Ireland v USA - Live Match Thread & Post Match Discussion

[Pal Joey]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland v USA, Sunday 11/9 4:00pm (EST), New Plymouth

Ireland (15-1): Geordan Murphy; Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Keith Earls, Jonathan Sexton, Conor Murray, Jamie Heaslip, Shane Jennings, Stephen Ferris; Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callagha; Mike Ross, Rory Best, Tom Court.

Res: Jerry Flannery, Tony Buckley, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Eoin Reddan, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble.


United States (15-1): Blaine Scully, Takudzwa Ngwenya, Paul Emerick, Andrew Suniula, James Paterson; Roland Suniula, Mike Petri, Nic Johnson, Todd Clever (capt), Louis Stanfill, Hayden Smith, John van der Giessen, Shawn Pittman, Phil Thiel, Mike MacDonald.

Res: Chris Biller, Matekitonga Moeakiola, Scott LaValla, Pat Danahy, Tim Usasz, Nese Malifa, Colin Hawley.

[Feagh McHugh]

I was using stuff Sean has said in interviews more so than what he may or may not have said to me.
I accept what you are saying but I felt we had so may unknowns in the equation today, like the ( unfortunately fulfilled) potential that BOD Darcy DOC etc would again play poorly- they were always going to be starting come the Oz game so I personally would have fielded as close to my first choice team as possible around them to at least add more familiarity to the combinations.
Now we have no real clue as to the make up of our best 15 and could/will see changes in midfield, backrow, second row, front row and back three - and much of this avoidable (although not all).
Hardly ideal going into such an important game.

I dont mean to sound harsh on Earls he is a fantastic winger/broken field runner but while he was doing a tour of the Irish back line (thanks to Kidney) Trimble took his chance and edged in front of him.
Feel for Earls but he is behind Trimble right now.

[Gibson]

Val,
I loved Earls when he 1st broke on to the scene. So did Kidney and for good reason. He was a sublime raw talent. Sublime natural God-given talent. I actually thought back then, that he could replace BOD. Not any more. The reality is that the boy is not smart enough to be a World Class player. He runs into cul-de-sacs, makes the wrong decisions, gets isolated too many times. It takes a lot more than raw-talent. And this boy does not have it upstairs to make him extra-special. Truth hurts.

Trimble is a far better winger than him.Intelligent, powerful, fast. Like Shaggy back in the day. McFadden is a far better centre (and winger) - than him. But, it wont stop Deccie persisting with him. Its the Eddie Syndrome. What is it with Corkmen? Stubborn bu88ers.

In answer to your question on McFadden, he is twice the player Paddy is and ever was. Anyone can see that. Anyone except an Ulster fan. His days are all but over. The Aussies would eat him up.

Mis-placed loyalty, will cost Kidney his job in the long-term. Unless he wakes up that is. He is slowly, when it comes to young, smart, skillful players- in picking Murray and Jones initially, but too late for this WC.

[valjester]

Val,
I loved Earls when he 1st broke on to the scene. So did Kidney and for good reason. He was a sublime raw talent. Sublime natural God-given talent. I actually thought back then, that he could replace BOD. Not any more. The reality is that the boy is not smart enough to be a World Class player. He runs into cul-de-sacs, makes the wrong decisions, gets isolated too many times. It takes a lot more than raw-talent. And this boy does not have it upstairs to make him extra-special. Truth hurts.

Trimble is a far better winger than him.Intelligent, powerful, fast. Like Shaggy back in the day. McFadden is a far better centre (and winger) - than him. But, it wont stop Deccie persisting with him. Its the Eddie Syndrome. What is it with Corkmen? Stubbon bu88ers.

In answer to your question on McFadden, he is twice the player Paddy is and ever was. Anyone can see that. Anyone except an Ulster fan. His days are all but over. The Aussies would eat him up.

Mis-placed loyalty, will cost Kidney his job in the long-term. Unless he wakes up that is. He is slowly- in picking Murray and Jones initially, but too late for this WC.

If anything kidney doesn't rate earls, which was shown when he was at munster and everyone down there was screaming for him to be included but he didn't get a chance to show his talent until mcgahan took over.

His form on the wing last season was excellent better than anything mcfadden has ever played there. He has the potential to be a great player and you are being overly harsh on him by implying hes stupid.

Wallace gets unfairly slated by people and thats not going to change so I'm not going to waste my time arguing, people have short memories of our last three tours down under.

I feel that some leinster fans are looking at mcfadden through blue tinted glasses he has potential but has done nothing at international or hec level to put himself ahead of earls.



edit; may be overly harsh but I'm beginning to get fed up of the c**p being said after today and due to being up since 4.

