Should Lawes be cited for knee on Ledesma?

by brennomac Sat 10 Sep 2011, 12:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lot of discussion on Setanta - predictably not a mention on the rose-fixated ITV - on whether Lawes should (will) be cited for his "tackle" on Ledesma, Replays show pretty clearly that Lawes lead with his knee to Ledesma's head when Ledesma was on the ground and already out of play. There was no need to tackle Ledesma never m ind lead with the knee. Given how much the Argies love the English won't be surprised if he's cited. A

And please, my English friends, before you jump up in indignation go watch the playback.

by HammerofThunor Tue 13 Sep 2011, 12:40 pm

Why? Are there any laws against dummy grounding the ball?

by Cymroglan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 12:43 pm

What I'm saying is that players will always try and tackle the try scorer either to dislodge the ball or to try and stop them grounding the ball between the post.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:06 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:Never mind Courtney Lawes he got a deserved two match ban case closed. It is however outrageous that Steve Thompson escaped a ban for trying to kiss Mario ledesma. What was he thinking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wg2UMj6YFk

by Cymroglan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:08 pm

He deserved that.

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:10 pm

I'd seen the gay knockout before. It's bizarre.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:15 pm

The tournament was called "Pride" as well.

Anyway that aside, I assume Thommo was trying to get a reaction from him....just perhaps not quite such a strong one. Or it may have just been to lighten the mood, you have to be pretty comfortable with your sexuality to play in the front row and shower with the england team.

by damage_13 Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:15 pm

Tommo did the same thing vs the Aussies methinks in 2003 in the Autumn test.

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:21 pm

You never know he might be a steamer. Just 1 in the last 10 years of 6N rugby is a little implausible. Especially with the French involved.

by The Great Aukster Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:25 pm

Maybe Banjo Thompson fancied a bit of duelling as Mario has such a purty little mouth.

Still does such disrespect not fall into the same category as spitting?

by Redrage Tue 13 Sep 2011, 1:50 pm

I am surprised that the Romanian back rower wasn't cited for elbowing Mike Blair after he scored the opening try of that match. It was deliberate and late, quite similar to the Lawes incident.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 3:33 pm

Once agaiin, the benefit of the doubt has gone with the player. Lawes is very very lucky..................a cowardly late hit - no punishment. A knee in the head = 2 games

Martin Johnson, as expected, hiding behind the "accidental" defence...........

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 13 Sep 2011, 3:39 pm

Whats with the Irish hate on this incident? How is it that Lawes is getting the benefit of the doubt when he was found guilty?
Doh

And what was Martin Johnson hiding behind? Its a while since he was last cited.

This is a mixture of abuse and ignorance born of national hatred rather than any rational objective assesmnet. OK in Bonyes case I think hes stiull making a point about the Quinaln thing ( one day he'll get over that) but it still comes across as petty, small minded and spiteful nonsense.
Get over yourselfves guys, in the scheme of things it was a minor incident

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 3:48 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Whats with the Irish hate on this incident? How is it that Lawes is getting the benefit of the doubt when he was found guilty?

And what was Martin Johnson hiding behind? Its a while since he was last cited.

This is a mixture of abuse and ignorance born of national hatred rather than any rational objective assesmnet. OK in Bonyes case I think hes stiull making a point about the Quinaln thing ( one day he'll get over that) but it still comes across as petty, small minded and spiteful nonsense.
Get over yourselfves guys, in the scheme of things it was a minor incident

With respect that was a pretty low brow post. Ignorance? National hatred? Lawes deserved to be banned as did Cooper and Heaslip when using their knees, nothing to do with nationality. Think you must be listening to Jeremy Guscott too much.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 3:57 pm

Hi Seabuscuit,

You have crossed so many lines, I don't know where to start. Why would you accuse me of "national hatred" without having a clue who i am??
I am talking about the merits of BOTH Lawes incidents, and i dont care if he is from Ireland, England, Fiji or France. Don't dare attempt to stereotype me as a gombeen english hater because nothing could be further from the truth.

IMO- Incident 1 was an attempt to "take out" the centre after the ball had gone and IMO incident 2 was a delibrate attempt to injure an opponent, given that this involved nearly knocking the guy unconcious, then i think he should be releived at a 2 game ban.

