Suitable land for golf?

First topic message reminder :

As the amount of suitable sites for golf courses disappears, in fact this may have already happened long ago, should we be starting to utilise sites not previously thought of as golfing land. After all we have come to accept the most unsuitable of sites such as potato fields and clay based soil as places to construct courses. So why not go mental and start building courses on sites previously used for industrial processes.

This has already been tried in the states with courses such as

Chambers bay (formerly a sand-and-gravel quarry) http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/chambersbay.asp?id=232&page=7996

Tobacco Road (old sand quarry) http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/golfcourse.html

The new Tom Doak and Bill Coore project in Florida http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=2489


I think these course look great and think it could be the way forward. With so much soil being moved in constructing new courses these days why not do it where you cannot ruin the land and probably need few permits? As trumps project as demonstrated it is no longer acceptable to build on links land in the uk, so we need somewhere to build courses. That is of course assuming we need more courses.

I would love to see or hear of other projects like this and what people make of these courses?

Is there a site you can think of that would be just right for this type of project?

Another thing I wonder is will using industrial land for golf courses bring us new architectural features not previously seen. As shotrock mentioned on another thread Mike Starnz (Tobacco Road) used some wacky stuff like 100 yard wide fairways.

The look of courses would certainly be very different if a lot of the industrial landscape was left as was. I like the idea of a course looking like it was built on an industrial site and not turned into a links like course.





Super

Of course the land has been formed by many uses over many years, but event this level of use over a large enough timescale can be viewed as natural. Suddenly shaping a golf course out of some ancient dunes cannot.

Also when the Tories fold in Scotland who will you vote for in the Scottish parliament elections?

In support of SR
There is an area of nearly 200 sq miles just south of where I live where the population equates to 9 per square mile.

When the tree huggers talk about overcrowding and concrete jungles I just shake my head.

Red Ed is more like a Red Herring.

Mac, why do you think I'm a Tory voter? Your attitude is typical of someone who votes Labour because they think they should and everyone who thinks differently to you must be a Tory

I won't vote in Scottish Parliamentary elections because I think the Scottish Parliament is the biggest waste of money I've ever seen.

You are probably one of these people who think the economy is down to the banking sector despite the fact your precious labour government spent £3 for every £2 that came in.

"Red Ed is more like a Red Herring."

Funny and made me laugh, but not really that funny if you think about the truth of the comment.

McLaren wrote:"Red Ed is more like a Red Herring."

Funny and made me laugh, but not really that funny if you think about the truth of the comment.

Oh god, what is it you are getting upset about now?

"You are probably one of these people who think the economy is down to the banking sector despite the fact your precious labour government spent £3 for every £2 that came in"

No, I have explained my theory on here before, I am sure you can find it somewhere. I blame the Regan, Thatcher, Bush Jr and Clinton administrations for the mess we got into.

As for voting labour I have also voted green in the past. Although I disagree strongly with the greens on energy policy and independence, I will admit is was an awful mistake I will not be making again.


The red ed comment

As in it was a funny joke, but it will not be funny when red ed ball's up the election should he make it that far and cameron wins again.

Mac, out of interest. Where do you stand on independence? For me it would be a disaster.

I did say in my last post

"Although I disagree strongly with the greens on energy policy and independence"

To make it clear the greens support independence, or at least they did, as I suppose they see smaller nations as more flexible and supportive of green technology. Not that I agree with that thinking by the way.

So no I do not support independence. In fact I would rather see us move to further integration with Europe. The current euro dept/bond crisis is not a reason to pull away from Europe. It was the structure and not the philosophy that was broken.

Im all for independance. Murray clearly isn't going to win a slam so I see no other reason for Scotland to stay as part of the UK......

The building of any new golf courses should be blocked, even Trumps new course should not have happened.

We have in this country to many golf courses and not enough golfers, so golf clubs are now finding it hard to break even, the effect of this is, that the courses are not as well maintained as they should be (due to lack of cash ) so do not get the visitors due to the poor conditions of the course to help the cash flow, we are now in fact on a downward spiral, and building any more new courses will just worsen matters

Survival of the fittest Op. The best run courses will survive and the poorest will go by the wayside (although I dont know any since ww2 that have ceased to exist)

Therefore in the long run we get better courses that are run more efficiently. Competition is good.

oldparwin wrote:The building of any new golf courses should be blocked, even Trumps new course should not have happened.

