England IC

Brian Smith tells us what we all know, that England haven't got this right:

England 12

Particularly interesting is this:

"You want someone who's got good distribution, ideally a kicker but if you look globally now at the shape and size of 12s they've also got to have some bump.

"You want another organiser but also a ball carrier and he also has to be a big defensive player".

Now that for me certainly isn't Anthony Allen (simply too small). Twelvetrees is probably nearest to being this player (and this explains why England gave him so much time at 12 for the Saxons). It's also the player Farrell could develop into.

No easy answers in this tournament though.

The only players who fit that description are 36 & Barritt. Farrell doesn't have enough 'bump' or running game to fulfill that role for me. I see a great club career ahead of him, but he's too much between a 10 and a 12 to make it as a top international. I'd say he's more of a controlling 10 at the moment, he wasn't convincing as a 12 for the U20s this year.

I honestly think Allen is your best 12. You have a big running outside centre in Tuilangi, you really don't need another big running 12. Allen's size shouldn't stop him from getting his chance for England.

The whole point is that 36 isn't just a big running 12. Yes, he can be pretty physical and a threat with ball in hand, but more distinct is that he's got superior distribution and kicking skills than Allen. Allen organises a defence better (at present) and runs more incisive lines (skills I've always felt stand out more when he's played 13), but I don't think his abilities are sufficient enough in the other areas for him to become a top international at IC. He'd do a reasonable job, but we need to aim higher, and that's where England seem to be heading with their nurturing of 36 through the system.

Going forward the player with those attributes is 36 no question. Hes the only player with size and all round game to be the kicking 12 England have missed since Flutey lost his way. This season hes getting some early seaosn gametime again, and will probably get a lot more with Tuilagi now a firm fixture in the England side. Its time for him to step up and prove hes good enough.
Right now we have a choice between Tindall and Hape..Tindall being the better kicker, Hape being the better runner and distributor. Hapes looked better so far in the WC, but Tindalls experience will probably keep him in the first choice side especially if Wilko gets swapped for Flood.

We could see Farrell and Barritt in the centres for Saracens up against Leicester's Allen and Twelvetrees this weekend.

It will be interesting to see how this battle goes.

Alcoombe I would reserve your judgement on Farrell. He is only 20.

Twelvetrees is an old man in comparison at the ripe old age of 22. Will be 23 soon.

Not as old as the two ancient figures of Brad Barritt and Anthony Allen both who are 25.

Farrell seems to be a big game player, thats a major plus for him. Same a s Tuilagui he doesnt look phased by stepping up even with very little expereince.
How physical would you say he is though? Its pretty clear that England want the "bump" at 12 and 13. Do you think his future will be more as a 10 than a 12?
Youngs, Farrell, 36, Tuillagi for the next world cup? Who knows!

It is easy to forget how young guys like Allen (Id put Varndell in that bracket too) are, it does seem hes been playinmg at the top forever. Both seems pretty far down the England pecking order currently though if not comepltly off the radar.

Personally I’d love to see Barritt and Manu running at teams…as for a kicking 12 don’t we kick away enough ball already?

Pete remember that Flood is only 25 as well he could easily still be around by the next RWC. I'm still massively underwhelmed by Farrell at 10 and think he makes a better 12, he has more time on the ball and he seems to be a little more creative given that opportunity. At 10 he rarely passes the ball and instead just relies on his boot. That won't work on the international stage, the big teams have back threes that will decimate defences given opportunities to run the ball back.

Peter seabiscuit if Saracens play Farrell at centre on the weekend we'll see.

In the Worcester game when Farrell came on in the 2nd half he moved to centre. Saracens scored two tries with Hodgson at FH, Barritt and Farrell in the centres.

Farrell is 6,2 and weighs 15 stone 2lb 96kg, Barritt is 6,1 and weighs the same.

Allen is 5,11 and weighs 14 stone 4lb. 91kg

Twelvetrees is 6,3 and weighs 15 stone 10lb.100kg

There are two differing weights for Manu Tuilagi. The Leicester page says he is 17 stone 4lb! 110kg. The RFU page 16 stone 7lb 105kg.

He is 6,1.

