Is being religious good or bad for Boxers???

Yes
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1. It can make you not worry about dying and let you go the extra yard
2. Make you more disciplined in life generally..
3. Can make you more goal-focused.

No
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1. Might make you feel when you are under the kosh (like that word) that it's God's will you are destined o lose..
2. Might make you lack the killer-instinct....
3. Make you more likely to be duped by unscrupulous people.......because you tend to see the good in people more..or you are supposed too anyway!!

Sure are other arguments to be made but is being religious generally a good or bad thing for Boxers..

Irrelevant. Holyfield is an example where it may have helped, but you can have determination without religion, and there are probably religious quitters.

Bad, it sometimes makes them really cross.

I sealed my playground legacy with a 4-0-0 (2 KO) record, and i didn't fight for god.

How many boxers are religious? Not a huge amount.

Not sure god stopped Holyfield for trying to knock Tysons head off (among others)

It's not like boxers are obsessed terrorists where having a warped mind can have dodgy results

Again, simply far too much of a 'horses for courses' issue for anyone to decisively say either way, I reckon. Yeah, Holyfield says his faith in God helped him get through his many tough fights. At the same time, Ali's religion contributed to him losing his world title and three years of his career, and the three years which may well have been his best, to boot. Great, religion helped Big George 'find himself.' It also prompted his (first) retirement from the sport at a young age, robbing us of a Holmes-Foreman showdown which is still hotly speculated on to this day.

I'm sure it helps in some cases. I'm equally as sure it hinders in others. Far too subjective and personal a matter for anyone to say with assurance that it's either good or bad for boxers.

We did this back on old606 - and it ended up as a 3 week long debate on the existence or non-existence of God. I remember, I was still there when the beeb closed it down.

The answer is it can go both ways. Lots of athletes feel religion helps - ie Ali, Holyfield etc. There will be plenty who disagree.

Pretty sure it was in the run-up to Lewis-Holyfield 2 - when Lewis pointed out why God wouldn't be in his corner - after Holyfield went on about it being a divine mission to KO Lewis.
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On a different note - these debates on the old beeb were a nightmare in terms of abuse. So lets keep things clean shall we? New forum, new start?

Please understand many people will hold deeply held beliefs pertaining to this topic - so try to avoid offence with your posts.

coxy0001 wrote:How many boxers are religious? Not a huge amount.

Bradley, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Hopkins, Kessler, Martinez,

I could go on, of course - include old timers like Ali, Foreman, Holyfield, or prospects like Fury.

Anyways - there are plenty of religious boxers - and then there are those who really push their religion forward at you - I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

oxring wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:How many boxers are religious? Not a huge amount.

I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

Andre Ward? He is the Son of God don't you know.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:How many boxers are religious? Not a huge amount.

I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

Andre Ward? He is the Son of God don't you know.

I've never really got that. Not a nickname for the ages.

We are all children of God.

oxring wrote:there are those who really push their religion forward at you - I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

Very true. That post-fight interview after Tyson I was cringe-worthy. Have no problem with anyone who has a deep belief in God and the teachings of Jesus, none at all. In fact, I respect those who have the discipline to model their lives around it. But Christ Almighty (sorry), it doesn't half rile me up when they talk of nothing but that.

Scottrf wrote:We are all children of God.

Cheers Scott. Thanks for that.

oxring wrote:

Scottrf wrote:We are all children of God.

Cheers Scott. Thanks for that.

Alhamdulillah.

88Chris05 wrote:

oxring wrote:there are those who really push their religion forward at you - I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

Very true. That post-fight interview after Tyson I was cringe-worthy. Have no problem with anyone who has a deep belief in God and the teachings of Jesus, none at all. In fact, I respect those who have the discipline to model their lives around it. But Christ Almighty (sorry), it doesn't half rile me up when they talk of nothing but that.

Controversial - but I let people off after fights.

