Euan Murray wants Sunday matches banned

First topic message reminder :

My two cents on this is that the guy is an absolute clown - he wants international rugby to ban Sunday matches because he cant play on Sundays due to his faith - unbelievable.

"I don't see why there have to be games on Sundays," said Murray. "I hope things will change in future."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15016776.stm

Well it's his choice but I prefer Sunday rugby, for a start fans can get to games easier as the shops close at 4pm, and kick off isn't normally 6pm, so there is much less traffic.
It's also easier for fans to attend these games, as Friday night rugby can some times clash with rush hour, and Saturday can be a very busy day for most families.

For closer fans. If you're travelling I imagine it's harder to get back Sunday night

Mr Bounce wrote:I think he's stupid to not think that the media will play this out of proportion and make him out to be some sort of strange religion-obsessed outsider who thinks everyone should do what he says.

I imagine he knew how he might be portrayed but was happy to answer honestly.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

A Catholic?? No - he's a Protestant.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!

wulliam wrote:Secondly, why does he believe Sunday matches are wrong?
Not because it's his 'opinion', but because it's what God says in the Bible. Again you may not like that, or believe in God, or have any respect for the Bible, but it's not something that Murray has made up. He believes it, and believes it consistently.

There are plenty of other people who take religion seriously who have no problem with playing on Sundays. So while he may not have made it up, his own interpretation is certainly involved. While he is not unique in refusing to play on Sundays, he is certainly in the minority.

That's not to say the majority are necessarily right, but it baffles me why so many other Christians have no such problem.

wulliam wrote:I could say so much more...I'll finish with this:
Should a professional (in whatever walk of life) consider his paid profession as being more important than his loved ones?
If not, should he treat the God who (in his opinion if you prefer) made him and saved him as being of less worth?
Surely such a God is worthy of the very best he can give, including obedience to His Word, the Bible. Which includes Sunday as a day of rest.

I don't consider my job more important than my loved ones, but occasionally I have to go in to work on the weekends. It doesn't mean I've turned my back on them.

I think the whole thing is OTT. His loved ones are still loved if he plays on a Sunday, to suggest otherwise is emotional blackmail.

Firstly, welcome to the forums Wulliam! Excellent first few posts.

\With all due respect it is his opinion or belief that the Bible is a document of real events, and that there is a God and you should live your life as according to what it says in there. He shouldn't make any apologies for that, to anyone. It's his life.

I think he was foolish to suggest that rugby shouldn't be played on Sundays. It's not for him to decide when games should be played. I'm sure he was in no way suggesting that it was! But he's set himself up for a fall.

I come from a country where religous groups have held a lot of sway over the years and forced their beliefs on various issues (abortion, what you should do with your sundays, how you should conduct yourself etc.) on everyone. That isn't fair. And it isn't fair to other rugby players and supporters if games aren't played on Sunday just because some people are uncomfortable with it.

They exercise their right not to play; rugby fans respect that and respect him. I personally have a lot of respect for him as a player and a man, but I strongly disagree with him on this.

Notch, thanks for the welcome! I appreciate what you say - my wife is from NI and I'm well aware of some of the issues. Yes, it's his belief - and mine too (obviously!). But it's a belief with such far-reaching implications that have to be followed through on - else it's not a real belief!! A fully Biblical Christian worldview is a radically counter-cultural thing! Foolish? - yes...much the same as Christ was 'foolish' not to defend himself when false charges were made. Rather than quote a lot of the Bible here, have a read of 1 Corinthians 1:20-31 [I'm not yet allowed to post a link]

greybeard wrote:

wulliam wrote:Secondly, why does he believe Sunday matches are wrong?
Not because it's his 'opinion', but because it's what God says in the Bible. Again you may not like that, or believe in God, or have any respect for the Bible, but it's not something that Murray has made up. He believes it, and believes it consistently.

There are plenty of other people who take religion seriously who have no problem with playing on Sundays. So while he may not have made it up, his own interpretation is certainly involved. While he is not unique in refusing to play on Sundays, he is certainly in the minority.

That's not to say the majority are necessarily right, but it baffles me why so many other Christians have no such problem.