See I've met Manu and I still can't believe he is 6'1, I'm 6' almost on the dot and I'm sure he was slightly shorter than me. He is a unit though and his brother Alesana is about the size of two people, really quite intimidating even though they are nice guys.

Farrell is good in defence but seems to lack agression with ball in hand, looking forward to seeing how he does up against Allen at the weekend.

Maybe Manu just looks taller because he is bigger?

Wow the RFU seem to think Twelvetrees is even heavier. 16 stone 3lb.


Shontayne Hape is 16 stone. 6,1 in height.

Riki Flutey is only 14 stone 4lb like Allen. Only 5,10 too.

Sam you are probably right about Farrell but he can learn from Hodgson.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Farrell is good in defence but seems to lack agression with ball in hand, looking forward to seeing how he does up against Allen at the weekend.

Which is what I meant by physicality, its not just how many pies youve eaten or Andy Goode wouldve been the greatest crash ball player in historty. Its about the type of game you play. I see Farrell as being more like Flood who played most of his early rugby at 12 but eventually became a very good 10 while meaner more agressive players took over at center.

beshocked wrote:
Sam you are probably right about Farrell but he can learn from Hodgson.

How much do you think is down to instructions though, do all Saracens 10's tend to take the kick or pass option ahead of the run? Is it a qauestion of him playing to style or genuinly him suddenly forgetting part of his game when hes at 10?

Farrell is one for the future, at the moment he is too limited in style of play. We may as well put Flood at 12 to see what it'd be like (shocking).

England are looking for two big centres who can take the ball up but also the 12 needs to be an all rounder. What amazes me is that out of all 12 clubs our only genuine prospect for this is Twelvetrees, that's a lot of expectation on one player!

Im sorry but WHY does the IC have to be like that?

Just to follow the 3n format??

If you have a smaller 12 in the form of Allen, who can really play, distribute etc, and a powerhouse like Tuilagi / Tindall outside him...whats the problem...as long as the 12 can tackle anything thrown at him.

And lets not mistake when i say defence. You dont have to do these Brian Lima style head rollers to be strong defensively....just make sure you put your man down. Allen can do that.

Also whilst flood isnt the most physical, he is a fair sized lad...and if johnny is at 10 then we have a powerhouse defender there...

How much do you think is down to instructions though, do all Saracens 10's tend to take the kick or pass option ahead of the run?

He look flustered and reverted to a kicking game during his solitary game at 10 in the JWC. When moved to 12 he looked more composed and happier to play the England passing game. The Ford/Farrell combo was pretty good and it's a positive to their development to see both getting good game time so far this season.

I agree with Geordie, NZ have the best backline going and at 12 they have a bulldozer in Nonu and at 13 Smith, who is slightly taller but otherwise the same sort of size as Allen. Smith is by no means a big man but it's all about the great rugby brain and the commitment he undoubtedly has. Allen has similar attributes but for some reason is over looked. Generally you need one crash option in the centres but in 2007 we had Catt and Tait and still managed without, so power with ball in hand isn't the be all and end all.

The thing will Allen is he hardly ever passes - certainly stepping inside and running hard seems to be his preferred option. While Tequila Tone was awesome for us last year, I do not see him as international quality.

I have a gut feel that both Tigers and England view Manu as a 12. He runs, he passes, he offloads, he tackles. Missing is kicking but if 9 or 10 aren't able to kick - then the ball probably needs to be moved a bit wider.

I would like to see a backline for tigers post WC of:

youngs, flood, alessana, manu, 36, Agulla (love Scotty Hamilton - but Agulla offers more threat), Murphy/Tait.

Replacing tigers back 3 with Foden, Ashton and a young flyer (Sharples, short, Wade, Smith?) and we have the makings of an England backline that could play together till 2015 WC.

All we need to find next is a well balanced back row.

Allen is more of a running IC than a distributor. I remember seeing stats from the end of last season that he passed the ball around half as much as the league's other leading ICs.

With the talent that we have in our back three we need an IC that can bring those players into play more. When I watch 36 play he produces the sort of fizzing passes from IC that Allen just isn't capable of or isn't inclined to attempt.