Certainly - in terms of Judo - first thing I do when win/lose is offer up a quick prayer - and a quick prayer before you fight. For me - I'm in a sport where I could be strangled to unconsciousness (and people have been strangled further) or have my arm broken. Or land on my neck and end up paraplegic (again, its happened). So I thank God for bringing me through safely or pray that He'll keep family etc safe in my absence.

As such - when you see Mayweather, for instance - taking the first opportunity post-fight to thank God for giving him the skills to win/ or whatever I kind of understand.

Its not a very British thing to do. Don't see many British boxers doing it - and it doesn't tend to go down too well with UK fans. Remember after Bradley-Witter - the backlash directed against Bradley for "Thank you Jesus" post fight?

Course - if you're saying that God is going to bring you to victory and cause you to smash the usurper Lewis - there's something not quite right about that in my opinion.

I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Someone obvioulsy ripped the flyer you were reading

bhb001 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Someone obvioulsy ripped the flyer you were reading

Topical though. Has a famous boxer in it.

oxring wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

oxring wrote:there are those who really push their religion forward at you - I don't think there's been anyone like Holyfield for that - not recently anyway.

Very true. That post-fight interview after Tyson I was cringe-worthy. Have no problem with anyone who has a deep belief in God and the teachings of Jesus, none at all. In fact, I respect those who have the discipline to model their lives around it. But Christ Almighty (sorry), it doesn't half rile me up when they talk of nothing but that.

Controversial - but I let people off after fights.

Certainly - in terms of Judo - first thing I do when win/lose is offer up a quick prayer - and a quick prayer before you fight. For me - I'm in a sport where I could be strangled to unconsciousness (and people have been strangled further) or have my arm broken. Or land on my neck and end up paraplegic (again, its happened). So I thank God for bringing me through safely or pray that He'll keep family etc safe in my absence.

As such - when you see Mayweather, for instance - taking the first opportunity post-fight to thank God for giving him the skills to win/ or whatever I kind of understand.

Its not a very British thing to do. Don't see many British boxers doing it - and it doesn't tend to go down too well with UK fans. Remember after Bradley-Witter - the backlash directed against Bradley for "Thank you Jesus" post fight?

Course - if you're saying that God is going to bring you to victory and cause you to smash the usurper Lewis - there's something not quite right about that in my opinion.

What you do (or seem to do by your account here) is fine, Oxring. But when the interviewer is having to practically beg the interviewee to talk about something other than boxing, there's a problem. And like you, I find this idea that God could favour one of his children over another, as Holyfield often seemed to suggest, a pretty poor one. That said, I'm not a religious man at all myself, so won't profess to have any basis more reliable than my (some would say) very uneducated mind!

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Very droll Tino. Although I'm pretty sure it was Red Dwarf waiting for God.

Anyway - you take the religious, rather than the Freudian/Jungian/cold war interprotation of waiting for Godot?

I thought he just had a really odd dream and wrote it down and then some critic turned up and analysed it as genius.

88Chris05 wrote:What you do (or seem to do by your account here) is fine, Oxring. But when the interviewer is having to practically beg the interviewee to talk about something other than boxing, there's a problem. And like you, I find this idea that God could favour one of his children over another, as Holyfield often seemed to suggest, a pretty poor one. That said, I'm not a religious man at all myself, so won't profess to have any basis more reliable than my (some would say) very uneducated mind!

Fair point Chris. Suppose that if people have paid to watch you fight - they do expect that you might have the kindness to explain what happened afterwards.

Anyone want to tell me why comments keep disappearing?

Snippets of banter not allowed anymore?

God doesn't give you superpowers anyway, if you can't get yourself up for fighting for yourself and need some possibly fictional guy to help you along then it's all a bit sad

oxring wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Very droll Tino. Although I'm pretty sure it was Red Dwarf waiting for God.

Anyway - you take the religious, rather than the Freudian/Jungian/cold war interprotation of waiting for Godot?

