Nadal Mulls sacking Uncle Toni

http://www.rediff.com/sports/report/nadal-mulls-sacking-coach-toni-following-us-open-loss/20110919.htm

That has got to be a tough choice to fire your uncle after all he has meant to Nadal's career. I don't know if it comes down to Toni's lacking of coaching why he is losing these finals. But you know desperate times call for desperate measures.

I am actually excited about this move. Imagine a Nadal with many more aspects to his game (flat hitting, serve and volley, more aggressive play, better serve etc). This could push him to greater glory, and is a very well-timed decision!

It's madness, imo. Uncle Toni is the reason Rafa is top 20 (as a right hander he'd be nothing like the force he is - Federer would eat him for breakfast, for instance).

Anyway, he has to do something so good luck to him.

BB, a new coach could add many more dimensions to his game!

I'll believe it when I see it - Nadal is certainly saying that the dynamic of the relationship has changed, which one would expect as he becomes older.

If Toni does go Nadal may be hinting that it would be as much to do with what Toni wants as what Nadal wants. If you have children of your own 10yrs plus is a long time to spend being the mentor to your brother's child.

Goodness knows what would happen if he chose another coach - his reaction to his family's problems in 2009 suggests that there might be quite a long bedding-in period.

Well tennisonarak when things don't go well you can't fire the player but you can't get rid of the coach. It does show that Nadal is deadly serious about doing something about his losing streak against Novak.

Tennisanorak wrote:BB, a new coach could add many more dimensions to his game!

Or he could hire Todd Martin

"If other people outside my family said to me what he says, then it would be very difficult to keep working together"

He wants to be like other 25-year-olds...

I actually feel it's Toni who wants to pull out. He has senn his protege achieving far beyond than he had hoped but now sees that he has reached the end of his potential.

If they really feel that their relationship is beginning to run its course, the interesting question is who out there Nadal might replace Uncle Toni with. So far Nadal has thrived on a very close-knit family/Spanish team.

Either he needs to find someone who can fit into a similar team (probably difficult for a non-spanish speaker) or he needs to make really huge changes.

Fed has twice spent long periods with no lead tennis coach, Murray too, can we see Nadal spending a bit of time with no coach?

He needs somebody who doesn't tell him when to go to the bathroom. Must speak spanish though.

Manuel Orantes?

Leff wrote:He needs somebody who doesn't tell him when to go to the bathroom. Must speak spanish though.

Manuel Orantes?

Jose Higueras would be an intriguing choice given that he worked with Federer during 2008.

Maybe I've missed something but that article appears to be saying that Nadals relationship with his uncle has changed not that he's sacking him as a coach.

I sometimes wonder about the effect of Toni making pronouncements about how this or that player is "better than Rafa" has on Nadals confidence. Odd for a player of his calibre but maybe what he needs in a coach is someone to focus on how good he is compared to other players. Being humble is no bad thing as he never underestimates an opponant. However IMO he may be guilty of overestimating certain opponants and playing in an uncharacteristic nervy way.

Nadals willingness to make subtle changes in his game and the intensity he puts into practice indicate that he is open to advice. This is a posative thing as it means he is able to use a coach. Not all players are open enough to be able to do so. Thinking of Murray as he often appears to view advice as critism. IMO Nadal shouldn't go without a coach for the simple reason he is able to make use of one.

I think 'if' he decides to go down that route, it would be catastrophic. If he was ever going to break away from Toni, it should've been after 2006. The problem is not so much the coaching itself, but the relationship involved with coaching. Sometimes it can work and sometimes it can't. Look how many women who after being coached by parents or family relatives have a dramatic slump in form because the little comforts of having family involved is taken away and it becomes a much more brutal environment. I think Toni has done amazing wonders with Nadal. not only turned him into a world beater of a player but also cultivated Nadal into the person he is.

It is well documented how Rafa has little 'rituals' on court and that any disruption can lead to complacency. Splitting from your coach who has been there from day 1 would have a much more profound effect. I am not sure Rafa is mentally strong or capable enough to accept changes 'environmentally'

Tenez wrote:I actually feel it's Toni who wants to pull out. He has senn his protege achieving far beyond than he had hoped but now sees that he has reached the end of his potential.

