606 Heavyweight Knockout Tournament

First topic message reminder :

As randomly selected by Rowley, the heavyweight draw is as follows:

Quarter Finals

Louis beat Dempsey UD 15 (145-140, 144-141 & 145-140)

Ali beat Johnson UD 15 (148-137, 147-138 & 147-138)


Foreman beat Holmes KO 9

Lewis beat Jeffries UD 15 (149-136, 148-137 & 147- 138)


Semi Finals

Louis vs Ali


Foreman vs Lewis

Unless Dempsey catches Louis early - Louis wins it, over the distance/later round stoppage for me. Jack was a whirlwind in attack - but Louis should have the defensive smarts to survive the onslaught.

Foreman to stop Holmes in a bit of a war - Holmes could be stunned a la Shavers - and Foreman as has been mentioned was not merciful and if people were hurt, they tended to stay hurt. Foreman on his 73/74 form to stop Holmes around the middle rounds.

So again - I've gone
Louis UD/late stoppage
Johnson razor thin UD/SD
Foreman stoppage
Lewis stoppage

Article now amended with first round results and semi final draw

Ali's height, strength and speed would see him to a close UD win over Louis.

Foreman Lewis really could go either way, but I'd back Big George to tag Lewis in the mid-rounds, so Foreman by KO in the 8th.

Ali beats Louis going away, but not without some scary moments along the way. I see Ali winning the early rounds comfortably, but as the fight goes on Louis takes away Ali's reach advantage by pounding his forearms and body, forcing the man from Louisville to go in to survival mode. However, he has enough speed in his backwards movement and enough of an early lead on the cards to pull through here. Ali by margins of 144-141, 144-141, 145-140.

Always fancied Foreman to clean Lewis' clock at some stage, even if it is down to gut feeling a little. One key aspect is that Lewis didn't like it when people got inside his reach and pressured / outmuscled him, the Mercer fight being a prime example. For all his strengths, inside fighting was not one of them. Foreman's relentless march forward makes that an inevitability, and though Lewis does the cleaner work early on, Foreman catches up with him around the seventh or eighth round and takes him out of there. Once Lewis is hurt against Foreman, there's no way he weathers a storm. Big George by KO in the seventh.

I'd see Ali squeaking out a razor thin decision over Louis.

Louis was by far the better technician, but I honestly believe that Ali's wonderful athleticism and reflexes would see him having the better of the early going, totting up the points with his jab and exploiting the closest thing Louis ever had to a genuine weakness, a curious disposition to being tagged by a quick overhand right. The longer the fight goes, though, the more Louis' economy of movement, accuracy and sizzling combos close the gap, and going into the championship rounds it would be mighty close, in my opinion. Those championship rounds would see the best of both of them - immense heart, courage, pride and determination driving each one on.

Gut instinct says that Ali would scrape home.

Having said all that, I'd reckon that Louis would be one of only two men in history who might be able to knock out Ali ( the other would be Jeffries in a twenty five rounder, ) because nobody could take Ali out with a single shot and few were quick enough, when he was at his best, to land a meaningful combo on him. Louis was, and if he could trap Ali against the ropes it isn't beyond possibility that he could knock Ali over and keep him there.

All in all, though, it's a squeaky tight decision for Ali.

Foreman v Lewis I'd have to see for George. His ability to cut the ring off is key, here, since it would mean he could force Lewis into trading with him. I don't altogether subscribe to the view that Lewis had a glass jaw, but I don't believe it to have been the sturdiest, either, and he would need it to be if he's going to trade with Foreman. Foreman's stamina is always a question mark, of course, but I've seen Lewis blowing a few times, also, so I have to reckon on George getting the job done while he still has something in the tank.

Foreman by KO, probably around five or six.

Ali UD, for me. 6 rounds in it on each of the cards.

Lewis UD, also, after boxing very cautiously and keeping George off him with the jab/uppercuts. Takes it by 3 rounds.

You been reading my thoughts, Windy!?

88Chris05 wrote:You been reading my thoughts, Windy!?

I think you both copied me to be fair...

