Vitali K VS Haye

First topic message reminder :

Ok I have a feeling this fight will happen as Haye will retire after anyway so I cant see contracts getting in the way.. Haye will fight for pride, and its still a good little pay day for VK, better than most options out there.

My first thoughts are that Haye would get knocked out but I am having second thoughts. I think Haye still has very dangerous power and his speed is always very dangerous, and while he may not knock VK out he can still give him reason for concern.

WK is faster that VK and I think it was WKs reflexes that helped him deal with Haye, But im not sure VK will cope with his speed as much and I think Haye may well have a shout at getting a SD or something with this one... I would not bed my house on it but I do feel open to it.

HumanWindmill wrote:PM for you, Jukebox.

Suggest you read and digest.

Pronto.

Thanks for the offer Windy, but I can't make it tonight. How about tomorrow night?

Why do you want me to bring a Gerbil?

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:PM for you, Jukebox.

Suggest you read and digest.

Pronto.

Thanks for the offer Windy, but I can't make it tonight. How about tomorrow night?

Why do you want me to bring a Gerbil?

The gerbil is a courtesy to you, so that you'll be able to enjoy familiar smells.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Golota??? now who's on the WUM

A peak Bowe struggled against Herbie Hide. A guy VK blew away with a jab inside 2 rounds. Bowe was a member of the over-hyped American club, not he nor Golota were on Lewis or VK's level.

I rate Lewis above VK by the way. Some can't seem to grasp that what I'm saying is that Lewis got a bit of luck in their fight. That's not saying that VK would have gone on and won if not for the cut. If we consider Lewis threw probably 20 000 punches in his career with maybe 20 of them causing cuts, it was very fortunate that one of them happened at exactly the right time for him against VK.

There's lot's of ways of looking at things, if Vitali was good enough to do that in 1999, then why didn't he step up to the plate then, because Lewis would have destroyed him. He fought Lewis in 2003 in Lewis last fight when it was supposed to be Kevin Johnson, who Vitali fought next and finished in two rounds. Fair play to Lewis for taking the fight on such short notice knowing he was out of shape.

manos de piedra wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Well whats the basis for Golota being similar/on a par with Vitali? He had some strengths yes but overall he was an inferior fighter to Vitali in my view. Im not sure what the argument that he isnt is based on?

Even if you take out the top guys that Golota faced like Bowe (questionable in my view), Lewis and Tyson who both hammered him his record against the likes of Byrd, Brewster, Ruiz sort of second tier guys is pretty poor also and this is the kind of competition that Vitali has been dominating relatively easily so all things considered if it were Golota around now instead of the Klitschkos I dont see him being remotely as dominant.

Golota seems to be living off those Bowe fights alot. People may argue the same sort of thing with Klitschko and Lewis but the difference for me is that Klitschko went on to dominate in a way Golota never did who ended up losing to almost every half decent fighter he faced and had acheived more beforehand.

Back in Golota's day there was 2nd tier fighters, there isn't now. A lot of there competition is leftovers from Golota's era, if there was competition coming through guys like Holyfield and Mercer wouldn't be fighting now. If Vitali fought Golota's career he would't be much more succesful than he was. All we have to base Vitali on is his fight against Lewis. The rest are gash.

Have to disagree with you on this one. The two are similarly aged and the likes of Ruiz, Brewster, Grant are not much better than Arreola, Donald, Sanders, Peter, Adamek and Gomez who Vitali has been dominating. I seriously cant see Vitali losing to Ruiz or Brewster for instance and I would also give him more than a decent shot at beating the Bowe that Golota faced.

Who were all the second tier guys that Golota beat? Vitali dominated the field, Golota couldnt notwithstanding Lewis/Tyson.

The argument if x or y was around then or now can be used against any fighter but in this instance I dont think Golota would handle Vitalis opposition remotely as well and I cant see Vitali being blasted out in a round by a peak Lewis and or the shenanigans in the Tyson fight where he was floored early and quit. Vitali is just a much more formidable boxer overall than Golota and always would be regardless of era or competition.

