Who should Wales pick to face the Samoans and what are our chances?

First topic message reminder :

personally i would go for the same starting 15 again but i'd bring Stephen Jones and Gethin Jenkins onto the bench and possibly bring them on for the last 15 - 20mins of the game before giving them both a start against Namibia the week after for some much needed game time, i would also do the same with most of the players on the bench such as Knoyle and Bradley Davies.

I think the Samoans pose a big threat to our chances in this World Cup they've played some good Rugby over the past 12 months and have really improved as a team, i just hope Wales are'nt putting to much pressure on themselves by treating each game as a knock-out game, because if the pressure gets to the players its likely more mistakes could be made and we could be in danger of pressing the self-destruct button as we did in 07, aslong as the players go out there and stick to their game-plan, starve the Samoans of possession as much as possible im confident that this group of players are good enough to win by two clear scores or more, we just need to get settled early

Any news on Pisi ?

Cymroglan wrote:Any news on Pisi ?

Sadly no, I have been looking around though

He is a key player for them.

One point - many posters, me included, though Priestland and Hook would alternate at 10/15 vs. the Boks. It never happened, in fact Hook played a very traditional full-back role, hardly coming into the line at all. This may be a tribute to the Boks quality - stopping them scoring is more important than being creative. But it's going to be different agaisnt Samoa. They are quality too, but a different kind. I think kicking for position could be MORE important this time as hopefully we'll have more strength in the line-out.

Quick question and it saves me looking at the stats.
We all know the Samoans are bulky but how do they compare in height with our jumpers ?

Full name Kane Gregory Thompson
Date of birth 9 January 1982 (age 29)
Place of birth Wellington, New Zealand
Height 198 cm (6 ft 6 in)
Weight 112 kg (17 st 9 lb)

Full name Daniel Leo
Date of birth October 2, 1982 (age 28)
Place of birth Duniden, New Zealand
Height 6 ft 6 in (1.98 m)
Weight 17 st 8 lbs (112 kg)

Alyn I asked for stats for the next game we play not the final.

Oh they play for Samoa

AlynDavies wrote:15 Lee Bryne - We need someone who can take a beating.
14 George North
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts - inside center, crash ball
11 Shane Williams
10 James Hook - Has to be fly Half, we can't have him running into gaps.
9 Mike Phillips
8 Toby Faletau
7 Sam Warburton
6 Dan Lydiate
5 Alun-Wyn Jones
4 Bradley Davies - would rather his aggression over Charteris line out skills.
3 Adam Jones
2 Huw Bennett
1 Paul James

16 Gethin Jenkins
17 Ken Owens
18 Craig Mitchell
19 Luke Charteris
20 Andy Powell
21 Tavis Knoyle
22 Stephen Jones

So Alyn/Samurai/GlamorganAlun

What you are advocating is that in perhaps the most important game in the last 4 yrs for Wales, against a physical very fast side, and there will be very little space to operate in.

1. You bring in a currently very "off form" 15, who has had what half a game and played very poorly in it.
2. You leave out arguably the currently best offensive and creative 10 you have.
3. You leave out a very good winger who has been training as cover for 15.

All this to accomodate a player who is very much second best to the current player occupying the flyhalf position, and the last competitive game at 10 in the 6Ns was as poor a performance as you could get.

Beggars belief.
Lets hope Gatand sees sense at least. If you play that first 15 you may as well be packing your bags home

Flyhalf:

We at 60% ball against SA and we lost, we kick too much good ball away and often don't look at the overlaps. I thought Preistland had a good game aginst SA and the warm up games he is much better than his club mate but that is not saying much mainly, kick off's, long clearance kicks and they genrally go where he wants them to go but he is not a great threat in attack. I am looking beyond the group stages where we need a little more hence we must get Bryne game time as he is our best option at FB, Hook is a useful FB but he does not run the lines in attack and showed is positional sense for the first try against SA. Hook should play 10 but I don't have a problem in the centre and priestland at 10, Hook replacing JD2. Jon Davies had a couple of good runs but he is easily stepped has poor hands and his passing is showing signs of improvement but still not great. I think he is a replacement for Roberts but I accept playing with Roberts he not going to see much of the ball and the wings see less. It will be nice to see the ball go across the backs from time to time as well as the crash ball.

Remeber we lost against SA and you would expect us to win with that amount of ball, e.g., England we had very little ball and soon as Hook moved to 10 what happened? We can't afford to have game breakers on the bench like Bryne (off form), Hook, Shane, North and Roberts.