[Feagh McHugh]

Val,
I loved Earls when he 1st broke on to the scene. So did Kidney and for good reason. He was a sublime raw talent. Sublime natural God-given talent. I actually thought back then, that he could replace BOD. Not any more. The reality is that the boy is not smart enough to be a World Class player. He runs into cul-de-sacs, makes the wrong decisions, gets isolated too many times. It takes a lot more than raw-talent. And this boy does not have it upstairs to make him extra-special. Truth hurts.

Trimble is a far better winger than him.Intelligent, powerful, fast. Like Shaggy back in the day. McFadden is a far better centre (and winger) - than him. But, it wont stop Deccie persisting with him. Its the Eddie Syndrome. What is it with Corkmen? Stubborn bu88ers.

In answer to your question on McFadden, he is twice the player Paddy is and ever was. Anyone can see that. Anyone except an Ulster fan. His days are all but over. The Aussies would eat him up.

Mis-placed loyalty, will cost Kidney his job in the long-term. Unless he wakes up that is. He is slowly- in picking Murray and Jones initially, but too late for this WC.

Agree with most of that particularly Earls lacks it upstairs to be truly great- but he still will make a fantastic winger.

Shaggy was never that intelligent though! He does what he does very well and learned to play to his strengths.

Agree re McFadden (you are overly harsh on Wallace though), DK never gave McF any meaningful game time in the centre so now its a big gamble starting him instead of Wallace.

Too late for Murray but felt Jones would have been in with a real shout of starting before his injury.

Didnt DK actually tell Murray he wasnt travelling thus making him fourth choice behind Boss (in third) then he bumps his fourth choice straight up to second/competing with Reddan for first choice....??.... Or is the semi concussion I got playing yesterday effecting my memory???

[Gibson]

Val,
I never said Earls was stupid. Please point it out if I did. I said he wasn't smart enough to make it at the very highest level. And I dont do provincial- like the herd. When it comes to Ireland, I just call it as I see it. I don't even know whether you are a Munster, Ulster or Connacht fan.And I don't care. But I can guess.

And Feagh,
Shaggy is hyper-intelligent (don't let that mad hair and grin fool you) and next to Hickie, possibly the most effective winger, I've ever seen playing for Ireland in the Pro game.

I feel like I'm in class here. I just want what's best for Ireland. Really do.

Believe.

[valjester]

Val,
I never said Earls was stupid. Please point it out if I did. I said he wasn't smart enough to make it at the very highest level. And I dont do provincial- like the herd. When it comes to Ireland, I just call it as I see it. I don't even know whether you are a Munster, Ulster or Connacht fan.And I don't care. But I can guess.

You'd be wrong. Earls has enough potential, ability and brains to make it at the highest level, all he is missing is a bit of arrogance, cockiness or confidence whatever you want to call it. Plenty of other players have had tough times including shaggy, fitz and trimble.

I just find it ridiculous that people are calling for mcfadden at 12 despite the most high profile game hes played at 12 being the magners final in which he wasn't great. Earls was the form Irish winger from the six nations to the end of the season, he had a poor game against france but besides that he has been quite good in the games he played. He will either start or bench and rightly so on form and talent.

[Gibson]

I really believe we need to change the one key player in the whole team. Kidney. The rest will sort itself out.

I'm not judging him again, until the RWC is over. He deserves that chance. But I'm doubtful. Really doubtful, if he can then take the full potential of this team forward - in it... or after it.

[Standulstermen]

We have only 1 outside back spot for cover so McFadden really wont come into the equation unless 2 of the following Earls/Murphy/Kearney are in the starting team which would mean leaving out Trimble or Bowe. Not gonna happen.

Sorry lads but McFadden hasnt shown enough to even be considered imo. His best games have come on the wing and he has been found out a few times in the centre.

I hope to God Kearney can come back in fit and firing because we need that security. Earls will bench as he covers 15, 11 and 13 (how well he covers these spots is open to debate).

SOB must start next week. Ferris too with specific instructions to tackle anything in yellow and smash that barsteward Pocock into next week if he even looks like going for a ruck. Our centres are a massive issue but unfortunately the only realistic option other than D'arcy is Paddy Wallace. I cant see McFadden being thrown into start but this is his only hope of making the squad

I would also bench Jennings instead of Leamy. I dont think either are great options but Jennings offers something different that Leamy doesnt

[valjester]

I really believe we need to change the one key player in the whole team. Kidney. The rest will sort itself out.

I'm not judging him again, until the RWC is over. He deserves that chance. But I'm doubtful. Really doubtful, if he can then take the full potential of this team forward - in it... or after it.

I think the main problem in the coaching team is gaffney but there must be a real worry bod and darcy just have too many miles on the clock. There is also the problem that we overrate a lot of our players and are weak in a lot of positions. We have major problems at 4,9 and 12 and it could be argued that at the moment the only players who would be considered in a conversation for a world xv would be poc and that's only because matfield has had a poor season with injuries and inconsistent form.