Kicking ability is a bonus and not essential, but a physical running threat and high distribution skills is the ideal and a requisite to dine at the top table.

I'd like to see Allen given a go in the England squad, but I don't think his running game is powerful enough for senior international rugby.

I would like to see Tait on the wing and Geordan at full back LT. Agree that Scotty appears to be aging and isn't quite the threat he was a couple of years ago, though he certainly looks more threatening when on the wing as oppposed to full back. Agulla offers a truely massive hand off for someone his size but his tackling isn't always the best and he doesn't score that many tries.

Youngs, Flood, Alesana, Manu, Twelvetrees, Tait, Geordan. Would be an interesting experiment but Allen would be hard done by and I'm not sure that Manu is disciplined enough to play 12 yet.

Hopefully with Charlie Hodgson at Saracens, Farrell will get more time to play at inside centre. I’d definitely like to see more of his running game, but to my mind he has England player written all over him. I’ve liked the look of Barritt for a couple of years, would like to see him get a shot. Wouldn't be surprised to see a backline of:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Charlie Sharples
12. Owen Farrell
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

at some point in the few years after the world cup.

Sam, can't agree with your assesment of Farrell at 12 during the JWC, having been looking forward to how he would perform, I was seriously underwhelmed. There were more than a few games where the distinctly average Mills looked better there.

Re your comparison of Allen to Smith, that is exactly why I think Allen would be better off at OC. Your OC can be physical or more elusive, but the best teams have a physical element at IC as it holds the defence better and gives the FH more time, options and support. As Australia proved with Giteau, the more elusive running IC or 2nd FH without the physical threat can produce some beautiful moments, but it also often breaks down and if the defence get a grip on the 10-12 axis, with no physical route to solidify things, the rest of the backline gets nullified.

Certainly the big 12 option does hold the defence but if you've got a talented winger or quick footed IC a monster at 13 can cause more headaches. If the opposition 13 is held wide and the 12 can be convinced to drift that way the your 10 should be able to find space in the channels around his opposite number to give a quick footed 12 or a winger can be slotted through the gap. See the Allen try vs Bath at the Rec for a demonstration.

Depends on how wide you want to play, the big 13 lends itself to a more subtle narrower game which benefits teams with a powerful front five. A crash 12 tends to promote wider play which suits teams with a very dynamic backrow and explosive back three options.

My arguement for Allen wasnt for Allen himself but an example of why i disagree with the NEED to have a 6'4 monster at 12 like Smith seems to suggest.

As long as ONE of the centres has some crash ball power then it doesnt matter which one.

If the 12 is the playmaker and happens to be a big fella (and Twelvetrees could certainly be that person) then obviously so much the better.

The centre combinations I'd like to see given priority post WC would be Twelvetrees & Tuilagi, and Barritt & Waldouck (if he can manage to stay fit, he's the sort of classy footballer like Conrad Smith), with JTH, Lowe & Trinder being seriously looked at in the Saxons.

I hope the likes of Casson, May & JJ can get some decent game time at their clubs and develop more this season as well.

Cumbrian wrote:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Charlie Sharples
12. Owen Farrell
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

at some point in the few years after the world cup.

Great looking backline, and definitely one I'd like to see in the future. Other centre options include Lowe, Trinder and Waldouck. Hopefully it will be a position that we have a lot of depth at in a few years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Certainly the big 12 option does hold the defence but if you've got a talented winger or quick footed IC a monster at 13 can cause more headaches. If the opposition 13 is held wide and the 12 can be convinced to drift that way the your 10 should be able to find space in the channels around his opposite number to give a quick footed 12 or a winger can be slotted through the gap. See the Allen try vs Bath at the Rec for a demonstration.

I don't see that being as reliable or consistent a tactic that an entire gameplan can be based around against top international teams though. It's highly dependent on your FH being at the top of his game (ours have been quite up & down), and against high quality backrows like the 3Ns possess the FH will find a lot less space around that channel.