Flyhalf:

You keep referring to the France game in France, how many teams win there, you choose to ignore recent Scotland (game won when Hook went off), Ireland, England (second half game won after he moved to 10), and Argentina again Hook played 10. It may be strange to you but I like to win games after many games of putting up with a poor flyhalf you seem to worship for his game management which has not been very successful as results prove.

I was encouraged with the way we played (mainly the forwards) but there is a lot Wales can improve on both selection and tactics moving forward.

Flyhalf,

The wales online team selection (Western Mail), not quite the team I would choose but not too bad IMO:

People's Wales XV v Samoa

L Halfpenny, George North, J Roberts, J Hook, S Williams, R Priestland, M Phillips, P James, H Bennett, A Jones, L Charteris, AW Jones, D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/09/15/revealed-the-people-s-rugby-world-cup-wales-xv-to-face-samoa-91466-29429496/#ixzz1Y3Soa4gB

Alun

I'll give it to you one more (this must be the 5th ot 6th time), what happened in Edinburgh.

Scotland had their worst game for probably 15 yrs against Wales. We were asleep for the first 25 mins, Hook played probably the best 25 mins of his career at 10, after that we woke up .............. simple we used the blindside and I/C and Hook was tucked thereafter, he progressively went to pieces and was hauled off after 65mins, if we had taken the chances he had given us we would have scored 2 maybe 3 tries. When the Ginger monster came down to highlight he was going off..... we had got back to 10 points and that even with aborting three certain tries. Jones comes on once again having to steady a creaking ship, and you know what he did next ........... massive tackle to push us back some 10 metres, moment and confidence regained, and game over. So NO!! TWENTY FIVE MINUTES is not a good advert to say he will win you games, he wont!. Argentinian game he made two good runs !!!! is that all a flyhalf does??.

The reason I mention the France match is
1. It is the most recent competitive match Hook played at 10,
2. It stands out as the text book way not to play in the 10 channel.

and to compare.........Just a few weeks after that you would have seen Stephen Jones orchestrating two ML matches that saw his region score EIGHT (thats 8) tries in two matches and play with such applomb and exhilarating link play it was a pleasure to see. That is what you call a creative player, might not be a healine grabbing runner, but certainly can orchestrate creative play.

So lets go a bit more recent then
Analyse the most recent 3 warm up matches to see who was the better 10, I would say only the most blindly biased would put Hook as the better half back. Priestland was more creative, stronger running, better organisation....... Hook tried to be more structured, positioned better, and was defensively sound but he as a result lost all creativity, and apart from the close try he scored did very little to suggest he is the mercurial player that you have so regularly promoted. If I am incorrect then give me instances

It was quite clear the Wales were much more attack minded in the game at Twickenham, and the first half in Cardiff.

However I am sure Gatland will want to win ............. that means using the 15 players as a unit, linking play, creating opportunities, not been turned over and giving 3 pts away or worse still 7 pts, and defending well.

Nothing you have said has convinced me Hook is anything but an opportunist, a destructive runner with a world class hand off.

Just my opinion but if Mr G plays James at 10, you will get beaten soundly

glamorganalun wrote:Flyhalf,

The wales online team selection (Western Mail), not quite the team I would choose but not too bad IMO:

People's Wales XV v Samoa

L Halfpenny, George North, J Roberts, J Hook, S Williams, R Priestland, M Phillips, P James, H Bennett, A Jones, L Charteris, AW Jones, D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/09/15/revealed-the-people-s-rugby-world-cup-wales-xv-to-face-samoa-91466-29429496/#ixzz1Y3Soa4gB

I would play 1/2p for his seige gun left peg and his destructive runs. Like I said the only difference is that I would keep Jon Davies in, Roberts is playing superb with him.

Cymroglan wrote:Any news on Pisi ?

The RWC app says Pisi is the biggest doubt. The flanker Tuifua "has a strong chance of playing".

Agree with flyhalf with his criticisms of Hook. However, it's a case of choosing the imperfect player, because we do not have a Dan Carter. In fact, there is probably no other 10 in the world, including Cooper, who doesn't have an evident weaker side of his game.

Stephen Jones; still underrated by some, unfortunately. He brings leadership, direction and a solidity that no other ten in Wales, and most tens in the world, bring. Brilliant offensive player in terms of creating space and moves for others. Likes a high tempo game, playing on the gainline, marshalling the forwards and backs into a multi-ruck, intense game. Great passing ability, bettered only by Carter and Cooper IMO; passing is more than just a flashy offload, as Stoddart's try against England showed, an inch perfect pass can put a player through. Very good goalkicker, underrated again, regularly scores from both touchlines, however I feel it might be stylistically as much as anything that he isn't considered a good kicker. Very good defender as well, positionally and technique. Fond of, and effective with, the cross field kick: North has profitted from this a lot.