With Ali in hypothetical matches its always quite difficult to measure because there are really two incarnations of him. The younger version I think is stylistically wrong for Louis who think would struggle with the young Clays movement, footwork and outside jabbing in the way he did with Conn initially. The older version of Ali causes less problems to Louis but ultimately I would give Ali a UD here.

I think Foreman steamrolls Lewis by the mid rounds, possibly earlier depending on when he gets through. I dont think Lewis has the durability to call Foremans stamina into question and he would not have any time to settle into a boxing rythm in this fight. Foreman marches forward and gets the job done. Foreman KO 5.

Ali dances round Louis without really hurting him on the way to a comprehensive points victory

I'll go against the consensus here and say I would back Lewis to win this one by late KO, unlike Holmes he didn't tend to get tagged very often when in against known dangerous fighters which Foreman definitely is, controls the fight behind his jab, softens big George up with clubbing right hands and knocks out a tiring Foreman in the 11th.

Foreman KO - for all the reasons already discussed. Strong, powerful - on Frazier form would walk down Lewis.

Everyone's going Ali - which is a shame because an Ali-Foreman final would be dull to predict.

So I'll go Louis. Masterful technician and in his later years defended well against the overhand right. Ali didn't have that much snap in his punches - Louis did. And Louis had all the punches. Close fight - with more work coming from Clay/Ali but cleaner harder work from Louis. Controversial decision for the brown bomber at the end.

Ali Louis I have to call for Ali, if we are talking peak I personally have to consider the pre exile version as Ali at his best and as CL has already said he is a bit all wrong for Louis, the Conn comparison is reasonable but Ali has natural size on Conn and is less likely to get a rush of blood late on, could be interesting if Louis connects but have to think in with Joe we don't see any Copper style lapses of concentration and while Joe would have success as he starts to suss Ali he would be too far in a hole at that stage. Ali close UD.

Foreman Lewis is tricky, as others have said if Foreman connects he has Lewis in a world of trouble but think this does Lewis a disservice as when he had a bit of fear in his belly over a guys power as with Tua and even Tyson he could be very disciplined, however in a peak Foreman he is in with a whole different animal and can't help but get the nagging thought out of my head that for all Lewis' strengths does he really go a full 15 without George getting inside, am going to go against the general grain and say I suspect he does and scrapes through although he'd be hanging on towards the end. Lewis UD.

I think Lewis is given too much credit for the Tua win. Its a good win, won in risk free fashion but I dont see it as being an accurate basis to sggst Lewis can control any fight at will behind the jab and certainly not someone of Foremans capabilities. Tua seems to have become something of a blueprint to support Lewis beating virtually any powerful fighter behind a jab and cautious strategy. Tua was so limited, immobile and reliant on the left hook that I think this fight has limited mileage in the context of someone like Foreman.

I actually think Lewis gets too limited to the jab as I often read on hee that he wins these fights behind the jab. If Lewis relied on the jab alone then I dont see him being successful. It was the jab combined with the ability to employ good overhands and uppercuts. I think against someone like Foreman you have to be willing to die to some extent in order to live and I think if a fighter went in looking to live behind a jab they would get bludgeoned out. You would need to give Foreman something else to think about and I think you would be forced to take risks to avoid being steamrolled.

Lewis, for instance, overly relied on the jab against Bruno for large instances and it worked out poorly as he was actually outjabbed in large parts. Its really only when he upped the tempo and intorduced more variety in the form of looping overhands that he took control and likewise against Tyson he needed the uppercut to be effective.

The ultimate problem for me is that I just think Foreman is miles ahead of the likes of Tua or a shot Tyson that I would be seriously reluctant to use these as a basis to say he beats Foreman in a cagey kind of strategy. Foremans stamina was called into question when he couldnt get his man out quickly and essentially punched himself out trying to blast his man out. I dont see Lewis having the durability to make this work. For the Tua and Tyson performances there are the Mercer and Holyfield and to a lesser extent Vitali fights where against men who brought the fight the jab wasnt enough to keep them at bay. I see Foreman getting through in similar fashion only he has the devastating power to make in count in a way Vitsali, Mercer and Holyfield couldnt.

