France v New Zealand - who wants to lose the most....

Could we possibly see an international test match between two top tier nations being played next Saturday where both teams will be trying desperately to lose? Given the AB's history in this competition and to give themselves a chance of reaching the final doesnt it make sense? As for France if they play as they usually do and Lose no one will be able to tell the difference...

New Zealand are looking to blow everyone away irrespective of who they are - its a mute point - Nice for debate but an absolute myth - They want nothing more than to batter France, particularly France when you think about it

BBC has been reporting this morning that the All Blacks are accusing France of fielding a deliberately weak side to lose

Davie wrote:BBC has been reporting this morning that the All Blacks are accusing France of fielding a deliberately weak side to lose

Thats because they want France to beat them. It's all mind games .

What a load of tosh. Lazy NZ journos should get off their butts and so some swot as then they'd realise that this French side is near their best and a bloody good side at that. Only the props look raw and that's due to injury from what I understand.

Australia and South Africa are the harder side of the draw. But NZ has 10 3N titles to their combined 6. With a record like that NZ shouldn't, and won't give a toss who they play-they should be confident playing anyone. Any other teams with designs on winning it should be the same.

Davie wrote:BBC has been reporting this morning that the All Blacks are accusing France of fielding a deliberately weak side to lose

Interesting the BBC has now corrected their own earlier article. They've now amended it to say NZ *media* is claiming this

Until last Saturday, NZ had a likely SA semi final and a hypothetical Australia final. We were going to have to win anyway against a SH side. Better to do it after a SA vs Australia game the week before where we play Argentina or Scotland most probably, allowing the likes of Read recovering from injury a less torrid battle. If we want to win the thing again we have to beat whatever side comes to us. You don´t get that winning momentum or winning confidence from throwing games.

This is the ABs. We play to win every match. There are no dead rubbers, just impossibly high standards to reach. So utter rubbish these claims of easier sides of the draw, strategic losing. Win the game and let the moronic debate go on around you and despite you. Grrrrr!!!

It makes no difference to New Zealand which side of the draw they're on. They'll have to beat Australia/South Africa in one match and the best European side in another in the quarters and semi's. The side of the draw just changes the order in which they face them. Plus, I don't think it's in the All Black dna to deliberately lose a match. They go out to win every game they play.

France on the other hand probably do want to lose and probably will.

France will lose either way NZ are the best at everything in this sport so why not cheating... oh wait...

Seriously though NZ will hammer them and feel much the better for it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:France on the other hand probably do want to lose and probably will.

I'm not so sure. The French don't seem to like playing England so I'm sure they'd rather face Scotland. That said they hate playing Argentina too so if they get through ahead of Scotland France will be fecked either way!

Surely for both sides it just means having to beat a SH side in the semi and not in the final or in the final and not in the semi? If you plan to win the tournament then what's the difference?

In fact the probable outcome of playing England, then Ireland/Wales, then SA/Aus is probably harder than Scotland, SA/Aus, Eng/Fra/Ire/Wal as I would think both sides would fear England more than Scotland. Even if they don't it's about the same anyway.

Neither will play to lose, however France may not be as upset if they do lose

A route to the final of England and Ireland/Wales isn't exactly easy, and arguably harder than Scotland/Arg and SA/Aus on current form. Teams finish where they do in pools for a reason.

But England may throw the Scotland game if France do win...

EnglishReign wrote:A route to the final of England and Ireland/Wales isn't exactly easy, and arguably harder than Scotland/Arg and SA/Aus on current form. Teams finish where they do in pools for a reason.

You would still have to play SA/Aus in the final anyway, surely a hard semi final then an easier final without having lost a game is easier than an easy semi final then a hard final? If you're goal is to get to the final but you're not worried about winning it then the easiest option is lose the game and to not face the SH until the final, but if you plan to win the world cup it makes no difference except ruining your winning streak and putting doubt in the players minds.

disneychilly wrote:What a load of tosh. Lazy NZ journos should get off their butts and so some swot as then they'd realise that this French side is near their best and a bloody good side at that. Only the props look raw and that's due to injury from what I understand.

Australia and South Africa are the harder side of the draw. But NZ has 10 3N titles to their combined 6. With a record like that NZ shouldn't, and won't give a toss who they play-they should be confident playing anyone. Any other teams with designs on winning it should be the same.

disney I would think NZ would love australia to take us out in the quarter finals.