His weaknesses are clear. He is slow. He will not go through a gap, even though he can read them, and whilst he can put his centres through when he sees them, he cannot go through himself. This, in turn, makes defences drift earlier, knowing they can cover (this could be countered with another play, Hook, coming into first receiver sporadically from 15, keeping the defence guessing). Does tend to miss what some may consider 'easy' kicks, or at least mid level kicks. However, as shown this weekend, which kicker doesn't? Not a massive range of boot, both out of hand and from tee. Also, age and injury seem to have combined to mean he's missed a lot more rugby in the last two years than he has in the past.

James Hook; strengths are clear. Genuinely one of the few world class players in terms of being able to do it on his own from nothing. Seen many times, his jinking and stepping ability is up there with Cooper. Massive boot, often highly effective, from both hand and tee. Can win a match with one moment of class.

What makes him brilliant can also make him a liability; France being the best example. Has suffered from not being given an extended opportunity in one position (10) to iron out the creases in terms of decision making. Defence, and mostly tackling, is poor, despite having bulked up in recent years. The boot is usually solid, but Saturday showed he can be prone to errors, kicking out on full, and missing mid range kicks. Perhaps the assumption that he's a better kicker than SJ comes from the fact he looks aesthetically better, using the instep and booting it well over the posts, whereas SJ opts for more of a punt style. Hasn't played at ten for a string of games for nearly two years.

Rhys Priestland; the incumbent and, frankly, would be hard done by to lose the shirt. The best ten in Wales last season, should have taken over in the 6N when SJ was injured if Gatland had been fair, with Hook not having played 10 for ages. Going from the emotional wreck he was two years ago, where one missed kick would destory his composure, he had the demeanour of a 30+ cap international against SA. Kept the backline ticking along nicely, fed the midfield well. Good pass, great kicking ability, sent one penalty 80 metres to the SA 22 at one key point. Good goalkicker as well, though perhaps best to let someone else to have the duty at this stage of his career in case the jitters come back. Good breaker, can find the gaps and when they open up, invariably needs someone on his shoulder to offload to to have a clean break, so more effective than SJ, but less so than Hook. Very good understanding with JD2 and the other Scarlets back, unfortunately Stoddart being one of the best. Able to play 15 as well.

A weakness is his inexperience, not his age, because, at 24, he's not young, but he seems to have crammed in about 4-5 years of progression into two years since he first broke through into the Scarlets team. Inexperience perhaps shown by the DG attempt, although his decision making has been highly composed in the games he's played, both against England and SA. Not a great defender, and perhaps, again due to inexperience, could still have his game fall apart if put under intense pressure. Difficult to say anymore, due to having played so few games.





So, in summary, it's dificult; it really is a three horse race. SJ has to be on the bench as a minimum for me, because of the leadership and guiding voie he brings to what is, still, a young team. Understand the desire to have Hook on the pitch, but feel that it should be either 10, 12 or 13. In the abence of Byrne, he's not an awful 15. Priestland should start for me, he's proved he's up to it, and he is the incumbent. SJ will get his game time against Namibia and Fiji, and Hook, it seems, is needed elsewhere. Feel the team needs to be settled by the end of the last group game and, injuries permitting with these players, the favourite will have been found. As it is, I'm not too fussed who starts, and for good reason, because they're all great options. Will support whoever, and believe we can win every group with whoever starts.

The only changes I would have like to have seen would have been Halfpenny in for either Williams or North, neither were effective and Williams defence was exposed by SA, and Tavis Knoyle at Scrum Half ahead of Phillips.

I was very happy with the way Wales played last week, they have improved every game this summer and I hope very much that they improve again and again as the tournament continues.

Wales have a very young and inexperienced team that are exciting and difficult to play against.

It will take them time to find the sum of their parts, but they are currently progressing at a rate of knots.

Sensible that we start with the same XV Gethin on the bench and maybe give him a run out in the last 20.

mm,

I have said all along I would have given Halfpenny a run instead of Shane other than that stay as they were.

Am a bit surprised not to see Wellies on the bench, and if things are go well hope Knoyle gets some gametime and maybe Halfpenny a run at XV.

We cant afford to experiment in this one it's a must win match Namibia will be a better game to rest a few players and give others a run out.