[valjester]

We have only 1 outside back spot for cover so McFadden really wont come into the equation unless 2 of the following Earls/Murphy/Kearney are in the starting team which would mean leaving out Trimble or Bowe. Not gonna happen.

Sorry lads but McFadden hasnt shown enough to even be considered imo. His best games have come on the wing and he has been found out a few times in the centre.

I hope to God Kearney can come back in fit and firing because we need that security. Earls will bench as he covers 15, 11 and 13 (how well he covers these spots is open to debate).

SOB must start next week. Ferris too with specific instructions to tackle anything in yellow and smash that barsteward Pocock into next week if he even looks like going for a ruck. Our centres are a massive issue but unfortunately the only realistic option other than D'arcy is Paddy Wallace. I cant see McFadden being thrown into start but this is his only hope of making the squad

I would also bench Jennings instead of Leamy. I dont think either are great options but Jennings offers something different that Leamy doesnt

Having thought about it a bench of ryan, jennings would probably be the most dynamic possible. David Wallace is going to be a huge blow.
I hope they just tell ferris to just hit pocock all day, don't worry about anything else just tackle him.
Earls is good cover for those positions imo, unfortunately for him.

[Standulstermen]

We are just bloody slow to let go of our players over here. End of story. Our succession planning is non existant. Compare that with Fergie at United and he is constantly looking at bringing in and working with young talent.

Now i know there isnt the money involved and we are talking about (in the majority) international level not provincial but we are well behind the SH in bringing through youngsters.

[Gibson]

We are just bloody slow to let go of our players over here. End of story. Our succession planning is non existant. Compare that with Fergie at United and he is constantly looking at bringing in and working with young talent.

Now i know there isnt the money involved and we are talking about (in the majority) international level not provincial but we are well behind the SH in bringing through youngsters.

Stand,
Don't even phhokin start me on this subject. I wrote it all down on 606 - 3 years ago, when Kidney started. At least Hayes & Horan are gone. Shaggy is gone. Dempsey is gone.Quinlan is gone. Stringer is gone. Murray is in. Jones will be back in. He did a U-turn on Ross. Healy is in. SOB is in. Earls is in. Mcfadden is in. Heaslip was ignored by Eddie. As was Jennings

He just did it all a wee bit too late for this gig. And in fairness, its all about timing. He was seemingly tied to BOD & Darcy. But, they should not have been exempt either. A top class coach, with real cajones - would have been capable of purposely dropping them a few times by now - because he had developed better cover in the meantime. It could even have woken them up from their slumber. He didn't. We are now here now. Not there. But he is learning on the job at this level.

You cant un-ring a bell. (c) Steady Eddie.

We should use the NAMA shekels, to buy Robbie Deans from Oz. Phhok the country. This is Irish rugby on its knees.

[Standulstermen]

We are just bloody slow to let go of our players over here. End of story. Our succession planning is non existant. Compare that with Fergie at United and he is constantly looking at bringing in and working with young talent.

Now i know there isnt the money involved and we are talking about (in the majority) international level not provincial but we are well behind the SH in bringing through youngsters.

Stand,
Don't even phhokin start me on this subject. I wrote it all down on 606 - 3 years ago, when Kidney started. At least Hayes & Horan are gone. Shaggy is gone. Dempsey is gone.Quinlan is gone. Stringer is gone. Murray is in. Jones will be back in. He did a U-turn on Ross. Healy is in. SOB is in. Earls is in. Mcfadden is in. Heaslip was ignored by Eddie. As was Jennings

He just did it all a wee bit too late for this gig. And in fairness, its all about timing. He was seemingly tied to BOD & Darcy. But, they should not have been exempt either. A top class coach, with real cajones - would have been capable of purposely dropping them a few times by now - because he had developed better cover in the meantime. It could even have woken them up from their slumber. He didn't. We are now here now. Not there. But he is learning on the job at this level.

You cant un-ring a bell. (c) Steady Eddie.

We should use NAMA to buy Robbie Deans from Oz.

More or less what he said

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Sorry only replying now val yes almost totally agree with you about Kearney well done sir. still however feel that nacewa is better (considerably) but Kearney still may get 15 jersey.

Also Wallace is a much more rounded player than darcy wish he didn't get so much abuse, he is a much better choice right now than McF or darcy imo

[Glas a du]

Don't you think there is a risk with Wallace that he will be so desperate to prove ...it would be like a 40 year old man losing his virginity?

[Thomond]

Don't you think there is a risk with Wallace that he will be so desperate to prove ...it would be like a 40 year old man losing his virginity?

Messy? Sloppy? I really don't know what adjective you're looking for.

[Glas a du]

It's going to be messy, but he needs to get it out of the way.