They would rather play Oz who they have beaten 8 out of the last ten times, than us who they have only beaten 5 out of the last ten times.

screamingaddabs wrote:Surely for both sides it just means having to beat a SH side in the semi and not in the final or in the final and not in the semi?

True but France have to get to a Semi final first and they don't seem to like playing their old buddies from across the channel. Both the English and the Puma's seem to have a bit of an edge over them.

They love playing the Celts so it depends whether they'd rather play them in the QF or SF.

Hey Biltong, mate we shouldn't have any preference. Though a thought in retort, NZ has never beaten Australia in a World Cup match. Watching the Cup from here in Dublin, I often remember that this was the city in which NZ played their last match as World Champions.

It's a perk that it looks like one will be gone before the semi. I think it would work in NZ's favour to win. Argentina or Scotland you would think would be stiff challenges and a great way to lead in, whilst the real big game would be the semi. Obviously one game at a time, but there would be no shortage of motivation in the final as, well, it's the final, but the kitchen sink game for me, if we beat France, would be the semi.

Is there a risk for the AB's that if France don't turn up and give NZ a game here and they face Scotland or the Pumas in the QF, that they will be seriously undercooked come a potential SF clash with SA/Australia both of whom will be fairly battle hardened and switched on.

No disrespect to Scotland or Argentina but that is arguably the easiest route out of any of the teams to get to the SF.

disneychilly wrote:What a load of tosh. Lazy NZ journos should get off their butts and so some swot as then they'd realise that this French side is near their best and a bloody good side at that. Only the props look raw and that's due to injury from what I understand.

Australia and South Africa are the harder side of the draw. But NZ has 10 3N titles to their combined 6. With a record like that NZ shouldn't, and won't give a toss who they play-they should be confident playing anyone. Any other teams with designs on winning it should be the same.

Could not agree more.
If this is not the best French team, then who should be out there instead? Without question one of the back back rows in the RWC. Only real question is Parra at 10, and he is a fiesty and shifty little guy.

To me, this is just a lot of smoke. If anyone thinks the French are going to simply lay down, they are nuts (this ain't the war, you know).

Haha nice Doctor. Think you can get Dusautoir's 07 NZ shirt on eBay. The listing below it is an early 20th century French rifle in great condition (dropped twice, never fired).

If we dont get a tough match v france then the scot arg match is a better route for us.
It will mean the last 8 will be our first tough match of the tournament and potential for upset as in 07.
England are more likely to upset than scot or argie- neither ever having beaten us though englands never beaten us world cup time either.
But then if france beat us we will have had our hard match and will be ready for england anyway.
scot or arg will be tough enough as its knockout. Then either a battered oz or sa side.
So for NZ it doesnt really matter.
We'll be back at eden park and it will be for others to knock us off. And that will take some doing by any team.

That is... Assuming no more upsets. The ire italy and SA Samoa match are still candidates for upset. As is NZ france.

NZ COULD lose a match and still win the WC but the NZ public would be in uproar so NZ have to go out and win all their matches

roddersm wrote:Is there a risk for the AB's that if France don't turn up and give NZ a game here and they face Scotland or the Pumas in the QF, that they will be seriously undercooked come a potential SF clash with SA/Australia both of whom will be fairly battle hardened and switched on.

No disrespect to Scotland or Argentina but that is arguably the easiest route out of any of the teams to get to the SF.

Firstly I think France will turn up and Scotland or Argentina (or mathematically England) in the quarter finals is not the same as pool play. Whoever comes out of the SA vs Aus match will be battle hardened but also very much battle sore. Read is coming back into the side against Canada and I´d like to have him play a match against Scotland or Argentina next up rather than SA vs Australia or the other side of the draw.

So everything to play for and for Ted to finally wake up to his A team and start playing that team from the quarters onwards.

Davie wrote:

Davie wrote:BBC has been reporting this morning that the All Blacks are accusing France of fielding a deliberately weak side to lose

Interesting the BBC has now corrected their own earlier article. They've now amended it to say NZ *media* is claiming this

Wait until someone points out to them that it's one London based freelancer (Peter Bills) that's saying it in the NZ media. And on the flip side ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10753348

If France beat NZ, will England v Scotland be an 0-0 draw?

