Will Gatland ever drop Jon Davies?

First topic message reminder :

All the way through the warm-ups and today in our first world cup game he hasn't played well, despite the pressure of being replaced by Scarlets team-mate Scott Williams. JD is good at hitting gaps due to his 'centre of gravity' and has afterburners which he can turn on, but rarely does it and tends to struggle with the basics I:E passing. For me Scott should have been playing weeks ago. JD's dropping of balls and failing to tackle a player after chasing them down today was too much for me; there was also an identical occassion where Armitage danced around him at Twickenham and England almost scored in the corner.

Now I know scarlets fans will be telling me it's all the fault of James Hook and Jamie Roberts as they have been for weeks, or that he's being played out of position at 13. It might be worth noting that those said two happen to be two of our best players who have also played regulary out of position themselves.

Time to give Roberts and Williams a go in the centre, come on Gats sort it out.

nottins_jones wrote:Roberts makes big runs, sucks in a lot of defenders and causes the opposition problems for the full 80 minutes and it's all down to JD2.

Nottins
Out of interest why do you think Roberts played so well in the first game against England and the first half against England in cardiff, then was pretty damn good against the World Champs last weekend?

roddersm wrote:

Comfort wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:Roberts makes big runs, sucks in a lot of defenders and causes the opposition problems for the full 80 minutes and it's all down to JD2.

when was the last time he caused a world class side problems whilst playing for wales?

I thought Roberts was absolutely immense on Sunday and was Wales best player behind Warburton. He's playing a very limited crash ball game but doing it brilliantly and he was smashing over the gainline all game. He was in superb form in the warm ups too and is playing his best rugby since 2009.

rodders! agreed, my point being that its due to a working combination with Jon Davies.

Last time roberts played this well was with another 'proper' centre in BOD.

Since then, he's looked useless with every body else partnerring him. Which is why i dont get the "Will gatland ever drop Jon Davies?" - he's been excellant for Roberts and was very good against S.Africa.

Comfort wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Comfort wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:Roberts makes big runs, sucks in a lot of defenders and causes the opposition problems for the full 80 minutes and it's all down to JD2.

when was the last time he caused a world class side problems whilst playing for wales?

I thought Roberts was absolutely immense on Sunday and was Wales best player behind Warburton. He's playing a very limited crash ball game but doing it brilliantly and he was smashing over the gainline all game. He was in superb form in the warm ups too and is playing his best rugby since 2009.

rodders! agreed, my point being that its due to a working combination with Jon Davies.

Last time roberts played this well was with another 'proper' centre in BOD.

Since then, he's looked useless with every body else partnerring him. Which is why i dont get the "Will gatland ever drop Jon Davies?" - he's been excellant for Roberts and was very good against S.Africa.

Comfort
You are not totally right there!

Roberts has played superbly with the following aware centres

Shanklin (Wales & Blues)
BOD (Lions)
Fourie (BaaBaas)
Davies (NZ v Wales Summer International)
Lualala (Blues)
Davies (England 1st & 2nd (1st half) friendlies and now SA)

Its quite apparent why and when he has been playing well................... its just a few few posters here are blind to the fact

Comfort wrote:
rodders! agreed, my point being that its due to a working combination with Jon Davies.

Last time roberts played this well was with another 'proper' centre in BOD.

Davies could well be the difference, certainly Roberts and Hook didn't click. I have to confess Davies didn't stand out for me against SA, I'd have like to have seen him make better use of the space Roberts was creating but clearly he is getting the best out of Roberts, who's been quiet for a few seasons.

comfort, you must have missed sunday's game. Taa raaa.

Roberts himself has had some of his best games of late and we are starting to use him a bit more effectively but that said we are still not playing off him as well as we could.

I don't think he has ever failed to get over the gainline but is isolated a lot of the time

Although J Davies played well on Sunday I dont think hes ever hit his potential for Wales, I don't know if its just the different quality of opposition or what

NJ - seeing as every other poster bar perhaps one on this thread has disagreed with you, perhaps it is you that may need to re-watch the game again.

Beford - true, we weren't always running great support lines yesterday but in a weird way that can be seen as a good thing. A lot of people think that was the best Welsh performance in years, and there is still so much more we can improve on.

