Do you know your Matchplay rules?

Players A & B and Players C & D are playing 4ball betterball Matchplay.

Players A & B win the first two holes.

As they walk to the 3rd tee, Player B notices Player C has 15 clubs in the bag. The extra club is Player D's who accidentally put it in Player C's bag at the range. Player C gives Player D the club back before they tee off on the 3rd.

Players C & D win the 3rd hole.

What's the match score as they tee-off on the 4th?

A&B 1up

Tiler76 wrote:A&B 1up

Computer says 'No'.

A&B 3up?

I think the penalty for carrying an extra club in matchplay is one hole deemed lost for each hole played, but restricted to a maximum of 2 holes? For my previous guess I was getting confused with the penalty for one partner using the other's club (which I think is just that the original owner - D above - can't use it again for the rest of round). But clearly this wouldn't apply if one player had 15 clubs. My excuse is it's late and I'm tired......

By the way, "D" is stupid! Unless, of course, the scenario is not hypothetical but based on personal experience.....

A&B are 3 up

Correct, A & B are 3 up.

Player A and Player B are all square thru 16 against C&D (4somes play)
player A puts his tee shot on the par 3 17th into a lateral water hazard but the ball is playable. While player B hits their second shot out of the hazard player A is rooting for lost balls in the same hazard with his wedge some 20 yards closer to the tee box.
Player B hits his shot well leaving 10 feet for player A to knock in for what they think is a half in 3 vs their opponents regulation par.
Is there any infringment?

Player B is a t*** for counting an opponents clubs

Hend - no there isnt

JDandfries wrote:Player B is a t*** for counting an opponents clubs

This is true.ball lodged 4 feet up a tree which is leaning at an angle.player elects to take 2 club length penalty drop.from which point does he measure the 2 club length

apparently the digging for a pinnacle constitutes a penalty in foursomes as he is grounding a club (even though he isnt the one due to take the shot for his team). it happened in the later stages of an interclub match about a month back and a official from the GUI made the ruling. the guy looked must have felt like an absolute fool! particularly when he only got a top flite

re the club counting.... agreed on the t**t comment!
It is something that has crossed my mind before though- especially when i see an opponent with 7 different head covers in his bag. I don't think i would ever call someone up on it though.

dynamark wrote:This is true.ball lodged 4 feet up a tree which is leaning at an angle.player elects to take 2 club length penalty drop.from which point does he measure the 2 club length

My guess would be the point on the ground directly under the ball?

SmithersJones wrote:

dynamark wrote:This is true.ball lodged 4 feet up a tree which is leaning at an angle.player elects to take 2 club length penalty drop.from which point does he measure the 2 club length

My guess would be the point on the ground directly under the ball?

2 Club lengths from the immediate nearest point of relief.

Maverick wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

dynamark wrote:This is true.ball lodged 4 feet up a tree which is leaning at an angle.player elects to take 2 club length penalty drop.from which point does he measure the 2 club length

My guess would be the point on the ground directly under the ball?

2 Club lengths from the immediate nearest point of relief.

In mid air?

SmithersJones wrote:

Maverick wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

dynamark wrote:This is true.ball lodged 4 feet up a tree which is leaning at an angle.player elects to take 2 club length penalty drop.from which point does he measure the 2 club length

My guess would be the point on the ground directly under the ball?

2 Club lengths from the immediate nearest point of relief.

In mid air?

Obviously the nearest point of relief is from base of the tree, unless your Benhard Langer and can play out of a tree mid air.

I was of the opinion that the drop should be taken within two clubs length
of the point on the ground directly under the ball not nearer etc .Mav you surely dont get to measure from the nearest point of relief ?

nearest point of relief surely doesnt come into it unless the tree is in a hazard?