True Alcoombe but you don't keep it tight every time you use the crash 13 and narrow ball to draw in the opposition defence and retain ball. You either draw a penalty out of frustration or draw in the opposition centres and look to exploit a miss match or an over lap. It requires the ten to have good hands and be patient enough to see the game unfold but it requires less theatrics than you think, the 13 is used on a centre crash and runs the line most the time whilst the ten mainly looks to off the shoulder moves and then use the 13 as a decoy. Quite simple really. More so that the big miss passes that are used by Carter when bypassing the crash 12, they have a much higher error rate.

And some time after 2025 the backline will be soemthing like:

09. Biliofi Manakatu
10. Jerome Tipiloki
11. Tane Whizzorevi
12. Bangalowi Inyoufaceaki
13. Serevi Speartackolomi
14. Titus Mantovarni
15. John Smith

Is JTH an option at 12 for the future? If he develops properly in the position, there's something about him at 12 and Tuilangi at 13 that is a little scary..

RubyGuby wrote:And some time after 2025 the backline will be soemthing like:

09. Biliofi Manakatu
10. Jerome Tipiloki
11. Tane Whizzorevi
12. Bangalowi Inyoufaceaki
13. Serevi Speartackolomi
14. Titus Mantovarni
15. John Smith

RubyGuby wrote:And some time after 2025 the backline will be soemthing like:

09. Biliofi Manakatu
10. Jerome Tipiloki Johnny Wilkinson
11. Tane Whizzorevi
12. Bangalowi Inyoufaceaki
13. Serevi Speartackolomi
14. Titus Mantovarni
15. John Smith

Beautiful traditional english names, beautiful, and can you EVER see an England team without a Wilkinson?

On a more serious note, twelvetrees looks like the long-term option there. Hes like a young gavin henson (no offence).

There along with Tuilagi, you have everything you need in a centre partnership, potentially.

I just don't think it's as convincing or versatile a format against the better organised defences we see these days. It certainly hasn't been a format successfully employed on the international stage for a number of years.

Re miss passes on a crash 12, that is why I've said that the IC has to be more than a crash centre but a distributor as well, it gives so many more options, he can crash, he can be missed, his handling can be used for more complex short and inside midfield moves, or he can spin the ball out wide himself. The more indecision you can create in the defence early on, the more success you will have.

It certainly hasn't been a format successfully employed on the international stage for a number of years.

One could argue that it worked pretty well for Ireland against Australia. It does seem the current vogue to have a crashy option at 12 and a more traditional rapier style 13 currently but 4 years ago it was the thing to have a second playmaker at 12 and a bigger 13. I think both can certainly work on the international stage and I think South Africa may find another gear in attack now that Francois Steyn is there to take some of the play making pressure off of Morne and with Pat Lambie at full back that is suddenly a more creative and dangerous backline.

Certainly a crash option should be able to show some handling and football skills, no point having a lump that only takes the ball into contact as it's to easy to read.

It was popular for a few countries, but the more succesful teams 4 years ago were NZ (highest win rate, multiple 3N), SA (WC) & France (2 6N in a row), whose ICs all carried a physical threat as well as good distribution.

Certainly agree that SA looked more dynamic in attack against Fiji with F.Steyn's dual physical & play making abilities. It's exactly the sort of role I hope 36 will fulfill for us in the coming years.

Comfort wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:And some time after 2025 the backline will be soemthing like:

09. Biliofi Manakatu
10. Jerome Tipiloki Johnny Wilkinson
11. Tane Whizzorevi
12. Bangalowi Inyoufaceaki
13. Serevi Speartackolomi
14. Titus Mantovarni
15. John Smith

Beautiful traditional english names, beautiful, and can you EVER see an England team without a Wilkinson?

Much like that musical Welsh name Toby Faletau, aye?

It's exactly the sort of role I hope 36 will fulfill for us in the coming years

I'm rather hoping Twelvetrees and Farrell will be fighting it out for that role though I wouldn't rule out either Barritt or Allen even though they aren't the full rounded articles they were still the two best EQ ICs in the league last year.

Yes, I certainly feel Barritt could find a role in an England shirt, he's excellent in the role Saracens ask him to play (similar to how England seem to want Hape & Tindall to play, but Barritt is better at it), but, as he showed in his Super Rugby years, I also feel he's got a lot more to offer and a more rounded game than the Saracens gameplan allows him to put on show.

