Inconvenient truth - Boxing will miss the Klits!!

First topic message reminder :

Whilst I think having two brothers holding the greatest prize in sports simultaneously cheapens Boxing....Makes the greatest prize seem almost easy to win........Bit like the williams sisters in tennis....(Great achievements like conquering Everest etc should ideally be for those with great heart, ambition and talent.._

One has to admit that once these guys go there is nothing left!!! No charisma, no real talent (not that these guys had much)....

In fairness they have brought dignity to the sport and whilst they haven't transcended they have brought a modicum of skill and prestige to the game..

Worry for Boxing is.. it was deteriorating with these guys in charge except for the brief Haye episode which ended in a shambles!!!

What the hell is it going to be like after they have gone....???

My American bros aren't up to it and Price and Fury are lacking in either talent or charisma...

Boxing is synergesic if the heavies are exciting it reaches down to the lower weights and garners interest...good for the sport!!

Inconvenient truth is we'll miss the Klits........enjoy them while they are here I suppose!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't see that happening as Vitali for example is intrinsically linked to losing to Lewis so he will always be the one who gets mentioned not the K bros.

As much as you hate the thought, Wladimir wont be forgotten overnight.

Think so Ghosty.....Think the majority thought he was unlucky against Lewis (hence no rematch) and the fight did him more good than bad in world terms..

andygf wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I like the Parking lot even if Joni doesn't!!!

It would actually ease congestion in paradise, making it even easier to park, something Joni singularly fails to point out with her very blinkered view of the world.

Still nice song though, now one of the biggest stadium bands in the world RE............O Speedwagon

rowley wrote:Ghosty was just making the point it was said about Lewis, whilst he did have some exciting moments he could be a very cautious fighter when the mood took, and outside of the UK am fairly certain few if any thought they would mourn his exit. Could well find ourself in the same situation, am not arguing anyone is going to miss watching him in action but not impossible we will miss the clarity they bring to the top of the division

That was in comparison to the other fighters who were around which is a big big difference to the situation now, he was very highly rated amongst those in the know in America and was never dropped by HBO, as you know I hate seeing such a great fighter compared to the brothers, my pet gripe.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think so Ghosty.....Think the majority thought he was unlucky against Lewis (hence no rematch) and the fight did him more good than bad in world terms..

However, his defining fight is still a losing effort

DAVE667 wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty was just making the point it was said about Lewis, whilst he did have some exciting moments he could be a very cautious fighter when the mood took, and outside of the UK am fairly certain few if any thought they would mourn his exit. Could well find ourself in the same situation, am not arguing anyone is going to miss watching him in action but not impossible we will miss the clarity they bring to the top of the division

Haven't the WBA already taken the title off Wlad, making him their "super" champion with Povetkin now claiming a portion of the crown? Doesn't appear to be much clarity there and, as for your man in the street, I'd wager some are still labouring under the impression that Wlad and Vitali are the same person

Again dave same was true of Lewis who was stripped pretty much straight after Holyfield for not fighting Ruiz, still think when the four belts start changing hands with almost obscene regularity as they undoubtedly will we may look a bit kinder on the brothers

Just because Klitchko lost to Lewis does not make him a bad fighter imo. The fight was close and Klitschko did well. Lewis was a better fighter but i still think klitschko is quality Lewis is the number 2 heavyweight of all time imo so its no shame giving him a good fight and losing.

Maybe it is.........who knows.....

we'll see when he quits.

Unfortunately for the brothers they'll be remembered as a pair rather than individuals..

Imagine it'll affect their status in years to come..

Waingro wrote:Just because Klitchko lost to Lewis does not make him a bad fighter imo. The fight was close and Klitschko did well. Lewis was a better fighter but i still think klitschko is quality Lewis is the number 2 heavyweight of all time imo so its no shame giving him a good fight and losing.

Highlights his level perfectly, that his defining moment is losing to an ageing set on retirement Lennox Lewis, the majority of the great heavyweights beat their ageing contemporaries.

No it's how he lost too........

A lot of his feel he would've won that fight....Lewis didn't want a rematch..

Doesn't highlight his level at all..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Maybe it is.........who knows.....

we'll see when he quits.

Well, given the quality of opposition available to him, I'd say it's very unlikely he will face a sterner test before he retires. The ONLY big fight out there for him is against his brother and that's never going to happen.

In fact, that would be the only time I'd look forward to them returning to the ring, if they were facing each other.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's how he lost too........

A lot of his feel he would've won that fight....Lewis didn't want a rematch..

Doesn't highlight his level at all..

