The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the collage of great current hookers pictures on the bar. We've got Tincu, Ledesma, Ford, Best, Thompson and Bennett all in action. Graffiti's a banning offence

So pull up a chair....what'll it be?




Previous pub: https://www.606v2.com/t13864-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-pub#475041

Notch wrote:

MrsP wrote:Semi-permanent?



Still not exactly nomandic though is it?

How many years till we have groups of people who say that it is not in their culture to seek employment? Their parents never had a job and their grandparents never had a job and...

Now I am not saying that we should endeavor to erradicate the Traveller's culture but any society can only exist if people are willing to uphold their responsibilities whilst claiming their rights, no?

I think a lot of the time, it is the travellers themselves who exclude themselves from wider society, not the other way around but we can not have a completely different set of standards or laws for any group who say it is not in their culture to abide by them.

I think the emphasis on jobs here is a poor one. You have employment as part of an implicit social contract; you have a job, you pay tax so that you may avail of services that make life better for everyone. I have no problem with people who don't actively look for work if they are a) entirely self-sufficient or b) add value to society in other ways than tax revenue. So long as a parasitic relationship doesn't develop where one half of the social contract is not being fulfilled.

The problem is there's no scope to exist outside of mainstream society which I find very troubling.

And yeah, if you moved to a campsite and there were a block of toilets constructed that is a permanent structure. Your caravan is a mobile structure. If you move on, you'll leave the toilet blocks behind you. That's nomadic but involving the construction of permanent structures.

I don;t see how semi-permanent structures aren't nomadic. Surely the definition is not living in a permanently fixed structure like a house?

You must agree Notch that some of the structures on Dale Farm are less than temporary and more than toilet blocks.

Plus to add the elephant in the room - there's the small matter of the Leighton Buzzard gypsy enslavement charge which is currently sub judice.

These people have lived there for 10 years!

I can't see how that is nomadic?

How many of these dwellings are mobile?

I agree that there isn't really a way to live outside of society whilst still availing of the services provided by that society. But that is the problem. As you describe it, half of the contract is not being fulfilled.

No easy solutions I agree.

MrsP wrote:These people have lived there for 10 years!

I can't see how that is nomadic?

How many of these dwellings are mobile?

I agree that there isn't really a way to live outside of society whilst still availing of the services provided by that society. But that is the problem. As you describe it, half of the contract is not being fulfilled.

No easy solutions I agree.

But would you not agree MrsP, that in the big scheme of things, this is just a distraction?
War, famine, global warming etc. etc. are driven by much greater threats than a bunch of travellers stuck in a tiny enclave of Essex.

In Nederland, travelers and the very poor/disenfranchised - have sites built for them around the country. They can move between them/exchange - on agreement. This made me so happy I lived here, when I saw how the lowest denomination were amply taken care of. I was happy to pay high taxes to facilitate this. It said so much about this country. I love it. They are kept beautifully and look like well designed holiday- camps. Nicer than Butlins. In fact, thats what I thought they were when I saw them 1st. Most people react positively when they are given the chance. Given the chance to attain and preserve their own dignity.

But they MUST take that chance when given it. Irish Travelers don't on the whole. I have seen situations where they were given houses in Limerick and Dublin and they wrecked them.

Well, MrsP we'll have a race. Why don't you and your family compete with a typical family from Dale Farm to see who can move their house to the other end of the country the fastest? That way we can test it in practice!

One part of the site has permanent structures, on land they own, that they were granted planning permission to construct so I'm ignoring those structures. They were denied planning permission to construct on the other part of land but have erected semi-permanent structures as I understand it.

Remember, Councils used to be obliged to provide land for caravans but this provision of law was removed. So we have sites that are becoming increasingly permanent because they have nowhere else to go.

Complicating this, there are racial issues and to muddy the waters further reasonable objections are often met with (unfounded) grouping with the genuine racial diatribes and thinking.

They have said that people evicted from the site will be rehoused, but they will be rehoused in permanent accommodation against their wishes.

I think a large part of the problem is that we can't have people with a different way of life to us cohabiting the same island. They are being squished and molded into the urban working class- against their will. Thats the conclusion I have to draw. They are dealing with a widespread hostility everywhere they go.