Getting the ball from the breakdown quicker and running better lines are just the start I think.

munkian wrote:Although J Davies played well on Sunday I dont think hes ever hit his potential for Wales, I don't know if its just the different quality of opposition or what

Have you ever thought that he is playing under instructions

flyhalffactory wrote:

munkian wrote:Although J Davies played well on Sunday I dont think hes ever hit his potential for Wales, I don't know if its just the different quality of opposition or what

Have you ever thought that he is playing under instructions

Really any need for the sarcy post ? I've always though he was excellent playing for Scarlets. And despite your one up man ship , yes, maybe the Welsh setup is the cause of this. Christ, lighten up

apologies Munkian mate

I'll take that one back. I think Mr G is using Davies as more the cover as a 13 when Roberts is barnstorming, where with the Scarlets he plays more right / left centre partnerships and invariably as a 12.

And you are right he is the "try machine" for the Scarlets....... is it 8 tries in 8 games in the ML last year 100% record

getting lighter by the minute

flyhalffactory wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:Roberts makes big runs, sucks in a lot of defenders and causes the opposition problems for the full 80 minutes and it's all down to JD2.

Nottins
Out of interest why do you think Roberts played so well in the first game against England and the first half against England in cardiff, then was pretty damn good against the World Champs last weekend?

I guess it was all down to Jonothan Davies, despite the fact the ball was in Jamie Roberts hands and JD2 never touched it. Can't win with some people. Somedays it's the fault of Hook that JD2 plays average, the next it's Gatlands fault for 'giving him instructions' to play average.

rugbydreamer wrote:NJ - seeing as every other poster bar perhaps one on this thread has disagreed with you, perhaps it is you that may need to re-watch the game again.

Or perhaps you should seeing as you're also the one of ones that believes Roberts played well and caused SA problems on sunday because JD2 was outside him.

Tell us, why hasn't JD2 played well at 12 for Wales either? These two midfielders were in different positions before the warm-ups I believe.

I don't remember the last time Foxy played 12 for Wales. As far as I can recall whenever he and Roberts have started, Roberts has been at 12, and Foxy 13. Edit: I stand corrected, just checked and he did play 12 in the 6N's. Don't think he played his best there but he certainly wasn't dreadful. Had some good moments especially against Scotland.

And of course I think Roberts played well because he had JD outside him. I also belive JD played well because he had Roberts with him in the centre.

In fact I believe the whole team played well because they all complimented each other and played their hearts out for each other. It was one of the best team performances I have seen from Wales for years.

With Foxy I believe we've got a talented player who's really going into his roll in his centre partnership with Roberts. They are an amazing defensive unit and are really starting to click in attack. I honestly don't see why you'd want to change this. Nor can many others.

rugbydreamer wrote:I don't remember the last time Foxy played 12 for Wales. As far as I can recall whenever he and Roberts have started, Roberts has been at 12, and Foxy 13. Edit: I stand corrected, just checked and he did play 12 in the 6N's. Don't think he played his best there but he certainly wasn't dreadful. Had some good moments especially against Scotland.

And of course I think Roberts played well because he had JD outside him. I also belive JD played well because he had Roberts with him in the centre.

In fact I believe the whole team played well because they all complimented each other and played their hearts out for each other. It was one of the best team performances I have seen from Wales for years.

With Foxy I believe we've got a talented player who's really going into his roll in his centre partnership with Roberts. They are an amazing defensive unit and are really starting to click in attack. I honestly don't see why you'd want to change this. Nor can many others.

I don't believe they're clicking as well as they can. JD's stuttering transition to international rugby is... well stuttering. For the record I don't see it being changed, perhaps the one time against Namibia.

I agree with what you say though. It's our forwards who had never played for each other in the past and as a unit our forward pack is pretty formiddable. I don't see anyone being able to match it apart from England and France. Oh and perhaps New Zealand...

I think our forwards took a huge lesson from the mauling France dished out to us in the 6 Nations, and how the breakdown has to be protected at all costs.

The amount of time France counter rucked against us was embarrassing. It only seemed to happen twice I think against SA and taht was at the very end of the match.

JD's transition may have been slow, but the only other option we've had is Hook (who has often been used at either 10 or 15 instead) and now the recent discovery of Scott Williams who is even more inexperienced! I think Gatland has done the right thing to stick by him. He was so close to his very best on Sunday, and I can only see him getting better.

rugbydreamer wrote:Well that's not true nj coz I've just re-watched the game and he made at least 2.

and if we're going by stats, JD was the only back on the field for Wales that beat defenders.

I've always rated Charteris, and I thought he was immense today, 2nd place in the MotM stakes today for me

Jamie Roberts didn't beat defenders?!!

that's what the stats said Gatts! (I said in another post they're not v reliable!) Perhaps they meant clean breaks? I dunno. Each site seemed to have conflicting ones anyway.

flyhalffactory wrote:apologies Munkian mate

I'll take that one back. I think Mr G is using Davies as more the cover as a 13 when Roberts is barnstorming, where with the Scarlets he plays more right / left centre partnerships and invariably as a 12.