Hend This is hard enough without putting the tree in a hazard
Remember tree is leaning well over

When taking a drop nearest point will always come into play as your have to determine where to drop your ball and that will always be your nearest point. You are then entitled to take a drop under penalty withing 2 club lengths, unless you ball is blocked my an immovable obstruction as set out in local rules, e.g lying on a cart path

'within 2 club lengths of where the ball lay not nearer the hole'
Could still leave you in a bad spot hence the other options

sorry i thought you meant "nearsest point of relief" from the tree... as in getting two clubs length from where it is not in your swing.
my bad!

dynamark wrote:'within 2 club lengths of where the ball lay not nearer the hole'
Could still leave you in a bad spot hence the other options

No-one said it was fair.. your nearest point is the nearest point if that happens to mean a guff lie thats just how it rolls, it's golfs way of teaching us don't hit it in the cr@p in the firstplace

Guys how many times have you seen it when a player assumes it means total relief.I assume its Ok to take a penalty for 2 club lenghts and another penalty for another 2 if that was the best option.
back to the question we opted for the point directly beneath the ball as the reference point

yeah it happens alot when playing with beginners/high handicaps. they just assume that it costs one shot to take a drop at a point where they have a clear shot- even if this could be 4 or 6 clublengths

Mercurio, can you explain to me how A&B are 3up. After 2 holes A&B are 2 up, the problem was rectified before they teed off on the 3rd so the result of the third hole should stand??

It's 3 down because C&D lost the first two, and they are ALSO deducted two holes because of the extra club infringement. So after 2 holes they are 4 down, and then they win the 3rd, so the match score at that point is 3 up to A&B.

With regard to the ball stuck in the tree - if you can IDENTIFY THAT THE BALL IS YOURS, you can take a drop for an unplayable lie within two club lengths of the point directly under where the ball is stuck (or go back and play again, or go back on the line of the ball and the flag).

If you hit the ball into a tree, and you can see a ball in the tree, you CAN'T JUST ASSUME THE BALL IS YOURS. You have to be able to identify the ball as yours. If you decide to climb up the tree to get it, be sure to declare your intent to take an unplayable lie before you start up the tree, otherwise (if you dislodge the ball) you'll be penalised AND HAVE TO PUT THE BALL BACK IN THE TREE again.

Mercurio wrote:Correct, A & B are 3 up.

Are you sure? Your logic suggests that C&D have lost the first 2 holes twice, how can that happen?

drive4show wrote:

Mercurio wrote:Correct, A & B are 3 up.

Are you sure? Your logic suggests that C&D have lost the first 2 holes twice, how can that happen?

I am with D4S on this one.... you can not lose a hole twice.

hogie wrote:

drive4show wrote:

Mercurio wrote:Correct, A & B are 3 up.

Are you sure? Your logic suggests that C&D have lost the first 2 holes twice, how can that happen?

I am with D4S on this one.... you can not lose a hole twice.

You haven't lost a hole twice - you've been penalised a hole. Completely different.

Sorry Merc, don't agree with you on this one. The error was spotted on the 3rd tee, BEFORE the players have tee'd off(?). If that is the case, you can't be penalised after the 2nd hole. As the first two holes have already been lost, the score of two down stands. No infringement has been committed from the 3rd tee onwards. If you look at the definition of rule 4-4a, when referring to strokeplay it says

Stroke play – Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round – Four strokes.

It clearly says "for each hole at which any breach occurred" which implies to me that once the infringement has been rectified, no further penalty can be imposed. I don't see why matchplay would be any different, surely you can only lose a hole at which an infringement has occurred?

D4S,

If you read the rule, you are penalised (in matchplay) a hole for each hole that you have too many clubs - to a maximum of two holes.

So in this case C&D lost the first two holes, AND were penalised two holes as well. So they were 4 down after two holes.

Here is what the rule says -

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-4a or b, REGARDLESS
OF NUMBER OF EXCESS CLUBS CARRIED:
Match play – At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is
discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole
for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per
round – Two holes.

And there's a decision which is just this situation - Dec 4-4a/9 part 2.e.

OK, found the rule on the R&A website, Mercurio is indeed correct.

Very harsh ruling IMO, I think it's a bit unfair to penalise someone for a hole that hasn't even been played yet

drive4show wrote:OK, found the rule on the R&A website, Mercurio is indeed correct.

Very harsh ruling IMO, I think it's a bit unfair to penalise someone for a hole that hasn't even been played yet

You're not being penalised for a hole that hasn't been played yet, though. You're being penalised for having too many clubs on earlier holes.

What if they'd won the first two holes?

What you're suggesting would be harsher as they would go from 2up to 2down. A 4 hole penalty!