[rodders]

Don't you think there is a risk with Wallace that he will be so desperate to prove ...it would be like a 40 year old man losing his virginity?

The most risky option at 12 right now is Gordon D'arcy.

I agree with Gibson that Horgan is one of the most intelligent and best footballing wingers around. Bowe is in the same mold though, in that he runs great lines and creates space for players around him. Unfortunately we don't have many outside backs with the vision and awareness that these guys have.

I don't think there is a big problem with our back play though other than we are over complicating things and making too many unforced errors.

The breakdown seems to have become a problem though and against the USA and England last month we were not commiting enough numbers to the breakdown and we are allowing the opposition to disrupt our ball. I think a few fingers need to be pointed to O'Connell and Gert Smal in this respect for not identifying and rectifying this. Heaslip has been well below par and DOC is completely inneffective at international level these days and we need these two to buck up their ideas because we can't rely on POC, Ferris and SOB to carry the pack all tournament.

Rory Best apart the front row didn't work hard enough in the lose yesterday either and Mike Ross is another who is not pulling his weight around the pitch.

[dublin_dave]

regarding the gaffney point i am now beginning to think matt williams may be right in saying he no longer has a voice

for the first two 6 nations games we were trying all sorts of intricate little loop moves but off static ball. we then binned that strategy for the wales and scottish games where we just kicked repeatedly. for some reason it clicked v england. partly due to a massive physical effort in the contact area. the tries were off quick penalties and we played at a ferocious tempo and wanted the win more than they did.

we now have gone from a strategy of intricate loops and fiddly moves, which to be fair was not working very well, to not really having any strategy or direction behind the scrum at all.

i think kidney is trying to get us to play a slow bludgeoning possession game where we recycle, recycle, recycle until we eventually wear down the opposition and they run out of players hence his obsession in big bruising scrum halves. in theory this could work but the issue is we dont have any devil or bite in our ball carrying up front either and players nearly always receive the ball static making it so hard to make yards.

in the last two games there has also been a lack of intensity at the ruck. that we can remedy i am convinced.

Team/strategy for aus - jaysus lads its a tough one. i suppose i would play reddan and sexton. still think they are our best half back unit and were instrumental in our last good performance. if sexton plays poorly rog for rest of tournament

pack of healy,best,ross,doc,poc,ferris,sob,heaslip. heaslip and donners badly need a performance. backline of reddan,sexton,earls,p wallace,drico,bowe,kearney. subs. court,flannery,d ryan,jennings,murray,rog,trimble

darcy has had his 9 lives im afraid.

strategy: grow a pair have a go at australia from the off. absolutely tear into them, get under their skin and try to really rattle them. if we go with a conservative kicking game plan and kick poorly they will kill us

beginning to think our problems are deeper than out of form players and sit within kidney and his team of coaches.

[rodders]

beginning to think our problems are deeper than out of form players and sit within kidney and his team of coaches.

Jeesus I've been saying this for months. How Munster won two HEC cups under Kidney I'll never know. He's certainly not up to coaching International rugby thats for sure.

In his defence he probably has one hand tied behind his back by the IRFU. Player power seems to be a problem and there seems to be a prima donna attitude in some of the senior players who have become bigger than Irish rugby.

Kidney needs to stick with Sexton and Reddan at 9 and tell ROG if he isn't prepared to sit on the bench and wait for his chance then he can clear off into retirement as this half back rotation is killing our cohesion and direction on the pitch. It was ROG who spat the dummy out in 2004/5 at being taking off for Humphreys as he said it was affecting his performances.

O'Callaghan and D'arcy haven't been pulling their weight for years. O'Driscoll and Heaslip seem to be talking a good game but aren't delivering on the pitch.

Murray and Sexton may be making mistakes but at least they are playing with a bit of passion and enthusiasm as are Ferris, SOB, Earls and Trimble but some of the older players, POC (and Wallace prior to his injury) apart , look like they have lost their hunger and are living of their HEC and GS reputations.

[D24tress]

the more i see it the more kidney messed up the warm ups
i could handle us losing all four warm ups is we had tried things that would be needed.

that game and the italian game will be made for isaac boss yet he has barely got a game.

We insist on using a 12 for crash ball and have brought darcy wallace and mcfadden to do this, if my granny let any of these through i would drop her.
yet we never tried downey who is a crash ball specialist.

DOC hasnt played well in a while and we would not try cullen and POC.

I said it before the selection for all the talents murray has he is too inexperienced, people say he did not get enough protection.
If peter stringer was in the same position he would have demanded it and would have given the pack an earful, for a young lad like murray that would be tough.

Next week if we do not bring an intensity like wales did we will be blown away. SOB is badly missed and must play all the games.

