Carl Froch

Hi Guys, i am new to the forum. I am a keen boxing fan and a longtime observer. I do not profess to be an expert in boxing but would like to chuck my two cents in now and again.

The first topic i would like to discuss is our WBC super middleweight champion, Carl Froch. Now this is certainly not a thread to bash Froch, as i am actually a massive fan of his attitude and willingness to fight the best. However since he has been lined up to fight Andre Ward something has been bugging me and that simple question would be ; is he actually that good? Controversial i know but i feel this is a valid question.

Carl is rightly applauded for his recent run of fights at the highest level. However, Abraham aside he has struggled in all of these at some point and i feel he is lucky to have just the one loss on his slate.

If we start with the Jermain Taylor fight, Carl was badly exposed here. Fighting a shell of Taylor (who was never that good in the first place) Carl was made to look slow and pedestrian, was badly outboxed and floored. He showed tremendous heart and fighting spirit to turn it around however that may have been more to do with Taylors lack of confidence and stamina issues. I feel the Taylor that fought Hopkins would have finished the job off comfortably by say 117-112 or 118-111 on the cards.

Carl then fought Andre Dirrell. I feel Dirrell is very underrated however he again made Carl look very ordinary. On the rare occasions he let his hands go Carl looked in serious bother and i feel Andre should have got the nod, and he most definitely would have if he showed an iota more of agression.

Next was Kessler and in some parts i felt this actually Carl's most impressive performance. Fighting away from home against perhaps the best fighter (on paper) that he had met, he aquitted himself very well and actually rocked the big Dane on a number of occasions. the problem here was Carl did not seem to fathom he was fighting away and stood back to admire his best work and posture all too often. He dropped a narrow decision which in many ways mirrored the Dirrell fight with Carl taking the role of Dirrell, if he had pressed a little more and not shown the same amount of respect i feel he could have stopped Kessler who was lacking confidence and seemed there for the taking. Still all in all a gutsy, credible performance away from home in a great fight and could have arguably took a close decision as the defending champion.

Next were Abraham and Johnson . These are probably Carl's two most convincing wins since moving in to world class but were they really that relevant?. Abraham was the betting favourite but was coming off a loss and Carl showed him up for what he is, a blown up middleweight who, when presented with someone who is not intimidated by his power has little else to offer, he is one paced and predictable. Then it was on to the war horse Johnson. A decent fighter but perhaps 5 years past his best and probably weight drained. Froch won by a comfortable decision but was caught far too often and the fight was nowhere near as impressive as was reported, especially against a 42 year old fighter with a loss column in double figures.

So there we have it, an impressive list of fights but no truly world class performances in my opinion. Where is his "defining fight" ie Hatton vs Tsyzu or Calzaghe vs Lacy etc. He has fought a steady stream of big names, but i just feel there has never been that fight where people sit up and think "this guy is the real deal".

With Ward on the horizon i feel he will be on the end of a painfully one sided decision, and we will have all been took in by not the quality of Carl's recent performances, but the fact he has guts and is willing to fight the best.

Please do not reply with how great Carl is, as previously stated this is not intended to bash him in any way as he is one of my favourite fighters for attitude alone, and i want him to win vs Ward. I just do not currently see how this is achieveable?..........

Carl has the ability to beat Ward, it's just whether he puts it all into place...

With all his talk of "giving him the nut right back" if he gets butted, I can see the wrong guy getting DQ'd here...

Welcome Lee, how'd you hear about us?

Just a quick one as I'm under pressure at work, but for me Froch is a cracking fighter, and his attitude toward taking on the best, at whatever venue, is to be commended. However, like you, I see him losing a fairly wide decision to Ward, though obviously I hope I'm wrong.

Hi Fists,

I was on the old 606 rarely and have just never got round to joining up mate!

Decent article.

Carl has definite holes in his game which can be exploited by quick movers, but I do think you are being harsh. You can't win every fight easily at the top level, at at least he's picking up the wins. Also, I believe he has learnt from his fights, to switch up mid fight (Pascal), belief he can win a fight at any point (Taylor) to be busier (Kessler), box to a gameplan (Abraham) etc.

I do think Ward will beat him though, but not easily.

Fists of Fury wrote:Welcome Lee, how'd you hear about us?