All these hypotheticals are nonsense anyway as it's going to be Ireland v the All Blacks in the final! I wonder if Ireland are actually shorter odds now than if that were to happen?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Davie wrote:

Davie wrote:BBC has been reporting this morning that the All Blacks are accusing France of fielding a deliberately weak side to lose

Interesting the BBC has now corrected their own earlier article. They've now amended it to say NZ *media* is claiming this

Wait until someone points out to them that it's one London based freelancer (Peter Bills) that's saying it in the NZ media. And on the flip side ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10753348

Yes and the AB's themselves...wish our media would shut up sometimes...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10753457

"If France beat NZ, will England v Scotland be an 0-0 draw?"

There's a good chance of that anyway the way these two teams play

Neither side is going to 'throw' this match. It's disrespectful to suggest they will. And I assume those who suggest this is a weak France XV haven't seen how good France looked with Parra playing outside Yachvilli.

I cant see the blacks ever trying to lose espescially against France. The french players could however be disinterested in this game.

Its been proven already in this tournament that out of SA, Australia, France, England, Ireland and Wales there isn't the big difference in ability that has previously existed.

NZ should rightly view either side of the draw as teams that can cause them problems and they will have be at their best in the final 2 games of the tournament to win it, as every other team would think. Having Scotland/Argentina seems to be the easiest of the quarter final opponants so why give that up.

Irelands win does set up a great prospect of one side of the draw providing the best 6N team for the final and the other the best tri nations team (assuming Scotland progress and lose to NZ who win the group).

Apart from Scotland (sorry) I feel every team still has the ability to make the final and this could be the most competitive World cup in a long time.

Hasn't every world cup winner won all the matches including the group games?

While losing this game is not the end of the journey it certainly will knock the confidence off the losing team, and give other teams the hope they too can beat them.

Saying that, it now means Australia would have to beat history if they are to win the WC

Throughout my many years I've known known many rugby teams and many rugby players,I've never met one that wanted to lose.

New Zealand are looking to blow everyone away irrespective of who they are - its a mute point - Nice for debate but an absolute myth - They want nothing more than to batter France, particularly France when you think about it.

İf your going to use 'clever' words then you may as well get them right. İts MOOT point, not MUTE

Oxford
There's not much difference between "mute" and "dumb",then again maybe thats a moot point.

Your right ! İ have Seen wendyball postere losing or going for a drawer önce. Germany and austria önce passed the ball around aimlessly for 60 mins to eliminate italy from a world cup !! But yes in gods game nobody would stoop so low !!!!

Last time France fielded a "weak side" in NZ they beat NZ. This is not a weak side at all if you ask me the NZ media has it all wrong as usual. It's very worrying.

Please lose France!!!

It is a shame that this issue is even on the table but of course we know that cheating goes on at all levels of professional rugby.

The sort of selection that at first seemed to produce amazing results for France quickly backfired on Lievremont and has always left observers thinkng that the French coach was characteristically mercurial in his approach, just like the French team itself. Not many teams or coaches can get way with out of position picks, think Bergamasco at 9 for Italy. To do it now seems mad or worse but that is lievremont for you, he has nothing to lose. His radical approach versus a nervous NZ might just produce a result he will regret, to win the group

Of all the world's teams France are the most unpredictable. You never know what team will turn up, if turn up it does at all. For NZ they are the true banana skin. Personally i think this might be a pick too far but I don't believe the French players will go out to lose that game - not sure anyone who has ever actually played the game would suggest this. And to suggest that the ABs, a proud rugby nation hosting an RWC, would go out to lose seems, to me, not only stupid but quite offensive. But who knows.

The facts are that to be RU in this group means England in the quarter and probably Wales or Ireland in a semi. Clearly a better option than an almost inevitable semi v Aus or SA now. If Lievremont does have this in mind and has deliberately picked a side to lose to achieve it then all i can say is it is for the best that he is on his way out. It is a betrayal of his players and of rugby itself and i just don't buy it.

Dont worry Leinster...history will not repeat with this one...although from all accounts here...both teams want this win badly...the rest is media hype...