I thought he just had a really odd dream and wrote it down and then some critic turned up and analysed it as genius.

To be honest Oxy, I just wanted to get Vladimir (it's spelt with a V in Boston) into the conversation again.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I'm with Samuel Beckett on this one. He was waiting for God wasn't he?

Very droll Tino. Although I'm pretty sure it was Red Dwarf waiting for God.

Anyway - you take the religious, rather than the Freudian/Jungian/cold war interprotation of waiting for Godot?

I thought he just had a really odd dream and wrote it down and then some critic turned up and analysed it as genius.

To be honest Oxy, I just wanted to get Vladimir (it's spelt with a V in Boston) into the conversation again.

Very impressed.

Oxy

Bearing in mind you've made a re-appearance and my comments suddenly start going m.i.a. can you please enlighten me as to why?

Also you're the only mod around so i'm going to ask/question/blame you

You know the drill coxy, pm explanations only.

PM on its way for you now.

I would, however, take this opportunity to mention that if a comment is removed I ALWAYS take the opportunity to explain by pm.

oxring wrote:Please understand many people will hold deeply held beliefs pertaining to this topic - so try to avoid offence with your posts.

Balti - did I write this because I needed to exercise my fingers? Perhaps its meaning wasn't clear.

When I said try to avoid offence - I meant avoid offence or your posts will be removed.

Hope that's clear enough for you now.

Come on now Oxring did you really expect the usual suspects to behave themselves on a thread that they could mock something...

Tut tut

Didn't read that bit. I'm sure any religious sorts will act accordingly and offer forgiveness and prayer for any perceived misgivings on my part.

There's people like Pacquiao, McCloskey (I believe) and Adamek who are Catholic. There's a faith which has spread lies about the dangers of HIV and AIDS, whose officials have for years covered up instances of the most vile abuse of children, and whose inaction during the second World War flies in the face of any supposed humanitarian mission statement. That's BEFORE we get into the rule-bending around the canonisation process and the exploitation of the poor. Oh, and for a faith which preaches against contraception their employment of one Bernardino Nogara.

Interesting article. Clicky-click.

They not only invested in contraceptive manufacture, but also helped finance the Italian campaign in Ethiopia and abused their privileged position during WWII to fill their own coffers.

I'd go on to the other main religions, but the bell's gone and I'm the last one here. To put it briefly though; I haven't seen much-if indeed anything-to convince me that religion is a power for any kind of good that cannot be achieved without it.

In fact, here's one for the resident loony to wrap his brain cell around:

Boxer Manny Pacquiao joins Catholic opposition to reproductive health bill

To quote from the article:

Manila, Philippines, May 19, 2011 / 05:57 am .- Champion boxer Manny Pacquiao has sided with the Philippines’ Catholic bishops in a continuing controversy over a reproductive health bill that would fund access to free contraceptives.

Pacquiao said he would never have been born or become an international boxing champion if his poor, unemployed parents practiced birth control.

“God said go forth and multiply. He did not say go and have just one or two children,” the boxer said after a May 17 meeting with officials of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines.

Considering his country is one stricken with poverty and unemployment he should think more carefully before he speaks.

Meanwhile large scale atheism has given us such luminaries as Stalin, Mao and the Khmer Rouge.

There are examples of hypocrisy and double standards in most large scale organisations.

In fact - go the other way - find me a figure or organisation who is beyond criticism. Who has not been rebuked at all?

PS - the faith is Christianity - the denomination is Catholicism.

Look, if you can't pick me up on something other than a minor technicality don't bother. Stalin didn't do the things he did BECAUSE he didn't believe in god. That's a bit different from Muslims flying 'planes into buildings and Christians spreading lies that cost lives because they think that's what their particular brand of lunacy demands. Not to mention the Crusades...

Here's a thought: how can someone as religious as Pacquiao justify pursuing the occupation he has when the sole aim is to inflict pain on another?

