Best back row in world rugby?

Wich country in the world has the best back row? hear are some of the options
[list][*] The Irish Backrow of Ferris, Healsip and o'brien were outstanding against Australia and can definetly clame to be the best in the Northern Hemisphere. All three should make the Lions squad in 2013.
* The Welsh backrown of Lydiate, Faletau and Warburton again were superb against South Africa however lack of game time together as a unit counts against them. its is als questionable wherether faletau could keep his place following a Ryan Jones return. Potential however is huge.
* in terms of depth France can claim that scalp amongst northern hemisphere countries and i am a huge fan of a Bonnaire, Harinordoquy and Dusautoir combination. However Lievremont clearly disagrees with me and like to chuck in Picamoles and Ouedraogo which counts against them being the best back row as no really knows there best settled unit.
* a couple of years ago South Africa seemed heads and shoulders above the rest of the competition with a Smith, Spies and Brussouw became the Lions bane, not to mention Burger waiting in the wings. The emergence of Willhelm Alberts adds to an already incredible depth however they came out second best against a young welsh backrow therefore can be ruled out of contention. ( albeit without Juan Smith)
* In a Elsom, Samo and Pocock combination there is a talented outfit mixing experience and youth however the amount of times these three have played together amount to twice wich rules them out.
For my the best back-row in world rugby is the new zealand trio of Kaino, read and Mccaw wich thankfully may still be seen in this world cup due to a quicker retrn to fitness for Read. Has made the 6,7 and 8 shirts for new zealand there own for the last couple of years and is embarrisingly good when you consider Kaino is probably the worst of the three!!!

I think having the best back row combo is a bit different from having the best individual's. They have to complement each other. The Scottish "Killer B's" were good not so long ago. What happened there? I think the young Welsh back rowers have a big future. They look quality. Warburton will be a Lion. But it's far to soon to talk about them competing for best in the world status. Looking good though.

Interestingly the Irish backrow trio that played together the other day was a brand new combination. Ferris and O'Brien had never started together before. They're both blindsides. O'Brien played out of position at openside, due to David Wallace's untimely injury. But who needs a proper openside to do the work on the floor? Just don't let the tackled player to fall to the floor. Seriously though I'd reserve judgement on the Irish until I see how they progress in the tournament without a recognized "fetcher". South Africa didn't seem to feel the need for one in the last World Cup. But they've seen the value of Brussow.

I'd agree that New Zealand currently have the best trio. I wonder what would happen if they lost McCaw though? We saw the Aussie back row without Pocock. They got outplayed.

Worsley, Moody and Easter

New Zealand closely followed by Ireland for me.

i would say between ireland and wales for best in northern hemisphere, both excellent back rows. but for me new zealand's backrow are immense, as a blindside myself i enjoy watching lydiate and believe he is the most underrated player in the welsh squad but watching kaino is just awesome, his work rate and skill levels are off the park, no need to mention McCaw as whats not been said about him? plays right on the edge and sometimes over it if he can (like all good backrowers) also think although reid is a massive loss i think vito has done a good job as a replacement. for me its new zealand, then ireland/wales, then SA then Aus

The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

Jeebus!

I wouldn't swap Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip and Wallace for anyone.

However its hard to look past Kaino, Reid and McCaw. Thats an amazing backrow and the best for me.

France can put out a number of world class combinations and SA's backrow is pretty monsterous although I'm not convinced about Spies at 8.

The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

But the Welsh backrow keeps getting outmuscled in many rugby matches particularly when they have to face the likes of the Samoan backrow. For me the South Africans could field the best backrow in World Rugby if they have a trio combination of Burger at 6, Spies at 7 and Kankowski at 8.

I think we have to be careful before judging our (Ireland's) new backrow combination off of one game where the Oz were missing by far their most influential and important backrow player. I get goosepimples thinking of what SOB, Ferris and Heaslip might start doing if Heaslip suddenly kicks into gear too. But there's only so much that power and wrecking ball play can do for you when you come up against a wily and experienced backrow combo with a top-class fetcher/groundhog.

In that sense I don't think Ireland can lay claim to the best backrow. Probably the most fearsome and most potent. But I'd give anything for one of them to have the ground skills of a McCaw, a Brussow, a Pocock or even a Warburton. It's just a completely different game.

"In that sense I don't think Ireland can lay claim to the best backrow. Probably the most fearsome and most potent. But I'd give anything for one of them to have the ground skills of a McCaw, a Brussow, a Pocock or even a Warburton. It's just a completely different game."

What about Neil Back?

gboycottnut wrote:"In that sense I don't think Ireland can lay claim to the best backrow. Probably the most fearsome and most potent. But I'd give anything for one of them to have the ground skills of a McCaw, a Brussow, a Pocock or even a Warburton. It's just a completely different game."

What about Neil Back?

Sorry he's a bit young for our team

roddersm wrote:I wouldn't swap Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip and Wallace for anyone.

However its hard to look past Kaino, Reid and McCaw. Thats an amazing backrow and the best for me.