Much as you hate it, winning a fight because of a cut is a very legitimate way to win otherwise we may as well ingore all of Haglers middleweight reign, he couldn't beat an ageing Lewis.

I dont agree i think Lewis was a quality fighter and just happened to be better than Klitschko but I dont think that makes Klitschko bad he destroyed everyone else he fought. Most fighter lose a fight at some stage and at least Klitschko can say it was to one of the best heavyweights of all time and not some bum.

Foreman could not beat Ali but he was still quality and if Ali was not there then he could have been champ for much longer no shame in losing to the best.

It's legitimate but it doesn't highlight the losers ability when he is stopped on a technicality...especially when he is more than holding his own.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's how he lost too........

A lot of his feel he would've won that fight....Lewis didn't want a rematch..

Doesn't highlight his level at all..

Much as you hate it, winning a fight because of a cut is a very legitimate way to win otherwise we may as well ingore all of Haglers middleweight reign, he couldn't beat an ageing Lewis.

It's legitimate but doesn't really show your level. It's not really replicable and he's never lost more than 3 rounds or been knocked down.

Once again I'm absolutey astounded by the lack of respect towards the Klitschkos from some. Truss is right, once they're gone they will be missed, and I don't see it as an 'inconvenient truth', more just a simple fact. We constantly slate the Heavyweight division for the lack of quality within it - stands to reason that we'll therefore miss the only two fighters even approaching top class in the divsion once they're gone.

Maybe a bunch of overweight and poorly conditioned oafs passing the belts back and forth every few months in 'even' fights appeals to some - not to me. While I have no desire to honour either Klitschko as an elite Heavyweight great, it will be a sorry state of affairs once their skills are removed from a division already on death's door. I'd also add that, during the last decade, they are probably the only two Heavyweights who have had that 'wow, I want to be Heavyweight champion of the world just like them' effect on a few kids just getting in to boxing - they at least deserve some recognition for that.

Yes, they will be missed. Might be a sad indictment of the Heavyweight division rather than a glowing reference to their abilities, but it's a fact all the same.

I like the Klitchko's they might be boring to some but I like their consistency and find Wlad very charming although I think Vitali is terrifying looking. Both are very skilled and Vitali has an iron chin. Both are top 20 ATG's imo.

Personally I will miss them. Imagine if they weren't around just now the division would be awful.

Scottrf wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's how he lost too........

A lot of his feel he would've won that fight....Lewis didn't want a rematch..

Doesn't highlight his level at all..

Much as you hate it, winning a fight because of a cut is a very legitimate way to win otherwise we may as well ingore all of Haglers middleweight reign, he couldn't beat an ageing Lewis.

It's legitimate but doesn't really show your level. It's not really replicable and he's never lost more than 3 rounds or been knocked down.

Vitali lost not because of a technicality but because he wasn't good enough to protect himself, this wasn't a one punch knockout but an accumulation of punishment that resulted in him being unable to continue.

prettyboykev wrote:I like the Klitchko's they might be boring to some but I like their consistency and find Wlad very charming .

Glad it's not just me Kev, he's delightful isn't he

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's how he lost too........

A lot of his feel he would've won that fight....Lewis didn't want a rematch..

Doesn't highlight his level at all..

Much as you hate it, winning a fight because of a cut is a very legitimate way to win otherwise we may as well ingore all of Haglers middleweight reign, he couldn't beat an ageing Lewis.

It's legitimate but doesn't really show your level. It's not really replicable and he's never lost more than 3 rounds or been knocked down.

Vitali lost not because of a technicality but because he wasn't good enough to protect himself, this wasn't a one punch knockout but an accumulation of punishment that resulted in him being unable to continue.

Opened by a shot from the lace of the glove.

Just one cut then was there Scott and as you know that's absolute tosh.

That was a horrific cut, brutally worked on from the moment it opened. About as legitimate a stoppage as you can get, despite the many complaints at the time and since.