Why, when Holyfield wins is it because 'god' willed it? Religion in boxing is no different to having lucky socks. It's the placebo effect. No more, no less.

Religion has caused an awful lot of trouble in this World.

I believe in God..when you're married as long as me you just hope there is another place after this one!

BALTIMORA wrote:Look, if you can't pick me up on something other than a minor technicality don't bother. Stalin didn't do the things he did BECAUSE he didn't believe in god. That's a bit different from Muslims flying 'planes into buildings and Christians spreading lies that cost lives because they think that's what their particular brand of lunacy demands. Not to mention the Crusades...

Here's a thought: how can someone as religious as Pacquiao justify pursuing the occupation he has when the sole aim is to inflict pain on another?

Why, when Holyfield wins is it because 'god' willed it? Religion in boxing is no different to having lucky socks. It's the placebo effect. No more, no less.

I'm pretty sure shooting priests and those involved with them - (eg parents caught christening their children) was done secondary to their atheism.

The argument that "religion causes ill" is old and relatively weak anyway. For a start - there is the arbiter counter - that observes that for said events to be deemed wrong their is a logical requirement for an external arbitration of right and wrong. No God, no external arbitration. (Look it up). Furthermore, from a utilitarian perspective - one has to estimate things in balance. Does religion cause more harm than good? This is a subjective - and cannot ever be proved either way.

Thirdly and more important there is a difference from religion and God. Even if religion were to be the source of nothing but ill - it does not make existence of a divine being more or less likely.

So. On balance - you have accused religious people of being soft minded, cited a list of imperfect examples of religion causing ill - refused to debate in a reasonable fashion. Have I missed something?

Oxy, you're like a man with two brains.

I dropped out of university as deep down, I knew I was too thick to justify the time and expense. If it wasn't for my fantastic job, brilliant kids and awesome wife, you would make me feel very inferior.

Anyway, I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I get home.

Yours sincerely,
Tito.

There is no good thing achieved through religious means that could not be achieved without. I didn't say that religion and religious people are responsible solely for harmful acts. My point is that too many people have used their faith as a shield, as a cover to hide behind. Sure, there are good and bad people on either side of the divide, but to seriously think that whispering a prayer has any real effect on anything is ridiculous and not an idea which should be entertained by anyone with an ounce of intelligence.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Oxy, you're like a man with two brains.

I dropped out of university as deep down, I knew I was too thick to justify the time and expense. If it wasn't for my fantastic job, brilliant kids and awesome wife, you would make me feel very inferior.

Anyway, I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I get home.

Yours sincerely,
Tito.

I try to avoid using this too much, but you have truly made me ROFL. Worthy of a

In my mouldy student house, arguing with student administrators, in £40-50,000 of debt (I stopped counting at 30. What's £10,000 between friends?) I feel suitably glad that I did this for 6 years, instead of looking for a fantastic job, some kids and a suitably awesome wife (although the gf is more than adequate).

Last bit put in in case she ever reads this, in which case my Love sacks would be grass and she would be a combine harvester.

oxring wrote:

In fact - go the other way - find me a figure or organisation who is beyond criticism. Who has not been rebuked at all?

Modesty prevents me from doing so.

Millions and millions of dollars are raised every year by ministries throughout the States in the fight to alleviate poverty and sickness around the World.....

That's not money that can be raised elsewhere!!

You make some valid points but go too far...

oxring wrote:Certainly - in terms of Judo - first thing I do when win/lose is offer up a quick prayer - and a quick prayer before you fight. For me - I'm in a sport where I could be strangled to unconsciousness (and people have been strangled further) or have my arm broken. Or land on my neck and end up paraplegic (again, its happened). So I thank God for bringing me through safely or pray that He'll keep family etc safe in my absence.
Course - if you're saying that God is going to bring you to victory and cause you to smash the usurper Lewis - there's something not quite right about that in my opinion.

So I haven't an ounce of intelligence Balti?