It highlights how he fought against a dangerous opponent, his concentration rarely lapsed in his biggest fights and I don't see it lapsing against Foreman.

I dont think it mattes if his concentration lapses or not. I still think Foreman is going to get to him if they fight.

I think Ali would knock Louis out and Lennox would knock Foreman out late on when he was tired. Lennox would be just too good for Foreman and outbox him all the way.

An Ali v Lewis final would be quality they are the two best heavyweights imo.

I too reckon that Lewis is in with a good chance against Foreman, and not neccessarily by a cautious out boxing approach. George was never ligthing fast, and knock downs against Young, lyle and Ali show that he could be decked when caught right. It's certainly not inconceivable that Lewis's much straighter shots would cut through Georges somewhat telegraphed hooks, land first and catch George cold, Lewis got some big men out early- Ruddock, Grant etc and don't see why that could happen in this match up. Back up against Foreman and you were in trouble, and Lewis didn't allways look good on the back foot, so for me Lewis's best chance lies in being faster, landing first, and hitting hard enough to hurt George, and I think all of that is possible.

sorry, meant to say 'don't see why this could not happen in this match up'

Ali vs Louis

It's a tough one to call for me, and although I do think Ali would be able to evade and tag Louis enough to take a decision, I'm also aware that in Louis there is one of the greatest punchers in history opposite him. Don't think Louis falls into a Foreman-esque trap of wearing himself out either. I may get panned but I think Louis by split decision after a strong finish down the stretch. 143-142, 143-142, 142-143.

Lewis v Foreman

Another one I could see going either way, but like many have said already, I'd wonder whether Lewis has the durability to take what Foreman would throw at him, and I think eventually Foreman gets through for a stoppage in 9.

I honestly don't believe that the Ali of 1966-67 has had an equal in heavyweight history. His ability to dart in, pour in accurate and hurtful five and six punch combinations and dance away before his opponent was able to reply made him, as McIlvanney said at the time, "as secure as a dive bomber attacking stationary ammunition trucks". The Louis that annihilated Schmeling and John Henry Lewis had all the toys, with the exception of foot speed, and that is where this fight is won and lost. Louis could be stunned, as we know from his fights with men such as Galento, and it is clear to me that Ali would have been able to hurt him as well. With Ali's stamina a proven asset, I can't see how Louis is close enough often enough to loose off those devastating punches of his, even in the later rounds. Notably, Louis's most effective punch was the right hand, either straight or over the top, not a weapon which troubled Ali much, especially during his peak years. I have to conclude that a unanimous decision to Ali is the most likely result, possibly by as much as 146-139 on all cards. I do not rule out a late stoppage for the Greatest.

Foreman's ability to cut the ring down is something that Lewis would have needed to overcome to have any chance in their battle. I see Foreman as the aggressor in this battle, constantly seeking to put Lennox on the end of those pulverising crosses of his. Lennox was excellent at distance, not so good when having to fight like that off the back foot. For Lewis to win, he has to get George blowing, and I'm not sure if he is active enough to do that. I see George retaining enough puff to walk Lewis down and stop him in seven.

Agree totally...Louis is a great but Ali v Louis isn't even close......and Louis has a punchers chance and a punchers chance alone...

Speed - Ali
skill - Ali
Durability - Ali
Footwork - Ali
ring generalship - Ali
height/reach - Ali
Power - Louis

Strip it down and Louis just hasn't got much going for him..

I think you are right how can anyone compare Louis to Ali?? Ali was the best boxer of all time and far too fast and skilled for him Louis would have no chance imo and would get knocked out.

Not sure if Ali knocks Louis out and they are comparable because they are quite clearly the two best heavyweights of all time.

Waingro wrote:I think you are right how can anyone compare Louis to Ali?? Ali was the best boxer of all time and far too fast and skilled for him Louis would have no chance imo and would get knocked out.

Ali not the best boxer of all time. Even he didn't think he was.

