History is reliable, there are no giant slayers, just dragon slayers.

What an extraordinary weekend of rugby...a couple of days ago i spent a while debating my position on performance versus result on the kudos to the smaller nations thread. It hasn't changed.

Performances still mean nothing in this World Cup, they never have and never will. Only the result, last night's extraordinary match illustrates this better than any of the extraordinary matches that preceded it. The only time a performance means anything in RWC is after the win has been obtained.

All week we have watched the underdog pretender promise us a shock and then fail to deliver, outclassed or outgunned by the favourite finding a way to win, win ugly, win any way, but just win.

Wales did play like 'heroes' but that heroism is poor compensation for the fact that ultimately they failed again to kill a giant and the use of these emotive words clouds the real issue. Wales failed to have the composure, failed to play the SA pack out of the game. Warbs himself, in my view a player of such stature that he will be one of the greatest flankers of all time, lamented on how Wales always end up here, always the bridesmaid but never the flaming bride.

They do not lack warrior spirit, passion or skill. They have it in spades but they do not have seasoned winners, experience, leadership and rugby brains. In fact Welsh passion for rugby, that intangible characteristic that we often claim exclusivity over, is what makes us always expect our boys to deliver, to dream they will perform and that to me is becoming our biggest weakness, rarely do they live up to their promise and I would swap passion for the clinical ugly W any day of the week. Our losing ways comfort us as long as they evoke feelings of passionate pride within us but ultimately it just perpetuates the problem, we have learned as fans to expect the Welsh performances to be glorious but ineffective, to always hope but not be surprised when our hopes our dashed...do we think the players are any different? Do SH fans and teams think this way, the glorious loser?

After two convincing Slams in recent years, we have been teased with the glory and we cling to it. The apparent revival of Welsh rugby. Obviously these were clearly false dawns, sublime moments which fed our passion and now seem to be outliers. We haven't built on them or consolidated. We continue to promise but not deliver. Yes we get better, we perform well but lose. Wales have been impacted this year by a disproportionate amount of injuries which because of lack of strength in depth has an exponential effect on us, but ultimately excuse making is also what costs us. We just aren't good enough yet to talk so much about what we can do, we need to do it first then talk about it. Wales lack the killer blow and the ability to deliver it, to close out the big boys when they have done everything, literally, but win the game.

What frustrates me most is that Wales lost the game last night through their own failings, not by an outstanding SA display. 9 missed points, 3 further points which had Hook or Warbs made a fuss about might have gone to the TMO. They should have broken the Boks...no Botha, Victor subbed, their best player benched, Habana apparently unable to find form, the whole team creaking. But no they went out and lifted their skirts straight away. Looked least competent in the first 10 than any other team and i have watched every minute. Like sheep in the headlights. They were out thought, outwitted by a team which is more adept at getting the ugly W than perhaps any other.

It raises the issue for me of their psychological make up, their rugby brains. Who are the leaders? SJ, RJ, JR, MW, SW, SW7? Fans will remember when in recent years Wales have lost games in the first few minutes, gone onto the park and seemingly frozen on the big stage, blown away by a score or two in the first 15 so that their game plan is put under pressure from the get go. They like high tempo rugby, love the last 20 minutes and often win games at the last gasp...but therein lies a problem; hi tempo is best played as catch up rugby and it is almost as if we have learned to play this way, and somehow prefer it when we are chasing the game.

I am not sure how to end this article, it has to be positive but only because I want us to win and i don't care how we do it. Ben Dirs says it better than i could in his BBC blog.

'On an opening weekend of a World Cup when upsets threatened but never transpired, Wales were perhaps the true stars. Not 'brave' or 'plucky' or any number of adjectives you will see in newspaper headlines, but a class outfit that does not realise just yet exactly how classy it is.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2011/09/knock-out_blow_eludes_wales_as.html

(His article suggesting England need to express themselves seems to me to be totally on the money)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2011/09/dysfunctional_england_in_need.html

Maybe, maybe Wales problem is nothing more than 1/2 players who try and win the game on their own rather than play for the team.

Shane Williams, a brilliant player that he is, every time he gets the ball he trys to do somthing special..Like dance his way through the opposistion, to either score a try him self or set up a try for some one else....Maybe hif he past the ball on then the team might of scored a try.

Mike Phillips, with his one step two step pass or his white line feaver when he trys to go him self, again maybe this is the reason Wales come up short...


Maybe it is not the Welsh team fault but the fault of 1/2 players.

When they play has a team for the full eighty minutes then they might just pull off the big game.

Gatts, I can see the loss is hurting, and I understand that well. Maybe for other reasons than your the last two years for the Springboks have been very poor, and their results have shown that.

Perhaps we do know how to win ugly, but we have also been known to lose ugly, and sometimes we lost "beautifully" what ever the difference may be.

Last year in the Tri Nations we lost a game to Australia in the Tri Nations when Curtly Beale kicked a last minute penalty from half way, because we wanted to close the game out by doing exactly what we did in the last 5 minutes against Wales on Sunday. But that time we were penalised for going off our feet.

Last year we also lost a test to New Zealand because we kicked possession away and wanted to defend a lead, and they came back to win in the end.

As much as you beleive it is mental it sometimes it is because of errors, and teams have lost matches over the years because of errors.

I understand very well what you are feeling, and the fact is Wales could have won that test, but for some errors, whether it was opportunities missed due to errors in judgement, or due to failing to organise defence in time, it is all irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Why, because all teams lose because of it, but your world cup is not over yet, there are still some tough matches left for Wales to face and they will win some of them and perhaps all of them.