I'm hoping we see more creation from Barritt now he's paired with Hodgson, it's hard to showcase your talents when all you do is take two crash balls a game and spend the rest of the time defending or chasing high balls. With a potential move out to OC with Farrell at 12 he may be part of a more flamboyant backrow where he can show off his footballing skills and his pace.

Who was it who recently criticised Tindall...non creative, poor passing etc.

I agreed with him.

Players coming through..

12's
Turner Hall - He's stalled a little ,will he make it or not?
Twelvetrees - Cockerill has used him scarcely..but has the skills. Not ready for int's just after the WC
Allen - Is his distribution good enough...and is his size an issue. Should he be a 13?
Barritt
Hape - Has his critics

13's
Tindall - Needs to be retired after this WC
Tuilagi - Looks the future...could he play the nonu role at 12?
Lowe - Always appears off the radar despite some class performances.
Waldouck - Early promise has been stalled by injury
Trinder - havent see a huge amount - hows he doing?

Others
Banahan - Winger , centre.....or just not international class?

Has Flutey had his chances? Will he be capped post WC in the following 6N?

JTH of quins - certainly had a stuttering last season following injury, I had put it down to a lack of confidence. But at the start of this season he is back, hitting defences and taking on the line - if he keeps form he could be back in the saxons at least. JTH and 36 partnership.
Geordie - Manus got a good offload, could be an option at 12. Maybe a development over time possitional change.
Waldouck - havent heard a peep from him - when is he back from injury?
There is Jon Clarke at Saints - he's had a lot of supporters for a while too.
On a personal note - would love Ollie Smith of Quins to gain some form after bad injury. Get him back to his Tigers days and he could be a possibility.

Is Olly Barclay ever going to get another cap? Or has that ship sailed.

I'm hoping that ship has sailed PropDavid as he really isn't that good. Defence is poor, attacking capabilities vanish in the big games and his kicking can be extremely sporadic. Good club option but not international standard.

I'm hoping we see Manu, Flutey, Barritt and Twelvetrees in the EPS for the 6N with Trinder, Allen, Turner-Hall and Lowe coming into the Saxons squad. Billy has been playing 13 for Tigers and that could work.

Prop

I would call it a day on Flutey, Tindall and Hape.

Whlst I dont advocate wholesale changes post wc...i do think we need to sort out the centre partnership.

Tuilagi looks established at 13, and could possibly move in one in the future.

If Turner hall is looking back to his barnstorming best then why not try that combo?
I dont think Barclay will get another chance to be honest.

Im a big fan of George Lowe at 13

I agree - Lowe is a real talent. Partner him with a big bosh player like JTH (or better) a Tuilagi at 12 and they will make stuff happen.

Sam - I'm glad you agree, I'm not a Barclay fan either (just hadnt heard anything about him for a while).

Have we also missed a trick with Owen Farrell - is he a better 12 than 10?

Barclay is currently injured, another nasty knee injury, so he won't be back playing for another month or so (I think, I'm not bang up to date with the Bath injury news).

Farrell is only 19 there's more than enough time for him to development into a 10/12 depending on where suits him best. At the minute it's just good he's getting so much first team and big game exposure.

If England are going to adopt a NZ style centre partnership then Lowe, Twelvetrees or Trinder will be good options at OC with Manu, Barritt, and JTH all bringing plenty of grunt and offloading skills to the IC channel.

Sam has Manu had any exposure to 12? or always been a 13.

Played a mixture of wing, IC and OC during his academy days at Tigers. Played at 12 vs SA when Tigers famously won, he didn't play particularly well in that game acting more as an additional flanker than an orthodox centre. I have no particular concerns about him switching positions he is an intelligent player and swaps around with Allen for Tigers anyway. Only problem is playing at 12 will negate some of his ability to go round his opposite number and concentrate his efforts on a route one approach.

Time for a step change, after the WC pension off any back aged 28 or over, under the premise of building for the 2015 WC, start the 2012 6N with a new centre combination.

Manu at 13,

12 let it be known that the position is up for grabs cometh the hour cometh the man