Mayweather vs. Ortiz... Whos to Blame?

by School Project Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Ortiz - Headbutted, was too interested in kissing Mayweather, didn't guard himself at all time.

Mayweather - Immediately after they touch gloves throws a left hook-right straight.

Cortez - Did he call time in? Why didn't he see the two shots? Is he capable of refereeing anymore?

Quite an odd end to the fight, especially given the argument with Larry Merchant at the end. "HBO don't care about me...", "HBO should have fired you..." - "If I was 50 yeard younger I'd kick your a**"

Shame the fight ended like this!

by housedp Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:13 am

it has to be said though sugar boy that floyd put his hands on the side of ortiz face almost as if to say its ok then promptly smacked him with a right then left while ortizs hands ere at his side.
cortez did say box on then look away and ortiz went in for another "iam sorry spree" which mayweather no doubt from what i said above aknowleged again the BANG.
Mayweather was within his rights but it still looks dodgey.

by OasisBFC Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:13 am

im with most of you lot - what ortiz did was intentional and illegal - it could have opened a nasty cut on floyds pretty face.
what floyd did was legal, just not exactly morally sound but he did the job. he was easily winning and he acted within the rules.
apologise

as ricky hatton says, its not a tickling contest. i remember him punching mosley as mosley was trying to apologise for something. leave that till after the fight. you're in the ring to hurt each other within the rules of boxing, not mess around like ortiz did.

kissing and cuddling? please. leave that till the bell. muppet.

by AlexHuckerby Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:18 am

him and mosley were arguing but yeah floyd took full advantage as hes within his rights to

by housedp Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:22 am

I felt floyd drew ortiz into a comfort zone for his third apology attempt and then promptly knocked him out.

I suppose he deserved it after what had happened but it doesnt mean it looks good.

by Bob Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:26 am

I have no sympathy whatsoever for a fighter that deliberately headbutts.

Feck Ortiz.

by **ShahenshahG** Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:26 am

Hey Jazzy Jeff, hows the gut? Yeah nice to be back. Got a little one on the way due in november so been doing 100 hour weeks to gather enough so we don't struggle after. Difficult to get onto the net. Hopefully, the more reasonable hours now will allow me to come on.

by Rowley Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:28 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Hey Jazzy Jeff, hows the gut? Yeah nice to be back. Got a little one on the way due in november so been doing 100 hour weeks to gather enough so we don't struggle after. Difficult to get onto the net. Hopefully, the more reasonable hours now will allow me to come on.

Not as large as it used to be mate, glad to hear you may be back on here more mate, hope everything goes well with the young un.

by **ShahenshahG** Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:38 am

I reckon that refs should be subject to the same stringent rules as Professional cricket umpires. In experience, in reflexes and tested every so often. Any hint of a bias and they should be removed (Evidence, not accusation). Should be asked to retire at 60 and if they want to continue - be assessed last 5 fights - any deterioration = loss of license.. Cortez was quite decent once upon a time but I think he has gotten a little to close to some fighters/gyms/promoters and worse his focus and ability seems to be going with age.

by **ShahenshahG** Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:39 am

Mind you - we've got some pretty crap referees over here. Could do with sorting out.

by Scottrf Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:41 am

Cortez clearly said "Lets go."

As soon as I saw that I saw a situation like when Mosley offered another touch of gloves after the box on call and got a straight right in his face.

Fight was in progress, Cortez should have been there to break them up, but Mayweather himself did nothing wrong.

by milkyboy Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:55 am

you're all being harsh on joe... i think he was fair but firm like he always is.... in fact that should be his nickname.

... or maybe 'feckless but futile'

by OasisBFC Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:59 am

Bob wrote:I have no sympathy whatsoever for a fighter that deliberately headbutts.

Feck Ortiz.

amen, brother.

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:00 am

shah why are you back here all of a sudden? How can you blame Mayweather for anything he did what he was supposed to do Ortiz should have protected himself.

by **ShahenshahG** Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:03 am

Just a little free time onetwo. Perhaps you shoud reread my post. Just a bit of unsportsmanlike conduct which can be forgiven in the heat of the moment. otherwise both Cortez and Ortiz are at fault.

by AlexHuckerby Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:06 am

changed your tune about ortiz i take it then bob!

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:08 am

What did you guys think of Mayweather's behaviour towards Larry "vodka breath" Merchant after the fight?

by BALTIMORA Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:22 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:What did you guys think of Mayweather's behaviour towards Larry "vodka breath" Merchant after the fight?