Exodus 20: 8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
I struggle to interpret this as anything other than a straightforward command. OK, there's still the issue of how the Jewish Sabbath changed into the Christian Sunday - but this makes it abundantly clear that one day is to be kept clear of work. Which for Euan is rugby. The whole Sabbath-Sunday thing can be discussed if necessary but seems to me to be off-topic. There are many other verses which make it clear that God is serious on this point.
I hesitate to criticise other Christians, but it seems to me that many have not read their Bibles properly, or else are not taught properly, or else are 'Christian' in name only, which is worth nothing. After all, the very name 'Christian' surely means one who follows Christ?

You're quite right to say that being in the minority doesn't make you wrong. There were very few who dared to stand up against Hitler. [Note, please, I'm not comparing anyone on this board to him - just making the point!]

greybeard wrote:

wulliam wrote:I could say so much more...I'll finish with this:
Should a professional (in whatever walk of life) consider his paid profession as being more important than his loved ones?
If not, should he treat the God who (in his opinion if you prefer) made him and saved him as being of less worth?
Surely such a God is worthy of the very best he can give, including obedience to His Word, the Bible. Which includes Sunday as a day of rest.

I don't consider my job more important than my loved ones, but occasionally I have to go in to work on the weekends. It doesn't mean I've turned my back on them.
I think the whole thing is OTT. His loved ones are still loved if he plays on a Sunday, to suggest otherwise is emotional blackmail.

I'm not talking of his loved ones, rather saying that he loves God even more and therefore even more is due to Him...obedience for one thing.
It's only OTT if his God isn't as great as he believes.

Regards,
William

wulliam wrote:Secondly, why does he believe Sunday matches are wrong?
Not because it's his 'opinion', but because it's what God says in the Bible.

I wasn't aware Sunday rugby matches were mentioned in the bible. Can you give me a reference for that?

The bible doesn't mention rugby. Nor does it mention and sporting fixture. In fact (as far as I'm aware) it doesn't even mention Sundays

To put that twist on it is indeed his "opinion"

Davie wrote:

wulliam wrote:Secondly, why does he believe Sunday matches are wrong?
Not because it's his 'opinion', but because it's what God says in the Bible.

I wasn't aware Sunday rugby matches were mentioned in the bible. Can you give me a reference for that?

The bible doesn't mention rugby. Nor does it mention and sporting fixture. In fact (as far as I'm aware) it doesn't even mention Sundays

To put that twist on it is indeed his "opinion"

His work is rugby. It is also the work of everybody else involved in professional rugby.
The Bible says, 'Don't work on the Sabbath.'

I'm happy to discuss the Sabbath-Sunday thing, but as rugbydreamer says, not here.

That allowed, it seems pretty clear to me that Euan is reading the Bible correctly.

William

William great points sir

However you are missing one thing. No one is forcing Murray to be a professional rugby player. There are plenty of other occupations which don't require him to work on Sundays.

I don't think it's for him to judge other rugby players, Christian or otherwise, because they don't share his point of view.

I fully respect his descision not to play on Sunday but I don't think its for him to say that others should do the same.

My (enforced) bible studies were far too long ago

The only thing I can think of that forbids rugby is the verse about "not lying down with animals"

If he feels that strongly about it then he should seek employment that does not involve working on Sundays.

I am sorry but refusing to play on a Sunday is the same as him refusing to play when a homosexual is also playing. They are both "frowned upon" by the bible (and many who follow its wording as fact) but they are both completely acceptable in a modern, educated, civilised working environment and society as a whole. Euan is doing his country a disservice but then that is his choice - unfortunately for Scotland he is a very valuable player and cannot be replaced adequately; especially if injuries start to occur. Northampton were right to get rid of him when he refuses to fulfil his contract of employment.

(P.s. this is not intended to be inflammatory but simply highlights the fact that fundamentalist/literally taken religion has no place in a professional work environment - particularly a sporting one).

roddersm wrote:No one is forcing Murray to be a professional rugby player. There are plenty of other occupations which don't require him to work on Sundays.

