ROG/Sexton - 10/12

We saw this combination first against France where it looked as if Kindey’s hand was forced by the injury of Felix Jones, but against Australia when Darcy came off I, like most of us probably, expected Trimble to come onto the wing with either Earls or Bowe moving to the center. It seems Kidney considers this to be a genuine option now.

Darcy had a good game against Aus, he was targeted at the kickoffs and performed well, but he’s still not finding holes in defenses like he used to, is a ROG/Sexton 10/12 axis worth serious consideration as a starting combination? Kidney might be downplaying it as just a contingency we’ve allowed for, but if we make the ¼’s I’ve a feeling Kidney might spring this one on the opposition from the off.

Is it a master stroke or is it a case of crowbarring your best players onto the pitch at the same time at the expense of cohesion and balance?

Personally I think if Sexton was a Kiwi or Aussie he’d have half his caps at 12 at this stage anyway, and from what we’ve seen so far I think it’s working out well, and can (hopefully) only get better with practice.

Square pegs in round holes to be honest.
Ireland can only beat 3 Nations teams when everything is clicking, and they have a bit of luck. There is no point trying to carry players and fit them in to keep them happy.

Let Rog and Sexton fight it out and which ever is playing the best rugby then he will be the one to play.
Did David Humphreys ever threaten to retire if he wasn't being picked for Ireland?
Did Ireland ever consider dropping D'Arcy to put Humphreys in an inside center?

Sexton is 26, he is not a kid and shouldn't need to serve an apprenticeship at center to keep a worn out Rog happy.
Rog is 34 going on 35 and it's time to pension the old man off he if isn't happy with a bench place.

I don’t think it’s a good idea because I want to keep ROG happy, I think this solution could solve a number of problems we’re having at the moment.

1) We replace an off form Darcy with an in form Sexton
2) We reward the good form that O’Gara has shown
3) We improve our attacking options by adding Sexton in midfield
4) We have 2 recognised place kickers starting

Its a master stroke.

I would love to see it. Sexton is a super defender and at this stage would be a much better attacking threat than Darcy (who hasnt made a clean line break in a while).

Sexton and Rog have linked up very well aka running from deep inside our own half against Aus and two good attacking moves against France.

We would have two playmakers on the pitch who can kick and run.

All in all I feel Ireland would be much more dynamic.

I think it would be a big mistake to go down this route. Not because I think it doesn't work on the field, in fact I've long thought that Sexton would be an excellent 12 and mentioned this several times on the old 606.

However the problem is that we have no other fly half cover. If we start with both ROG and Sexton on the field and both take knocks then we are in big trouble. On that basis it is just too much of a risk.

I do see it as something we can continue to utilise from the bench from time to time but it is extremely risky to have both ROG and Sexton on the pitch at the same time and if Kidney had thought about using Sexton at 12 he should have left Paddy Wallace and brought a 3rd specialist fly half.

Could it lead to an longer term 10/12 axis of Sexton/Keatley?

red_stag wrote:Could it lead to an longer term 10/12 axis of Sexton/Keatley?

I don't think so because you need at least 2 fly halves in your squad. I'd say Keatley will become Sextons understudy at 10 and we have excellent 12 options coming through like Marshall and McFadden and also Spence is playing very well there too.

Good points Rodds, I expect ROG has still a bit of fight in him. I'm amazed its taken this long for us to do this though. This is common practice in so many other countries.

Rodders, that’s a bit dramatic.

Put Wallace on the bench, if Sexton gets knocked it’s a straight swap, if ROG gets knocked move Sexton to 10 and Wallace to 12. If they both get knocked at the same time, then that’s hard lines and it’s freakishly unlucky.

The role of a 12 with a 10/12 combo like this is not that dissimilar from an outhalf anyway, so it’s not as if Sexton needs to reinvent his game, he’s already a good defender a passer as it is. He’ll continue to be an option for kicking from hand and place kicking too. it will just mean that we can keep the opposition guessing, no more will Darcy take the ball as second receiver, step lose momentum go into a double tackle, gain no ground and present a slow ball.

Or have McFadden or Spence at bench too. I don't expect we will see the ROG-Sexton axis again for a while - maybe Italy.



I don't think its the way to go about playing Wales and I don't think they will play together against Russia.

If we see the combination again I would have thought it will be kept until the Qf’s.
Why would that not suit playing the Welsh Stag?