Yes, that Toni has reached the end of his coaching potential.
Nadal is a player we all know who has a thirst to improve, perhaps more than any other player on tour - which is amazing when he's already been in the top 2 for 6 years running. Nadal /Toni have been fine when they were in the ascendancy but now that a new challenge has come along I suspect Nadal is finding that Toni hasnt got the answers anymore, I also suspect that Toni has been great at drilling Nadal in certain routines, etc, but isnt a great technical strategist. The importance of coaches in players successes is overrated in my book - not having one hasnt hindered Federer much, or Murray to a lesser extent - but they are useful when things are going not quite right.
You can tell by some of the words Nadal is using that he doesnt like being bossed around by Toni anymore and needs a new, more equitable relationship where he has more say. Because they have worked together since he was 4 yrs old this has probably given Toni an ever persuasive feeling of being his senior and it affects Nadal being able to challenge him...I think its a reflection of Nadal maturing and needing new advice.

legendkillar wrote: I think 'if' he decides to go down that route, it would be catastrophic.

I dont agree with that, I suspect Nadal has got as much out of Toni as he's going to need. I also think people underestimate Nadal's ability to make his own decisions, the guy isnt stupid and its not Toni winning matches out there on court.
Also, the very fact they are family might make Nadal want a change after all this time...it might be getting more suffocating over time to have to constantly work with and HAVE to listen to your uncle out of family respect (which they have) as much as anything else.
I dont think a change would harm him now, maybe 2-3 years it would have done. But he's his own man now and his thirst for winning shows no sign of abating...whereas with Toni perhaps it is....?

lydian wrote:

legendkillar wrote: I think 'if' he decides to go down that route, it would be catastrophic.

I dont agree with that, I suspect Nadal has got as much out of Toni as he's going to need. I also think people underestimate Nadal's ability to make his own decisions, the guy isnt stupid and its not Toni winning matches out there on court.
Also, the very fact they are family might make Nadal want a change after all this time...it might be getting more suffocating over time to have to constantly work with and HAVE to listen to your uncle out of family respect (which they have) as much as anything else.
I dont think a change would harm him now, maybe 2-3 years it would have done. But he's his own man now and his thirst for winning shows no sign of abating...whereas with Toni perhaps it is....?

As much as I agree he needs change lydian, he is too much of a creature of habit to adapt to change. That is the more difficult obstacle to over-come. I don't think he can do that without a serious drop in form.

legendkillar wrote:I think 'if' he decides to go down that route, it would be catastrophic. If he was ever going to break away from Toni, it should've been after 2006. The problem is not so much the coaching itself, but the relationship involved with coaching. Sometimes it can work and sometimes it can't. Look how many women who after being coached by parents or family relatives have a dramatic slump in form because the little comforts of having family involved is taken away and it becomes a much more brutal environment. I think Toni has done amazing wonders with Nadal. not only turned him into a world beater of a player but also cultivated Nadal into the person he is.

It is well documented how Rafa has little 'rituals' on court and that any disruption can lead to complacency. Splitting from your coach who has been there from day 1 would have a much more profound effect. I am not sure Rafa is mentally strong or capable enough to accept changes 'environmentally'

Toni has for a long time (or as long as I can remember) been only a part time coach. Nadal playes quite a few tounaments already without him being around so I doubt it would be as big a change as some would imagine. He would still be his uncle so its not as if he would ever cut ties completely.

But still see little in the link that suggest that they may split...

A relationship that started between an adult and a 4-yr-old is inevitably going to change when the 4-yr-old becomes a 25-yr-old multi-slam winner. It's always necessary to keep running and changing to stay at the top, and Djoko's recent form introduces an additional and very specific need for Nadal to change something.

I'm sure that there are major changes coming in Nadal's professional life - he's never one to stand still. Even if that means that Toni's role is greatly diminished, which is far from clear, the one thing that will never happen is that the end of their relationship could fairly be described as a 'sacking'.

Agree barrystar, I would suspect that Toni would move upstairs as they say in football, to kind of direct Nadal's tennis activities with another coach taking over day to day performance, etc. Nadal would never "sack" a family member like Toni, it would just be a change of emphasis, or even a strong reason given why Toni couldnt continue such as the need to stay with his family....but he'll obviosuly always have some input into Nadal's career whatever happens, I'm sure Rafa respects his views too much to never listen.