Gibson wrote:In Nederland, travelers and the very poor/disenfranchised - have sites built for them around the country. They can move between them/exchange - on agreement. This made me so happy I lived here, when I saw how the lowest denomination were amply taken care of. I was happy to pay high taxes to facilitate this. It said so much about this country. I love it. They are kept beautifully and look like well designed holiday- camps. Nicer than Butlins. In fact, thats what I thought they were when I saw them 1st. Most people react positively when they are given the chance. Given the chance to attain and preserve their own dignity.

But they MUST take that chance when given it. Irish Travelers don't on the whole. I have seen situations where they were given houses Limerick and Dublin and they wrecked them.

Every word of this post is true and correct. It's difficult to walk the trapeze between emphasising rights and responsibilities in cases like this. I have little sympathy for many on either side, truth be told. But the provision of sites is a necessity. And they don't have it.

Portnoy if it was your land you would soon want them off there. I'm not even sure why you would compare a local issue with other global problems.
If my water pipe bursts in the loft I'm not going to sit wondering if I should donate the repair money to charity or use it to pay a plumber.

Caring about one does not preclude caring about the other.

If you saying we should not seek to address the smaller issues until the bigger ones are dealt with you will not get much done.

Should we not treat people with arthritis until we have cured all the cancers? Should we not worry about burglary until all the murders are behind bars?

I mean, you can;t look at programs like Big Fat Gypsy Weddings and think we give them a fair deal. It's like a zoo, certain reality TV shows. Put together so we can look through the bars and mock and laugh. That's dehumanising.

The Dale Farm campaigners are doing themselves no good.

All this crap about victimisation is bollix when they put themselves in a position of danger. Actually it reminds me of the Troubles when kids were put in the front line.

Then as now I agree with the legitimate dispute. But the tactics are atrocious.

Jesus don't want them in my area I cant be bothered being sat in a queue because some traveller is haggling with a shopkeeper because he thinks it's a god given right that he has to pay less than the asking price.

Here comes the Hippy bit...

There is enough land, enough food and enough money - to take care of everyone on this Planet. But, its does not suit the Powers that Be, to keep everyone happy and content. That, to them - would be a financial disaster (yeah I KNOW, they did it on their own anyway) . Who would clean their houses or be their corporate slave-labour? It wouldn't work for them. Profits would dip. They need poverty and Wars to exist. They feed on it like sharks. Have done for eons.

All it would take is the Global Will.The UN is a running joke. A front for Yanks (and their Allies) to control it all Ban charities, because they are not working. Charity to support any cause is a misnomer, imo. They are just feeding the problem and not the solution. I never give to them and I never will. Governments should sort that out.

Red-Nose Day? Religious Orders selling food for souls? Pah!

Notch,

Never seen the programme but I think most "Reality TV" is like that no matter who the participants/victims!

The problem remains when people want to benefit from the rights of society without fulfilling the responsibilities.

On the permanent/semipermantent point. Are you saying that some of the travellers wanted to build permanent dwellings but were denied planning permission? Does that not kind of go against the description of Traveller? Was that even the sequence of events or was the planning permission sought retrospectively?

If they applied for planning permission then I presume they owned the land ?.

Gibbo,

And...in the meantime we let them starve?

Cymro,

They do own the land although I don't think that is a requirement that is necessary for you to apply for planning permission.

No we don't let them starve but try and educate them that if they cant feed themselves they should not have kids.

http://www.rugby365.com/news/2793485.html

Martyn Williams has suffered a broken arm. I'm very surprised as when the teams were coming off at Ravenhill he was standing with the rest of the Blues players being applauded by the home side before applauding them off the field. With a broken arm! What a guy. Possibly whacked out on painkillers.

He got a great reception when he came off. I was very conscious of having watched one of the great opensides of recent years at Ravenhill and as this may well be his last visit I was sure to give him a good ovation. The rest of the crowd may well have felt the same.

Certainly I was on the same wavelength as the rest of the crowd when it came to the reception Xavier Rush received. A popular choice of yellow card for James Jones

Notch wrote:I mean, you can;t look at programs like Big Fat Gypsy Weddings and think we give them a fair deal. It's like a zoo, certain reality TV shows. Put together so we can look through the bars and mock and laugh. That's dehumanising.