Whether or not you reckon Louis gets KOd. For me - the man with every offensive punch and a good enough defence has enough to survive against Ali.

I don't know of many if any boxing historians or writers who have Ali at number, he's usually in or around a top 5 but not number one by a long shot. I think Ali gets put down by Louis at some and it's not a guarantee that Louis loses every time but against anyone the percentage call is to go for Ali by decision even if he did stop Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

Speed - Ali
skill - Ali
Durability - Ali
Footwork - Ali
ring generalship - Ali
height/reach - Ali
Power - Louis

Further more - in terms of Truss' analysis.
------------------------
Speed - Ali
Skill - Louis. Name me another HW who had quite as many different punches as Louis? More than Ali, certainly.
Durability - Agreed - edge to Ali - but we all know that Louis' durability wasn't so bad to render this "difference" that important.
Footwork - see durability. Edge but no more. Louis' footwork - especially in terms of placement for the punch - was incredible.
Ring generalship - see durability and footwork. As above.

Basically - such analyses as yours are incredibly unreliable Truss.

Remember Manny-Hatton? I didn't think your head-to-head was particularly unfair - you ended up predicting a TKO8 for Hatton, I leaned the other way and predicted a late cuts stoppage for Manny. Both of us thought the fight would be relatively close - based on such a for and against analysis.

Look what happened.

For me, Clay/Ali isn't so many miles ahead in any department (other than perhaps speed of foot) to make a fight against Louis a foregone conclusion.

We should remember, as well - that the first, incredible version of Ali looked his best against the likes of the suddenly-slow and disinterested Liston and the nearly-dead (literally) Cleveland Williams.

Louis was fighting against Schmeling, Braddock - for my money, better quality of opposition.

Going with the general consensus on both really. Can't see Louis having enough to get past Ali's speed, reflexes, movement and lightning quick jab. Saying that Louis was no slouch and could throw just about every punch in the book very well along with an excellent defence. This would be enough to make this very close but I have to go with Ali to scrape it by a couple of rounds. 145-143, 144-143, 145-145.

Foreman vs Louis is a bit easier to call imo. I could see Lewis winning most of the first 4 or 5 rounds with a couple of shaky moments when Foreman does catch him but I can't see Lewis keeping Foreman at range all night. Foreman would land the big shots eventually there's not many in the history of the sport that could take Foreman big shots. Foreman KO 7.

Are we doing all 8 weights or is it Heavies only?

Interesting that whilst most people have rightly questioned Lewis's abilty to absorb Foremans punches, few are questioning Georges ability to absorb Lewis's best right hands. Foreman was relatively easy to hit, and Lewis could punch, and I 'm not convinced that George can walk through those shots indefinately. Could easily be a knockout either way

Is anyone going to carry on with these now that Ghosty has gone?

You sound like just the man, Scotty!

I'm not sure the interest is there, I always got the impression that these threads only survived due to Ghosty's incessant pushing of them, and people would comment just to keep him quiet.

What's happened to Ghosty? Don't get on every day like I used to, can someone shed some light? Has he been banned?

Union Cane wrote:I'm not sure the interest is there, I always got the impression that these threads only survived due to Ghosty's incessant pushing of them, and people would comment just to keep him quiet.

Think that is only because they have never had your levels of organisational skills and logistical efficiency bought to them. I personally enjoy them and would enjoy seeing them continue

Union Cane wrote:I'm not sure the interest is there, I always got the impression that these threads only survived due to Ghosty's incessant pushing of them, and people would comment just to keep him quiet.

Could be, there were a lot of bumps, maybe there isn't sufficient interest.

Not sure about me doing them FOF, not big into fantasy fights but wouldn't mind seeing the results.

I think rowley just volunteered didn't he?

Union Cane wrote:I think rowley just volunteered didn't he?

No

88Chris05 wrote:What's happened to Ghosty? Don't get on every day like I used to, can someone shed some light? Has he been banned?

He was banned for trying to turn people against the moderators but tried to do a Shantel Jackson and pretend he quit.