All these folk saying it's about using Toni up and moving on are ignoring the huge impact Toni makes to his thinking.

Yes, Nadal is no fool but I can see a split from Toni being a catastrophe for him. I rather suspect Toni is the brains behind the whole package and that without him to guide and instruct him there will be trouble. We've seen this kind of thing before where a new coach comes in to move a player in a new direction. Connors on Roddick comes to mind - a disaster.
A mature player is a package, and you undo one bit to add something at your peril. I suspect that with Rafa this is even more the case than normal.

Just my opinion, he'll do whatever he wants.

Respect to the guy for considering it. Shows how much out of his comfort zone he's willing to go in order to change things around.

barrystar wrote: Jose Higueras would be an intriguing choice given that he worked with Federer during 2008.

He might be a very good choice. Are there any other spanish-speaking top coaches these days?

Leff wrote:

barrystar wrote: Jose Higueras would be an intriguing choice given that he worked with Federer during 2008.

He might be a very good choice. Are there any other spanish-speaking top coaches these days?

Yes, there's Alex Corretja, I think he's free at the moment.

Jeremy_Kyle wrote: Yes, there's Alex Corretja, I think he's free at the moment.

Naa, He doesn't need the likes of Corretja, Costa and Bruguera. He has not problem winning at RG. Maybe if Moya is available, not the clay-only experts.

I suppose that was tongue-in-cheek, anyway.

Leff wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote: Yes, there's Alex Corretja, I think he's free at the moment.

Naa, He doesn't need the likes of Corretja, Costa and Bruguera. He has not problem winning at RG. Maybe if Moya is available, not the clay-only experts.

I suppose that was tongue-in-cheek, anyway.

yes

I don't believe it's a good idea to change his coach after 20 years, for Nadal. Said that, why on earth it has to be Spanish? The guy might not be Oxford educated but can still speak English, if I remember well......

He's got Carlos Costa in his team anyway who is kind of like Corretja/Costa/Bruguera. Agree he wouldnt really respect a lesser and pure claycourter as his head coach...he needs a coach who understands the full game across all surfaces and has succeeded at slam level (playing or coaching) on other surfaces than clay - Nadal needs no clay based help for sure!

As we're playing fantasy coach, Agassi would be a great choice - someone who he would respect, has won on all surfaces and importantly came back strongly later in his career by meeting new challenges and subtley changing his game (to reduce the impact on his wrist).

I wonder if Nadal were to call Agassi and asked him to be coach if it would tempt Andre into coaching? After all, who wouldnt want the opportunity of coaching Nadal?

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

Leff wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote: Yes, there's Alex Corretja, I think he's free at the moment.

Naa, He doesn't need the likes of Corretja, Costa and Bruguera. He has not problem winning at RG. Maybe if Moya is available, not the clay-only experts.

I suppose that was tongue-in-cheek, anyway.

yes

I don't believe it's a good idea to change his coach after 20 years, for Nadal. Said that, why on earth it has to be Spanish? The guy might not be Oxford educated but can still speak English, if I remember well......

From what we know of Nadal's English at press conferences it might be difficult to work with an English-speaking coach, or anyone who does not speak spanish - coaching is a pretty precised nuanced business and the language gap would introduce a difficulty (he says, thinking of the English football team, none of whom speak English let alone whatever Fabio Capello speaks to them)

I don't think an English speaking would be any sort of hinderance, language wise.

Nadal speaks English pretty fluently and 2nd language acquirers nearly always have a better understanding of the target language than their ability to converse in it.

Besides, they would be discussing tennis. I'm sure Rafa is familiar with even the most nuanced aspects of tennis speak, even in English.

Rafa seems to be asserting himself a little bit like a teenager at the moment with his angry outbursts at ITF and the USTA, plus this little blow for independence from being treated like a child by Toni.

I don't suppose it means they will split at all, it's just that Rafa is flexing his muscles as most of us do in our teen years and he has been so obedient and easily guided by Toni until now. I think he is just showing Toni that he is no longer 'the Kid' and is actually 'the Man' in the house.