Yes. Exactly. Perception in the X-Factor Generation actually scares me. Who are the low-lives there? I suggest the people who watch and encourage it from their armchairs. It makes them feel good about themselves. Gives them a laugh and makes them feel superior above others. It works. In an advanced and civilised Society (yeah right) - programs like that should be treated like hard-porn. Banned.

We live in a very sick World and the media feed off it. And the average Joe-punter loves it.

Oh man. I need a spliff. What a time to give up smoking dope.

Only the owner of the land or property can apply for planning.

MrsP wrote:Notch,

Never seen the programme but I think most "Reality TV" is like that no matter who the participants/victims!

The problem remains when people want to benefit from the rights of society without fulfilling the responsibilities.

On the permanent/semipermantent point. Are you saying that some of the travellers wanted to build permanent dwellings but were denied planning permission? Does that not kind of go against the description of Traveller? Was that even the sequence of events or was the planning permission sought retrospectively?

Planning permission was sought retrospectively. They own all of the land in question.

Cymroglan wrote:Jesus don't want them in my area I cant be bothered being sat in a queue because some traveller is haggling with a shopkeeper because he thinks it's a god given right that he has to pay less than the asking price.

Gypsies always get a bad press - like teenagers.

The only things that get the headlines are the bad ones.

If that kid that flagrantly nicked a bottle of wine had offered the shop to replace it would he have been let off like a thieving MP?

That's why I ambivalent about the travellers. It's not the small things (however much they are annoying) - it's the barrel of s h i t that we all have our heads stuck in.

This probably goes some way to explain why I rail against the pub sometimes.

Cymroglan wrote:Only the owner of the land or property can apply for planning.

They own the land!

Notch thats what I said

I don't think that is the case Cymro, not here anyway. Unless there has been a recent change.

I am certainly no expert though.

Land laws are different in different parts of the UK.I'm not sure about the ins and outs as I don't intend to be a landowner in the foreseeable future.

MrsP wrote:Gibbo,

And...in the meantime we let them starve?

No. Of course not. But they need to be educated on birth-control, given water to drink and food to eat. Educated out of it in the meantime.
Continually feeding human-disaster areas, without getting to the root of the problem is a waste of time. You only save them temporarily. They will die in their millions for 100's of years to come, if we don't shift emphasis and use the money to get them water to grow their own crops. Give them dignity. Not charity

SUR Baab Geldorf admitted that not long after he tried to Save The World. A complete waste of time in the end. His gig just prolonged the agony. He knows that now

Portnoy I don't base me opinions on what the media report this is all first hand experience.
We have had a problem on Anglesey with travellers for a very long time due to the fact that Holyhead is the gateway to Ireland and it's a port often used by the travellers.
The Gypsy has always been romanticised but these modern day travellers are a different kettle of fish.
Thousand of Irish people pass through the port each year and are obviously welcomed here but as soon as we see the Transit&Caravan brigade arrive you know it means trouble,

But isn't that what charities do?

I agree that the governments of some countries (and others) are content to allow their population to continue as in thoiugh.

Much like building somebody a house and ignoring the fact it's ontop of a sinkhole.

Good intentions are undone by underlying problems. I give to several charities because even though I know they are ineffective I also know that there will be no meaningful change in the government's of the worlds position and also there is no way for me to influence this through any democratic process.

Democracy is a bit of a sham because the government keeps getting in. We don't really have any way of influencing events other than donating to charity. Money is the only thing that has a bearing on the world, not votes.

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:Gibbo,

And...in the meantime we let them starve?

No. Of course not. But they need to be educated on birth-control, given water to drink and food to eat. Educated out of it in the meantime.
Continually feeding human-disaster areas, without getting to the root of the problem is a waste of time. You only save them temporarily. They will die in their millions for 100's of years to come, if we don't.

SUR Baab Geldorf admitted that not long after he tried to Save The World. A complete waste of time in the end. His gig just prolonged the agony. He knows that now

Entirely agree.

Just got to get the Politico/econo global infrastructure nexus on-side.

Before the water wars start preferably...

We donate millions to India a country that has a third of the worlds poor living there yet they have a space programme.

Ye feicers have me worrying about starving babies and social-injustice now. Thanks a lot! Nah, I do it to myself. Really rips me. Most of the time.

I'm watching the Irish game for the 3rd time now. Feic it. We can save the World later.