Not one player could break a tackle, ferris was on his own and after awhile it was pretty easy to see who was going to get the ball and they had three on him.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

We need those backline moves back realistically because we are stagnating. Like the two inventive Bowe tries were pretty standard moves for teams like the French, Blacks, and Aussies, they were both just compressed screen passes.

I agree that reddan and Sexton need to get given the starting jerseys, ROG suits games vs Italy or S.Africa more IMO anyways.

Agree re: Heaslip and DOC also, those two really need to front up they are leaders (Leinster and Lions captains respectively at times)

Darcy needs to go and Wallace needs to come in. I think Darcy has seen his last game for ireland. That is very dramatic but he has been so poor for so long and he kills our attacking options so often. Furthermore, his ball carrying is gaining us nothing other than slow ball and very few yards.

If Wallace is on the pitch I believe we need Trimble at 11 for backline bulk be it crashes or dummy crashes.

[Standulstermen]

In fairness to Kidney up until the law changes we wee playing bloody well. We were the SA of the northern hemisphere under the old tackle interpretations. We have however been bloody slow to adapt (i dont think this is down entirely to Kidney). I think Kidney saw the need for change but has struggled to find a gameplan and implement it.

Where i think Kidney has a flaw it is in his loyalty to players. He remembers what they have done and thus has given them every opportunity to rediscover past glories at the expense of preparation time.

TOL is a point in case. Kidney should be applauded for making the call to drop him but he gave him more gametime than at least 2 of our selected 9's.

D'arcy is a similar case. How bad does he actually have to play before we drop him? Its not a issue with selecting form players imo because none of our options at 9 or 12 are world beaters. It is about selecting the players that are playing worst in these positions though

[Standulstermen]

I would rather have brought Spence than Downey as at least he offers a little more than just a crash ball. That being said he was injured during the summer and has limitations.

[valjester]

regarding the gaffney point i am now beginning to think matt williams may be right in saying he no longer has a voice

for the first two 6 nations games we were trying all sorts of intricate little loop moves but off static ball. we then binned that strategy for the wales and scottish games where we just kicked repeatedly. for some reason it clicked v england. partly due to a massive physical effort in the contact area. the tries were off quick penalties and we played at a ferocious tempo and wanted the win more than they did.

we now have gone from a strategy of intricate loops and fiddly moves, which to be fair was not working very well, to not really having any strategy or direction behind the scrum at all.

i think kidney is trying to get us to play a slow bludgeoning possession game where we recycle, recycle, recycle until we eventually wear down the opposition and they run out of players hence his obsession in big bruising scrum halves. in theory this could work but the issue is we dont have any devil or bite in our ball carrying up front either and players nearly always receive the ball static making it so hard to make yards.

in the last two games there has also been a lack of intensity at the ruck. that we can remedy i am convinced.

Team/strategy for aus - jaysus lads its a tough one. i suppose i would play reddan and sexton. still think they are our best half back unit and were instrumental in our last good performance. if sexton plays poorly rog for rest of tournament

pack of healy,best,ross,doc,poc,ferris,sob,heaslip. heaslip and donners badly need a performance. backline of reddan,sexton,earls,p wallace,drico,bowe,kearney. subs. court,flannery,d ryan,jennings,murray,rog,trimble

darcy has had his 9 lives im afraid.

strategy: grow a pair have a go at australia from the off. absolutely tear into them, get under their skin and try to really rattle them. if we go with a conservative kicking game plan and kick poorly they will kill us

beginning to think our problems are deeper than out of form players and sit within kidney and his team of coaches.

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that Ireland are playing the exact same as munster, leinster and saracens did under gaffney.

[D24tress]

stand i think he is hamstrung with darcy, we are not playing a game that suits wallace at all, if we had been spinning the ball out and having sexton take it up alot and having wallace as a 2nd 5/8 it would be perfect but if we put wallace in for darcy at the current tactics it would not make a blind bit of difference, its as much BODs fault aswell he is not giving any options that would make a 10 or 12 want to throw the ball out to him.

It would suprise me if spence even crossed his mind.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think it's safe to say that we need a different 12.

BOD is looking like more of an option there with each game, he has started losing yards in defence now when players drift to his outside with an sort of sudden-ness.

His defence is one of his best traits but he seems to be losing yards before and during the tackle.

Is he fit?

He had a pretty good season for Leinster but really needs to pull his socks up and lead from the front

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

The other thing I noticed with BOD is his lines are deeper.

He isn't trying to take the ball flat and break the line really anymore, he is standing deep looking to use footwork to beat someone or else draw his man or multiples of, and release others, effectively he is turning into a second 5/8, he's kicking more than he was pre 09 also obviously

[rodders]

In fairness to Kidney up until the law changes we wee playing bloody well. We were the SA of the northern hemisphere under the old tackle interpretations. We have however been bloody slow to adapt (i dont think this is down entirely to Kidney). I think Kidney saw the need for change but has struggled to find a gameplan and implement it.