Surely if they'd won the first two holes, the adjusted score would be only two down after two

Davie wrote:Surely if they'd won the first two holes, the adjusted score would be only two down after two

No, it would be all-square.

But THAT would be punishing twice!

Two holes otherwise won - loss of hole
Two hole already lost - penalty of two hole




I think

Davie wrote:But THAT would be punishing twice!

Two holes otherwise won - loss of hole
Two hole already lost - penalty of two hole




I think

They don't 'lose' the holes they won. They remain won.

So you are saying that someone who wins a hole by breaching a rule, is still allowed the "win" - then docked a hole for breach of the rule so each hole was effectively halved?

The rules say "loss of hole" - not halved

Davie wrote:So you are saying that someone who wins a hole by breaching a rule, is still allowed the "win" - then docked a hole for breach of the rule so each hole was effectively halved?

The rules say "loss of hole" - not halved

Where does the rule say loss of hole? And I'm not saying the hole is halved.

The penalty for breach of Rule 4-4a is stated above (1 hole penalty). What other rule do you think has been broken?

You need to read carefully the rule, which I pasted into my post above, and again here.

*************************************************

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-4a or b, REGARDLESS
OF NUMBER OF EXCESS CLUBS CARRIED:
Match play – At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is
discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole
for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per
round – Two holes.

****************************************************

Note that it doesn't talk about players being penalised holes. It talks about the score BEING ADJUSTED, by one hole for each where there was a breach, to a maximum of two holes.

So the result of the first two holes is relevant, since the deduction could mean C&D are anything from all square to four down on the third tee.

Sounds like C & D were taught everything they know about golf by me

Commit a stupid error and then manage to be 4 holes down after 2 holes...

All you can really say to C 'n' D is "peace man".

Wow Merc, just looking back into this thread, caused a bit of heated debate!

At least my second guess was right.... a bit like my golf, much easier second time

It's very depressing to read people posting on here about cheating - and their opinions are extreme - and yet when someone posts a rule query, it's clear that most people don't know the correct answer - and even worse, when someone does, they are second guessed.

George1507 wrote:It's very depressing to read people posting on here about cheating - and their opinions are extreme - and yet when someone posts a rule query, it's clear that most people don't know the correct answer - and even worse, when someone does, they are second guessed.

No negative part of that post is directed at me, is it, George1507?

I don't believe it is but I just wanted to check!

George1507 wrote:It's very depressing to read people posting on here about cheating - and their opinions are extreme - and yet when someone posts a rule query, it's clear that most people don't know the correct answer - and even worse, when someone does, they are second guessed.

I wouldn't equate not knowing one of the more obscure matchplay rules with deliberately setting out to breach the well known and frequently enforced ones. So cheer up.

no casual golfer is 'expected' to know all the rules of the top of their heads. the best thing is never to assume - if in doubt, check it. i find it is useful to keep a rule book in your bag at all times when the golf is competitive.

here's another from a recent match i was involved in:
4bbb. we reach the 4th tee, 2 down after 3 in a gents v ladies match. the ladies tee off, then my partner proceeds to tee-off from the yellow tees instead of the whites, which i point out after he plays ( i hadn't been paying attention - cleaning up a couple of wedges or i'd have pointed it out before he played). i then tee'd off from the whites. what would you expect the ruling to be?

ban_bam wrote:no casual golfer is 'expected' to know all the rules of the top of their heads. the best thing is never to assume - if in doubt, check it. i find it is useful to keep a rule book in your bag at all times when the golf is competitive.

here's another from a recent match i was involved in:
4bbb. we reach the 4th tee, 2 down after 3 in a gents v ladies match. the ladies tee off, then my partner proceeds to tee-off from the yellow tees instead of the whites, which i point out after he plays ( i hadn't been paying attention - cleaning up a couple of wedges or i'd have pointed it out before he played). i then tee'd off from the whites. what would you expect the ruling to be?

No penalty, but the ladies could ask him to cancel the stroke and play a ball from the correct tees.

ladies said - 'oh, that'll be our hole then'. i was inclined to agree, it would have been a 2 stroke penalty in strokeplay - generally that type of penalty transfers to 'loss of hole' in matchplay, but checked up the rule book and came to the same conclusion as merc. went on to win the hole and never looked back.