he has left Connacht. I don't recall you championing him in the past!

Firstly O'Gara was younger in the past, Keatley was inexperienced in the past, he is already capped by Ireland, he is a long term prospect unlike say Humphreys and yes at Munster he is playing in a backline with Conor Murray, Felix Jones and Keith Earls.

I wouldn't have him in the match day squad or anything for 2012 Six Nations. Just saying he is next best option.

by Mickado Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:21

Ok, here’s my pop at the starting XV for Sunday:

Court – Best – Ross
Ryan – POC
Leamy – Heaslip – Jennings
Murray – Sexton
Earls – Wallace – O’Driscoll – Bowe
Kearney

MMC, I nominate you to start the thread thumbsup

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:23

Agree MMC to start thread.

by Sin é Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:23

red_stag wrote:

Donnacha Ryan is the best example of this I can think of. Was happy to be 4th choice for Munster for years. He's 27 now and can he emerge as a late bloomer and finally become first choice. I criticised him for this recently to someone who knows him saying he should have moved to Leinster when he was younger. They pointed out that Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh both moved to Leinster to try and make it in what was a weaker pack at the time. Both of them failed to step up and Ryan saw Munster as a safe choice.

Donnacha Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18 (same as the Bull). A Shannon coach spotted him playing GAA. It would also seem that Michael Cheika spotted him playing for Shannon when checking out Trevor Hogan and wanted him to come to Leinster. I wouldn't rule out a few more conversions at that stage by gaa players who are too big/just not mobile enough to play gaa to turn up.

I think it very easy to say to players you should have moved - but you have to remember that all these guys have families etc here and by moving away at this stage, there is every chance they will never come back home. For instance, Geordan Murphy will probably settle down in Leicester when he retires. Eoin Reddan has admitted he regrets leaving Munster in the first place. I bet Sean Cronin regrets it now as well when he sees how much gametime Varley has got in the last year or so.

Felix Jones & Ian Keatley might in the future have similar regrets depending on how things pan out in Leinster.

by **rodders** Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:27

MMC wrote:
Isn't it typically Irish to be talking about the potential problems Ireland will face in the future when the World Cup is less than 24 hours away??

There are no "problems" only "challenges" to be overcome Wink

.

Murray and Sexton is a positive selection at 9 as is Jennings at 7 but I wonder does that mean Kidney sees Reddan and ROG as his starting halfback combo for Australia?

One match at a time though and I can't wait for sunday guinness

by MMC Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:27

Done.

https://www.606v2.com/t13390-ireland-vs-usa-discussion-thread

Everyone take a deep breath. We've been waiting for 4 years for this...

by Rava Thu 08 Sep 2011, 10:31

[/quote]

Firstly O'Gara was younger in the past, Keatley was inexperienced in the past, he is already capped by Ireland, he is a long term prospect unlike say Humphreys and yes at Munster he is playing in a backline with Conor Murray, Felix Jones and Keith Earls.

I wouldn't have him in the match day squad or anything for 2012 Six Nations. Just saying he is next best option.[/quote]

I think Messrs Madigan, Jackson and McKinney might have something to say about that

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 11:08

Rava, to be fair he's comfortably ahead of Jackson, Madigan and McKinney.

They are all 3rd choice at least for their province. None of them are capped or have played for Wolfhounds to my knowledge. They all lack experience. Keatley is currently Munsters first choice, and will still see gametime when ROG is back. He has several years experience as first choice 10 in Magners League and has both Irish Wolfhounds and Ireland Senior caps.

Madigan, McKinny and Jackson have a lot of catching up to do.

by Rava Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:11

My point was I don't recollect you rating Keatley so highly when he was with Connacht. It is also very convenient to suggest he is Munsters current first choice 10 after one game. That is a bit like saying Ian Whitten is Ulsters first choice wing.

Conor Murray is on the verge of playing for Ireland in the World Cup, and rightly so. But to use your argument, he should not be ahead of Paul Marshall or Paul O'Donaghue who have both more experience for their provinces.

by caoimhincentre Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:15

Rava you are talking Poo there.

Keatley has 3 years experience starting for Connacht. He has moved to munster where he is clearly second choice to ROG.

As well as this he has played Ireland A.

The players you mentioned are not even starters at the province and in some cases arent even 2nd choices.

Keatley is clearly ahead of them all.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:18

Rava - when he was at Connacht we had O'Gara on his own and Sexton was his back up. Keatley and others weren't worth considering. Now we need to start finding Sextons backup and right now - Keatley is our best option compared to those mentioned. The only player I'd have on a par or more accurately ahead of him is Ian Humphreys.

As for saying that Whitten is first choice wing I don't see a similar comparison. We sold Warwick off to France - who has always been our first choice backup at 10. Keatley has replaced him and with O'Gara gone for quite a while is our first choice.

I wouldn;t also say that Marshall or O'Donoghue have more experience for their provinces. Murray has played in knockout European competition and was able to start for Munster ahead of a full fit Stringer and O'Leary in the Magners playoffs too. Marshall may have more experience but its at a lower level and he is still not first choice for his team.

Obviously I can't predict future just base opinions on logic. To me its logical that Keatley is best placed to replaced ROG internationally.

by Rava Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:23

I'm just trying to keep this going Stag Very Happy

. I am sure Keatley will get his chance and good luck to him. He's young enough and will get lots of Magners/HEC action this year. I will be following his progress closely.
What I do want to see is the others I mentioned getting similar experience over the next couple of seasons and giving our coaches some alternatives.

Anyway when did logic play any part in a good discussion Wink

by **rodders** Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:25

red_stag wrote:

Obviously I can't predict future just base opinions on logic. To me its logical that Keatley is best placed to replaced ROG internationally.

I disagree. Niall O'Connor has more HEC experience and if he establishes himself at Connacht would be ahead of Keatley.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:27

No probs Rava pal. IMO Leinster didn't need to bring in Berquist. Ok yes McKinley retired so it worked out but Madigan needs game time. He played a few HEC games and Berquist arrival has set that back now. Not happy.

I'm interested to see Jackson v McKinney battling it out in Ulster. I know Jackson has his fans but I've always preferred McKinney.

by red_stag Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:28

roddersm wrote:
red_stag wrote:

Obviously I can't predict future just base opinions on logic. To me its logical that Keatley is best placed to replaced ROG internationally.

I disagree. Niall O'Connor has more HEC experience and if he establishes himself at Connacht would be ahead of Keatley.

I'm calling your bluff. If you want I can delve into old 606 achives and find out what Ulster fans really think about NOC Smile

by Rava Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:32

Stag at the minute I'm with you on the Jackson/McKinney battle but that is probably because Ulster have mollycoddled Jackson up to now.
Piennaar and Wallace were taking too much responsibility in his games last season. I hope he can assert himself and then we should see him shine a bit more.

I'm calling your bluff. If you want I can delve into old 606 achives and find out what Ulster fans really think about NOC laughing

by Gibson Thu 08 Sep 2011, 12:41

red_stag wrote:No probs Rava pal. IMO Leinster didn't need to bring in Berquist. Ok yes McKinley retired so it worked out but Madigan needs game time. He played a few HEC games and Berquist arrival has set that back now. Not happy.

I'm interested to see Jackson v McKinney battling it out in Ulster. I know Jackson has his fans but I've always preferred McKinney.

Agree that precedence should be given to Irish born players - where they are up to it. Madigan should be getting at least half-games to blood him. I think we need Berquist, in the meantime, to help his development though.

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