Where we really though stand? We played well against France in 2009 but really a lot of our victories were scrappy and in a Lions year with no summer tours. The results may have been there in 2009 but I'm not sure the performances were.

I remember watching the draw against that young Australia side in 2009 thinking they were a side on the up and we had gone as far as we could go and remember having this sinking feeling that that was the last time we'd be able to compete with them with our current crop of players.

The law changes may have exasperated our problems but I think the rot had set in long before then.

The TOL thing was rediculous. How can you back a player through thick and thin and then just finally lose patience on the eve of the WC? If kidney had doubts about TOL's form and fitness he should have brought Boss in from the cold in the 6N and gave him more gametime in the warm ups. The same applies to Stringer who has had far more gametime than Boss over the past few seasons.

[BlueMuff]

Val,
Trimble is a far better winger than him.Intelligent, powerful, fast. Like Shaggy back in the day. McFadden is a far better centre (and winger) - than him. But, it wont stop Deccie persisting with him. Its the Eddie Syndrome. What is it with Corkmen? Stubborn bu88ers.

Gibson I have to take exception to most of what you are writing this morning.

1. Jennings had a stinker. His strenght is supposed to be his ability to scarp ball at the ruck. Didnt see him turning over one ball and clearing out was slow and ineffective. Ball carrying was zero. Time and time again Jennings has failed at International level.

2. If Trimble is so intelligent why did he kick the ball aimlessly into mid field with 30 seconds to go when we were chasing a bonus point?

Your comments this morning are totally loyal to one of your all time favourites but you need to stop persisiting with him.

[rodders]

The other thing I noticed with BOD is his lines are deeper.

Pete I think all the backs are deeper particularly Sexton. I'm not sure if it's because he's playing with an unfamiliar halfback partner or if it is tactical but we are attacking from far too deep and jsut giving targets to the opposition.

Maybe there's a lack of confidence in our midfield too. D'arcy and BOD are struggling for form and fitness and seem to be keen to avoid contact. Emerick went straight over BOD in the 1st half and in another run drove him backwards 5 metres before he was put to ground. Both players are entering rucks at 50% effort.

D'arcy is miles off the pace but to be honest BOD isn't looking so hot either.

[Standulstermen]

We were playing well Rodders. We werent pretty by any means but then again neither were SA at that time and they were comfortably the best team in the world.

Again TOL is 2009 was a different animal to the one we have seen since and Kidney should imo have seen the writing on the wall sooner.
THe Oz draw is fair enough and they were trying out new things but there was no reason why we couldnt bring in new players then as well. THe game has moved on and we have struggled to move with it.

We are trying to play a more expansive game but Deccie picked players in key positions who werent able to deliver and wasted time playing them into form imo. Thats the situation we find ourselves in at present and we desperately need a new backs coach who is given free reign to dictate how he wants the next generation of Irish backs to play.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I agree with Rodders, behind all the elation there was the feeling that we had the simplest possible game plan of having a 15 who could kick and catch better than anyone else, a good lineout and a 10 who could kick goals and territory. And a sick defence

There were so many close margins in the GS tournament.

Only just beat England
Only just beat Scotland
Only just beat Wales

We won a GS but we could very easily not have even won a Triple Crown that season.

Yes everyone is deeper and I amn't sure why cos Sexton for Leinster and against England played flat and it worked.

Yes noticed how poor BOD defended yesterday. And while I agree Sexton is deeper than normal and therfore everyone is, BOD isn't running on to the ball to take flat passes from Sexton anymore, he isn't fixing the defensive line at source, he is recieving the ball deeper still and trying to go around defences or feed someone else who will go through them, the problem is you have to work so much harder because the gain line is so much further away

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Stand has a point also, that while we had a simple and negative game plan we were doing it very well

[rodders]

1. Jennings had a stinker. His strenght is supposed to be his ability to scarp ball at the ruck. Didnt see him turning over one ball and clearing out was slow and ineffective. Ball carrying was zero. Time and time again Jennings has failed at International level.

I disagree. Jennings had a good game I thought. Every where the ball was he seemed to be which is the mark off a good openside. It's not the 7's role to clear out rucks and Heaslip in particular did feck all and O'Callaghan was worse, entering rucks half arsed at the side and flopping over the top like a lazy amateur club player who doesn't know the rules.

Ferris, POC, Best and Jennings were the only forwards doing anything in the lose.

[Standulstermen]

Val,
Trimble is a far better winger than him.Intelligent, powerful, fast. Like Shaggy back in the day. McFadden is a far better centre (and winger) - than him. But, it wont stop Deccie persisting with him. Its the Eddie Syndrome. What is it with Corkmen? Stubborn bu88ers.