Cymro,

I wouldn'y say playing Halfpenny would be that much of an experiement as I guess he is wing and fullback cover and someone could get injured early on so he would have to play.

Agree if its close and we winning then don't make changes for the sake of it.

glamorganalun wrote:Flyhalf,

The wales online team selection (Western Mail), not quite the team I would choose but not too bad IMO:

People's Wales XV v Samoa

L Halfpenny, George North, J Roberts, J Hook, S Williams, R Priestland, M Phillips, P James, H Bennett, A Jones, L Charteris, AW Jones, D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/09/15/revealed-the-people-s-rugby-world-cup-wales-xv-to-face-samoa-91466-29429496/#ixzz1Y3Soa4gB

Not having a go at you Glam Al, but at the Western Fail - another load of balony printed by this desperate rag of a paper.

Shame Halfpenny misses out but you can't complain with the team that did so well against SA

miaow wrote:Agree with flyhalf with his criticisms of Hook. However, it's a case of choosing the imperfect player, because we do not have a Dan Carter. In fact, there is probably no other 10 in the world, including Cooper, who doesn't have an evident weaker side of his game.

Stephen Jones; still underrated by some, unfortunately. He brings leadership, direction and a solidity that no other ten in Wales, and most tens in the world, bring. Brilliant offensive player in terms of creating space and moves for others. Likes a high tempo game, playing on the gainline, marshalling the forwards and backs into a multi-ruck, intense game. Great passing ability, bettered only by Carter and Cooper IMO; passing is more than just a flashy offload, as Stoddart's try against England showed, an inch perfect pass can put a player through. Very good goalkicker, underrated again, regularly scores from both touchlines, however I feel it might be stylistically as much as anything that he isn't considered a good kicker. Very good defender as well, positionally and technique. Fond of, and effective with, the cross field kick: North has profitted from this a lot.

His weaknesses are clear. He is slow. He will not go through a gap, even though he can read them, and whilst he can put his centres through when he sees them, he cannot go through himself. This, in turn, makes defences drift earlier, knowing they can cover (this could be countered with another play, Hook, coming into first receiver sporadically from 15, keeping the defence guessing). Does tend to miss what some may consider 'easy' kicks, or at least mid level kicks. However, as shown this weekend, which kicker doesn't? Not a massive range of boot, both out of hand and from tee. Also, age and injury seem to have combined to mean he's missed a lot more rugby in the last two years than he has in the past.

James Hook; strengths are clear. Genuinely one of the few world class players in terms of being able to do it on his own from nothing. Seen many times, his jinking and stepping ability is up there with Cooper. Massive boot, often highly effective, from both hand and tee. Can win a match with one moment of class.

What makes him brilliant can also make him a liability; France being the best example. Has suffered from not being given an extended opportunity in one position (10) to iron out the creases in terms of decision making. Defence, and mostly tackling, is poor, despite having bulked up in recent years. The boot is usually solid, but Saturday showed he can be prone to errors, kicking out on full, and missing mid range kicks. Perhaps the assumption that he's a better kicker than SJ comes from the fact he looks aesthetically better, using the instep and booting it well over the posts, whereas SJ opts for more of a punt style. Hasn't played at ten for a string of games for nearly two years.

Rhys Priestland; the incumbent and, frankly, would be hard done by to lose the shirt. The best ten in Wales last season, should have taken over in the 6N when SJ was injured if Gatland had been fair, with Hook not having played 10 for ages. Going from the emotional wreck he was two years ago, where one missed kick would destory his composure, he had the demeanour of a 30+ cap international against SA. Kept the backline ticking along nicely, fed the midfield well. Good pass, great kicking ability, sent one penalty 80 metres to the SA 22 at one key point. Good goalkicker as well, though perhaps best to let someone else to have the duty at this stage of his career in case the jitters come back. Good breaker, can find the gaps and when they open up, invariably needs someone on his shoulder to offload to to have a clean break, so more effective than SJ, but less so than Hook. Very good understanding with JD2 and the other Scarlets back, unfortunately Stoddart being one of the best. Able to play 15 as well.

A weakness is his inexperience, not his age, because, at 24, he's not young, but he seems to have crammed in about 4-5 years of progression into two years since he first broke through into the Scarlets team. Inexperience perhaps shown by the DG attempt, although his decision making has been highly composed in the games he's played, both against England and SA. Not a great defender, and perhaps, again due to inexperience, could still have his game fall apart if put under intense pressure. Difficult to say anymore, due to having played so few games.