OK Mick so if we go down that route then do we do our training and preperation with Sexton mostly in the 12 position?

Then if ROG gets injured we are just expecting him to hit the ground running at 10?

I really think you need a top 10 on the bench. It's just too important a position to stick both guys in the firing line at same time.

If Humphreys or Keatley had of proved themselves for Ireland and been selected ahead of Wallace I'd be all for it but no way do I want to see Paddy Wallace required at 10 either starting or from the bench.

I'm not sure its strong enough defensively to be honest. Australia don't attack those channels in the same way that I expect Jamie Roberts and that Welsh backrow to do so.

Good point Stag. Certainly I don't want to see Roberts in his current form steaming towards our two most important players!

Stick Wallace or McFadden in there! Those guys are expendable!

Or Darcy - he's on his way out anyway!!



It paves the way for our Spence-BOD pairing in the 6 Nations.

I think it should be 10/12 of Sexton and Wallace for the next game, with D'arcy resting.

I don't think Sexton is a better 12 than Wallace (could be with more games but not at present)

without D'arcy it should be 10/12 of Sexton and Wallace, then you have options open on subs depending on game,

ROG on for Wallace, Sexton drops to 12,
sub Wallace for a winger and Trimble/Bowe/Earls move to centre

I think starting 10/12 of Sexton, Wallace gives more options to use later in the game than a 10/12 of ROG, Sexton, and I believe currently Wallace is better at 12 than Sexton.

I concur Kingshu. I think the ROG/ Sexton combo is something we will see more off and is a useful option to help close out a game but I don't think it is an option to start with in the big games.

If D'arcy is out, which is a bummer because he needs gametime, then we need to start with the centre partnership that we are planning against Italy and Wales.

Wallace would be the safe option but McFadden also could come into teh equation. This is not the time to be tinkering with tried and tested combos though.

According to Gaffers, Sexy not too pushed on the idea

Asked about the possibility of them working together as a No10‑12 combination, as they did in the last half hour against Australia, and for the last quarter of the warm-up game against France in August, Gaffney said: "Well, although Sexto doesn't want to hear it every time I talk to him about it, I think Sexto has got all the attributes for a good 12.

"He's an excellent defender – there's no doubt about that. He's one of the better defenders in the team: he's very, very good at it. He prefers to play 10 and he's a world-class 10, but they're both world-class players and trying to get them both into the team is a difficult challenge."

"But then again Darce [Gordon D'Arcy] has just needed more time and the more time Darce plays, as we all know, he gets better with time. He only had the one game in August and the game against the States – a pity he came off on Saturday but I think moving Jonny to 12 and Rog to 10 definitely didn't hurt."

Seems neither of them are keen to move to 12 then!

ROG wrote:It's an option but it's Jonny going to 12, not me. I won't be shifting!

Hmm reading between the lines this looks like something they are trying to pursue. Risky chaps, very risky....but then fortune does favour the brave...

O Gara would want to seriously wind his neck in as well. NO ONE is bigger than the team. Crying and spitting the dummy, threatening to walk away from the jersey is no way to go.

He'll get picked if he is deemed good enough.

"I feel as if I should be starting", "I want to start games like this", "It takes balls to knock over the points", "Im finished with this jersey after the WC"

Not really showing himself to be a squad man now is he???

I hope DK has a word.

Boyne wrote:O Gara would want to seriously wind his neck in as well. NO ONE is bigger than the team. Crying and spitting the dummy, threatening to walk away from the jersey is no way to go.

He'll get picked if he is deemed good enough.

This is the kinda of rubbish that we dont need. Nobody is spitting the dummy out. Keyboard warriors accusing one of Irelands most loyal, one of most capped, and highest scorers of all time of this is just sickening.

ROG is 34 and bloody hell if anybody wasnt thinking of retiring after a WC than when would you.

To Rodders point of our two fly halgs getting injured - how many times in 14 years of international rugby has ROG come off injured yet alone tow of them. Its a fair point to raise but that shouldnt be the deciding factor.

Question is would Ireland be stronger and more dynamic with ROG and Sexy on?

I would answer yes for the reason I gave above.

Boyne, there's a thread about ROGs comments elsewhere. Stick to that. Let us talk about this without the usual player bashing.

red_stag wrote:Boyne, there's a thread about ROGs comments elsewhere. Stick to that. Let us talk about this without the usual player bashing.