Got to love a bit of Joni Mitchell!
I think what we are touching on in a roundabout way, is -How long will the intermission last between the retired K's and the next credible heavyweight champion?Will there be another 30s, "send in the clowns" era as postulated above, or will be fortunate?
Seems like in the sport of tennis, you get yer Sampras, the best of all time,who rivals Agassi, who loses to a Federer one year, kinda passing on the torch.Fed has his main rival whom he looks like being supplanted by, Nadal....the talent is scarcely comprehensible.
We know with the spate of Chagaev's ,and misc Eastern European roadsweepers, pretty much what the division will look like before a credible champion arrives.Do I like the K's (as fighters), resoundingly No.Do I think that they will look better in retrospect, and it will be a long old time before anyone achieves what either brother did...Definitely,Yes.
Whilst to the "man on the street" the sport is encapsualted in the heavy division, it's clearly not a reflection on the state of the sport as a whole,which is actually in rude health.
However, as stated above, yes networks are turning their back on the sport, and the fact that the K's have -and this is undeniable-failed to catch on around the world, well it is pathetic.I don't know if they truly are that boring or the punters just won't tolerate the idea of jabbing 12 rounders, and Lennox was the master of that- however his masterclass of Tua was met with stifled yawns by most.I wonder if the MMA ,which pretty much guarantees blood and pain, sates this need with the Ogron tendancy.
Personally I couldn't give two hoots if boxing loses those fans who only want to see that, and who can't differentiate between the K's.
Heavyweight boxing does seem to be dying on it's bum and I for one won't be mourning it.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's legitimate but it doesn't highlight the losers ability when he is stopped on a technicality...especially when he is more than holding his own.

In which case, his defining fight is now one he may have been winning early doors but was being pegged back by an aging, close-to-retirement Lewis and was then left hanging on (perhaps for the first time in his career) as Lewis began to land a series of heavy blows including that devastating uppercut but still a fight he lost due to cuts opened up by clean accurate shots which required over fifty stitches (Scott, give over with this "laces on the gloves" nonsense)...although he may have been holding his own?

It's still not great is it?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Just one cut then was there Scott and as you know that's absolute tosh.

It was a genuine win of course, but Lewis wasn't good enough to protect himself either in that fight. Cuts are largely not replicable and don't generally show your level. Especially when you've never lost more than 3 rounds or been knocked down.

Tosh, much like you saying Wladimir doesn't even have a good win after predicting Haye to beat him?

You're clearly biased.

rowley wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:I like the Klitchko's they might be boring to some but I like their consistency and find Wlad very charming .

Glad it's not just me Kev, he's delightful isn't he

During the build up to the Haye fight he behaved respectfully and made Haye look like a clown. His English is exemplary, Vitali's isn't which is probably why he comes across as more stern and frightening at times.

Scottrf wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Just one cut then was there Scott and as you know that's absolute tosh.

Lewis wasn't good enough to protect himself either in that fight. Cuts are largely not replicable and don't generally show your level. Especially when you've never lost more than 3 rounds or been knocked down.

Tosh, much like you saying Wladimir doesn't even have a good win after predicting Haye to beat him?

You're clearly biased.

While you are clearly on the wind up yet again Scott, i'm flattered by your stalking but it's becoming quite disturbing.

Lewis was able to continue was he not while Vitali was not. Lets go back many a year shall we, Robinson, Hagler and Marciano all badly cut on the verge of being stopped, so what do they do? Close the show and not let it happen.

OK dismiss it as a wind up because it shows your bias. You aren't a good judge of their abilities or able to give them credit.

All I'm saying is that is one fight. Not that much to judge him on. He hasn't had much chance to make up for that defeat.

Scottrf wrote:OK dismiss it as a wind up because it shows your bias. You aren't a good judge of their abilities or able to give them credit.

All I'm saying is that is one fight. Not that much to judge him on. He hasn't had much chance to make up for that defeat.

It was ten years ago!

At which point it becomes his defining moment

DAVE667 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:OK dismiss it as a wind up because it shows your bias. You aren't a good judge of their abilities or able to give them credit.

All I'm saying is that is one fight. Not that much to judge him on. He hasn't had much chance to make up for that defeat.

It was ten years ago!

Who should he have fought to prove he can beat greats since then?

Can I just say how much I hate the term "defining fight". Careers are not defined by one fight, if they were we would all have Kirkland Laing in our british top tens on the back of beating Duran, careers are defined by careers, the clue is in the term. To define a fighter by one legitimate but unfortunate night and dismiss the rest of a whole body of work is wildly unfair.

I'll openly admit Jeff, the Lewis comparisons P me off beyond compare, once that gets mentioned I do go overboard with my criticism.

Scottrf wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:OK dismiss it as a wind up because it shows your bias. You aren't a good judge of their abilities or able to give them credit.

All I'm saying is that is one fight. Not that much to judge him on. He hasn't had much chance to make up for that defeat.

It was ten years ago!

Who should he have fought to prove he can beat greats since then?