Rodders Id agree with you on all of it and I mentioned on another thread that I think Ireland can be a lot better than they were against Australia and I think the back row in particular can be better. Defensivly they were brillant but ball in hand they arent a patch on their best at the minute

Marty I think Ferris and O'Brien are awesome at the minute but Heaslip is well below his best. As a unit the jury is still out. Wallace is superhuman and Jennings underrated too.

I'm very happy with the players we have but the NZ trio are the best for me and there's a few others that could claim to be up there.

Maybe its just with it being against top class opposition they don't look as good as when theyre playing in the league but Ferris definately seems half a yard slower coming back from injury and just missing a bit when hes taking on a man

marty2086 wrote:Maybe its just with it being against top class opposition they don't look as good as when theyre playing in the league but Ferris definately seems half a yard slower coming back from injury and just missing a bit when hes taking on a man

I would say Ferris is in the form of his life and looking better with each game. It's hard to say if he's any slower since the latest injury but he hasn't had much space to run into in any of the recent games. As a no 6 he's doing everything you want and more and only Kaino has been better or comparable so far this tournament. Thats what I think anyways.....

roddersm wrote: I would say Ferris is in the form of his life and looking better with each game. It's hard to say if he's any slower since the latest injury but he hasn't had much space to run into in any of the recent games. As a no 6 he's doing everything you want and more and only Kaino has been better or comparable so far this tournament. Thats what I think anyways.....

I agree, Ferris is a real world class talent and to see him come back from what was feared to be a career ending injury, and then run riot at the world cup is just fantastic. Also think O'Brien is a fantastic player and they both have to feature for Ireland. Just annoys me that they are both 6s, like nearly every other really talented back rower for Ireland..

Croft, Wood, Haskell. MJ knows if he ever started that backrow the world would explode (ala crossing the beams) so we always see Moody or Easter shoved in to save us all.

yappysnap wrote:Croft, Wood, Haskell. MJ knows if he ever started that backrow the world would explode (ala crossing the beams) so we always see Moody or Easter shoved in to save us all.

I cant disagree there..

gboycottnut wrote:The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

Why not the Welsh back row out played the Springbok one a few weeks ago, and we have beaten England and Ireland this season.
Their work rate is amazing, there isnt a more mobile, fitter or more promising unit in world rugby.

AlynDavies wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

Why not the Welsh back row out played the Springbok one a few weeks ago, and we have beaten England and Ireland this season.
Their work rate is amazing, there isnt a more mobile, fitter or more promising unit in world rugby.

But they got outmuscled by the Samoan backrow in the weekend did they not?

AlynDavies wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

Why not the Welsh back row out played the Springbok one a few weeks ago, and we have beaten England and Ireland this season.
Their work rate is amazing, there isnt a more mobile, fitter or more promising unit in world rugby.

Alyn you can hardly count the warm up games as Ireland have shown they arent the best indicator of form and Falatau didnt play in the 6 Nations so give the back row time they have shown they are capable but need do it over time

I have no idea why Lievremont hasn't given the Dusautoir, Harinordoquy, Picamoles combination a go in his years in charge.

France has the best in the NH, followed by Ireland. NZ is the best in the world, SA is a top no.8 short of being right up there with them (Juan Smith almost makes up for it).

For me the northern hemisphere has the best number 8s in the world, especially France. Picamoles, Harinordoquy, Parisse, Heaslip, potentially Faletau and others. For the southern hemisphere teams I only really rate Read and Fernandez Lobbe. Spies is not consistent enough and is rarely inspiring.

marty2086 wrote:[Alyn you can hardly count the warm up games as Ireland have shown they arent the best indicator of form and Falatau didnt play in the 6 Nations so give the back row time they have shown they are capable but need do it over time

Sure that's fair enough, but they are worth a mention, especially since after the world Cup they will probably go the way of all promising Welsh talent, start strutting round like they own Wales, and stop developing and striving to be better. It always happens to our potential World class players!

I'm really impressed by the Welsh backrow, but i'd like to see how they go in their second international season. Will they be figured out or carry on blazing a trail?

next year it'll be Croft, Robshaw and Haskell.

The Welsh back row need time as do the Irish the only difference is the Irish have proven themselves consistantly as individuals the Welsh but both do look like they can do great things its just a shame Shane Williams won't be around to benefit from them

Lydiate, Faletau and Warburton have the potential. Warburton is pushing to be up there (and actually is probably not far off) McCaw, Brussouw and Pocock. Faletau has only come through so there is still something of an unknown quantity about him. Looks awesome though.

Robshaw hasnt impressed me whenever i have seen him in the flesh. I dont think he is the answer for England. He got nailed by Spence in pre season and looked worse for wear. He also wasnt great against the Ireland A at Ravenhill. (i may be being harsh but thats my present view)
Croft isnt good enough in the tight exchanges to be a 6. great lineout option and great in the open spaces though. Haskell looks in good nick at present mind you he needs some backup. Tom Wood is another who i think will be top class.