Gibson I have to take exception to most of what you are writing this morning.

1. Jennings had a stinker. His strenght is supposed to be his ability to scarp ball at the ruck. Didnt see him turning over one ball and clearing out was slow and ineffective. Ball carrying was zero. Time and time again Jennings has failed at International level.

2. If Trimble is so intelligent why did he kick the ball aimlessly into mid field with 30 seconds to go when we were chasing a bonus point?
Your comments this morning are totally loyal to one of your all time favourites but you need to stop persisiting with him.

ROG did the same thing in the opposition 22 a minute earlier but no one mentions that. If we criticise Sexton for kicking away attacking ball in the opposition 22 on the first half then we should bloody crucify ROG for doing it in the last minute needing a BP try. That being said i would still start ROG

Having rewatched the game i dont think Murray was as bad as i first thought but his decision making is definately too slow at this level and we did see a fair amount of good ball in the first half. THis isnt a major criticism as it is only his 12th pro game or something ridiculous like that but he shouldnt retain his place. He will be better for the experience and i am excited to see his development at Munster.

[dublin_dave]

agree with nearly all of this.

Cannot undermine his achievements at Munster however. Kidney was the right choice for the job and started well. He has freshened up the personnel even if he has had clear blindspots with the likes of darcy who starts so often but delivers so little.

now we have gone from stagnation to worrying decline. all evidence would point to the wheels having come off.

im afraid i do not buy the step up argument 100%. Playing Australian backs is defo a step up from HC agreed. But is playing the likes of tindall & tuilagi and estebenez & rougerie really a step up for drico and darcy who performed well v toulouse and leicester in the HC. Just a leinster analogy there are others for other units. Munster 2nd row, Leinster props etc

Kidneys job is to piece together the work of Smal,Gaffney,Kiss,Feek etc and draw it into a coherent effective game plan. I feel he delegates so much that we now have too many opinionated vocal cooks spoiling the broth. We do not look like a coherent rugby team. Alas he is accountable for this.

i am all but resigned to us going out in the quarter finals. just wish we didnt have a 5 week stay of execution. The big thing for me is the performance level. If we limp out it will be an absolute travesty. and i count two futile late comebacks when the game is already over v aus and sth africa as limping out.

if we discover some form and passion (which has also been missing) and give it a rattle at least we will know they gave it a proper lash.

living in hope we can get a win over Aus or Sth Africa but my head says no.

[D24tress]

i can tell you one thing lads south africa dont scare me at all wales laid down a blueprint and with the kicking boots on or the touch judges awake
i seriously think we could put it up to them

they are racking up some injuries and if they are going to leave there best player on the bench we could do well against them.

Towards the end yesterday i was hoping for wales to lose, cause i thought they would be a harder challenge for us then south africa

[BlueMuff]

1. Jennings had a stinker. His strenght is supposed to be his ability to scarp ball at the ruck. Didnt see him turning over one ball and clearing out was slow and ineffective. Ball carrying was zero. Time and time again Jennings has failed at International level.

I disagree. Jennings had a good game I thought. Every where the ball was he seemed to be which is the mark off a good openside. It's not the 7's role to clear out rucks and Heaslip in particular did feck all and O'Callaghan was worse, entering rucks half arsed at the side and flopping over the top like a lazy amateur club player who doesn't know the rules.

Ferris, POC, Best and Jennings were the only forwards doing anything in the lose.

Would you agree that Ireland struggled to secure our own ball all night and we rarely challenged the US? If so is this not the job of the back row and particularly the 7?

[BlueMuff]

i can tell you one thing lads south africa dont scare me at all wales laid down a blueprint and with the kicking boots on or the touch judges awake
i seriously think we could put it up to them

they are racking up some injuries and if they are going to leave there best player on the bench we could do well against them.

Towards the end yesterday i was hoping for wales to lose, cause i thought they would be a harder challenge for us then south africa

Agree with the above but we have to beat Italy first....

[dublin_dave]

You cannot have a pop at one fella for kicking the ball when others have made similar errors in warm ups. Sexton, Murray, Fitzgerald, Rog, BOD, Earls all responsible for poor kicking.

Maybe trimble kicked because counterattacking is a dirty word in the Irish set up?? Of course he should have had a cut against a tiring team of semi pros.there have been times when earls has kicked with forwards in front of him. Its maddening.

Is it being drilled into them territory territory territory, no turnovers. personally think it is

would have fancied us v South Africa if we were not playing like absolute drains. If yesterday is a wake up call for them and they start Du Plessis,Albers,Hougaard not to mention bad bakkier returning i would say they will have too much for us

[rodders]

1. Jennings had a stinker. His strenght is supposed to be his ability to scarp ball at the ruck. Didnt see him turning over one ball and clearing out was slow and ineffective. Ball carrying was zero. Time and time again Jennings has failed at International level.