We should, therefore, prove that there is nothing to prayer.

Evidence in the 90s suggested that blinded prayer decreased healing times in hospital. Recent RCT suggested no benefit - but if the patient knew that they were being prayed for they did worse. Does this prove anything? Not really - the study selections in both (especially the more recent randomised controlled trial) were pretty woeful.

As such - the evidence is more than a little patchy. So we return to the subjective - and what we ourselves think.

A wise man (not me - I'm not that arrogant) once said - (and I like this - eminently quotable):

"When I stop praying, coincidence stops happening".

Which sums things up relatively well. The statement has no impact upon truth - as truth in this is irrelevant. However - suggesting that only the "weak minded" would pray is highly patronising. As well as being obviously and blatantly factually inaccurate - as all I need to do is present you with 1 person who is clearly not weak minded who does pray (I'll use Professor John Lennox - dual Oxford University fellow for Mathematics and Theology) and your argument is invalid.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Millions and millions of dollars are raised every year by ministries throughout the States in the fight to alleviate poverty and sickness around the World.....

That's not money that can be raised elsewhere!!

You make some valid points but go too far...

Sure they've raised a lot of money, but to put that into context David Walliams raised over a million quid swimming down the Thames within the last week. It wasn't a religious cause or appeal, just some rubbish comedian.

Oxy, really I don't care who you cite. Praying to god makes as much difference as praying to your front door. That Professor Lennox is intelligent is no proof that he's not soft between the ears and prone to irrational behaviour.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I dropped out of university as deep down, I knew I was too thick to justify the time and expense. If it wasn't for my fantastic job, brilliant kids and awesome wife, you would make me feel very inferior.

As a mature student I quote something I read the other day "At age 30+ success is still being single with no screaming brats to clean up after and spending your Sunday mornings chilling from the night before rather then being dragged around B&Q or IKEA looking at units and other boring stuff and wondering at what point your life became so mundane"

Class

Why are so anti-religion Balti...?

You're oozing contempt..

BALTIMORA wrote:Oxy, really I don't care who you cite. Praying to god makes as much difference as praying to your front door. That Professor Lennox is intelligent is no proof that he's not soft between the ears and prone to irrational behaviour.

Dear Balti - please try to debate in a reasonable fashion.

Many times - you have complained about a certain poster refusing to use or see logic.

Yet what is this? You seem to be refusing to debate on sound logical principles?

You assert that: "Praying to god makes as much difference as praying to your front door".

That is an assertion. You will be unable to present me with evidence to back that up. Its an un-testable assertion and logically invalid.

I would like some definition of "soft between the ears". Clearly - being widely respected as a leading thinker and academic - does not make one hard-between-the-eared. (What's that btw? Hard-headed?)

Are you claiming this hard-between-the-ears status for yourself Balti? If so, please do ask yourself - why? What makes you different/more clear thinking than him.

A lot of my friends from school hate the fact im 30+ dont believe in marriage and never wants any brats

They look at me with their fat wifes, ugly children, boring lifes and think "I cant process it". Well no, you never will, just sit back and enjoy the show

You're 30????

You do surprise me...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're 30????

You do surprise me...

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

I'd always assumed Steffan was my age. Like Rhys Ifans' character in Twin Town. http://www.imdb.com/media/rm4247689216/tt0120394

To be fair, I still think of him as Rhys Ifans' character in Twin Town. Just older.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're 30????

You do surprise me...

30 plus...but in the early stages

Going on 18 mind

Im one of those 21st century blokes who still likes my followed by a bit of and then trying to get a bit of and the next morning is met by a bit of weekend kinda guy

Good stuff Oxy,

Some of the most well reasoned and logical posts I've ever read on here.

You're not a medic by any chance are you?

A lot of doctor-speak filtering through.

The barmaid in my local thought I was about 25 to be fair. I look young and act it. Shes 19...should I ask her or not. What you reckon fellas?