Blimey, didn't see that one coming! Liked Ghosty, he really knew his stuff. Mind you though, he did get a bit grumpy as time went on. He'll probably be back sooner or later (not many bans are permanent, are they?), just hopefully a little more light-hearted.

88Chris05 wrote:Blimey, didn't see that one coming! Liked Ghosty, he really knew his stuff. Mind you though, he did get a bit grumpy as time went on. He'll probably be back sooner or later (not many bans are permanent, are they?), just hopefully a little more light-hearted.

He might be back...

But I think it was permanent.

Scottrf wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Blimey, didn't see that one coming! Liked Ghosty, he really knew his stuff. Mind you though, he did get a bit grumpy as time went on. He'll probably be back sooner or later (not many bans are permanent, are they?), just hopefully a little more light-hearted.

He might be back...

But I think it was permanent.

That would be my guess, because much as I liked Ghosty he did go into meltdown a bit and have to say he was asking for it a little.

Though I know we're all meant to be mature about this, I have to confess to being a little bit disappointed that I didn't get to see this 'meltdown' which you allude to, Jeff, and the comments which actually served as the straw which broke the camel's back!

From reading what was on ne of the primetime threads it seemed liked Imperial Ghosty tried to lead something of revolt against the moderators and mass exodus from the site.

To echo what others have said I genuinely dont think he appeared to enjoy the board as he spent most of his time warped in arguments with the mods or other members. Cant help feel he took what is just a forum of discussion all a bit too seriously. Certainly if you going to compare the mods to a Stalinist regime I think you may need to re-evaluate the purpose of of boxing board and what you are getting out of it. He spent a fair bit of time on here though and seemed to participate in managing a number of lists and tournament threads so he may consider simply setting up his own forum?

Colonial Lion wrote:From reading what was on ne of the primetime threads it seemed liked Imperial Ghosty tried to lead something of revolt against the moderators and mass exodus from the site.

To echo what others have said I genuinely dont think he appeared to enjoy the board as he spent most of his time warped in arguments with the mods or other members. Cant help feel he took what is just a forum of discussion all a bit too seriously. Certainly if you going to compare the mods to a Stalinist regime I think you may need to re-evaluate the purpose of of boxing board and what you are getting out of it. He spent a fair bit of time on here though and seemed to participate in managing a number of lists and tournament threads so he may consider simply setting up his own forum?

Yeah you're right, he'd certainly have to be a bit special to come back if he hated it so much.

Seems to be the case Scottrf although I understand he did enjoy discussions with a handful of members. The problem is on rather general boards like this is that you cant have everything your own way. There will always be topics, threads, posters and so on that dont particularly interest you and unless you develop a system whereby you simply learn to be selective on threads and choose ones that interest you then you are most likely going to be disappointed.

He seemed to feel he had to read and comment on every thread going, many of which he didnt particulalry seem to enjoy. The Primetime issue especially bothered him but have to say I dont understand why he chose to read through those threads in the first place. Can understand the issues people had with Primetime but it was not a case of it being forced on people and I was happy enough to ignore the threads once I got the gist of what the idea was without any adverse effects!

It was losing out in the vote for a new moderator a while back that tipped him over the edge, the realisation that he just wasn't as popular or respected as he thought seemed to really hurt him.

Rather have Young Towser back then Ghosty...Ali and Lewis both stop Foreman and Louis late.

The genius of PBF wrote:Rather have Young Towser back then Ghosty....

Not sure, did Towzer's ban details state that he might be allowed back if he stopped threatening to beat people up and refrain from using 'lol' in every sentence? If so, maybe that's something the mods could look in to.

Assume he means than?

Ali to get a UD over Louis

Every body on here is so built up with the way Foreman can close down the ring (which he can) but against Lewis it is against a completely different beast. He is coming up against a large athletic heavyweight with more skill then him an equal if not more punching power then him and a longer reach then him. I see everytime Foreman comes forward he's get a jab right hand or right hook right uppercut. he will get some success but can only see Lewis KO'ing / Stopping Foreman by 8

The Money Man wrote:Assume he means than?

I'd have thought so, yes.