We have in this country to many golf courses and not enough golfers, so golf clubs are now finding it hard to break even, the effect of this is, that the courses are not as well maintained as they should be (due to lack of cash ) so do not get the visitors due to the poor conditions of the course to help the cash flow, we are now in fact on a downward spiral, and building any more new courses will just worsen matters

You could say that about the opening of the new Westfield centre in London on the same day inflation hits a record high. All the shops that are in that center are already in numerous places in and around London.........but herest he thing, people like going to new places and they are predicting nothing but huge sales figures for the centre just like the Westfields in West London.
People like new and people like different, so they should build new courses and older courses should close, thats the way off the world in all things really. its called survival of the fittest and nobody should be afraid of competition. Improve or go under.

Oh my god, I used the same phrase as SR when making the same point. Im just off to kill myself.......

I thought as golfers we hate change, just look at some of the so called traditional courses that people are to afraid to change (do not want to upset Doak ) look at the so called antiquated rule books that we try to interpret all the time. Lets spend more time trying to improve what we have got, before trying to build more.

Telling people not to build golf courses is like telling them not to open a shop or start a new business and why would you do or be allowed to do that?

If there is no incentive for courses to keep up with the competition then they get complacent about the condition of the course safe in the knowledge that visitors and members can't go anywhere else.
Therefore if more courses are built the ones which adapt best become the best and most efficiently run and the ones which don't fall by the wayside.

Golf Courses/Clubs are not a special case and if you've ever been involved in the financial section of the committee you'll know that despite outward appearances golf courses are run as legitimate businesses. There is still a balance sheet to adhere to and an income and expenditure column to balance.

More courses can also be good for the economy of certain areas. Courses like Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and the forthcoming Trump course have/will bring many more tourists to areas as it gives an extra reason to visit areas which already have good courses. They have enhanced rather than dlute the golf of these areas.

Super

I know my memory is not all that good, but did you not on the old 606, castigate Trump for building his golf course to the determent of local people, I know their was a crowd of us saying that local people were being bullied by Trump.

Now are you saying his course will be good for the local people, I mean at a £150 per round what do the local people do, they can afford to pay that???

Will he employ local people and pay the going rate? or is he more likely to ship in foreign workers and pay them a pittance for working long hours. His customer will probable be whisked in to the hotel and spent all their time in the hotel or on the course, I am sure they will never get the opportunity to meet any of the locals.( I know that if they are intending to spend any money it must within the Trump fraternity)

When local people are railroaded by local government chasing the dollar, it is always the local people who give up so much to receive absolutely nothing.

OP, it must be your dotage I'm afraid, I've always been in favour of the development and thought the opposition to be more in regard to their dislike of Trump rather than the development itself.

Of course the course will be good for local people, or more specifically local businesses who will benefit from the additional trade. Local golfers who can afford to play it probably will, those who can't obviously won't. This isn't Cuba and Communism isn't the political system we live under so there it isn't necessary that it's affordable to everyone in the area.
I'd like to play Muirfield or Wentworth, but I can't justify the price. Should I be given cheap green fees simply because of where I live? It's an absurd assumption simply because other courses do it.


£150 is a pretty fair price should the course turn out to be the World Class course as anticipated, and the progress pictures on the website certainly look promising.

As for will he employ local people? That's irrelevant as virtually every other business in the area will have a mixture of local and foreign workers.
Do you give factories and service industries a hard time for employing foreign labour or do you still enjoy cheap hotel rooms and conveniently forget that someone is being paid less than a UK worker whilst you sleep.

I think it's hilarious that people are acting like this is some sort of government led conspiracy to ruin the lives of local people. It's not a Nazi Concentration Camp, people will still have freedom of movement, they aren't captive on the development. He might even let them out to play Royal Aberdeen, Deeside, Cruden Bay, Murcar, Newburgh on Ythan, so long as they are back to spend their money in his development.