If they do separate as coach and player, or Toni 'moves upstairs', it may well be beneficial for Rafa. It's obviously a loving but claustrophobic relationship and one that was mapped out for Rafa when he was three. On the off chance that it's not the best news for his tennis (which I doubt, he is the finished product now) it almost certainly will be for him as a man and for his adult relationships.

Nadal and Toni were a winning combination. Toni was responsible for putting Nadal where he is today. I do not think the answer to beating Djokovic is to fire Toni. Its not Toni's fault he cannot beat Djokovic!

Perhaps Toni thinks Nadal is getting too distracted with life outside tennis? Maybe the fact that they don't see eye to one on issues is the cause? I always thought Federer did much better without a full time coach. In Nadal's case I don't think so. Whoever replaces him will have their work cut out for them. Nadal has reached the top of sport. What can another coach teach him to do that he has not done or achieved already? I think Nadal perhaps is looking to lay the blame of these losses everywhere else but with himself. In the final he lead by 2-0 at the start of the first 3 sets and squandered break points. The only reason he won the 3rd was Djoko's lack of 1st serve and errors. Parting company with Toni is most likely to end badly.

On the other hand this might just be a media hyped story fuelled by Nadal's camp as done in the past. Any publicity is good publicity especially now as the focus is one Djokovic.

lydian wrote:

As we're playing fantasy coach, Agassi would be a great choice - someone who he would respect, has won on all surfaces and importantly came back strongly later in his career by meeting new challenges and subtley changing his game (to reduce the impact on his wrist).

I wonder if Nadal were to call Agassi and asked him to be coach if it would tempt Andre into coaching? After all, who wouldnt want the opportunity of coaching Nadal?

Why should Agassi, a man with tens of millions in his bank account and very busy running his own charity, accept to coach Nadal, hiring in this way his own boss? Very bizarre, I just can't get it sorry.

Ivan Lendl? I think currently he is free, also.

No coach will teach Nadal to take the ball earlier and keep the UEs down.

Are there Spanish players with non-Spanish speaking coaches?

Lendl is too intense. It's like moving from uncle Toni to Major Toni. I saw Lendl a few months ago in a special exhibition event. He hasn't been playing tennis for over 15 years, and still looks the same... no smile.

I reckon whichever coach Nadal gets, he/she'll flatten his shots, and THAT will be something very interesting to see.

In other words, tame the beast.

noleisthebest wrote:I reckon whichever coach Nadal gets, he/she'll flatten his shots, and THAT will be something very interesting to see.

That would be crazy! Only a Djokovic fan would suggest weakening Nadals greatest strength.

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

lydian wrote:

As we're playing fantasy coach, Agassi would be a great choice - someone who he would respect, has won on all surfaces and importantly came back strongly later in his career by meeting new challenges and subtley changing his game (to reduce the impact on his wrist).

I wonder if Nadal were to call Agassi and asked him to be coach if it would tempt Andre into coaching? After all, who wouldnt want the opportunity of coaching Nadal?

Why should Agassi, a man with tens of millions in his bank account and very busy running his own charity, accept to coach Nadal, hiring in this way his own boss? Very bizarre, I just can't get it sorry.

Hellooooo....I said "playing fantasy coach"...I think the clue was in that word somehow...geez.

noleisthebest wrote:I reckon whichever coach Nadal gets, he/she'll flatten his shots, and THAT will be something very interesting to see.

What on earth are you talking about?

Do you think it's really possible for a guy that's been playing a certain way ALL of his life to then suddenly start playing in a completely different manner?

'Flattening his shots' essentially requires deconstructing his entire swing to have any real effect. It's like suggesting Soderling should suddenly start hitting heavy topspin FH's. You would be trying to make a completely different player out of Nadal. Also, it's not as if a player just flattens his strokes and hey presto he now has a winning formula. Playing with flat strokes requires a different approach to tennis, ie. the rest of the game is also affected. It means he would have to reconstruct how he plays the rallies and points. At this late stage this is never going to happen.

The heavy lefty topspin has been Nadal's strongest weapon; it's given him the edge against the majority of the tour, allowing him to target relatively weaker BH's, giving him a huge safety margin, the high bounce also pushing his opponents back off the baseline even when he gives them short balls. Heck, it's the only reason why he's beaten Fed so many times. If Nadal had played with his right hand, Fed woulda had him for breakfast.