It isn't about beating greats, it's about erasing the memory of that loss to Lewis with wins so dominant that people say, "Oh yeah, he wasn't the finished article back then" Sadly, his next fight against Corrie Sanders was everything that was wrong with the state of HW boxing. Sanders wobbles into the ring with zero enthusiasm for the fight but when he does throw a punch, Vitali scampers backwards around the ring like a startled deer. Then his next fight, is him beating up Danny Williams who, to this day thinks, "how did I get that fight". Then he retires for a bit and then beats up another punchbag in Samuel Peter who again, couldn't be bothered fighting. then it's a mixture of "who's he?" and "who the **** is he?" with the odd sparring partner thrown in for good measure and we're left with him facing a man who struggled mightily with a guy Lewis dispatched of over a dozen years ago.

Anyway, it's arguable that technically, Vitali hasn't improved in well over a decade. He's always fought the same way, which suggests that should he ever encounter another Lewis, the same thing would happen.

The only interesting thing watching either K Bros fight is whether of not the singer from "The Scorpions" is now completely ******* bald and will Rudi Schenker ever shave that pornstar 'tache off?

rowley wrote:Can I just say how much I hate the term "defining fight". Careers are not defined by one fight, if they were we would all have Kirkland Laing in our british top tens on the back of beating Duran, careers are defined by careers, the clue is in the term. To define a fighter by one legitimate but unfortunate night and dismiss the rest of a whole body of work is wildly unfair.

In which case, Joe Bugner should be ranked as one of the greatest fighters of all time and we can simply gloss over his fight with Ali in Kuala Lumpar and the fact that he showed as much ambition to win that fight as a pensioner does in trying to cross the MI in a hurricane

I agree to a large extent on rowley with this defining fight kind of emphasis which I think can be valid but is taken too far.

Im not comfortable with the idea of dismissing Klitschko on the basis of his loss to Lewis. Yes, the fight is probably his most memorable so to some degree he carries this burden but I dont think it should be used singularly to define his career when outside of that it has been largely positive.

Also, the fight itself is relevant. This was no one sided beating which dismisses Klitschkos claim to belong in the ring with Lewis. If anything the fight indicated that Klitschko would be competitve against the top fighters. Had Lewis won every round comfortably and the fight stopped due to an administered one sided beating then I think we could safely invalidate Klitschko but this simply wasnt the case. How many times in history has a close fight been stopped on a cut or come dangerously close to being stopped? Saddler vs Elorde for example was a fight in the balance until Elorde was deemed unfit to continue. Do we dismiss Elorde then offhand? No because despite the loss the fight indicated he was a top operator capable of giving a great fighter a heck of a fight.

Whilst I am comfortable with my own views and placing of the Klitschkos, I dont agree that the Lewis fight should be used as a means of dismissing them because the fight was close and competitive. Lewis was the better fighter and won the fight but it was by no means a disgraceful showing by Klitschko.

Dunno DAVE, in some people's eyes the question is 'Who have they beaten?' rather than 'Where have they shown their skill?'.

Whislt it was certainly a heroic effort from VK the fact still remains that Lewis was in dreadful condition and outside of his two KO defeats, had never looked so bad...and Vitali STILL lost to him.

A young hungry lion like that should have taken Lewis apart in the first three rounds

Elorde did also beat Saddler

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Elorde did also beat Saddler

In a rather meaningless bout against a dog tired Saddler.

Wouldn't call it meangingless when Saddler almost immediately put his featherweight title on the line against him, much like DeJesus beating Duran wasn't meaningless despite being a non title fight.

I think cheapen is a bit much, as it isn't like they are a tag team and it's two on one. The division may also be more competative when they have gone as the talent that is left is more equal, but this is really celebrating mediocrity, like playing New Kids on the Block over Nirvana. A star will arise at some point.

You not think the fact two brothers can walk in and just take heavy titles...cheapen the greatest prize in sport??

I do.

I just think it's a talented family, that's all

The first bout was supposed to be little more than a routine fight while Saddler was stopping over in the Phillipines after having embarked on a fight in Japan and was returning to the States. Elorde was completely unheralded at the time and scored a major upset over the poorly prepared Saddler thus getting him a rather unlikely title shot. The championship bout was a much stronger indication of both of the fighters when fully prepared and I find it difficult to read anything into the first bout other than Saddler was woefully underprepared.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You not think the fact two brothers can walk in and just take heavy titles...cheapen the greatest prize in sport??

It would if that ever happened.

These particular ones train pretty hard.

bhb001 wrote:I think cheapen is a bit much, as it isn't like they are a tag team and it's two on one. The division may also be more competative when they have gone as the talent that is left is more equal, but this is really celebrating mediocrity, like playing New Kids on the Block over Nirvana. A star will arise at some point.

Sorry? Which one is the mediocity in that equation?

Trout staying at bottom of stream

bhb001 wrote:Trout staying at bottom of stream

Good man!