Is Taller and Lighter the Way Forward?

Question for England fans, but anybody can feel free to chip in to the debate.

Does it bother you that England are starting to develop lighter more athletic second rowers like Courtney Lawes, Graham Kitchener, James Gaskell and Joe Launchbury as opposed to massive 19 stone bruisers like Simon Shaw, Martin Johnson and Danny Grewcock? Do you think that it simply the way the wind is blowing in international rugby? Or are England in danger of depowering themselves in the future?

It isn’t just in the boiler room either. There seems to be a swing towards taller, lighter and more willowy flankers too. I’m talking about players like Tom Croft, Tom Woods and Lewis Moody. Or players from recent Saxon sides like Jamie Gibson, Calum Clarke, and Tom Guest. At times I genuinely think the only player able to sustain quick and powerful go forward in the England back-row is the Brand. I think we have a dearth of (or refuse to pick) players that will break tackles or get over the gain. We also lack smaller more nuggety open sides that can get in over the ball. I’m thinking of players like Sean O’Brien, Stephen Ferris, Rocky Elsom, Richie McCaw, David Pocock and Sam Warburton.

Does anybody else see this as a problem?

Oh, and don’t get me started on props like Matt Mullan either!

Mobility and athelticism are more and more improtant in all positions, but lets not forget that Kennedy was ditched to revert to Shaw (and if you see him with his shirt off theres not an ounce of fat)
Moody is an old player so odd to bring him in, and far bigger than Neil Back.

If you want a backrow with a low center of gravity theres always Steffon Armitage who looks more like a weeble than a human. Pretty obvious which one of the brothers was first in the buffet queue.
Dont forget though that England have Easter in the backrow as the bulk, Haskell in as replacement for Moody, and gave Thomas (almost and anagram of stomach) Waldrom a chance to prove he was up to it.

Obviously it would be nice if Croft were 23 stone and just as fast and fit but he isnt. You cant pick what you dont have.

I'm not sure I'd describe Stephen Ferris as short and Nuggety? He's 6'4 and over 17 stone.

It's all about balance and the way you want to play. It looks like Johnson is going for bulk in the pack and midfield. That will make it very hard for teams to compete with England in a tight game but the flip side is that in a high tempo game the back row are not going to get around the pitch as quickly.

One thing I will say is that Haskell is not an openside and won't be able to compete with the likes of Pocock, Warburton, McCaw etc. when it comes to winning the ball on the deck.

It seems that Johnson has a gameplan though and it does seem to be working quite well even if it is predictable at times.

roddersm wrote:I'm not sure I'd describe Stephen Ferris as short and Nuggety? He's 6'4 and over 17 stone.

It's all about balance and the way you want to play. It looks like Johnson is going for bulk in the pack and midfield. That will make it very hard for teams to compete with England in a tight game but the flip side is that in a high tempo game the back row are not going to get around the pitch as quickly.

One thing I will say is that Haskell is not an openside and won't be able to compete with the likes of Pocock, Warburton, McCaw etc. when it comes to winning the ball on the deck.

It seems that Johnson has a gameplan though and it does seem to be working quite well even if it is predictable at times.

No, neither would I (damn my English!) what I meant when i was referring to Ferris is that he can break tackles and make ground under heavy pressure. It feels like I've seen England too often stopped on the gain line recently, especially when teams have fronted up against us (Wales in Cardiff in the recent warm-ups, S.A at Twickenham and the Argentina game just gone)

I suppose my main point is that England seem to be developing players who are more athletic but not quite as powerful as the players of old. It leads me to worry that without forward dominance and go forward we are going to be involved in more games like the Argentina one in the future.

Agree about the open side situation, we've got nobody to pinch the ball and end up having to soak up pressure until the opposition makes a mistake. More precise teams will punish us.

I think the England backrow that played in Dublin looked fairly balanced. I'm not sure why Johnson is so fixated by Easter. He's a good footballer when the England pack is on top but isn't athletic enough and doesn't do enough at the breakdown.

SA had a massive backrow and had problems against Wales and couldn't get to grips with Warburton. Ireland had the opposite problem against the USA and struggled to secure the ball against strong USA counterrucking and didn't commit enough numbers.

It's all about balance and adapting to the referee and what the opposition are doing. By the looks of it the referee's aren't going to be consistant at this WC, so the breakdown will be a bit of a lottery and teams will have to adapt quickly.

Courtney Lawes, Graham Kitchener, James Gaskell and Joe Launchbury are all light (relatively speaking !!) because they are still young. Over the coming seasons they will put on more and more bulk and probably slap on and extra stone each which is alot harder and slower to do for a tall lad. I remember it took dallagio a while to get up to his peak size and i think it was only when he did his knee that he had enough time to bulk.

My ex's dad works as strength and conditioning coach for a premiership club and one of his main jobs is to try and retain the muscle bulk on the players during the season. They spend the preseason getting them bigger and stronger and yet the number and intensity of games during the AP means that they lose bulk muscle mass over the season.

"Is Taller and Lighter the Way Forward?"

It was the way forward for the Scotland rugby team in the 1987 Five Nations Championship. Only problem was, there were no tall forwards who were over 6ft 6 around back then which the Scottish selectors could have chosen. Instead, Scotland that year had to make do with playing the 6ft 4 Iain Paxton whose normal position is that of a number 8 as a second row forward. The end result was that Scotland lost to England at Twickenham that year due to England's tall 6ft 7 second row Steve Bainbridge winning most of the lineout ball easily in that match.

boycott have you swallowed wikipedia?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:boycott have you swallowed wikipedia?

No, its just that I did watch the Five Nations back then and remembered the Scottish Coach Derrick Grant's attempts to get his team's forwards to play a fast and dynamic style of gameplan based on quick rucking and recycling of the ball for the scrum half to feed his backline.