Indeed. And he's not forcing anyone to pick him for the squad. AR obviously rates him and doesn't find his position divisive within the squad.
He's been asked a question, he's given an honest answer. Should he lie about his beliefs so as not to offend people? I don't think anyone is suggesting that he should - but, given his beliefs, what should he do when asked the question. He's not been belligerent about it. As I've said before, it's not 'his point of view'. And I don't think he's judging others - he's stating what he believes.

His employment does not require working on Sundays. After all, he doesn't.

mcrjfNo7 - are you implying that Euan has refused to play in that scenario. I'm not aware of it. If he hasn't then please don't blame him for something he hasn't done. If it was that 'unfortunate' for Scotland then why on earth take him to NZ?? As for 'fundamentalist/literally taken religion has no place in a professional work environment' - I'm afraid that's just your opinion.

I've probably said all I can on this without repeating myself too much. Not that I'm going into hiding, but if I feel I've already said my piece on a point then I'll not repeat it.

It's sufficient to say that I agree with Euan's position completely, and know many others who are thrilled to see him making a stand.
May God bless him.

William

mcrjfNo7 wrote:I am sorry but refusing to play on a Sunday is the same as him refusing to play when a homosexual is also playing.

Ah come on now that's a feckin ludicrous thing to say!

Has Murray ever said or did anything to suggest that? If not then you are bang out of order. You can't compare not playing on a Sunday to being homophobic. Thats crazy!

The church is willing to take money off people on Sundays so there should be no problem with the turnstiles doing the same.

He is not forcing anybody to pick him for the squad but while he is a member of the squad then he is making himself available to be picked.

I respect his decision to not work on Sunday if he feels that is an important part of his belief, but the reality is that even the most fervent Chiristians don't follow everything pronounced in the bible, they are highly selective.

I certainly hope for his teammates' sakes he doesn't enforce Exodus 31:15

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall be put to death

wulliam wrote:

roddersm wrote:No one is forcing Murray to be a professional rugby player. There are plenty of other occupations which don't require him to work on Sundays.

Indeed. And he's not forcing anyone to pick him for the squad. AR obviously rates him and doesn't find his position divisive within the squad.
He's been asked a question, he's given an honest answer. Should he lie about his beliefs so as not to offend people? I don't think anyone is suggesting that he should - but, given his beliefs, what should he do when asked the question. He's not been belligerent about it. As I've said before, it's not 'his point of view'. And I don't think he's judging others - he's stating what he believes.

His employment does not require working on Sundays. After all, he doesn't.

Fair points William. Thanks for taking the time to come on here and explain your point of view. It's obviously a matter you are quite close to. Good luck to Murray, each to their own and he is quite entitled to air his views. Back to the rugby he seems to be finding his form again.

roddersm wrote:

mcrjfNo7 wrote:I am sorry but refusing to play on a Sunday is the same as him refusing to play when a homosexual is also playing.

Ah come on now that's a feckin ludicrous thing to say!

Has Murray ever said or did anything to suggest that? If not then you are bang out of order. You can't compare not playing on a Sunday to being homophobic. Thats crazy!

Read it again,,, He did not say that Murray said it he just pointed out that the Bible is homophobic.

I know what he said and the point stands. Anyway I think this thread is on a slippery slope so I'm out.

Murray is entitled to his beliefs and fair play to him . I always thought that playing rugby was about getting the better of your opposite number ,to wear down ,intimidate as much as possible and hurt them (legally of course) by smashing them in the tackle /ruck etc, i just wondered if those sort of actions conflicted with his beliefs.

I could see him struggling to get contracts in the future .what happens if his side have a big HC game on a sunday and a few front row injuries and hes the one of the few fit ?

wulliam wrote:He's been asked a question, he's given an honest answer. Should he lie about his beliefs so as not to offend people? I don't think anyone is suggesting that he should - but, given his beliefs, what should he do when asked the question. He's not been belligerent about it. As I've said before, it's not 'his point of view'. And I don't think he's judging others - he's stating what he believes.