...yeah all I'm saying is it is such nonsense that this isn't France's first team. Anyone who says so may I ask them to tell me what the first team is?

Granted the Parra call is an odd one but Lievremont is an odd ball and it's not the first time he has played players out of position, Traille, Rougerie, Heymans, Harinordiquy have all played multiple positions over the last few years.

Furthermore, if you ask me France's first choice outside centre and fullback are playing for their club Toulouse back home (Jauzion and Poitrenau). Did Lievremont leave them there because he wanted to throw the game v NZ too?

Who knows if it wasnt for his lying maybe Leivremont might have been tempted to bring and start Fat Basterau instead of Mermoz. That's just the kinda crazy guy he is.

It's a good team and they might get spanked but they might just win too.

...last time France played and beat NZ in the WC they had a scrum half/out half playing out half. Expect Parra to go for drop goals from all sorts of places.

leinsterbaby wrote:...last time France played and beat NZ in the WC they had a scrum half/out half playing out half. Expect Parra to go for drop goals from all sorts of places.

thats the most logical reasoning Ive heard so far...

Funny, but I just had a bad thought. Here we all are talking up the French. Not predicting they will win, mind, but talkng them up none the less. I think the last time so many people talked up the French it was about the Maginot Line, and we all know how that worked out. So, they better play balls to the wall Rugby, or I will be peed.

Can't see it doc. Unless our returning injured all drop like flies I think it will be a rather largish margin...

The truth is both sides need to win this match to top the group,further France probably don`t know there A and B side.
No side losing there group has won a RWC,so for the loser to win a RWC is going against history.
France are treating this game as just another pool match to win,which arguably is the correct way to be.
NZ have with perhaps one exception named there strongest side,with Read back it will be.
The furore about throwing the match was a British Journalist covering the RWC.NOT the NZ media indeed if you want to motivate a team that is it.
It may well not be the free flowing feast every one expects,nor a largish margin.
I expect a NZ win by about 10,but it could go either way.

Possible, but it also may be a largish margin, so I'll take that for now...
I'll go for 18 minimum. 30 if the AB's let loose.

I just think a French team that knows they'll be looking good regardless of the result won't 'try' as hard to stop the AB's. 'Try' in a broad sense in that the motivational factors of a knockout won't be in their minds...

Apparently if french beat nz tomorrow they go to the no.1 ranking. Thats a little weird.

Taylorman wrote:Possible, but it also may be a largish margin, so I'll take that for now...
I'll go for 18 minimum. 30 if the AB's let loose.

I just think a French team that knows they'll be looking good regardless of the result won't 'try' as hard to stop the AB's. 'Try' in a broad sense in that the motivational factors of a knockout won't be in their minds...

Oh dear kiwis. You seem to all be expecting a mini blow out. This is really worrying. Have you actually seen the French team? They have some absolutly brilliant players. Id say the team picked is still better than any other in the NH by a good bit. Vincent Clerc is a try scoring machine in the mould of Christophe Dominici or Bernard Salles. Remember them? Medard, Mermoz or Rougerie can all break the line and score great tries.

There are no weaknesses in the pack at all. Harinordiquy is swapped for Picamoles who is a brilliant 8 and one of the best in the world and he also has a lot of experience. Indeed this team has something like an average of 50 caps per man.

The only questionable selections are traille at full back and Parra at out half. Traille isnt great but he is a big man with good defense and a massive boot. Parra at out half suggests to me France are going to play percentages, drop goals, 10 man rugby. A very physical forward dominated match with some big guns coming off the bench. Are New Zealand ready for a really physical match?

Some will say Lievremont's selections are crazy or even more ridiculous that he is trying to throw the match however as they say even a broken watch tells the time right twice a day. Lievermont has already won in NZ with a "second string" team or have you forgotten that already? DONT WRITE THE FRENCH OFF PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The French flyhalf selection has caught everyone's eye but that French backrow is my pick to cause the ab's significant problems particularly as their own back row looks unbalanced with Read missing. Picamoles to date is very underated but will be prominent in the French game for sure.
The French front row looks green but you rarely get poor French props and pretty sure they will target the ab hooker in the scrum. Who us the ref for this one - is it Barnes?

France back row is very strong. Dussatoir is actually quite a small guy but one of the biggest hitters in the game. Cant wait for this one.