That Ireland Call girlie rendition is embarrassing though.

Sure as hell I'd prefer a couple of dozen MPs and ten times more bwankers inside than a few rioting kids or evicted travellers.

Travellers at the UK's largest illegal travellers' site, at Dale Farm, Essex, have won a court injunction delaying their planned eviction.

Residents won the injunction restraining Basildon Council from clearing the site pending a further High Court hearing on Friday

Soooo,

What's the solution to Dale Farm then Notch?

I can't get used to that name as we had a local Dairy Company called that not far from here and everytime I hear it I think we have travellers at Loopland!

Delaying the inevitable Mrs P.

The travellers will have to re-learn how to mobilise themselves in a physical sense.

Two future rugby TV commentator and pundit Stars. Alan Quinlan and Girv Dempsey respectively. Great to have intelligent, experienced players, who know what they are talking about and with minimal bias. Refreshing.

Hook and Francis OUT, RTE/Setanta and those boys in.

Agree on Girv the swerve but not Quinlan.

I don't think he added anything in his commentary that wasn't already completely obvious to anyone watching.

Mind you, I would probably take him over Fran!

It's not a case of having a solution to it as much as addressing the underlying problems. If the system wasn't biased against them it may never have come to this. If they took a little more personal responsibility it may never have come to this either.

They need space, the council should have a duty to provide that space. They have responsibility to cohabit peacefully with settled communities. A more positive dialogue is required but the situation has degenerated to the point where it's open hostility. Was preventable.

Gibson wrote:Two future rugby TV commentator and pundit Stars. Alan Quinlan and Girv Dempsey respectively.

Only over here Gibbo, and Alan Quinlan has to make audio tapes for wimmin. The man's voice is like warm Irish butter....

Girv's all right to work over there though.

I'm disappointed MrsP is actually bothering with what Quinny is saying when he talks...

What does the pub feel about France's chances? They have been pretty much ignored in v2.

They are the realistic dark horses for me.

Are you all on skype ?

The council had already allowed several hundred travellers to build on that site!

How many should they have allowed for?

I think any solution that involves an obligation to provide sites can not be left to councils. How does a rural council accomidate and pay for that number of extra people arriving in a short space of time?

Should there be a big fund paid for by the travellers from which these sites can be provided?

Totally agree that there has to be give and take but it would appear to be one sided at the moment.

Afternoon folks


It's been a few manic days and I'm on the couch in a heap from it all.



What can I say about Saturday?? None of ye would listen to me, I said it all along that we would win. I'll he back after the final to remind you all about how I've said we will win the World Cup as well



As for today. I can confirm that Yes I have been banned from Chez Asbo on a Sunday night by Ms Asbo, I've the text to prove it



As for charities I only give to one, basically because I aggression with a lot of what gibbo has been saying, but I give to the RNLI whenever I can

Yeah I am now Cymro. SKYPE that is. Only reason being my son is orf to Oz soon.

Gowan Hugmeister ya boy ya! You Believed and I love ya for it man.

But, would we have beaten them with Pocock, Moore and Ioane? I doubt it. But we'll never know now and dont need to. Lets be honest here. Lady Luck came our way and we took full advantage of Her. Fair enuf. That's the way it goes sometimes.

Something to do whilst you're in the loo...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2039006/Plumbking-new-planking-people-use-toilet-capture-crazier-poses.html

Portnoy wrote:What does the pub feel about France's chances? They have been pretty much ignored in v2.

They are the realistic dark horses for me.

Portnoy,
To me they always were. If they beat NZ, they will actually be doing them a weird favour. But they wont. AB's wont let anyone beat them, even if it improves their chances in the knockouts. Why should they? They are the best team in the World by far. Just have to conclusively prove it in their own pad. By beating everyone on the way and winning it.

We would have won gibbo I'm sure of it, the players believed they knew the importance of that game, our entire world cup hinged on it

hughie1986 wrote:We would have won gibbo I'm sure of it, the players believed they knew the importance of that game, our entire world cup hinged on it

It would have been harder Hugs, but watching it again bud, I agree with you. Our intensity-levels were silly. Oz just could not cope with it. It just gets better with each viewing. Healy looked like a controlled madman. As did Best, as did Ferris, as did POC & DOC. But SOB is taking de pish. He could be the Star of this RWC. No doubt.