England IC

First topic message reminder :

Brian Smith tells us what we all know, that England haven't got this right:

England 12

Particularly interesting is this:

"You want someone who's got good distribution, ideally a kicker but if you look globally now at the shape and size of 12s they've also got to have some bump.

"You want another organiser but also a ball carrier and he also has to be a big defensive player".

Now that for me certainly isn't Anthony Allen (simply too small). Twelvetrees is probably nearest to being this player (and this explains why England gave him so much time at 12 for the Saxons). It's also the player Farrell could develop into.

No easy answers in this tournament though.

It depends upon how speculative you want to be really.

I’d tentatively include Farrell as an inside centre, but not be shocked if he stays at Stand off and tries to make it in that that position.


Inside Centre:

Ben Williams (Bath): He’s a big and powerful player that can cut a good line, he’s starting a lot of games at tge moment, it’ll be interesting to see what happens when Barkley is fit again though.

There’s a few more like Luther Burrell (Sale) and our lad James Fitzpatrick, but I struggle to see them ever even pulling on a Saxons jersey tbH


Outside centre:

Jonny May, has looked good in the games I’ve seen, but will wait and see how he goes. He is a very quick player.

Elliot Daly, started to come into the Wasps team last season, but will have to wait his turn this year (He is only 18 after all!). Another really quick player who likes to beat his man on the outside arc that OC used to run.

Dan Hipkiss, seems to be recovering his form and is still only 29, could be a contender for a couple of years if he keeps himself right.

Could also keep ane eye on Jon Joseph (London Irish), Luke Eves (Newcastle) and Ollie Smith (Harelquins) without getting your hopes up too much.

To be honest, currently there are few that other nations will look upon with envy. There are some promising youngsters, but they are raw and a long way off.

Two potential combos id like to see:

12 Tuilagi 13 Lowe
12 Turner Hall 13 Tuilagi

Ps If Turner hall is back to showing his promise...i havent seen a huge amount of him this season to be fair.

12 Tuilagi 13 Lowe

I believe in five years time, that combo will come into play think of young aspirations and all round potential, Tuilagi and Lowe could be our next big things at centre. I would of said Waldouck, but it's a massive shame he has been blighted by injuries.

Tuilagi and Lowe potentially could be a very good partnership in the future.

Good thinking GeordieFalcon.

I'm not convinced by the idea of Tuilagi at IC, I don't think that would give the backline enough creativity and it would put too much pressure on the FH to make things happen (something that I think partly accounts for Flood's inconsistent performances, not every FH can be as good as DC).

The IC should certainly be physical, but he also needs a bit of vision and a footballing brain. Tuilagi has many attributes, but I don't see him becoming that sort of player. OC makes the most of all his talents.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Two potential combos id like to see:

12 Tuilagi 13 Lowe
12 Turner Hall 13 Tuilagi

Agreed for the second combo, really would love to see that. Also haven't seen JTH in a while though.

Rory love your work but I thought you were dead? Now you're back any chance of another album and tour?

JTH had some very fine games last season but suffered from some iffy form at times. Seem to remember him being dumped on his backside a couple of times whilst failing to run over Twelvetrees at WR. Played an important role in Quins cup triumph though.

Sam and Rory - JTH, even in the amlin final really didnt play with confidence. I saw him pulling out of contact and choosing to pass rather than take it up himself. (I know that yappysnap doesnt agree with me on this)

The off season seems to have worked some magic and he appears to be back to the player he was when partnered with Gonzo Tiesi. The form that originally got him into the Saxons.

The first 3 games of the season he is taking the ball up to the line, commiting defenders and getting the offload for Lowe, or Monye coming in at an angle. If he can keep it up I am sure he will be noticed.

Good to see another forum member with great taste Sorry though, currently doing a big tour in heaven.

I don't get to see too many premiership games unfortunately so I don't see too much of non-international english players, but when I had seen JTH I was impressed! Don't hear much of him when you guys talk about your potential centres though.

Sam,

Do you think Twelvetrees will make the grade? And is this season too soon, or could we see a partnership of

12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi

Barkley was a great option in RWC 2007 and his performance against USA at 10 was one of the best england fly half performances of the past 4/5 years. He did however chose to skip an england elite tour to concentrate on getting fit and resting for club rugby whilst stating his interest in playing for England again then double fractured his leg in pre season i think...despite his current leg fracture in the same place by turning away from an england squad he has burnt his chances with Johnno of ever playing for england again.

Billy twelvetrees reminds me so much of will greenwood but with a better boot...now thats a compliment ...however at the moment he is destined to be the new james hook...shifted around the backline to suit his teams needs without ever mastering one position week in and week out. England need twelvetrees to leave the tigers for regular rugby at 12, or for allen to take a back seat.

It does worry me the lack of options we have at centre in England.....since 2003 we have had probably around 30 different centre combo's includin noon, gearghty, erlinlie, hipkiss, tait, Farrel snr, flood, hape, allen banahan.....most of which have been without attacking flair, clueless and changed again for the next game....then you look at the best teams which have quality centres coming out there ears...NZ= smith, SBW, nonu, kahui, freuan. SA= steyn, fourie, de villers. Oz = (left giteau at home nuff said !!) even the home nations have quality centres..

why after 8 years do england still have a centre problem !!!!

You do know that Greenwood played fly half and full back, then outside centre before being moved to 12?