I remember Glen Hoddle getting it in the neck for giving an honest answer about his belief in Karma. He even lost his job. Why was that not seen as a man just being up front about his deeply held beliefs? Why the uproar?

If Murray refused to play at a particular time because it blocked his chi, or damaged his aura, or the pitch wasn't correctly aligned with the right ley lines, or he was told not to during a seance then most people would scratch their heads and think "what a mentalist" and there would be few who would respect his choice. I don't see why his religion should be given any particular special treatment on that score, any more than any other explanation for the spiritual.

radelven wrote:Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall be put to death

To be fair to the guy, he's not the kind to pick and choose which parts of the Bible he follows, so let's just say if he does decide to play on a Sunday the opposition loosehead better watch out!

Feck Notch imagine being his roommate and you are playing on Sunday...

Wulliam.

Well said!

Ban Ewan Murray! Ban Sonny Bill and anyone else who puts religion first.

Trimble you can stay.

Down with imaginary friends i say. If I told my boss that i didnt want to work cause my imaginary friend was against it. Id be of to see hr and possibly the works concillor.

leinsterbaby wrote:Ban Ewan Murray! Ban Sonny Bill and anyone else who puts religion first.

Trimble you can stay.

Hey Mercurio you aren't really Richard Dawkins are you? If so can you sign my copy of Selfish gene. Thanks.

Religion has no place in rugby, unless like me you're a die hard Welsh atheist and pray to god every time we take to the field!

Folks, this is a though discussion and its tough to keep to the straight and narrow. The point is about Euan Murray, his opinions and how his beliefs impact his Rugby and Scotland Rugby in particular. To me it has been helpful for Wulliam to frame out his beliefs from a perspective most likely cloise to Murray's.

But, a couple of key points you have all made are important. Firstly, Euan Murray made no secret of his beliefs well before his selection to the Scotland squad. If this is a problem, then Scotland management made a mistake selecting him in the first place. Second, he was not out there pimping his beliefs. He responded honestly to questions asked.

So I wouldn't jump ugly with Euan Murray for this. He has his beliefs. Rugby is a very large, inclusive family. For me, I thoroughly enjoy the Sunday Rugby and a Sunday nip over to a pub. But thats just me.

By greybeard (I think)
'I remember Glen Hoddle getting it in the neck for giving an honest answer about his belief in Karma. He even lost his job. Why was that not seen as a man just being up front about his deeply held beliefs? Why the uproar?'

"If Murray refused to play at a particular time because it blocked his chi, or damaged his aura, or the pitch wasn't correctly aligned with the right ley lines, or he was told not to during a seance then most people would scratch their heads and think "what a mentalist" and there would be few who would respect his choice. I don't see why his religion should be given any particular special treatment on that score, any more than any other explanation for the spiritual."

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Have to say it is difficult to disagree with this sentiment. All beliefs no matter where they come from or how they come about should be respected with equal measure I believe. Alot of people in the western world tend to have much less respect for beliefs and religions from other parts of the world which have actually existed alot longer than alot of western beliefs. Especially beliefs related to energy etc - guess i am thinking about Hinduism in particular here. Many of us (as in ppl from the western world) would simply not believe or contemplate these beliefs to have validity because we have not been aware of them for a long period in our own life. - if that makes sense.

With regards to Murray, I think we all agree that we respect his decision not to play on Sundays and that is fair enough. However, when this turns into something where he appears to be suggesting that he would prefer it if matches weren't played on Sundays then that is a different thing. Even suggesting other people do things differently in todays society he must know amounts to attempting to impose his views. Trouble is, there are too many religions and beliefs out there (many much older than christianity) that should be heard as well if the call of Christianity is going to be heard.

In addition to this, if Murray actually said the whole thing about the word of the bible and tearing pages out if he didnt follow it then that is quite frankly ridiculous becuase no man on earth lives by every rule in the bible including Murray himself.

I should point out though that all of the above (apart from the quote) is my opinion and I am not not trying to impose my views regarding this on anyone.

Irishhoneymonster wrote:By greybeard (I think)
'I remember Glen Hoddle getting it in the neck for giving an honest answer about his belief in Karma. He even lost his job. Why was that not seen as a man just being up front about his deeply held beliefs? Why the uproar?'