Didn't see that other thread. But I stick to what I said.

His comments were out of line.

ROG is 34 and bloody hell if anybody wasnt thinking of retiring after a WC than when would you.

Makes no sense Muffy old bean, but I can sense you dont agree.

Back to the OPs question- No I dont think its a viable option. We already have centers.

Its a WC, not jobs for the lads.

BlueMuff wrote:
To Rodders point of our two fly halgs getting injured - how many times in 14 years of international rugby has ROG come off injured yet alone tow of them. Its a fair point to raise but that shouldnt be the deciding factor.

It's not that likely but imagine this scenario. We are playing Italy with Sexton at 12 and ROG at 10. Sexton takes a knock after 50 min so you have to take him off because you can't risk losing him for the QF.

So now you have ROG and Wallace. ROG takes a knock or a blood bin at 70 min with the score at 15-12 for Ireland and we have to close out the game with Wallace at 10.
That is not a situation I would be happy with, would you?

It also means we need to have Wallace on the bench and I'm not sure that gives us out strongest 22.

Are we doing this because we genuinely feel Sexton is our best 12 or is it to facilitate ROG?

If its the latter then I think it would be a big mistake. I remember Woodward playing Wilkinson at 12 against the AB's for the Lions and 2005 and it was a disaster despite JW having considerably more experience at 12 than Sexton.

I actually thought Sexton's game improved on Saturday when ROG came on - less pressure on him to perform, I suppose when there are two playmakers and you don't have to take the kicks.

It would take a great deal of pressure off the outhalf if someone other than the OH could take the kicks as well. Having McFadden & Murray in a side should help this in future.

Well, I said in an article about a week ago, that should we make the RWC Final against the AB's, this will be our 10-12 axis. While I said partly in jest, I firmly believe that it is a real option. Against France, one of Fitzy's breaks for the line was created by Sexton, running a good support line dummy and a sexy inside pop pass from ROG to Fitzy's trailer. two recycles later SOB (i think) scored a try.

The calmness & experience of ROG (and his rugby brain) coupled with Sexton defending, pace & support lines gives us some serious options and I believe will take pressure of BOD to be 'creative' now that his pace is not what is used to be. Now he'll get to run hard angles and ghost trailers rather than trying to do everything himself/ Add Bowe or Trimble cutting back inside and Earls blinding pace looking for mismatches and we'll begin to look pretty good when spinning it wide.

Should Kearney get his mojo back in knowing when to hit the line then we have futher options still. And this still doesnt take away from the more route one option of SOB, Ferris and Heaslip making big carries up front with a speed merchant and their shoulder.

Bring. It. On.

I should add that I think this combination might work well in the final

Well rodders, thanks for agreeing. Now obviously, *insert Kiwi player here* will be running down ROG's channell all phookin' day, but for all his defensive failing he never shirks a tackle, unlike say a certain Q. Cooper. No that's too obvious, Quade C.

And people might laugh when I say this, but because opposition players see him as a soft touch they intentionally look for the contact with him, hoping to bust the tackle. All well and good you say, but had they simply just drawn the tackler and passed out of same, they'd create more opportunities out wide. I mean Munster and Ireland with ROG at 10 still have a fairly scabby defence, meaning he cannot be as grand a weakness in actual concession terms. Which is surely the most relevant stat. Imho.

roddersm wrote:[

It's not that likely but imagine this scenario. We are playing Italy with Sexton at 12 and ROG at 10. Sexton takes a knock after 50 min so you have to take him off because you can't risk losing him for the QF.

So now you have ROG and Wallace. ROG takes a knock or a blood bin at 70 min with the score at 15-12 for Ireland and we have to close out the game with Wallace at 10.
That is not a situation I would be happy with, would you?

It also means we need to have Wallace on the bench and I'm not sure that gives us out strongest 22.

I can't really see your point here,lets say we stick with the exact same team and squad as last saturday.Now Sexton takes a knock after 50 min so you have to take him off because you can't risk losing him for the QF.

Now you have RoG and D'Arcy.ROG takes a knock or a blood bin at 70 min with the score at 15-12 for Ireland and we have to close out the game with ??? at 10.

How is this any less likely a scenario?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
How is this any less likely a scenario?

Because a player is much more likely to get injured the longer he is on the field for.