As for Johnson, i was commenting on his view of the second incident which he described as "accidental".............

by damage_13 Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:01 pm

his tackle was about 1 second later, he was sprinting at full pelt...assuming you've played rugby jCregan have you ever tried to pull out that late?

I have and being the same height and similar weight to Lawes (but half the muscle and most likely the speed) I assure you its pretty hard, especially if you're going low for a bundle out.

by eirebilly Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:13 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Whats with the Irish hate on this incident? How is it that Lawes is getting the benefit of the doubt when he was found guilty?

And what was Martin Johnson hiding behind? Its a while since he was last cited.

This is a mixture of abuse and ignorance born of national hatred rather than any rational objective assesmnet. OK in Bonyes case I think hes stiull making a point about the Quinaln thing ( one day he'll get over that) but it still comes across as petty, small minded and spiteful nonsense.
Get over yourselfves guys, in the scheme of things it was a minor incident

I am Irish, try reading what i have said on the matter and digging out any "national hatred". Next time check before making such sweeping statements.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:39 pm

Hi Damage,

I have heard the "going at full pelt", "couldn't pull out" argument before. In this case, i believe he could have pulled out, but that is a matter of opinion.

Bundling out someone KNEE FIRST is not allowed so whether he was going slow or fast is immaterial.............

The player has to be resopnsible for their actions so going at full throttle is not a defence. If you feel like by going for an opponent at "full throttle" that there is a chance your tackle will be late then it is up to the player to make the decision not to attempt it in the first place, and not be relying on the "twas accidental, i couldn't stop" argument......................

by yappysnap Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:41 pm

True but when you get 3 or 4 others just looking to wind up posters then sometimes it's going to work.

As a point of note i agreed with what you mentioned earlier eirebilly.

by HammerofThunor Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:48 pm

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course. Howver in this case yours is wrong John Cregan Wink

I'm interested to know how you're so sure that both were attempts to deliberately injure another player? I ask as you seem so sure. Do you follow Lawes on Twitter?

eirebilly, you clearly don't count as you have your location as 'Holland'.

Seabiscuit, a bit far.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 4:58 pm

HOT,
By "injure", i don't mean put someone in hospital, but if you go down the road Lawes went down, a serious injury is a possibility..........................again, the only person who really knows is Lawes, but unless the benefit of the doubt starts going against players in these situations, someone will get seriously hurt................and i dont tweet!!

by Gatts Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:03 pm

Intent is difficult to prove..it is a mental state, but if an action can indicate intent i woudl say using knees is fairly self explanatory. If intent can be derived from effect, a dangerous but inevitable result, then knocking out one of the world's toughest front rowers speaks for itself. It is like gouging for me, if serious consequences occur as a result of reckless play then serious bans shoudl follow. Forget intent, you can't prove it in most cases. Either way a 2 week ban/holiday is derisory, he probably would have sat out one game anyway. With Bakkies retiring it seems we have anew contender!

by HammerofThunor Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:12 pm

The vast majority of injuries in a tackle come from them landing awkwardly not from the hit itself. For example Tiesi is out of the World Cup with knee ligament damage and Lawes didn't hit his knee.

John, I'm still not 100% about what 'Tweets' are to be honest

Gatts, Lee Byrne should be punished for ending Thom Evans' career then yes? He didn't technically do anything wrong but the effect was career ending.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:15 pm

Hammer, I was just reflecting baack the OTT stance of a few individuals who wade in wth ridiculous accusations. Apparently its not acceptable when the boots on the other knee so to speak.
Eirre apologies if you caught one in the face from that, your posting as with the majority of contributors in the debate had the tone fine. Lets not turn this into a witchunt every time a player gets a knock please people....it sgets tired very quickly and stirs up all sorts of nonsense ( go talk to Bonye)

John, again can you explain how getting banned means he got away with it?
Calling Martin Johnson a coward is too silly to actually be offensive so Ill let you keep that

Actually dont bother lets have a kiss instead? rose

by yappysnap Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:17 pm

All teams have players who put in the big hits, the ones that Lawes produce are far more legal challenges then some.