I am not going to apologise for our team's win, even if we weren't on top form, on the day we had enough nouse to win and that is the end of that, you should accpet that your team lost and take the good out of it.

Yes the result are important, but if my team is going to lose, I rather have us lose with a great performance than having just another poor game.

Biltong

this is why you're one of my favourite posters. Always ballanced and always honest and realistic. Great thread

Cheers, mckay, the fact is your team made you proud.

biltongbek wrote:Gatts, I can see the loss is hurting, and I understand that well. Maybe for other reasons than your the last two years for the Springboks have been very poor, and their results have shown that.

Perhaps we do know how to win ugly, but we have also been known to lose ugly, and sometimes we lost "beautifully" what ever the difference may be.

Last year in the Tri Nations we lost a game to Australia in the Tri Nations when Curtly Beale kicked a last minute penalty from half way, because we wanted to close the game out by doing exactly what we did in the last 5 minutes against Wales on Sunday. But that time we were penalised for going off our feet.

Last year we also lost a test to New Zealand because we kicked possession away and wanted to defend a lead, and they came back to win in the end.

As much as you beleive it is mental it sometimes it is because of errors, and teams have lost matches over the years because of errors.

I understand very well what you are feeling, and the fact is Wales could have won that test, but for some errors, whether it was opportunities missed due to errors in judgement, or due to failing to organise defence in time, it is all irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Why, because all teams lose because of it, but your world cup is not over yet, there are still some tough matches left for Wales to face and they will win some of them and perhaps all of them.

I am not going to apologise for our team's win, even if we weren't on top form, on the day we had enough nouse to win and that is the end of that, you should accpet that your team lost and take the good out of it.

Yes the result are important, but if my team is going to lose, I rather have us lose with a great performance than having just another poor game.

Couldn't agree with this more, all the top teams make mistakes that cost them games.

The 6 nations tournament is part of the problem. We get a couple of grand slams and we think we're great. However, the 6N is just a measure of the best teams from 4-9 in the world (give or take Argentina's ranking at the time). Therefore, winning it and beating all teams along the way still only means you're at best 4th best in the world, which is why we still come unstuck against the top 3.

Wales are living proof of this theory. We can beat the other 6N teams on a fairly regular basis but very rarely beat the 3N teams. So for me it is much simpler than not having a winning mentality (which in the 6N we do) - we are simply not as good as the 3N teams and our 6N competition does not throw up competiton with the top 3 to allow nations a regular chance to close the gap. The autumn internationals cannot provide this either IMO.

Similarly, the reason the 3N teams are the top of the rankings consistently is because of the 3N. Playing the top sides over and over maintains standards and gives those teams the necessary attributes to easily deal with the rest of the world. I'll go as far as suggesting that if one of the 3N teams was to leave the tournament for the 6N, then after a while their standards would slip and they would struggle against the remaining 3N teams. This is why it is going to be so interesting to see how Argentina get on because, given time, surely their standards will be dragged up and above 6N standards???

Very well worded post Gatts.

(note, I probably should merge this with the Match Review thread, but I can be swayed by eloquence, and I think this one's worth leaving up where people can see it )

Griff

I don't agree. I think yesterday showed that we are as good as the tri nations sides and certainly competative. Wales were better in all facets of play but failed to convert the crucial points. It could have gone either way and yesterday it went against Wales. That does not equal Wales are not as good as the tri nations sides.

What won SA that game on Sunday was their defence being so disciplined. Wales had a lot of possession in the SA half but SA defended without giving away too many penalties. If Wales had being playing like that against just about any other team (especially England) we would have got a load of penalties and the game would have been won.

SA deserved to win because they defended like the champions that they are. SO congratulations to them and I for one will be hoping they go on to beat all the other teams in this group.

The real nightmare for Wales would be that we win our remaining games but Samoa or Fiji beat the other and SA and then there would be three teams with the same amount of wins and Wales could go home.

Even though Priestland played really well we should have moved Hook up to 10 for the last thirty minutes IMO - and please God lets not as some people have mentioned bring SJ back into the starting line-up for the next game!!

If i came from Wales,which I dont, and my team travelled round the World and played South Africa in the first game of a World cup tounament,and held them for 78 minutes of the game (apart from minutes 1 and 65 ) I would be very very proud because I would know that that is the best game this team has played in along time.

auklandlaurie

For me although we didn't actually win it's the best performance I have ever seen from a Wales side.

I missed the 1953 game as well.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I missed the 1953 game as well.

What about the 1978 one???

Actually Mckay I apologise that wasnt called for,.

Perhaps I look at this a bit different to you guys but a lot of Kiwis wish Warren gatland every sucess in his coaching career,he always had an ability to analyse,formulate and lead,its just that when he went to wales evrytime he took 3 steps forward he quickly took 2 steps back, this game although not a victory,it showed how that team was up for it and a lot of that is due in part to the coach, he must beat samoa in his home town.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Very well worded post Gatts.

(note, I probably should merge this with the Match Review thread, but I can be swayed by eloquence, and I think this one's worth leaving up where people can see it )

Shane did seem a little too focoused on dancing when nothing was on.

I think Wales should have been patient and gone through the phases and they would have ground out a win

Shane should have been subbed for 1/2....Philipps for Knoyle and Lydiate for powell in the last 15 minutes...it was clear we had no space on th counter so Shae was only ever going to be smashed back. He has max 3 more games in a red shirt i think. Powell's tendency to make mistakes would have been no more costly than Lydiate's penalty count and Knoyle would have sniped not crabbed. Look at the impact Brussow and Hooogard made!