A couple of years ago the moved capped centre partnership since 2003 was Noon and Tindall. Probably still is since we haven't settled

propdavid_london wrote:Sam and Rory - JTH, even in the amlin final really didnt play with confidence. I saw him pulling out of contact and choosing to pass rather than take it up himself. (I know that yappysnap doesnt agree with me on this)

The off season seems to have worked some magic and he appears to be back to the player he was when partnered with Gonzo Tiesi. The form that originally got him into the Saxons.

The first 3 games of the season he is taking the ball up to the line, commiting defenders and getting the offload for Lowe, or Monye coming in at an angle. If he can keep it up I am sure he will be noticed.

Prop David,

I'd say JTH had a better season 10/11 then 9/10 he was looking more on form and wasa big part of us winning the Amlin, I don't remember him looking work shy but he wasn't thinking enough at times. This seems to have changed though now and he's really putting in the performances along with the rest of the team. I'm not sure if he'll ever make it with England but i'd love to see him and Lowe both play for the Saxons.

Lowe for me is the one to watch, he has to be in or around the national set up soon, he has all the skills we're looking for at 13, infact it's easiest to say think of all the good things about Tait that had people excited, now put them in toa guy that loves tackling and is rock solid ind efence and that's Lowe. The complete centre.

Any of:
12. JTH 13. Lowe
12.36 13. Lowe
12. JTH 13. 36
would be perfect in the Saxons.

I'd say Lowe hits above his weight (both attack and defence). Turner-Hall was much better last season than the one before (injured for a lot of it wasn't he?). Lowe and Turner-Hall seem to work very well together, which is the main thing for Quins

Hammer of Thunor

I didn't actually know that greenwood played all over the place..fair play....i just worry that without settling in one position you risk being a utility eg. earls, hook, healey, toeva, you never master one position to the detriment of the player but are always useful for a manager as a bench warmer...iMO poor old hook could be one of the worlds best fly halfs by now, i just hope twelvetrees gets the chance to develop in one position. Flood managed to avoid being swapped and settle hope 36 can do the same.

I think it depends on how long you're moved about. I think Greenwood was settled at 12 by the time he went pro-/top level. Not really a fair example I suppose

The trouble with Tuilagi or JTH at centre is no kicking game and not really any distributing game either, two of the characteristics Smith mentions.

For me Twelvetrees still has to leave Tigers next summer and go somewhere he'll be first choice 12 (which is most of the AP clubs). As soon as he's established at 12 for a club side he'll be called up by the senior England side.

13 can be a bit smaller, so I think Trinder and. if he continues playing well, Lowe have a chance. But Tuilagi looks nailed on to be a regular there. If not then Daly, assuming he recovers from his shoulder injury (nerve damage sounds quite worrying), is another fantastic option.

I think, post-WC, OC is sorted. IC still needs Twelvetrees or Farrell to make a claim. In the meantime Barritt is probably the best bet, with Banahan as the wildcard. Longer term Sam Hill from Chiefs sounds like he's worth keeping an eye on.

Do you think Twelvetrees will make the grade?

The big problem for Billy is consistentcy, he's been finding that more recently and has been given clear backing by Cockerill who has already stated that he only wants Billy to be playing centre (he's only ever played 10 or centre for Tigers first team that's less movement than a lot of young pros) and by opting to retain him over Hipkiss. His overall game has been pretty good this season as he has kept his concentration in defence and in attack and shown the passing, speed and power we all know he has. Place kicking is still an issue as it swings massively from the sublime (100% in horrible conditions vs Wasps) to the ridiculous (4 from 10 was it? vs Falcons in perfect conditions). Tigers have given him an excellent platform by introducing him slowly (as is the preferred Cockers way) and hopefully he'll be staking a claim for when the internationals return as at the minute he's out performing Allen.

Lowe for me is the one to watch, he has to be in or around the national set up soon, he has all the skills we're looking for at 13, infact it's easiest to say think of all the good things about Tait that had people excited, now put them in toa guy that loves tackling and is rock solid ind efence and that's Lowe. The complete centre.

Not sure if he's the complete OC, that would be overhyping a talented youngster, would like to see more football skills from him, he doesn't really offering much creation to his outside backs and seems to have a non existent kicking game. Would like to see him mix it up as he does run good lines and is certainly no slouch in the contact area (attack or defence).

Difficult to imagine Lowe displacing Tuilagi at 13 at present.

And so far in the RWC there hasnt been anything wrong with Tuilagi's distribution either

Tuilagi has reasonable distribution, but not the sort you'd want for an IC. Actually I thought, surprisingly, that Tindall passed the ball nicely today.

Yeah its looking like 13 is pretty much nailed on now...pace, power and ability...so we just need a 12...

For most of yesterday Manu attacked from the 12 position, but defended the outside channel.

Ok 12 is nailed on just need a 13 now...

LondonTiger wrote:For most of yesterday Manu attacked from the 12 position, but defended the outside channel.

really? every break/run he made he seemed to be in the 13 channel.

Twelvetrees has a hell of a lot of potential, but he's not quite there yet. I'd like to see him training with the England squad and playing in the Saxons, but in the meantime Barritt & Tuilagi look like standout candidates for a post WC centre partnership to me. He was excellent last season, but playing with Hodgson has really allowed Barritt to show more of the fullness of his game the last few matches, excellent timing and deft handling touches as well as the bullocking stuff, I think he'd provide a perfect platform for Tuilagi to shine even more.