I think that's a very good summary miaow one of the better posts when discussing SJ and JH in particular - I will say one thing (well 2) Hooks defence looked a lot better in the warm ups (though he didn't do particularly well against SA) especially in the 10 channel, I hope it continues to improve, and I think his major weakness at FB is because he he's not a natural 15 so gets his positioning wrong. Also Priestlands defence is a lot better, and I think he's a pretty solid defender at 10 or 15. But these are small things... good post

Interesting there's no place for Wellies on the bench. The right call, in my view, as Hook/Priestland have shown better international form lately and cover more positions.

On Hook's defence, I think there's quite a difference between the defence skills needed for 10 and 15. At 10, you have your channel and it's obvious that you have to defend it. Hook's ripping technique has proved quite effective in this close quarters battle zone.

15, though, is quite different. You potentially have the whole width of the pitch to cover. Positional awareness is crucial. You only develop that by experience, and Hook has little experience at 15, a lot less than Priestland if you include regional games.

Totally agree samurai

samuraidragon wrote:Interesting there's no place for Wellies on the bench. The right call, in my view, as Hook/Priestland have shown better international form lately and cover more positions.
On Hook's defence, I think there's quite a difference between the defence skills needed for 10 and 15. At 10, you have your channel and it's obvious that you have to defend it. Hook's ripping technique has proved quite effective in this close quarters battle zone.

15, though, is quite different. You potentially have the whole width of the pitch to cover. Positional awareness is crucial. You only develop that by experience, and Hook has little experience at 15, a lot less than Priestland if you include regional games.

You can't state better international form, unless you compare Jones and Hooks performances ..... to do that you want to go back to their last games close together i.e.

6Ns
Feb 2011
Italy 16 v 24 Wales
Good performance by Jones, contributed to a two try welsh victory

Mar 2011
France 28 v 9 Wales
Hook missed kicks, got turned over twice, was charged down for try, then got sent off for a dangerous tackle. Yep make of that what you want!

Jun 2011
Wales 28 v 31 Baa Baas
............ 4 TRIES!! "my!! my!!" doesn't Jones hold the Welsh attacking platform back with his crabbing play

Aug 2011
Wales 19 v 9 England
First half Good - Priestland running the show, creating opportunities. Second half - Very Average, turnovers yet again, England screwed a dozen chances. But it doesn't matter lets forget all that because Hook scored a try..... whey hey!!

Wales 28 v 13 Argentina
Turnovers again!!!......... Argentina missed pens however, they were the better team for 35 mins, even tho they hadnt played together for the best part of 10 months. A breakaway try by Powell and a late AWJ attempt gave a skewed position going onto the 2nd half, after which the South Americans run out of steam. Good points "Steady Eddie", positional play and defence much improved, and he kicked the two conversions, .............. any inovation? any creativity? NOPE

I would have said that Hook has had 10-12 weeks training in the 15, 13, and 10 role. I would have said he has played quite a few times for the Os and what at least half a dozen times for the Welsh team, considering his natural skills you would have thought by now he would have been able to be in the right position at least!!!

So to counter your one liner, in my opinion Jones has been instrumental when Wales scored 6 tries in two competitive matches, and up to his injury was a quantum leap above Hook and to a lesser degree Priestland.

By the way Jones has played 15, 12, and 10 for Wales.

I wouldnt have picked Jones myself not because he is not the form player, but you need to reward the players for the performance last week, and continuity is quite vital in this nervous, pressure cooker enviroment they are in. Jones will play the next game I think tho

On a side note, the "ripping" of the ball is illegal, and has been highlighted in the press, I am sure the refs will be keeping an eyes on that movement by Hook.

Smirnoff:

The team from the WM was a pole not the WM selection, I would not post it otherwise.

Ahh apologies thought that was the wm sayin that was the team. I stand by my comment tho it is a rag

flyhalf

You do seem incredibly biased against Hook. Whilst it's alright to defend SJ and Priestland, as I have done in the past and shall continue to do so, you have to also see that Hook is a world class player, only diminished by his liability (which may or may not be eradicated with an extended period at 10 for his club).

Would be difficult to say SJ should come straight back in to the team. However, would've liked to have seen him on the bench; invariably, when he comes off the bench, the pace picks up and the forwards go forward with a higher intensity. I was all for SJ starting prior to the warm up games, however, we need to use players in a manner that makes them most effective for the whole team, and Jones' attitude, experience and ability mean he is an excellent player to use off the bench to make the right, 'sensible' decisions when the game is tight in the last quarter. As he did in the '08 GS.