I disagree. Jennings had a good game I thought. Every where the ball was he seemed to be which is the mark off a good openside. It's not the 7's role to clear out rucks and Heaslip in particular did feck all and O'Callaghan was worse, entering rucks half arsed at the side and flopping over the top like a lazy amateur club player who doesn't know the rules.

Ferris, POC, Best and Jennings were the only forwards doing anything in the lose.

Would you agree that Ireland struggled to secure our own ball all night and we rarely challenged the US? If so is this not the job of the back row and particularly the 7?

No I don't agree with that. I think we had no problem with initially securing ball. What we had a problem with was that the USA's aggressive (and at times offside) counterrucking slowed our ball down and turned us over a few times because too many of our forwards were standing off waiting to recieve the ball rather than clearing out the rucks.

[Standulstermen]

The real issue in securing our own ball actually came in the 2nd half when Joubert abdicated all authority at the breakdown. We were also noticeably worse in this area when Leamy came on for Jennings.

Now im not advocating either of these guys to start but based on the fact we will be playing with two 6's next week it makes sense to have a 7 on the bench

[Feagh McHugh]

The real issue in securing our own ball actually came in the 2nd half when Joubert abdicated all authority at the breakdown. We were also noticeably worse in this area when Leamy came on for Jennings.

Now im not advocating either of these guys to start but based on the fact we will be playing with two 6's next week it makes sense to have a 7 on the bench

In a nut shell!

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think the issue was mainly how many yards we were making, it's all linked cyclically.

Quick ball->easier to make yards carrying->getting over the gainline->easier to get quick ball

With more players capable of getting over the gainline and placing the ball back quickly, I think the speed of our service will quickly increase however we need to initate either the quick ball or the good carry.

[rodders]

I think we have to play Jennings against australia or Pocock will have a field day. It's not about clearing him off the ball we have to get to the breakdown 1st on our own ball and neither Ferris or O'Brien will be able to do this.

Heaslip might but the way he's playing you wouldn't fancy his chances.

I'd drop Heaslip and play SOB at 8 alongside Ferris and Jennings and have Heaslip on the bench.

Another option to consider is to drop DOC and play Ferris at 4 and have an all Leinster back 3. I was always against the idea of playing Ferris at lock but I'm coming round to the idea as DOC has been so poor and our tight 5 has been devoid of dynamism, with Healy being the exception.

[Standulstermen]

I see no reason why Ferris cant do that Rodders. In fact its the job i would pick him to do. I dont think Jennings has the physicality to shift Pocock in all honesty.

You dont stick your best backrower in at lock

[Boyne]

Another option to consider is to drop DOC and play Ferris at 4 and have an all Leinster back 3. I was always against the idea of playing Ferris at lock but I'm coming round to the idea as DOC has been so poor and our tight 5 has been devoid of dynamism, with Healy being the exception.

I said that on the old 606 and got laughed at. Besides it wont happen.

The front row picks itself. Best, not Fla for me.
2nd row- there will be no change. Although DOC has been completely anonymous for ages now. Hes being carried.
Back row misses SOB. Ferris did well, but broke very few tackles. No leamy. Not even on the bench. His 1st act was to knock on. Standard stuff.
1/2 backs should be Sexton and Reddan. Kidney has fekked up Sextons confidence trying to stop ROG from spitting the dummy.
Centers will not be changed. They cannot be. Why?? Kidney has tried NOTHING new there. Its too late now.
Murphy is too hot and cold so the back 3 must be Kearney, Trimble and Bowe. Earls benching it.

Subs of Fla, Court, Cullen, Jennings, Boss, ROG, Earls.

Thanks

Oh, by the way.... we will not beat Italy Im afraid. I feel it.

[Boyne]

Oh, by the way.... we will not beat Italy Im afraid. I feel it.

And before anyone tells me to "believe", my answer would be that my psychological make up is delusion adverse.

I just cannot lie to myself.

[rodders]

I see no reason why Ferris cant do that Rodders. In fact its the job i would pick him to do. I dont think Jennings has the physicality to shift Pocock in all honesty.

You dont stick your best backrower in at lock

Stand you maybe misunderstood what I meant. We can't combat Pocock by trying to outmuscle him and shift him off the ball. We need to get to the ball carrier 1st. Once Pocock is over the ball even Ferris won't be able to shift him and it will already be too late as he'll have poached the ball or forced the penalty.

SA couldn't shift or deal with Warburton and we will have the same problems with Pocock. Ferris and SOB are both too important to start without but if Heaslip can't get to the breakdown 1st then we'll have to get Jennings in there somwhere.

You might have to stick your biggest and strongest backrower at lock if all your other locks are rubbish.

[Sponsored content]