Normally I'd have thought that type of behaviour was disgraceful but if there's one person in boxing who deserves it, it's Merchant. He and Cortez should be tied together and thrown down a well.

by School Project Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:58 pm

Scottrf wrote:Cortez clearly said "Lets go."

As soon as I saw that I saw a situation like when Mosley offered another touch of gloves after the box on call and got a straight right in his face.

Fight was in progress, Cortez should have been there to break them up, but Mayweather himself did nothing wrong.

Yeah, I just watched the replay on Youtube of the HBO coverage and after Ortiz is walked to the neutral corner Cortez DID say "Lets Go", he then decides to look at the time keeper for around 5 seconds before the shots are thrown. I need to appologise to Prettyboykev because I was adament the call wasn't made last night on the chat.

Mayweather wasn't in the wrong... yes he took full advantage of Ortiz when his hands were down, but regardless Ortiz should have been a lot more aware. After headbutting someone they're unlikely to be your best friend in the fight.

It's a harsh lesson for sure... but a completely just KO.

by eddyfightfan Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:48 pm

i think it was bang out of order, if mayweather lost his record in the same situation i think he'd have something to say about it. hitting onces the refs said fight is one thing, but actually, smiling and talking to trick your opponent, then standing on his foot and landing a cheap shop is well out of order. people came to see mayweathers skill against ortiz, no see him trick him into a KO. hope he gets in with manny, as he is the only one who could ko mayweather, and thats what i wanna see.

by Daz Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:00 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Just had a watch on YouTube. The headbutt was so blatant Ortiz was lucky not to have been DQ'd. Mayweather then accepted two apologetic gestures off him, although you could see he was angry about it. After Cortez has finished making a song and dance about deducting the point, he clearly gestures the two men together and says "let's go". He then inexplicably turns away from the fighters to communicate with the timekeeper. Not sure if this confused Ortiz, but instead of fighting on as Cortrz had instructed, he attempts to make a third apologetic hug towards mayweather. Mayweather himself isnt looking at Cortez, he - quite rightly - is focused on Ortiz and promptly knocks him out. Cortez (the clown) only turns back to the action in time to see Ortiz hit the deck and count him out.

Mayweather technically did nothing wrong, and the more I watch it the more I think he (unlike Ortiz) was oblivious to Cortez' clowning and was just following his instruction. I can see why some would say mayweather was out of order and it was a cheap shot, but I don't blame him. Ortiz isnt the sharpest tool and seems to lack a bit of focus in the ring IMO, he has to shoulder a bit of the blame for being OTT with the hugging and not protecting himself after the ref had signalled to fight on. But the real culprit to me was Cortez. His actions appeared to confuse Ortiz and left him vulnerable to mayweather. Cortez is an utter clown who is years past his sell by date as a ref. Having waved the fighters on he then turns away from the action, confusing one fighter and allowing the other to capitalise, thus being instrumental in the outcome of the fight. I lay the blame with him. Glad I didn't lay out 15 knicker for this farce.

On a side note, I have to say I nearly vomited at the incessant hugging and back slapping in Pacquiao-Mosley, and have noticed this OTT hugging creeping into the sport a bit more. There's no place for it til after the last bell is rung, it's a fight not a best friend competition, and I have no problem with mayweather being ruthless enough to shun this nonsense and get on with the business.

Bang on. Mayweather is ruthless - he was still clearly angry about being butted - you could see it when he was in the neutral corner watching Ortiz trying to get up. Ortiz was naive and very stupid for intentionally butting Floyd. That was the biggest disgrace of the fight. Cortez and Merchant are both idiots too. Fair play to Mayweather - dont think he did anything wrong - he was told to box on and he did.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:08 pm

Mayweather is blameless name me any smart fighter would have done the same. Corteaz shouldn't be refereeing although apart from forgetting about the timekeeper then looking away from the action he didn't do anything wrong either.

Ortiz was to blame his head butt was the actions of a petulant child who was being out classed and not defending himself was unacceptably naive for a guy who has had so many fights.

by Daz Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:10 pm

Lost a lot of respect for Ortiz - just when I was warming to him as well.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:14 pm

Why was he smiling so much? I started to get the feeling he was just happy to be there.

by BoxingFan88 Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Mayweather didn't do anything wrong, he allowed ortiz to touch gloves TWICE and the third time he actually pushes him off more than touching gloves. Mayweather saw the opportunity and rightfully went for it.