We can all name players from any country who have put in genuine late/high hits to injure, especially SA.

by eirebilly Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:20 pm

HammerofThunor, i dont count as i live in Holland? Thats an odd one. I am still very much Irish and follow Ireland with a passion.

by eirebilly Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:25 pm

PSW, no probs mate. I dont like the witch hunting either. Some people have gone way OTT in their condemnation of what i personally consider to be an unfortunate and clumsy accident. The ban is fine as it is it happened but there really was no intent there as far as i can see.

by eirebilly Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:26 pm

Oh, an cheers yappy Very Happy

by HammerofThunor Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:31 pm

eirebilly, sorry it was not serious.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:34 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:eirebilly, sorry it was not serious.

you missed out the obligatory Wink

to denote internet joking

Wink

by eirebilly Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:37 pm

Fair dues then Hammer. Smile

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:47 pm

Perhaps the OP title should now read ' Should England appeal against the citing decision/penalty?

by HammerofThunor Tue 13 Sep 2011, 5:47 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:you missed out the obligatory to denote internet joking

I know, it's caused problems before. I dislike smilies but writing on internet without them can be a problem. Unless you add "I'm joking" the end of everyhting (which is more annoying than smilies).

eirebilly, I more pointing towards the assumptions people make about posters' identity. Your name says were you're from of course but quite often a poster who says something negative about Wales is English and one who says soemthing negative about England is Welsh (or GreyGhost).

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:26 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:The remorse he feels is for himself, unless he accepts guilt first.

The thing that bothers me is that "It was an accident, I didn't mean to" is apparently a "mitigating factor".

Two weeks ago it was Cooper who "accidently kicked McCaw in the head" but "didn't mean to". This week it was Lawes "accidentally" kneeing a guy in the chest.

If it had been one of the Tongans, or a Samoan, or a Fijian he would have got something like 5 or 6 weeks and everyone would be making borderline racist comments like "These Islanders really need to work on their discipline".

Frankly, resorting to foul play under pressure is just part of the negative cynical anti-rugby that is brought to the table by certain countries. The judiciaries failure to act is similar a referees hesistance to immediately issue a yellow card for the obvious professional fouls that some countries deliberately concede early in the game on the basis that "3 is better than 7".

Australia 16 penalties conceded - no cards

Argentina 15 penalties conceded - no cards

New Zealand 14 penalties conceded - no cards

USA 13 penalties conceded - no cards

Romania 12 penalties conceded - no cards

Japan 12 penalties conceded - no cards

Scotland 11 penalties conceded - no cards

England 11 penalties conceded - one yellow, one citing - one ban.

England conceded 8 of their 11 penalties in the first 35 minutes of the game and the yellow card was the correct course of action to take.

Argentina conceded 7 penalties in the last 20 minutes of the game and Lawrence took no action.

You're wrong in your assertion that teams concede penalties as a result of defensive pressure, they concede them in a number of ways but it is always as a result of trying to gain an unfair advantage over their opponents, so it's no surprise seeing who the top three offenders are is it?

What a joker.

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:35 pm

To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:40 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

Doesn't it just leinster, I guess when gaining an unfair advantage is so inbred in some teams they can't help themselves, even when they're winning...

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:50 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

Or you could say the ref's have been influenced by stories in the media about the tactics of some teams and are looking harder at some areas Wink

Just kidding.

More seriously, were more penalties conceded by a team facing a ref from the other hemisphere* (I can't remember who reffed the Aussies)?

*Bearing in mind that most Argentinian players play in Europe.

That'd be an interesting one to compile over a few more matches - my professional opinion is that sample size is too small at the moment - by the end of pool play however it could be interesting.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:51 pm

Seabiscuit,

I didn't call Martin Johnson a coward................and what i mean by "getting away with it" is that i thought the ban could have been worse.

Im sure the England squad are delighted at the Citing hearing outcome........................

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:55 pm

Dont worry seabiscuit tends to make things up. He has a great imagination.

by GunsGerms Tue 13 Sep 2011, 6:59 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

Or you could say the ref's have been influenced by stories in the media about the tactics of some teams and are looking harder at some areas

Just kidding.

More seriously, were more penalties conceded by a team facing a ref from the other hemisphere* (I can't remember who reffed the Aussies)?