The adjustments that rafa can make have to be within the context of his natural game. Sure, he can try and play more aggressively and some of shots are naturally flatter than others like the dtl FH, which he can try to utilise more consistently.

Well whoever coaches will have to come up with a plan B for Novak so far Plan A has cost him 6 finals on the trot, so I don't think Lydian's comments are out of place. Players do evolve over time and with changing technology and conditions. He will have to use the flat forehand up the line more often, not saying make it his principal shot but add it more to the mix as well as adding the slice backhand more to the mix as well. Be a bit more aggressive and bit more varied, it is a matter of degrees. I don't think Lydian is assuming that Nadal will all of a sudden turn into Agassi or Nalbandian. But could use the current shots in his arsenal a little more for things that work against Djoko and use other shots a little less. I don't think anyone is saying he cans the heavy spinning forehand maybe uses it at a lower percentage in his mix of shots. Maybe he won't be able to adjust, I personally think that he won't be able to pull it off and get back to even in the rivalry.

Socal,

I agree with your post which is basically saying what I said - that any adjustments Nadal makes would have to be within the context of his natural game, hence some minor but important tweaks.

My post was referring to the suggestion by NITB that Rafa's new coach would need to flatten out his strokes. Of course, she may have meant that he would need to flatten out some of his shots slightly in some crucial points during rallies, which he can do with the dtl FH or even the cc BH, and that's something I agree with because it means tweaking his game within it's natural context.

However, the idea that he can adopt flat strokes wholesale is ridiculous.

Apologies NITB if you actually meant the former.

Good post emancipator, it is more tactical changes that I am talking about and not a wholesale overhaul of the game. Changing the composition of shots in his mix. I don't see that he has any choice really. Only a crazy guy keeps trying the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result.

I honestly and thoroughly believe Nadal made a BIG mistake the when he hired Uncle Tony. Now it is too late to sack him, far too late imvvho.

It's the other way. Uncle Toni hired Nadal.

polished_man wrote:I honestly and thoroughly believe Nadal made a BIG mistake the when he hired Uncle Tony. Now it is too late to sack him, far too late imvvho.

Yeah.. that stupid four year old Nadal - what was he thinking of?

Leff wrote:It's the other way. Uncle Toni hired Nadal.

What? This is not possible, Tony doesn't even get paid for his service. Mean Nadal.

socal1976 wrote:Well whoever coaches will have to come up with a plan B for Novak so far Plan A has cost him 6 finals on the trot, so I don't think Lydian's comments are out of place. Players do evolve over time and with changing technology and conditions. He will have to use the flat forehand up the line more often, not saying make it his principal shot but add it more to the mix as well as adding the slice backhand more to the mix as well. Be a bit more aggressive and bit more varied, it is a matter of degrees. I don't think Lydian is assuming that Nadal will all of a sudden turn into Agassi or Nalbandian. But could use the current shots in his arsenal a little more for things that work against Djoko and use other shots a little less. I don't think anyone is saying he cans the heavy spinning forehand maybe uses it at a lower percentage in his mix of shots. Maybe he won't be able to adjust, I personally think that he won't be able to pull it off and get back to even in the rivalry.

Sorry I just can't agree. Nadal doesn't need to change anything in his game to beat Djokovic. He just needs to play well. Nadals game despite his recent losses matches up well with Djokovics. Nadals quirky spins (topspin and slice), consistant and varied serve (usually!), ability to make Djokovic move forward and back (rather than side to side which he loves) are the way to beat him. Djokovic loves nothing better than consistant flat hitting from the baseline. You only have to look at his record against Davydenko (5-2) and Nalbandian (4-1) to see this.

The rivaly isn't even its 16-13 in Nadal favour. Despite Djokovics excellent year I'm far from convinced that it will change because of the way their games match up. We shall see...

Uncle Toni can become the Chairman of the Nadal Board and resign from the post of CEO of Nadal.

Rafa made a statement after being beaten by Djokovic(my paraphrase)... "This form is not forever. I have not solved the problem yet."

Brad Gilbert, or Cahill, McEnroe (Patrick or John), perhaps?