Ortiz was so embarrassed for headbutting mayweather and he totally lost the plot. Mayweather was totally dominating the fight and that outcome would have come sooner or later anyway.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:37 pm

I can see nobody agrees with me on this but I think Mayweather should have been DQ'd. Cortez hadn't alertd the timekeeper to time in the round when Mayweather threw the shots. It was Cortez' folly and I don't blame Mayweather, but following the rules he should've been DQ'd in my eyes.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:38 pm

What annoyed me was Merchants questioning insinuating Floyd had done something wrong but never questioned Ortiz when he said the head butt was accidental. Lost all respect for Merchant after the Marquez vs Katsidis fight his questions to Katsidis about his brother were shameful.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:41 pm

Why is Merchant taking so much flak? He asked the questions I wanted answered, that's what reporters/journos are there for and Mayweather responded by hurling abuse at him for no apparent reason.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:43 pm

Merchant was insinuating Floyd did something wrong.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:47 pm

Point being? There is a viewpoint that he did something wrong. What's the point of a reporter standing there filating a fighter after a controversial outcome? He's there to get answers and if Floyd was blameless there wouldn't be conntroversy.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:50 pm

Floyd was blameless though. Their is no controversy if it was another boxer and not Floyd that did it there would have been no problem.

by Scottrf Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:54 pm

prettyboykev wrote:Floyd was blameless though. Their is no controversy if it was another boxer and not Floyd that did it there would have been no problem.

Yeah right. It would have been a bigger deal in reverse.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:54 pm

That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:55 pm

My last post was in response to prettyboy by the way.

by slash912 Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:55 pm

Can't agree with that Kev, think it would be controversial regardless of who it was. It has more publicity because of who was involved but it would have been controversial either way.

I do believe it was unsportsmanlike, but I have no idea what Ortiz was thinking, firstly with the headbutt and then with the incessant apologising. It's like he'd forgotten what he was there for. And the less said about Cortez the better really.

by Scottrf Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:56 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.

Floyd hasn't liked Merchant for a while.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:01 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.

I understand he's their to get Floyds view on it but Merchants been around long enough to know Floyd did nothing wrong. I don't have a problem with asking the question it was the was he was insinuating that Floyd was in the wrong when he clearly wasn't

by slash912 Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:06 pm

I think Floyd overreacted at that point, I think Larry was well withing his rights to question Floyd over the end of the fight as it was unusual and controversial. But it was hardly professional of Larry to say he'd kick Floyd's ass either, funny as it was.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:10 pm

It was the wording of the question I have a problem with. He was quite right to ask question about the way it ended it was unusual.

Merchant shouldn't be doing that job any more his questions to Katsidis after the Marquez fight were poor.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:55 pm

Scottrf wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.
Floyd hasn't liked Merchant for a while.

That's no excuse. Merchant kept it professional before Mayweather blew up on him. Floyd just can't understand someone suggesting he may be human afterall, no way to behave.

by Scottrf Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:57 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.
Floyd hasn't liked Merchant for a while.

That's no excuse. Merchant kept it professional before Mayweather blew up on him. Floyd just can't understand someone suggesting he may be human afterall, no way to behave.

Wasn't giving an excuse. You were wondering why he reacted and it's because he doesn't like Merchant.

by John Bloody Wayne Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:58 pm

gotcha!

by Bob Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:06 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:changed your tune about ortiz i take it then bob!

Yes, a little. Not as much on my assessment of his abilities (a fan, yes, but I gave him no hope against Mayweather), but I was a little disappointed that he would turn into such a dirty little c**t at the first sign of problems.

by md_fan Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:40 pm

Aside from the controversial ending....

Does anyone think maybe that Ortiz had a chance of taking Floyd out if not for the headbutt? He was 14lbs heavier than Floyd on the night and to me looked fast and very dangerous. I understand that Floyd is a master in defence skills but it looked like he was under a LOT of pressure and no certainty to win over the distance.

by Rowley Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:46 pm

MD not convinced myself Floyd tends to improve as the rounds go on and is traditionally a little circumspect in the first few rounds whilst he susses an opponent, could say this was the case against both Judah and Hatton to a degree, think it was only going to get worse for Victor and hate to say it but suspect he knew that. Could explain his frankly bizarre head butt, hate to say it but think Victor has a side to him that looks for a way out when things ain't going well for him.

by School Project Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:48 pm

md_fan wrote:Aside from the controversial ending....