*Bearing in mind that most Argentinian players play in Europe.

That'd be an interesting one to compile over a few more matches - my professional opinion is that sample size is too small at the moment - by the end of pool play however it could be interesting.

It must be hard but you do a good job of being diplomatic when it comes to anti kiwi opinion. Fair deuce.

by Shifty Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:01 pm

The citing for the knee was rubbish, he was entitled to put the player into touch and couldn't do a lot to stop him momentum.

by Cymroglan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:04 pm

Lets face it if anybody makes fun of the Blacks he is just sat there laughing and thinking to himself...
Don't react just remember who's in the No1 spot in the IRB rankings.

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:06 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

Or you could say the ref's have been influenced by stories in the media about the tactics of some teams and are looking harder at some areas

Just kidding.

More seriously, were more penalties conceded by a team facing a ref from the other hemisphere* (I can't remember who reffed the Aussies)?

*Bearing in mind that most Argentinian players play in Europe.

That'd be an interesting one to compile over a few more matches - my professional opinion is that sample size is too small at the moment - by the end of pool play however it could be interesting.

You may be on to something KRD, it was Rolland for Aus v Ita by the way, so the top three teams in penalty counts were reffed from "the other hemisphere".

I shall study this phenomenon further. Still makes me wonder how Argentina escaped a card though, looks a little unbalanced doesn't it?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:14 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
...

It must be hard but you do a good job of being diplomatic when it comes to anti kiwi opinion. Fair deuce.

Practice

I like to talk about the game, and I'd rather not get into pub brawls ...

by Shifty Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:18 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:Practice I like to talk about the game, and I'd rather not get into pub brawls ...

You've been living in England too long!
Call yourself a Kiwi!.. Bah! Headscratch

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:21 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:To concede 14 penalties against a team you hammered says a lot about that particular teams tactics as most teams only concede that many penalties when they are being dominated.

Or you could say the ref's have been influenced by stories in the media about the tactics of some teams and are looking harder at some areas

Just kidding.

More seriously, were more penalties conceded by a team facing a ref from the other hemisphere* (I can't remember who reffed the Aussies)?

*Bearing in mind that most Argentinian players play in Europe.

That'd be an interesting one to compile over a few more matches - my professional opinion is that sample size is too small at the moment - by the end of pool play however it could be interesting.

You may be on to something KRD, it was Rolland for Aus v Ita by the way, so the top three teams in penalty counts were reffed from "the other hemisphere".

I shall study this phenomenon further. Still makes me wonder how Argentina escaped a card though, looks a little unbalanced doesn't it?

I think Argentina were lucky to get away without one - the only saving grace for them is (from memory*) the next penalty after they were warned was in England's half, and not at the breakdown.

*cue me being proven wrong ...

Generally (not related to any matches in the RWC) most ref's "final warnings" seem to last about 15-20 minutes. If a team behaves itself that long then the ref seems to "restart" the clock on infringing. I also note from last year's 3N the majority of cards that were issued were for dangerous/dirty play rather that repeated infringing.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:22 pm

AlynDavies wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:Practice I like to talk about the game, and I'd rather not get into pub brawls ...

You've been living in England too long!
Call yourself a Kiwi!.. Bah!

I'm a professional data analyst - looking at all sides of a question is part of the job Smile

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:29 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Lets face it if anybody makes fun of the Blacks he is just sat there laughing and thinking to himself...
Don't react just remember who's in the No1 spot in the IRB rankings.

Meanwhile Wayne Barnes sits there smugly winking to himself

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:36 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Cymroglan wrote:Lets face it if anybody makes fun of the Blacks he is just sat there laughing and thinking to himself...
Don't react just remember who's in the No1 spot in the IRB rankings.

Meanwhile Wayne Barnes sits there smugly winking to himself

How rude!

by Cymroglan Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:39 pm

I posted this in the pub and I shall ask the same question here...

Is this funny or rude......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rP9BHe0OV4

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 13 Sep 2011, 7:45 pm

Cymroglan wrote:I posted this in the pub and I shall ask the same question here...

Is this funny or rude......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rP9BHe0OV4

If his name is Lawes he should be cited

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