And you are right he is the "try machine" for the Scarlets....... is it 8 tries in 8 games in the ML last year 100% record

getting lighter by the minute

Still remember his try against the Dragons , possibly the match he got injured () absolutely brilliant !

last phase of play, Phillips got pulled into the ruck, is that not illegal ?

Munkian

You are quite correct he is a try machine for his region.

Some "Welsh" posters have forgotten his had a bad injury which held up his progress last season. I havent seen many west wales matches last season as unfortunately I am not working in Wales anymore............ but try to watch them via the i-players

What most posters have realised (not only the welsh posters but alot of other nations) is that Davies

1. Plays 12 Inside Centre for his regional side, usually covering the silky handling skills of Regan King (or Scot Williams) whose timed passes complimented his speed and ability to counter balance angled runs off both feet and he is the only player in the ML to have a 100% try record 8 tries in 8 games. Basically an offensive centre

2. Plays 13 Outside Centre for Wales Gatland plays him in a different guise, covering the defensive line that is vacated by Roberts barnstorming runs in the first instance, working closely off his shoulder and covering any counter play by the opposition. You rarely see him outside of the straightened line whether offensive or defensive e.g. his covering of Tuilagi and Flutey when Roberts smashed through. Basically a defensive centre

When us guys watched your match at home all my mates could see that Davies has been instructed to operate in a way that is not natural to him at national level, but it does release Roberts. But he is playing anything but "average"

Big lads will be needed next weekend Davies and Roberts are both 16st plus

Jon Davies played very well in the second half, and he and Roberts are a powerful defensive unit. However something is not clicking in attack, as the ball never gets out to the wings. JR is not capable of offloading, in fact hardly capable of passing at all. We need to use him more intelligently, with dummy runs, scissors, miss passes etc. At this level you cannot bosh over at close range. The defenses are too crowded. Youngs try for England vs Argentina, Genia try vs All Blacks, Hook try for us versus England, Boks last try versus us all come from finding gaps at close range at with pace and guile.

If you look at SA's 2nd try Shane was actually tracking Houggard all the way and as he was moving behind the maul AWJ raises his hands calling Shane and defenders to cover across the left, Shane followed AWJ's inctructions and left a gaping hole for Houghard to waltz through. AWJ needs to think about those actions - I hate it when lots of players start directing traffic right and left without really knowing that they are going to leave gaps closer to home.

Guys, apologies, I should have clarified I meant actual international competition (Wales/Lions tests).

We're starting to see the best out of roberts, the wingers have been scoring tries (bar the SA game) and the defence has been solid. I just dont see why we'd then want to go and mess around with the centre partnership, its working, and thats down to the combination.

Also, if anyone wants to question JD2's game on saturday, you only need to see the breaks he made out of the Welsh 22 when we were being swarmed by defenders during kick chases, they were exceptional on more than 1 occasion and lesser players would have got caught out/turned over and given away points.

Their developing a very exciting partnership, the basics are getting covered as it is, let them progress, ill be happy if JD2 transfers half of his scarlets attacking prowess to the international stage to compliment our backline.

I hope he doesn't drop JD2, I thought he was very good on Saturday.

samuraidragon wrote:Jon Davies played very well in the second half, and he and Roberts are a powerful defensive unit. However something is not clicking in attack, as the ball never gets out to the wings. JR is not capable of offloading, in fact hardly capable of passing at all . We need to use him more intelligently, with dummy runs, scissors, miss passes etc. At this level you cannot bosh over at close range. The defenses are too crowded. Youngs try for England vs Argentina, Genia try vs All Blacks, Hook try for us versus England, Boks last try versus us all come from finding gaps at close range at with pace and guile.

I'm sorry but that quote is almost as ridiculous as most of Nottins Jones' posts - watching any Scarlets game JD2 has played in and you will see him involved in most tries, passing, offloading out of tackle, mis passes and passing behind his back or running exciting angles and looking for gaps.

To say he can't pass is rubbish, fair enough he hasn't been at his best attacking for Wales, but he has all the skills.

Smirnoff, re-read what he said, jR, not jD

Ahh apologies Samurai - misread - no offence meant!

No worries. From now on I'll refer to Jamie Roberts as "the Doctor."

does this mean we have a midfield combination of a 32+ stone foxy doctor?

Thats some midfield Comfort!