"If Murray refused to play at a particular time because it blocked his chi, or damaged his aura, or the pitch wasn't correctly aligned with the right ley lines, or he was told not to during a seance then most people would scratch their heads and think "what a mentalist" and there would be few who would respect his choice. I don't see why his religion should be given any particular special treatment on that score, any more than any other explanation for the spiritual."

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Have to say it is difficult to disagree with this sentiment. All beliefs no matter where they come from or how they come about should be respected with equal measure I believe. Alot of people in the western world tend to have much less respect for beliefs and religions from other parts of the world which have actually existed alot longer than alot of western beliefs. Especially beliefs related to energy etc - guess i am thinking about Hinduism in particular here. We (as in ppl from the western world) would simply not believe or contemplate these beliefs to have validity because we have not been aware of them for a long period in our own life. - if that makes sense.

With regards to Murray, I think we all agree that we respect his decision not to play on Sundays and that is fair enough. However, when this turns into something where he appears to be suggesting that he would prefer it if matches weren't played on Sundays then that is a different thing. Even suggesting other people do things differently in todays society he must know amounts to attempting to impose his views. Trouble is, there are too many religions and beliefs out there (many much older than christianity) that should be heard as well if the call of Christianity is going to be heard.

In addition to this, if Murray actually said the whole thing about the word of the bible and tearing pages out if he didnt follow it then that is quite frankly ridiculous becuase no man on earth lives by every rule in the bible including Murray himself.

I should point out though that all of the above (apart from the quote) is my opinion and I am not not trying to impose my views regarding this on anyone.

Good point..strongly held religious beliefs are stigmatised in a society where the lines between fundamentalism and belief have been blurred...Tony Blair kept his to himself throughout his premiership.

Gatts wrote:

Irishhoneymonster wrote:By greybeard (I think)
'I remember Glen Hoddle getting it in the neck for giving an honest answer about his belief in Karma. He even lost his job. Why was that not seen as a man just being up front about his deeply held beliefs? Why the uproar?'

"If Murray refused to play at a particular time because it blocked his chi, or damaged his aura, or the pitch wasn't correctly aligned with the right ley lines, or he was told not to during a seance then most people would scratch their heads and think "what a mentalist" and there would be few who would respect his choice. I don't see why his religion should be given any particular special treatment on that score, any more than any other explanation for the spiritual."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have to say it is difficult to disagree with this sentiment. All beliefs no matter where they come from or how they come about should be respected with equal measure I believe. Alot of people in the western world tend to have much less respect for beliefs and religions from other parts of the world which have actually existed alot longer than alot of western beliefs. Especially beliefs related to energy etc - guess i am thinking about Hinduism in particular here. We (as in ppl from the western world) would simply not believe or contemplate these beliefs to have validity because we have not been aware of them for a long period in our own life. - if that makes sense.

With regards to Murray, I think we all agree that we respect his decision not to play on Sundays and that is fair enough. However, when this turns into something where he appears to be suggesting that he would prefer it if matches weren't played on Sundays then that is a different thing. Even suggesting other people do things differently in todays society he must know amounts to attempting to impose his views. Trouble is, there are too many religions and beliefs out there (many much older than christianity) that should be heard as well if the call of Christianity is going to be heard.

In addition to this, if Murray actually said the whole thing about the word of the bible and tearing pages out if he didnt follow it then that is quite frankly ridiculous becuase no man on earth lives by every rule in the bible including Murray himself.

I should point out though that all of the above (apart from the quote) is my opinion and I am not not trying to impose my views regarding this on anyone.

Good point..strongly held religious beliefs are stigmatised in a society where the lines between fundamentalism and belief have been blurred...Tony Blair kept his to himself throughout his premiership.

Keeping them to himself and apparently not acting on them are 2 different things though. He acted on something that was quite frankly incorrect. I really hope it wasn't religion. Otherwise we as British people, if you like, are going to be hit even harder in the future when history looks back on the sorry situation that developed when Blair was Prime Minister.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think there is a compromise everybody's missing here. Ban Sundays. Not Sunday matches.