If you start with Sexton and finish with ROG, Sexton plays 60min approx and ROG 20min. You have the luxury of taking one off if need be.

If you start with both, one has to play 80min and the other at least 60min and possible 80min too if there are other injuries.

There's no way you could expect both ROG and Sexton to play nearly every minute of every game for the rest of the tournament without risking injurying at least one of them.

By all means go for broke in the final but we have a lot more games to play and we can't afford to lose one of these guys let alone both.

Carter & Evans got injured within 4 mins of eachother. Cost NZ the game. Such things can happen at any time in a match.

I accept your point re mins on the field, but by that rationale you wouldn't play Ferris, well, ever. Instead he has 240mins of exceptional rugby under his belt.

Role the dice, take your chances; unlike Eddie, actually never die wondering. If PW is required to play 10 at any stage, then it just wasn't meant to be. Not having a go at him, just saying, imho, he is a 12 not a 10. However, ill defend him as our 3rd 10 any day of the week. Had Keatley gone to Munster last season, then I feel the story would be different, and come the 6N, PW will only be a 12.

debaters1 wrote:
I accept your point re mins on the field, but by that rationale you wouldn't play Ferris, well, ever. Instead he has 240mins of exceptional rugby under his belt.

I suppose the difference is if Ferris got injured the show would go on but if ROG or Sexton got injured the show would roll to a grinding halt.

Also I'm not so sure how happy I'd be sticking Sexton up against the likes of Roberts, Tindall, Nonu etc. he's an excellent front on tackler but defending in the 3/4's is different and he could be exposed if he's caught out positionally.

It might be worth gambling should we get to the final but we have a run of potentially four games against teams we've come across before and beaten so I don't think there's a need to do anything differently to what we've been doing so far.

AlynDavies wrote:Square pegs in round holes to be honest.
Ireland can only beat 3 Nations teams when everything is clicking, and they have a bit of luck. There is no point trying to carry players and fit them in to keep them happy.

Let Rog and Sexton fight it out and which ever is playing the best rugby then he will be the one to play.
Did David Humphreys ever threaten to retire if he wasn't being picked for Ireland?
Did Ireland ever consider dropping D'Arcy to put Humphreys in an inside center?

Sexton is 26, he is not a kid and shouldn't need to serve an apprenticeship at center to keep a worn out Rog happy.
Rog is 34 going on 35 and it's time to pension the old man off he if isn't happy with a bench place.

I agree with this. Sexton is a very good player and not a bad option to slot in for that particular game as his defense is very good. However, if Darcy needs to be replaced then for god sake use McFadden. He is a perfectly good 1st centre and also a real kicking threat.

I can't understand the point of this.

Would you start Sexton at 12 (who's played there for about a total of 60 mins) or P Wallace who playes at 12 regularly for club and country.

You have to say it's Wallace gets the 12 spot ahead of Sexton, both have 2nd 5/8 qualities but Wallace has more experience playing there.

you can make a case however for bringing ROG on for Wallace, and Sexton dropping to 12 later on in a game.

But Sexton shouldn't start at 12 ahead of Wallace, similar players in that position but Wallace has more experience playing at 12, and is the better 12 out of the 2.

leinsterbaby wrote:Sexton is a very good player and not a bad option to slot in for that particular game as his defense is very good. However, if Darcy needs to be replaced then for god sake use Wallace. He is a perfectly good 1st centre and also a real kicking threat.

Good call Leinsterbaby

red_stag wrote:I'm not sure its strong enough defensively to be honest. Australia don't attack those channels in the same way that I expect Jamie Roberts and that Welsh backrow to do so.

I think thats the most valid point in this thread so far......

Both are excellant players, and sexton a very good defender, but at 10. Hooks a good defender at 10, but he gets ripped to shreds in the centre. There is a difference, u guys have a monster backrow, but they couldnt make up for 2 defensive weaknesses* (*for lack of a better word) so close together.

Imagine Roberts/North/Gethin Jenkins/B Davies/Faletau running down the 10/12 channel all day long.

Darcy may not be on top form, but hes still a lot more sound defensively than Sexton would be at 12.

We've had a problem with Byrne recently, even at his worst hes still spectacularly solid in defence at FB, and you could see form SA's first score where a certain positions defence is important. If byrne was at FB, id have backed him 99/100 to have smashed steyn into touch, hook went in for a tackle as he would in the 10 channel and just got bumped off.