Just a quick one as I'm under pressure at work, but for me Froch is a cracking fighter, and his attitude toward taking on the best, at whatever venue, is to be commended. However, like you, I see him losing a fairly wide decision to Ward, though obviously I hope I'm wrong.

What time does the jobcentre shut then?

Anyway, good article Lee. It is always easy to pull apart someones record, I am as guiltly of doing it as anyone, and could easily find fault with Andre Ward's CV if I was so inclined. You could equally say that Tsyzu was past it and Lacy never had it, but that would be unfair on Hatton and Calzaghe. The bottom line is, Froch has, apart from one close exception, beaten a very impressive list of opponents, certainly better than any other British fighter at the moment and, for me, he has the talent to beat Ward. Ward has talent as well, but they are not mile apart that is for sure.

Having said that, I think Ward will win because I don't think Carl will be active enough. If he does start to up his punch rate and not just fight in bursts then I can see him edging a decision but the smart money is probably on Ward to take it on points.

I think Froch has the skills to excel..it's just that he is so lazy/laid back..

Really should have beaten Kessler..

Think it's the fact he has to get himself out of trouble... as to the reason his last few fights have been interesting..

Not an interesting or exciting fighter per se..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think it's the fact he has to get himself out of trouble... as to the reason his last few fights have been interesting..

Not an interesting or exciting fighter per se..

I agree with you his 2 best wins have come against a person who was past his best moving up in weight and probably shouldnt of been in the super 6 in the first place and the other win was against the most one dimensional fighter in the tournament who again was moving up in weight, he was very lucky to get the decision over Dirrell in Nottingham and at another venue it might of gone the other way, the win against Glenn Johnson was against a replacement who beat a replacement which doesn't do his credentials any good, he's durable and thats about it

Like Lee i admire his attitude for wanting to fight the best the division has to offer but out of the last 6 fights 2 have been with Middleweights, a Replacement who was moving down in weight, a controversial split decision win, a loss and Pascal who might of been weight drained as he has since moved up in weight, so can claim to have fought the best the division has/had to offer

I hope he can pull off a victory but i see Ward butting/fouling his way to a SD

fair point mr bounce, however i think it may be the hype machine talking there, whilst i feel carl would not hesitate in returing some of the ruff stuff i do not feel he is stupid enough to employ these tactics on american soil and risk getting disqualified in the biggest fight of his career.

You don't agree Scotty??

Personally just think this illustrates how easy it is to pick apart anyones record, have said it before but you would be hard pushed to name any Brit, certainly in recent memory who has had a tougher six fights than Carl has and irrespective of the nature of the wins he is 5-1 in them, which by any stretch is impressive.

He does make mistakes and is far from a polished or faultless fighter but to have these limitations and still find ways to win speaks well of his commitment and determination and as Scott says in some fights he has shown an ability to vary his gameplan and tactics. Ultimately like all sports boxing is a results business and he gets them so deserves credit on that basis

rowley wrote:Personally just think this illustrates how easy it is to pick apart anyones record, have said it before but you would be hard pushed to name any Brit, certainly in recent memory who has had a tougher six fights than Carl has and irrespective of the nature of the wins he is 5-1 in them, which by any stretch is impressive.

He does make mistakes and is far from a polished or faultless fighter but to have these limitations and still find ways to win speaks well of his commitment and determination and as Scott says in some fights he has shown an ability to vary his gameplan and tactics. Ultimately like all sports boxing is a results business and he gets them so deserves credit on that basis

You have just copied what I said.

Na mate, he is a guy with a decent punch and who doesn't mind getting involved, but also is there to be hit. Normally makes for good fights.

Fight against Pascal was exciting without him getting himself in too much trouble, as was the whole fight against Kessler, not just when it seemed like it would go to the wire.

I'll agree with Rowley sometimes the result is more important than the performance...

However the guy is his own worst enemy...his lack of application nearly cost him against an inferior Taylor and cost him against Kessler...

He's naturally gifted but naturally lazy and one might assume had they met Calzaghe beats him by work rate alone...

Needs to shape up..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'll agree with Rowley sometimes the result is more important than the performance...

However the guy is his own worst enemy...his lack of application nearly cost him against an inferior Taylor and cost him against Kessler...