In addition to the people building and running the course, local shops, tradesmen, hotels, catering establishments, supermarkets and other local courses will benefit.
Take your tinfoil hat off OP for heavens sake.

Iceland has a longer coastline that GB? Really?

Davie, I was referring to Scotland.

Super

How can local people afford to pay £150 per round of golf, even if it is a world class course????.
Not sure what is meant by world class???, the other thing against it, is the local climate, I would imagine it would be unplayable for at least 3 months of each year. Yep it totally amuses me, but I can tell you it will never be on my list of must play courses

Super

If Trump is spending millions of dollars on a golf complex the last thing he wants is, his customers money being spend elsewhere, he will make sure all moneys spend goes into his pocket, he will not give a tot about local business, his deals will probable all inclusive, so his customers will not even leave the complex.

To bring the trump debate a little more on topic can we agree the site he chose was totally unsuitable for being turned into a golf course?

Mac


Well said totally agree

Op

There is an awful lot of rich folk in the Aberdeen area.

Doon

Lets say you play once a week for 40 weeks of the year that's £6000 per year, yep must be a lot of ordinary rich folk about in the area.

Mac, the land is absolutely perfect for building a golf course on. Some of the finest courses in Scotland are built on such sites.

The fact you deem it an inappropriate site is irrelevant.

OP, do you have any good courses round your area? Do they make the customers captive? Seriously, If I went to Wentworth I can buy a round, I don't have to stay in one of their hotels and buy Trump branded goods and services. Is there the slightest bit of evidence to show that to play this course you have to stay in his hotels, wear a trump branded wig, play with Trump clubs, arrive by trump chauffeur in a Trump car and play with Trump Pro V1?

Do you also not know that Aberdeen is one of the most affluent areas of the UK, fair enough there are poorer people like everywhere else, but there are poor people every where who can't afford to do everything they like. We don't live in a socialist utopian where everyone gets what they want on a plate. I'd like an Aston Martin, but if I want one I have to pay for it, I don't expect to be given one cut price.

As Brian Potter would say "I'd like to moonwalk son, but life's a sh1thouse"
You really do have your tinfoil hat on today.

OP, like Kingsbarns or Castle Stewart it's not intended as a play every week club, but even if you did do that it would still be cheaper than the likes of Stoke Park, Woburn or Wentworth. Are you campaigning for cheaper green fees for locals there too?
The way you are writing it's as if locals have no other choice but to play there. There are at least 20 courses within a 30 minute drive.

All Trump has done is create a new market. No one is forced to play there or pay the green fee. If you don't want to play it you don't have to. What's the problem?

Op
Some were happy to pay £30k a year at Loch Lomond.

The way people are going on, it's as if people think he's bought every golf course in Aberdeenshire, closed them down and is forcing people to pay £150 every week for a game of golf. Even at the non residents rate of £200 a round it's still cheaper than the £360 it costs to play the West at Wentworth.
I've looked at the Trump website and you can book a tee time now, but no one is making you take an "all inclusive" deal with hotel etc so the big bad Trump is perhaps not the big bad Trump that you are hoping.
There's world class courses worldwide that don't offer locals any reduction. Trump is giving a reduction. £120/£160 for weekday/weekend compared to £150/200 so what's wrong with that. TOC is £150 for everyone who isn't a member, no weekday reduction and no reduction for locals who aren't members (and you cannot join at present). Trumps course is cheaper for locals of Aberdeenshire and will undoubtedly be better than TOC.

He's creating a new niche in the area, it's no different from some tw@t of a celebrity chef opening up a highly regarded but perceived to be overpriced restaurant. No one is making you eat there as there are plenty of other options available across the price scale, and just because you live near, doesn't mean you should get the a la carte menu for the price of a fish supper.

You'll pay several thousand pounds for a very average golf club in many parts of England that many golfers from Scotland would laugh at the quality of, yet no one is bumping their gums or crying foul at the price of them.

Doon the Water wrote:Op
Some were happy to pay £30k a year at Loch Lomond.

Your point is valid, but membership at Loch Lomond was no where near £30k a year.