Use Wallace, isnt he there as replacement 12?

Of course, just my opinion

Comfort wrote:
Both are excellant players, and sexton a very good defender, but at 10. Hooks a good defender at 10, but he gets ripped to shreds in the centre. There is a difference, u guys have a monster backrow, but they couldnt make up for 2 defensive weaknesses* (*for lack of a better word) so close together.

Imagine Roberts/North/Gethin Jenkins/B Davies/Faletau running down the 10/12 channel all day long.

Darcy may not be on top form, but hes still a lot more sound defensively than Sexton would be at 12.

We've had a problem with Byrne recently, even at his worst hes still spectacularly solid in defence at FB, and you could see form SA's first score where a certain positions defence is important. If byrne was at FB, id have backed him 99/100 to have smashed steyn into touch, hook went in for a tackle as he would in the 10 channel and just got bumped off.

....And that, my friends, is Game, Set and Match .

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Sexton is a very good player and not a bad option to slot in for that particular game as his defense is very good. However, if Darcy needs to be replaced then for god sake use McFadden. He is a perfectly good 1st centre and also a real kicking threat.

Good call Leinsterbaby

No problem

touche leinsterbaby, touche

I'm not a fan of playing ROG and Sexton together if I'm honest, they haven't really been tested there properly and I would rather not risk it at the world cup. We have Wallace and Mcfadden to cover 12, lets give them a chance there.

Kingshu wrote:I think it should be 10/12 of Sexton and Wallace for the next game, with D'arcy resting.

I don't think Sexton is a better 12 than Wallace (could be with more games but not at present)

without D'arcy it should be 10/12 of Sexton and Wallace, then you have options open on subs depending on game,

ROG on for Wallace, Sexton drops to 12,
sub Wallace for a winger and Trimble/Bowe/Earls move to centre

I think starting 10/12 of Sexton, Wallace gives more options to use later in the game than a 10/12 of ROG, Sexton, and I believe currently Wallace is better at 12 than Sexton.

100% agree with this

D'arcy had a good game at the weekend. It's a risky strategy, and one we don't actually need to beat Italy, Wales or England. And I like seeing ROG come on in the last 20 minutes. He always has a good impact. He's the best backup 10 in the tournament. So I'm against starting ROG/Sexton together at 10/12.

We probably will see it though now that D'arcy has an injury. Most likely in the final quarter of matches.

I think ROG should start the Russia game,give Sexton some rest and hope he gets his head right for the Italy game.

I think Sexton needs to start to see if he can sort out his kicking and maybe his confidence might improve. Worth trying to see if ROG isn't on the bench whether he step up and take command of the situation (I know that won't happen - too risky).

If ROG starts and Ireland run in a bucket of tries that won't help Sexton, at all.

Sin é wrote:I think Sexton needs to start to see if he can sort out his kicking and maybe his confidence might improve. Worth trying to see if ROG isn't on the bench whether he step up and take command of the situation (I know that won't happen - too risky).

If ROG starts and Ireland run in a bucket of tries that won't help Sexton, at all.

A spell on the bench wouldnt do him any harm. ROG had to play his way back into contention when he was off form.

Sexton should have to do the same now that his totally off form.

BlueMuff wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think Sexton needs to start to see if he can sort out his kicking and maybe his confidence might improve. Worth trying to see if ROG isn't on the bench whether he step up and take command of the situation (I know that won't happen - too risky).

If ROG starts and Ireland run in a bucket of tries that won't help Sexton, at all.

A spell on the bench wouldnt do him any harm. ROG had to play his way back into contention when he was off form.

Sexton should have to do the same now that his totally off form.

Sin é wrote:I think Sexton needs to start to see if he can sort out his kicking and maybe his confidence might improve. Worth trying to see if ROG isn't on the bench whether he step up and take command of the situation (I know that won't happen - too risky).

If ROG starts and Ireland run in a bucket of tries that won't help Sexton, at all.

I agree totally Sin. This is the best and last chance really for Sexton to get his goal kicking up to scratch. If he can't then we will have to turn to ROG come the knock out stages.

I think Sexton is playing well, not on fire, but he's looked good with the ball in hand and improved against Australia. I would definitely give him the nod and if his place kicking isn't spot on I'd drop him to the bench against Italy.

I wouldn't leave ROG off the bench and I'd like to see him come on after 50-60min and move Sexton to 12 again.