He's naturally gifted but naturally lazy and one might assume had they met Calzaghe beats him by work rate alone...

Needs to shape up..

I think he's learnt. He threw a lot against Abraham and Johnson.

We'll see. I see a reluctant mixer..

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Welcome Lee, how'd you hear about us?

Just a quick one as I'm under pressure at work, but for me Froch is a cracking fighter, and his attitude toward taking on the best, at whatever venue, is to be commended. However, like you, I see him losing a fairly wide decision to Ward, though obviously I hope I'm wrong.

What time does the jobcentre shut then?

I'm a taxi driver mate, just dropped Towser off there.

Cab driver........

Good article, mate.

I agree that a few people have gone a little over the top with regards to Froch in recent months; however, to ask the question "is he really that good" does him a disservice. Boxing is a results-based business, and Froch's speak for themselves.

I think a more apt question would be, is he really good enough to establish himself as the best 168 lb man in the world, and earn a spot amongst the top dozen Brits of all time, given that these are the kind of accolades quite a few have been predicting for him recently.

In many ways, I think Froch has been a work in progress for much of his title career, and in fact may still be one. I agree that he was made to look flat and cumbersome at times against Taylor and Dirrell, but it's clear to me that the Froch of 2011 is a much improved version of the 2009 one. Watching his bouts against Abraham and Johnson - the Abraham fight in particular - you can see that he's improved his defence as well as his ring generalship, and certainly puts combinations together much better, opting for more quality rather than just quantity.

I think the seemingly never-ending temptation to rewrite history is rearing it's head again here. We can say that Froch got lucky against Taylor all we like, but the fact is that for the first half of that fight Taylor was boxing better than I've ever seen him before. Froch adapted, had some good rounds himself in the latter stages and showed tremendous mental strength to turn things around. Likewise, it's easy to dismiss what he did to Abraham now, but as you say many - me included, I'll admit - thought that Froch might come unstuck there. If Calzaghe's win over Lacy is 'defining', then surely Froch's wins against Pascal and Abraham must be at least in a similar bracket, given that Lacy simply wasn't the fighter he was hyped up to be?

Froch has proven, to me at least, that he is the real deal. It irks me when people go over the top (such as claims that he's already outstripped Calzaghe...I mean come on), but he's more than earned that 'good' tag which you're questioning. It remains to be seen whether or not he can take it to the next level, but even if Ward does beat him, it shouldn't detract from what has been a very fine career.

Think like Lewis, Calzaghe's longevity ended up defining him....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think like Lewis, Calzaghe's longevity ended up defining him....

Valid responses guys. It was never my intention to pick holes in Carls record, more to highlight the lack of a truly world class performance. I know this may be attributed to the level he is fighting at but all his world class wins have been close. Abraham aside, which i refuse to count as i do not feel Abraham is up to much and was handily beaten before and after the Froch fight.

This maybe why he has never generated the fanbase he deserves. I am sure Hatton and Calzaghe gained more fans after their performances vs Lacy and Tsyzu even if the wins are not as good as they appear under greater scrunity.

Trussmann i cannot agree that Froch is lazy. Ijust think the problem is he is not that good. I actually think he gets the most out of his abillity i just think the fact that Carl is willing to fight all comers is masking the fact that his performances are not great. That was the original point of the article. Also i do not want this to turn in to a Froch vs Calzaghe debate but i feel if we had Calzaghe's abillity matched with Carl's attitude we could be looking at one of Britains best ever, if not THE best.

leedizzle1986 wrote:
With Ward on the horizon i feel he will be on the end of a painfully one sided decision, and we will have all been took in by not the quality of Carl's recent performances, but the fact he has guts and is willing to fight the best.

Mildly annoying quote, although I agree with a lot of what you say. Even if you argue that Froch's previous fights have been close and he could have dropped a couple of them, I see nothing in his recent history to suggest that he is going to get embarrassed by Ward. Do you think Ward is really such a cut above Kessler, Dirrell and the rest? Why is Ward suddenly being placed on a massive pedestal?