I think your bias is highlighted by the fact that you completely ignore Hook's performance against Scotland in the 6N, choosing to start in the Italy game. Hook singlehandedly beat Scotland, admittedly in part due to the ineptitude of the opposition, but also, few people in the world can beat players like he can.

Wales should be happy with have all these options, and I'd still like Priestland to start for the rest of the tournament.

Look on the bright side - regardless of the result we will get to see Mike Phillips being smashed again and again and again....

miaow wrote:flyhalf

You do seem incredibly biased against Hook. Whilst it's alright to defend SJ and Priestland, as I have done in the past and shall continue to do so, you have to also see that Hook is a world class player, only diminished by his liability (which may or may not be eradicated with an extended period at 10 for his club).

Would be difficult to say SJ should come straight back in to the team. However, would've liked to have seen him on the bench; invariably, when he comes off the bench, the pace picks up and the forwards go forward with a higher intensity. I was all for SJ starting prior to the warm up games, however, we need to use players in a manner that makes them most effective for the whole team, and Jones' attitude, experience and ability mean he is an excellent player to use off the bench to make the right, 'sensible' decisions when the game is tight in the last quarter. As he did in the '08 GS.

I think your bias is highlighted by the fact that you completely ignore Hook's performance against Scotland in the 6N, choosing to start in the Italy game. Hook singlehandedly beat Scotland, admittedly in part due to the ineptitude of the opposition, but also, few people in the world can beat players like he can.

Wales should be happy with have all these options, and I'd still like Priestland to start for the rest of the tournament.

Nothing to do with been biased.......... and its not defending any player, I just can't abide sweeping statements with no back up just to promote another player, I would say exactly the same if it was Flood v Wilko, Sexton v ROG. Its like me saying Jackson is a better player than Parks without backing up my sweeping statement. Thats all

A statement was made from the usual source that Hook/Priestland are the form backs................. well sorry that pants as a statement. If the statement was

"Due to Jones injury it would be unwise to select him for such an vital match, and also the importance of continuity is in my eyes very relevant for squad confidence............... hence I wouldn't pick Jones"

then fair enough

Sorry I will only agree a player is world class when they have put in CONSISTENT performances of a world class nature.

Gethin Jenkins
Adam Jones (in patches)
Martyn Williams (came very close)
Warburton is getting there deffo

Right I'll tell you again reference to the Scotland match
1. Scotland played their worst match for maybe 15 yrs
2. We didnt get out of gear for the first 30 mins
3. Hook played superb for 25-30 mins, after which our blindside and I/C actually got off their derrieres and closed down your half back channel down, after that he went progressively worse to the extent that his indecisions gave us two "certain" tries which we somehow c0cked up. When Mr G made the decision to haul him off we were within 10pts of you. He had to bring Jones on yet again to steady an otherwise creaking ship........... We were in the accendancy but Jones with one massive tackle pushed us back 10-15 metres, the subdued Welsh crowd roared, the Welsh players confidence came back and you finished 13pts ahead
Thats the reality of Hooks world class performance against Scotland

To end this nonsense
I think that Jones shouldnt have been picked at all for the weekends match, but nothing to do with form or potential, just that I feel that his match fitness won't be there and you have the good option in the second half of moving Hook to 10 and bringing in 1/2p to the FB slot.

Tactics will be intriguing.

If we keep things moving, even going side to side to drag the defence out of position before running straight - Wales should win comfortably.

If we pick & drive, kick & chase, as Gatland sometimes likes to do - then we could come horribly unstuck again.

Joys of being a Welsh fan!

MR F

Hello matey.............. one thing on your side, you have gone from a team that blew out after 60 mins to perhaps the fittest squad in the tournament

Credit where credits due

Flyhalf:

Wales have been fit since 2005, I worry Wales have spent too much time in the gym hence all the calf injuries, I wish we spend a bit more time on set moves from the backs and first phase ball. I was amazed after the first England pre RWC game one of our forwards stated we (Wales) had very little scrum practice.

flyhalf

There was no need for such a long response that didn't address the question. I did indeed qualify my statements regarding SJ.

You, in criticising Hook, did not give him due credit. You omitted his moment against Scotland of genius and the impact that can have (winning the game in this case, despite coming in the first quarter).

And, going from your previous form from the old 606, you have a massive problem with Hook, and have for a while. Sorry mate, still think you're massively biased against him, regardless of whether you think you're merely responding to 'sweeping statements' or not.