Nobody, he was the 2nd tier that Lewis faced, Vitali doesn't have such opposition.

Pesonally I dont think Golota is all that much better than the chasing competition around now. Maybe hes a little better but not drastically. I dont think theres much argument that Lewis had better opposition than Vitali to face but I thought the point was in relation to a comparison between Golota and Vitali.

I just dont really see how the two are comparable. If Vitali came onto the scene in 1997 instead of now he may not be as dominant a champion with Lewis there but I would not relegate him to a second tier status. Likewise if you swapped Golota in to the present day scene there I dont think he dominates the competion even as poor as it is now as his losses to Ruiz, Brewster, Grant and so on would indicate a guy thats very much tier two whereas Vitali is very much tier one.

I rate Golota higher than the likes of Larry Donald, Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, a 2010 Shannon Briggs, Chris Arreola who was 27-0 going into the fight with Vitali, but is nothing but a heap of lard. I just don't see that much difference in their styles that tells me Vitali can handle a 1997 Lewis different to the 2003 one, which was the old and fat version.

VK took the fight at equally short notice. If they had fought in 1999 then I believe Lewis would have won. VK's peak wasn't until the mid 2000's, Lewis peaked mid to late '90's.

I would back Chagaev, Ibragimov and Povetkin to beat Golota in their primes.

And i would back Lewis to destroy those three when he was in his prime. And Danny Williams.

Yes, maybe not inside a round though.

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Well whats the basis for Golota being similar/on a par with Vitali? He had some strengths yes but overall he was an inferior fighter to Vitali in my view. Im not sure what the argument that he isnt is based on?

Even if you take out the top guys that Golota faced like Bowe (questionable in my view), Lewis and Tyson who both hammered him his record against the likes of Byrd, Brewster, Ruiz sort of second tier guys is pretty poor also and this is the kind of competition that Vitali has been dominating relatively easily so all things considered if it were Golota around now instead of the Klitschkos I dont see him being remotely as dominant.

Golota seems to be living off those Bowe fights alot. People may argue the same sort of thing with Klitschko and Lewis but the difference for me is that Klitschko went on to dominate in a way Golota never did who ended up losing to almost every half decent fighter he faced and had acheived more beforehand.

Back in Golota's day there was 2nd tier fighters, there isn't now. A lot of there competition is leftovers from Golota's era, if there was competition coming through guys like Holyfield and Mercer wouldn't be fighting now. If Vitali fought Golota's career he would't be much more succesful than he was. All we have to base Vitali on is his fight against Lewis. The rest are gash.

Have to disagree with you on this one. The two are similarly aged and the likes of Ruiz, Brewster, Grant are not much better than Arreola, Donald, Sanders, Peter, Adamek and Gomez who Vitali has been dominating. I seriously cant see Vitali losing to Ruiz or Brewster for instance and I would also give him more than a decent shot at beating the Bowe that Golota faced.

Who were all the second tier guys that Golota beat? Vitali dominated the field, Golota couldnt notwithstanding Lewis/Tyson.

The argument if x or y was around then or now can be used against any fighter but in this instance I dont think Golota would handle Vitalis opposition remotely as well and I cant see Vitali being blasted out in a round by a peak Lewis and or the shenanigans in the Tyson fight where he was floored early and quit. Vitali is just a much more formidable boxer overall than Golota and always would be regardless of era or competition.

Nobody, he was the 2nd tier that Lewis faced, Vitali doesn't have such opposition.

Pesonally I dont think Golota is all that much better than the chasing competition around now. Maybe hes a little better but not drastically. I dont think theres much argument that Lewis had better opposition than Vitali to face but I thought the point was in relation to a comparison between Golota and Vitali.