I see Froch losing to be honest, but I think it will be 60-40 in Wards favour only, and I dont see either getting hugely outclassed.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote:Personally just think this illustrates how easy it is to pick apart anyones record, have said it before but you would be hard pushed to name any Brit, certainly in recent memory who has had a tougher six fights than Carl has and irrespective of the nature of the wins he is 5-1 in them, which by any stretch is impressive.

He does make mistakes and is far from a polished or faultless fighter but to have these limitations and still find ways to win speaks well of his commitment and determination and as Scott says in some fights he has shown an ability to vary his gameplan and tactics. Ultimately like all sports boxing is a results business and he gets them so deserves credit on that basis

You have just copied what I said.

Mere coincidence old boy, rarely read anything you write.

leedizzle1986 wrote:
This maybe why he has never generated the fanbase he deserves. I am sure Hatton and Calzaghe gained more fans after their performances vs Lacy and Tsyzu even if the wins are not as good as they appear under greater scrunity.

.

lee think the fanbase thing is a bit harsh on Carl he always drew well in Nottingham, I was at the Pascal fight and it was well attended and a cracking atmosphere, since then he has only fought Dirrell over here, suspect if he gets past Ward (big if) and gets a deserving homecoming bout he may shock a few people with how well he draws. Also a lot of fighters are unfairly compared to Hatton who for whatever reason just clicked with people. Is only late in his career Joe drew big numbers. I was at Lacy and it was busy but not sold out, Manfredo and Kessler were obviously mega but they were also after 20 defences.

Fan base has to do wuith his lack of PR, his lack of good TV exposure...ITV4...

and that there is nothing for the casual sports fan to get behind...

He's good but there is no real crowd pleasing style, charisma..he's rather bland...

There is nothing blue collar and earthy like Hatton...who was more exciting...

Nothing to CATCH the imagination..

solid pro..

Fair point Rowley.

Joey, My reasoning that Ward is the heavy favourite is based on a couple of things. Firstly Mikkel Kessler. He dealt with Mikkel with ease and i think Carl and Kessler are on very similar levels. Secondly Andre Dirrell. Reason being i feel Ward is a similar fast moving style boxer to Dirrell and Froch had major issues with this. Throw in a biased referee and hometown decisions and i just do not see how he can even come close to a win here unfortunately. Ward seems to have a decent chin and there is not any evidence that Carl has carried any great power in to his world class fights so i do not really understand him going with the "i am going to knock him out"angle as i do not feel he can. Again i hope i am wrong. If he catches him like he caught Brian Magee he will though, did anyone see that punch? was a beauty!

Bs reasoning..........Honey beat Curry, Curry beat Starling and Starling beat Honey........

Styles make fights..

I think Berenger is spot on (i'm agreeing with a few people today).......

Froch has the skills , chin and power to trouble anyone. Unfortunately, rather than being outboxed, he often gets outworked. For someone who is supposed to be 'super' fit it is a bit confusing as to why this is the case.

Since this run started (ie post Pascal), you only have to listen to McCracken's instructions between rounds. He is constantly getting at carl to improve his workrate.

ps Lee - i think you should hang your head in shame for the Dirrell being underrated comment.

haha, i feel he is. I mean he is relatively inexperienced and arguably beat Froch, along with Abraham. Not a bad start i feel

Lost to Froch and quit against Abraham you mean? Well, at least he dropped out of the competition to avoid Ward.

If you are trying to market this guy to the general public......How would you do it....

Average looking, bland, boring style per se...and a super-middleweight champion...

Not easy!!

Direll maybe lacks the intestinal fortitude to get to to top in boxing, he is still however a talented boxer who would give all of the current champions an uncomfortable night. I do not know why he does not push for the Bute fight, i feel this is very winnable for him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you are trying to market this guy to the general public......How would you do it....

Average looking, bland, boring style per se...and a super-middleweight champion...

Not easy!!

Put his missus in a (very small) bikini stood next to him (and pay her not to open her mouth....).

His Mrs in a mud wrestling match..

Much easier to promote..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bs reasoning..........Honey beat Curry, Curry beat Starling and Starling beat Honey........

Styles make fights..

Which is why i stated the reasoning behind Mikkel Kessler being a common opponent and having a impact on the fight is that Froch and Kessler are similar in style. If Ward easily deals with Kessler then the same applies to Froch in my opinion.