Ferris looks in awesome shape Marty. He has been Hill-esque in the last few performances. They dont have to be making the big carries against Aus to show this (although SOB was clearly making hay as they tired). They constantly break the gain line however and watch any ruck that Fez hit. I dont think we lost a ball if he hit the ruck. Unbeleivable power. Couple that with his embarrassment of Genia and the huge hit on Horwill which killed the momentum of one Oz attack and they look superb. There will be other games were they can get on the front foot. Ireland needed this one to be an arm wrestle and thats what they made it

gboycottnut wrote:The Welsh backrow has a couple of decent games and you're putting them up there with the NZ, SA and Irish combinations?

But the Welsh backrow keeps getting outmuscled in many rugby matches particularly when they have to face the likes of the Samoan backrow. For me the South Africans could field the best backrow in World Rugby if they have a trio combination of Burger at 6, Spies at 7 and Kankowski at 8.

sorry mate, are you high? Burger is playing brilliantly at the moment, Spies and Kankowski are pretty good, but WTF? they have one of, if not THE best opensides, and Juan Smith is the Flip dogs Love sacks IMO. to be fair theres alot of talent in the backrows of all nations but Burger, Brussow and Smith(none r 8 though) are awesome. The back row you posted is pants.

Would prob have to agree with most others that NZ(shock!) r top at the moment- touch and go for best player man for man but in their position all top 3 in the world at least.

Of quality it has to be Ireland or New Zealand.

Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip can be a real force, three good ball carriers, a player of the year, a beast of a blindside flanker and Heaslip who is in and around the top five best 8's in World Rugby.

New Zealand are just a force all over the field though, Kaino, McCaw and Read can destroy any team single handily.

Ireland need a top class 7. O'Brien is world class, but not a 7.

disneychilly wrote:Ireland need a top class 7. O'Brien is world class, but not a 7.

I agree with this. Although the choke tackle worked brilliantly against Australia in getting turnovers without a fetcher. Here's a link to them using it effectively against England in the Six Nations too. It's very effective when you can follow it up with a good scrum. I'm sure opposition coaches will be figuring out how to combat this as we speak. I'd say it's just a case of getting numbers in to force your man onto the ground to make it a ruck. Maybe Australia should have been better prepared.

I personally thought O'Brien had his best game for Ireland yet at 7 in that match, although I don't know if it would have been a different story had Pocock been playing.

haha kingjohn couldnt agree with you more what is he on?
Kankowski is a waste of talent and as he is so quick he is overhyped he thinks he is a back half the time and he will never get a starting place on that backrow. Spies has potential but he is off colour and has been for some time i think he hasnt had a good super rugby season for 2 years now.

Smith and Burger, albeit is a very dirty but still a very talented player, are right up there and brussouw is a great option at causing havoc in turnovers and if spies can regain some form that is a very potent backrow.

IMO the two best flankers are pocock and mccaw in every department of the game they are a coach's dream so efficient. Ireland atm have the best back row, wales have potential but they are somewhat of an unknown quantity being so young but are ones for the future.
In today's game most countries have strong back rows but obvs some are class and others are world class!

SA has the best backrow depth, NZ has the best backrow.

I have a theory about Heaslips "poor" form lately - but Im not sure - could it be something to do with the fact that, because Ferris and SOB are crazy and charge about the place taht Heaslip is doing teh 7 job in the rucks, he is the best of teh 3 at it? I havent really looked so cant be sure but I believe the best combo of the 3 would be with SOB at 8 anyway and Heaslip as the fetcher?

NZ for me. Ok their front five takes the pressure off, but they are amazing.

I don't think Ireland have the depth or balance to be considered the best.

Man-for-man, Ferris, Heaslip and O'Brien are the equal of any back-row in the world, but, they don't have the balance of Wales, or the tri-nations sides. While Wallace is a true 7, he's probably not quite of the same standard as McCaw, Pocock, Brussouw. Also, when you look outside the main four, Ireland don't possess the same depth as, say, SA. whose back-row resources are seemingly limitless.

Finally, what does this discussion reveal about England? They're the only major team not being mentioned. What is it that England lack?

Wallace isn't a true 7 either though, but he would be the nearest thing to it. He is another 6.5 player.. we just don't have many opensides. Jennings and O'Connor are probably the only ones we do have, with Faloon for Ulster as well who for some strange reason can't even get gametime for Ulster right now.

I think England have the potential to have a world class backrow. However England's problem is not knowing their best players, and chopping and changing over and over similar to France. They also don't seem to even try to get a balance. They need a complete change in their backrow, Croft doesn't cut it for example and will never be up there with the likes of O'Brien, Ferris, Kaino etc. They need a proper openside and a solid 8. To me their best backrow will be something like this:

6) Robshaw
7) This is up for grabs
8) Crane

Crane is very solid and is a younger, better version of Easter and I believe he suits England's gameplan perfectly. Robshaw adds a huge boost to the pack, and his work in the tight will allow the backs to play their own game. At 7, there are a few options to be looked at and by the 6 nations one of the 7s may have put up their hand to be selected internationally.

That's a good point re the lack of England back-row support.

Do we have any international class 7's at all, current or future? And if not then why not?

For me, Easter lacks that essential dynamic power at 8. Who's next in line?

Does anybody here rate Haskell? And if so where would you play him?

I rate Haskell, at 8.

I would say currently in order:

New Zealand
France
South Africa
Ireland
Wales