Does anyone think maybe that Ortiz had a chance of taking Floyd out if not for the headbutt? He was 14lbs heavier than Floyd on the night and to me looked fast and very dangerous. I understand that Floyd is a master in defence skills but it looked like he was under a LOT of pressure and no certainty to win over the distance.

It's a fair question but from the previous 3 rounds I think that Floyd was controlling the fight far too much. Against the ropes he was very difficult to hit and despite the 14-17lbs weight difference. Mayweather would have worn Ortiz down to a late stoppage.

Ortiz was already starting to mark up, he was eating a fair few straights to try and get inside by which point Mayweather was teeing off on him. When Ortiz tried to gain control of the centre of the ring, Mayweather would trade then move out of distance. Ortiz looked ineffective.

Ortiz LOOKED fast and looked dangerous, but he was ultimately ineffective, his most successful move was when he pinned Mayweather to the ropes before the headbutt, that charge earned a few points and could have got him the round, a few more of those before backing off and sticking to the body could have posed some problems for Mayweather... but Ortiz didn't look as though he was going to do it.

IF that fight went on longer, Mayweather would have won, there's no doubt about it in my mind.

by Adam D Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:49 pm

I actually think that MD has a slight point.

Ortiz was throwing a lot of punches in the corner (and had a few times from memory done this in previous rounds). None of them connected but Floyd was under pressure for a little spell.

Who knows what would have happened - Ortiz might have connected.

I still think Floyd would have won but it was nowhere near as one sided as some people are making out. Ortiz was still very much in the fight when he got punked.

by BALTIMORA Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:51 pm

md_fan wrote:Aside from the controversial ending....

Does anyone think maybe that Ortiz had a chance of taking Floyd out if not for the headbutt? He was 14lbs heavier than Floyd on the night and to me looked fast and very dangerous. I understand that Floyd is a master in defence skills but it looked like he was under a LOT of pressure and no certainty to win over the distance.

Sure, why not?

by supremeboxingskills Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:32 pm

Scottrf wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:That's a matter of opinion.

Merchant is there to get Mayweather's vew on it and (despite what Mayweather may think) saying Mayweather is not a faultless, perfect being is not all that much of a crime. Merchant did nothing to deserve that kind of verbal abuse.
Floyd hasn't liked Merchant for a while.

That's no excuse. Merchant kept it professional before Mayweather blew up on him. Floyd just can't understand someone suggesting he may be human afterall, no way to behave.
Wasn't giving an excuse. You were wondering why he reacted and it's because he doesn't like Merchant.

the problem with larry is he's ALWAYS hating on floyd.thats the point floyd made before he said what he said.

by supremeboxingskills Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:38 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
md_fan wrote:Aside from the controversial ending....

Does anyone think maybe that Ortiz had a chance of taking Floyd out if not for the headbutt? He was 14lbs heavier than Floyd on the night and to me looked fast and very dangerous. I understand that Floyd is a master in defence skills but it looked like he was under a LOT of pressure and no certainty to win over the distance.

Sure, why not?

ortiz doesnt have complete knockout power.plus floyd wasnt under pressure.when floyd was up against the ropes floyd smiled at ortiz just before he butted floyd.
floyd was dominating 73 to 26 shots landed speaks for itself.
we've seen floyd up against the ropes in so many of his fights,so its nothing new,but floyd is great at avoiding shots up against the ropes.
ortiz had 0 chance.

by Guest Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:03 pm

In the boxing ring events move on very quickly while we have the benefit at looking at everything in slow motion.

Ortiz' headbutt to Mayweather apparently split his lower lip from the inside and if it hadn't been for Mayweathers avoidance reaction (arching his back and head away) he could have had his front teeth knocked out and his jaw broken.

Looking at the youtube Mayweather-Merchant interview, Mayweather "behaved well" to begin with remembering to thank God, his supporters and the organisers etc. In the firing line of Merchant's persistant questioning he did try to explain what happened eventually admitting he might have been a little dirty: “It’s protect yourself at all times. He done something dirty. We’re not here to cry and complain about what he did dirty, or what I did dirty. I was victorious. If he wants a rematch, he can get a rematch.”

But Merchant still kept coming back at Mayweather - with the fight only minutes over, Mayweather full of adrenaline and Merchant having nothing positive to say. I can understand why Mayweather eventually "flipped".

Reflecting back on the match I thought Ortiz would make more of an impact (apart from the headbutt), but despite all his huff and puff and looking the busier of the two, he didn't land many clean shots compared to Mayweather. Mayweather was simply in a different class.

by Sponsored content