As I said in another thread, I liked your comments on the old 606, not least the fact you were one of the few who understood that being 'creative' is more than just creating something for yourself, and in this sense SJ was probably the more creative of the two fly halfs. But still think there's a big chip on the shoulder about Hook, not sure why, especially when it doesn't seem to be a nationality issue, as is usually the case on 606, and it's not like he plays in a manner or style that is difficult to appreciate; of the two, SJ is a more acquired taste than Hook, who, with his jinking, plays the more aesthetically pleasing rugby for the neutral fan. So, I have no idea the reasons for it, but I think it's fair to say you have a massive problem with Hook.

It is clear either way gentlemen that SJ is unlikely to even bench unless RP or JH are injured. It may well we have seen the last of a great player and an even greater squad member.

Doubt that Gatts. Still not sure that Hook will last the tournament at 15; not for being moved into the centre, as Gatland seems to have taken a real shine to Scott Williams, but because Byrne is, surely, a better full back and, if he regains his form against Namibia, may start in the quarter final.

Think it would be incredibly foolish to have someone like SJ and not have him on the bench. I think his impact may be even greater from the bench, as he can be introduced tactically and, as long as there are players at first receiver who can still break the defensive line, Shane and Hook, effectivelly.

I for one would like to see him on the bench, as i would like to see Hook at 10 or centre

No way would Hook deserve to start over JD2 or Roberts. If injury occurs, Gatland has showed he is more than confident that Scott Williams can make the step up. I'd prefer Hook in the centre or at 10 over 15, but it's difficult to say that he deserves to displace Priestland.

I agree, I just think he can create in midfield and being at fb doesn't allow that....its his little side swerve that sucks in his tackler creates the overlap, so effective.

Todays weather in Hamilton: Occasional showers, some heavy. Westerlies easing.

Let's hope we don't get rain tonight.

Looks like Ryan will be available for the Namibia game that's a boost even if it's to rest other players.

Cymroglan wrote:Todays weather in Hamilton: Occasional showers, some heavy. Westerlies easing.

Let's hope we don't get rain tonight.

That's good surely? It means Wales wont play silly rugby and throw it around?
It will force us to keep it tight, which is what the Samoans dont want.

Yes that is good news as we have some strength in depth in the back and second row with Ryan's return, the other benefit Powell not playing in the big games like Fiji and with luck the 1/4 final etc (who knows after today).

lostinwales wrote:Look on the bright side - regardless of the result we will get to see Mike Phillips being smashed again and again and again....

Flyhalf:

Your statement below:

You can't state better international form, unless you compare Jones and Hooks performances ..... to do that you want to go back to their last games close together i.e.

6Ns
Feb 2011
Italy 16 v 24 Wales
Good performance by Jones, contributed to a two try welsh victory
(complete rubbish and you know it, Hook was instrumental in both tries not S Jones. Jones was picked because of injury in the centre and Hook was picked to fill that void. You also ignored Hook completing a drop goal to seal the game dispite Jones playing 10, he was ignored by the scrum half, that says a lot to me, passenger comes to mind.)

Mar 2011
France 28 v 9 Wales
Hook missed kicks, got turned over twice, was charged down for try, then got sent off for a dangerous tackle. Yep make of that what you want!
( I will accept your comments as I was out of the Country in Canada at the time and you keep going on about the game as Hook has a good record of winning 6N games playing at 10)

Jun 2011
Wales 28 v 31 Baa Baas
............ 4 TRIES!! "my!! my!!" doesn't Jones hold the Welsh attacking platform back with his crabbing play Whistle (we lost, it fairness Wales were ahead when he went off but his club mates defennce let the side down)

Aug 2011
Wales 19 v 9 England
First half Good - Priestland running the show, creating opportunities. Second half - Very Average, turnovers yet again, England screwed a dozen chances. But it doesn't matter lets forget all that because Hook scored a try..... whey hey!!
(Again a bias view, most of England's missed chances were in the first half such as Shane's tackle and Tindal's what do I do next. Hook scored the try after the length of the field drives and he did kick a number of long penalties and did not miss any kicks. How many rip's did Hook perform and his line kicking was very good.)