I just dont really see how the two are comparable. If Vitali came onto the scene in 1997 instead of now he may not be as dominant a champion with Lewis there but I would not relegate him to a second tier status. Likewise if you swapped Golota in to the present day scene there I dont think he dominates the competion even as poor as it is now as his losses to Ruiz, Brewster, Grant and so on would indicate a guy thats very much tier two whereas Vitali is very much tier one.

I rate Golota higher than the likes of Larry Donald, Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, a 2010 Shannon Briggs, Chris Arreola who was 27-0 going into the fight with Vitali, but is nothing but a heap of lard. I just don't see that much difference in their styles that tells me Vitali can handle a 1997 Lewis different to the 2003 one, which was the old and fat version.

He probably cant. I think peak v peak Lewis outpoints Vitali most of the time. But thats not enough to relegate Vitali to Golotas level. Everything beyond their common loss to Lewis indicates Vitali is far better because he handled all the rest of the competion with ease (the freak Byrd injury aside). Golota failed to do this miserably. What big fights did he ever even win? McBride?, Norris? washed up Witherspoon?These are his best wins. You can say Golota and Vitali both lose to a peak Lewis but thats where the comparisons end as far as Im concerned. Theres no question marks over Golotas capabilities because of his weak record against both tier one and tier two fighters. He would never be in a champ in any era really and barely a contender in most. Vitali would most likely be a top contender in any era. Not the dominant champ he is now, but a tough prospect for anyone and able to match up with the best.

If your overall point is that Vitali would not be as dominant in most other eras, I would agree with you. But if its that the only thing seperating him from being Golota is that he existed in a weak era I firmly disagree. Just because they both lost to Lewis does not make them equals and I would say Vitalis record outside this loss compared to Golotas highlights this.

This is my main point Manos, although Vitali is the better fighter i do think they are quite similar and don't think Vitali could do as good as he did in 2003, in 97. On paper Vitali is far superior, i wasn't trying to make out Golota was better just he fought in a far stronger era and have similair styles.

The Galveston Giant wrote:This is my main point Manos, although Vitali is the better fighter i do think they are quite similar and don't think Vitali could do as good as he did in 2003, in 97. On paper Vitali is far superior, i wasn't trying to make out Golota was better just he fought in a far stronger era and have similair styles.

I would generally agree. I dont see Vitali being as dominant a champion in other eras but you could apply this to all but a handful of the very top fighters. Personally I dont see Lewis being a dominant champ in the 70s for instance. But I would be reluctant to then say he was just an Ellis or a Quarry then simply because he may lose to Ali or Foreman for instance which is the point I was making about the Golota/Vitali comparison.

Klichko is alot better than Golota but there is no doubt Lewis was better than both he absolutely destroyed Golota and beat Klichko even though he was past his best no argument about it.

Dont get why people dont rate Lewis and say he was lucky to beat Klichko lol did you see his face?? Klichko was the lucky one imo if he continued he would have done serious damage to his career his face would have been cut to shreds there is no doubt about it.

Waingro wrote:Klichko is alot better than Golota but there is no doubt Lewis was better than both he absolutely destroyed Golota and beat Klichko even though he was past his best no argument about it.

Dont get why people dont rate Lewis and say he was lucky to beat Klichko lol did you see his face?? Klichko was the lucky one imo if he continued he would have done serious damage to his career his face would have been cut to shreds there is no doubt about it.

Serious damage????? It was a cut above his eye brow. The worst thing that could have happened was that his eyebrow would be bessed up.

Lewis was not in his peak when he faced Vitali but Vitali was not in his peak either. Vitalis peak was just before he retired and when he came back.

And why do people keep saying that lewis only took the fight at two weeks notice? It's common sense that Vitali took it at two weeks too so don't know why people keep bringing that up.

Lewis even in the rounds he won received more punches. Vitali was winning the fight. You say that in the 6th round Vitali was holding on for life but then how did he manage to land more punches on Lewis? Hardly hanging on when you hit the other guy more times.