Can't even tell the difference between an R and a D. Now that's ridiculous! Still, what else would you expect from someone who drinks a girls drink.

Great response Nottings - and how exactly is Vodka a girls drink? I also drink JD, Dark and White Rum, Tequila and Havanna Club Gold rum as well are they girls drinks - and what difference does that make.

Why can't you post sensible posts for just one day?

What and your above post was sensible? Don't drink your girly drink if it prevents you from telling the difference between an R and a D, okay? WORD.

Any response to my point about the Doctor's passing, or lack of? He's recovered a lot of form and is making good ground, yet we did not look threatening in the backs and the ball seldom made it as far as outside centre, let alone the wings. With all that possession in good positions, shouldn't we have done better?

samuraidragon wrote:Any response to my point about the Doctor's passing, or lack of? He's recovered a lot of form and is making good ground, yet we did not look threatening in the backs and the ball seldom made it as far as outside centre, let alone the wings. With all that possession in good positions, shouldn't we have done better?

Samurai
You make a valid point, looking back over some early Roberts play it seems he has always played the same way and he doesnt often act as the "link man". However if you look at the opposition there always seems to be two or more players required to take him down. I think Gatland is using him to soften the opposition midfield and one thing you never see him (or Davies in that respect) lose possession or get turned over, if that is the case then you need quick rucking of the ball if Roberts sucks in two or three then you need the forwards to drive on.

If however your preference is a centre who is a link man with great hands i.e. a "Regan King" or dare I say it the sublime hand skills of "Henson"........... then that player has to be, firstly aware of the play and whether it requires plan A, B, or even C, and secondly has to be aware generally of his fellow backs, and specifically his fellow centre, now if thats the case you move Jon Davies to 12 and bring in Scott Williams at 13 (even tho he is a 12 generally).

I know we will always disagree on Hook, but as talented a runner and an opportunist that he is, to me his biggest weakness is he is a not a naturally "aware" player, not only the general play but of what his fellow backs are looking for. Over the years you have had some great Welsh foils for some barnstorming centres............. Bergiers (Gravelle), Bateman (Gibbs) had it, Shanklin (Henson) had it, and now Davies has it with Roberts.

"You pays your money (and you takes your choice)

Just an opinion of course

At the risk of agreeing with flyhalffactory - we now have a midfield that almost always gets over the gain-line and rarely, if ever, lets even the best opposition break through.

I'd stick with Roberts and Davies for the foreseeable.

'Creativity' and 'playmaking' is a pointless luxury if it means installing a revolving door in the middle of the pitch.

MrFahrenheit wrote:At the risk of agreeing with flyhalffactory - we now have a midfield that almost always gets over the gain-line and rarely, if ever, lets even the best opposition break through.

I'd stick with Roberts and Davies for the foreseeable.

'Creativity' and 'playmaking' is a pointless luxury if it means installing a revolving door in the middle of the pitch.

Mr F lets run off to Greta ................. I think this is good as it will get

Gretna? Cheapskate.

If you'd suggested Vegas I may have been tempted.

I AM A SCOT

Be thankful I don't make you go "Dutch"

And I expect to sample the merchanise before giving you the ring

samuraidragon wrote:Any response to my point about the Doctor's passing, or lack of? He's recovered a lot of form and is making good ground, yet we did not look threatening in the backs and the ball seldom made it as far as outside centre, let alone the wings. With all that possession in good positions, shouldn't we have done better?

I agree he's recovered a lot of form, it would be insane to drop him and it took at least 3 South Africans to bring him down each time he got the ball on the weekend; that's exactly what you want if you're going to use your centre as a crash ball merchant. He's got the potential to be the midfield general. Nonu also lacked a bit of a passing game earlier in his career but is now probably on of the best centre's in world rugby. It took him a while, he was trying to break into the All Blacks since 2004 if you remember. Roberts will develop, both centre's should throughout this tournament. It's not like we haven't seen his (the doctor) passing game for his club, because we have. WORD.

for once i agree with you Nottings both centres should develop and develop their partnership throughout the tournament and hopefully they/the management will mix around using JR as a crash ball merchant with using him to put in JD2 and vice versa or bringing the wingers into play. And both should get better and better.
Just nice to see JR rediscovering his form

WORD!

The "doctor" is a valuable asset , and I am not suggesting he should be dropped, only that we need to be more intelligent and varied about using him. At present, the ball dies with him every time. Also I worry about how long his career will be if he carries on crashing into contact like that.

With ur street talk ur too hip and kool for me. 2 b honest i always thought the word on the street was no parking!