No more Sunday times, no more church for Euan because there will be no more Sundays. We call it Funday. Everybody does what they want to do, no more wars, no more religion.

You may say I´m a dreamer but I´m not the only one. Funday. Imagine...

Best comment I've seen online today

Where is the line drawn? If we don't have matches on Sunday, do we also not play on the Shabbat, so no Friday evening or Saturday matches? Do we make sure games don't clash with Islamic prayer times? With fasting hindering effective training, do we stop rugby during Ramadan, Navrati, the Baha'i 19 day fast and Lent for the Orthodox?

If our scrum creaks against the Pumas on Sunday, and we end up losing the match I'll have Murray crucified...

radelven wrote:Where is the line drawn? If we don't have matches on Sunday, do we also not play on the Shabbat, so no Friday evening or Saturday matches? Do we make sure games don't clash with Islamic prayer times? With fasting hindering effective training, do we stop rugby during Ramadan, Navrati, the Baha'i 19 day fast and Lent for the Orthodox?

There is no line. Rugby is played on Sundays. Your point is well-researched but irrelevant, I'm afraid.

Good idea. Let's have all matches at 2.3 or 3.00 on a Saturday or 7.30 on a Wednesday, bliss.

Irishhoneymonster,

Actually I was saying the exact opposite of that.

red_stag wrote:Same thing Davie. It'll be Sunday morning in Scotland. Sunday night in NZ.

Nope, Saturday night in NZ - depending on the vagaries of daylight saving time NZ is either 11, 12 or 13 hours ahead of the UK

So, if Euan Murray crossed the international dateline on a Sunday, and gained an extra Sunday, does that count as well? Can he play on the second one after observing the first?

The Iranian womens 7's team have managed to navigate the minefield that is Sharia law and play games while still being able to observe the religious requirements. They play in veils and wear long sleeves and leggings. They are completely covered up, as is their wont (or at least, the wont of the men..).

And they've managed to do this without restricting their ability to take part in tournaments. It's possible if you put your mind to it.

And here's what confuses me, Michael Jones is another famous example of a rugby player who refused to work on Sundays, missing some games in the 1987 tournament. Why didn't someone remind him he was an amateur? He wasn't getting paid, it wasn't work.

Michael Jones?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Michael Jones?

Corrected, cheers.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Michael Jones?

Yep Michael Jones. Ian Jones debuted in the '90s.

Michael Jones missed selection for the 1995 RWC because Laurie Mains felt not having him available for one quarter-final was risky

"are you implying that Euan has refused to play in that scenario. I'm not aware of it. If he hasn't then please don't blame him for something he hasn't done. "

Religious person reads something and interprets it incorrectly - the shock and horror of it! Where was the blame from me? Thanks CymroGlan for pointing out the misinterpretation (a favourite religious past time).

"If it was that 'unfortunate' for Scotland then why on earth take him to NZ?? "

As I said he is a good player and the alternatives are not up to his standard therefore it is a gamble by the management to use a good player with professionally incompatible beliefs. It is unfortunate for Scotland to be in that position.

"As for 'fundamentalist/literally taken religion has no place in a professional work environment' - I'm afraid that's just your opinion."

As it is yours to the contrary. As is the bible come to think of it.

This is becoming about religion and not rugby but I find it so sad that so many on this board seem to be of the fundamentalist leaning – I thought we had grown up more as a society. Anyway I’m off to talk to Santa and the Tooth fairy as we are planning an “On the Origin of Species” book burning later.

Kiwireddevil wrote:
A further reminder too folks, remember attacking somone's argument is OK. Attacking the poster isn't.

Thats a pretty good policy for forum posting. Hard to follow sometimes when the heat comes on though.

mcrjfNo7 wrote:I find it so sad that so many on this board seem to be of the fundamentalist leaning – I thought we had grown up more as a society. Anyway I’m off to talk to Santa and the Tooth fairy as we are planning an “On the Origin of Species” book burning later.

To be honest, I don't think they are - most seem happy to respect the man for his beliefs, altho most don't agree with him, but that's as far as it goes