Wales 28 v 13 Argentina
Turnovers again!!!......... Argentina missed pens however, they were the better team for 35 mins, even tho they hadnt played together for the best part of 10 months. A breakaway try by Powell and a late AWJ attempt gave a skewed position going onto the 2nd half, after which the South Americans run out of steam. Good points "Steady Eddie", positional play and defence much improved, and he kicked the two conversions, .............. any inovation? any creativity? NOPE
(How many rip's to turn over ball, just like the England game Wales did not have much ball in the first half but he assisted with the third try when the scrum half was changed yo Williams and gave a fast long pass to Hook to JD2 who gave a nice inside ball for North to score. 28:13 is a good score against this opposition, I felt the game was run well. We will see how Scotland will get on soon, they gave England enough trouble)

I would have said that Hook has had 10-12 weeks training in the 15, 13, and 10 role. I would have said he has played quite a few times for the Os and what at least half a dozen times for the Welsh team, considering his natural skills you would have thought by now he would have been able to be in the right position at least!!!
(It is hardly Hook's fault he can play anwhere in the backline, he still gets picked in these positions for a reason

So to counter your one liner, in my opinion Jones has been instrumental when Wales scored 6 tries in two competitive matches, and up to his injury was a quantum leap above Hook and to a lesser degree Priestland.
(Usual comment, Magners league games what about Leicester and Osprey twice steered the Scarlets to rousing defeats.)

By the way Jones has played 15, 12, and 10 for Wales.
( I think he is past it at 10 god help us playing 15, he tackles well if you run straight at him and playing 12, that was a long time ago when he played for the Lions, at the time I believed he should have played 10.)

The Jones/Hook debate is fascinating but it now seems to be a Priestland/Hook debate. My main reservation about JH at 10 is that because he often drops off in order to create the overlap and at 10 that can cause us to become lateral. he also has thrown some cracking interception passes which have cost us.

But he is by far the most creative back we have and therefore I want him between 10-13 as at 15 I feel he is not able to use those distribution skills that make him unique. he is taking one for the team clearly but it must go much deeper than that with WG....a couple of competent perfs from RP and he is now nailed on 10.

WG was prepared to give Hook a game and a half at 10 in the warm-up games, and he did well amd we won both games. It's hard to know what goes on in Gatland's head, but it may be that his issue is with Byrne not Hook. For some reason he has lost confidence in Byrne and he hasn't got another 15 in the squad. Priestand is the only other candidate , but he prefers Hook's howitzer boot and experience under the high ball.

I personally hope RP and JH switch around a bit in today's game.

samuraidragon wrote:WG was prepared to give Hook a game and a half at 10 in the warm-up games, and he did well amd we won both games. It's hard to know what goes on in Gatland's head, but it may be that his issue is with Byrne not Hook. For some reason he has lost confidence in Byrne and he hasn't got another 15 in the squad. Priestand is the only other candidate , but he prefers Hook's howitzer boot and experience under the high ball.

I personally hope RP and JH switch around a bit in today's game.

Okay, but Gatland....

1. Why take Byrne at all
2. 1/2 has a siege gun boot - Hook plays 10, RP/LH at 15?

I wonder if Gatland just doesn't rate him as a 10

Been away for a bit but nice to see the WUMS have infected the board in my absence

We'll have our work cut out vs Samoa. We can't afford to slip up at all. We must be diligent to look after possession - our achilles heel. A heartening performance vs SA should give the lads the confidence to tke the game to the Samoans. I hope to see Roberts kick on from what was his best performance in about 2 years. There are also others who can front up and do the donkey work needed to get us over the gameline.

IMHO I think Hook at fullback is a bit sketchy. I think I'd put him at 12 with Priestland at 10. Byrne may be in poor form but our back line will be more balanced and more threatening with Hook at 12. The shame is Stodds got injured. But there we are, the team is the team and I'm crossing my fingers for a big win tommorrow.

I have to say, I've been a huge critic of Gatland for the last 2 years but hats off to him and the lads for the performance last weekend

samuraidragon wrote:WG was prepared to give Hook a game and a half at 10 in the warm-up games, and he did well amd we won both games. It's hard to know what goes on in Gatland's head, but it may be that his issue is with Byrne not Hook.

Absolutely, this is the bigger issue; we don't have an in form full back, and therefore the debate about Hook is pretty much pointless, as I'd prefer him at 15 over 1/2P for every game bar Namibia.

As for not taking Byrne, with Prydie, Stoddart and Martyn Thomas all injured, there was no other option. Fussell isn't up to the standard, and never will be, Byrne, even what playing poorly, tackles well, is positionally brilliant, and decent under the high ball, especially defensively (knocks them on when chasing). Can't imagine him not being given a chance to play himself back into the side before the Ireland (?) game (crazy to think we will not be playing the Aussies...let's not get ahead of ourselves, but... ).