The Jeff:Tigers (and other top sides) fans have every right to growl and grumble

No team gives more to the England cause yet every trap is laid to snare the Tigers (and other top clubs).

Playoffs, EPS payments, and wage caps (irrespective of affordability) and the refusal to suspend the Jeff during the RWC - everything goes against the top sides contributing to the cause.

Look at today's 22 ( pretty much accepted as the best English side available this RWC) :

England
15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
12 Mike Tindall (Gloucester Rugby)
11 Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks)
10 Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
2 Steve Thompson (London Wasps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
5 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
6 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
7 Lewis Moody (Bath Rugby, capt)
8 James Haskell (Ricoh Black Rams)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
18 Simon Shaw (Unattached) [ed: probably Wasps]
19 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
20 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
21 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
22 Delon Armitage (London Irish)

So fact that top clubs are being turned over is a surprise? I don't think so.

It is a disgrace that the Jeff is being played under such unfair conditions.

It's not as though they will be guaranteed to come home fit and able to partake in the HEC and Jeff.

None of the big English contributors are being treated fairly.

It's an effin shambles.

We all have players at the World Cup and/or injured Portnoy. Suck it up man, everyone knew it was coming.

Tigers have a massive squad and financial resources others cannot match.

We all have to deal with putting out weakened sides for reasons of injury and cash flow every year while Tigers bring in medical replacements like Lote Tuqiri rather than chuck in academy players.

We had to bring on a centre for our number 8 today and a 17 year old academy player.

Stop whinging man, you're giving Tigers fans a bad name.

Pete,

You have a league or you don't.

When every means and mechanism is distorted such that the best sides are always disadvantaged like a horse racing handicap.

It could have been arranged to play the LV cup in the duration.

"Stop whinging man, you're giving Tigers fans a bad name.".

Nothing infuriates me more than destabilising a fair contest. I have always been in favour of the best team winning and I'm on record about that.

But there is more than a little engineering of the opportunities on offer.

The reason I'm like is because I like sporting contests - and frankly ever since the playoffs started, we've frequently not.

And just because I hold to my principles, I should not be abused.

Portnoy

There is no such thing as a fair contest. Teams have different means with which to construct their squads which means they are never 'fair' in terms of being a level playing field.

Tigers hold all the aces, and because they are not in their customary position at the top of the tree you are bleating about something that they have had four years to prepare for, claiming that it unfairly disadvantages them.

All teams have lost players, get over it mate.

Portnoy wrote:Nothing infuriates me more than destabilising a fair contest.

So you'll be sending some of your best players to Newcastle and Worcester then? The RWC isn't destabilising a fair contest, it's destabilising the existing power imbalance.

I think it's been an good start to the AP, with loads of future England players on view. As for Leicester, the WC is not an excuse for professional players missing basic tackles. The Tiger's side on paper is still pretty good, it just isn't performing.

I am proud that 6 of that starting XV were developed by Tigers academy.

While it sucks that every year we lose players for key matches, and every 4 years we lose a large number of key players for a large part of the season - if it helps make England a better side then so be it.

I sincerely hope that we are in the top 6 by the end of the season - as failure to make Europe could persuade the management to spend less of the Salary Cap on developing England players.

Portnoy do you also think that matches should be suspended till Tigers stop having injuries?

Also looking at the Tigers side which played on Saturday - it's pretty decent. That Tigers side only lost to a full strength Exeter by 1 point. Only lost to Wasps away by a small margin. Beat a full strength Newcastle away from home. Don't underestimate your side.

Saracens gave Jamie George,Will Fraser and Jackson Wray their first proper start in the AP - 3 academy players. 17/23 were EQ - I count Brad Barritt and Mouritz Botha because they have been capped.

Northampton are missing the same amount of players as Saracens at the world cup. You wouldn't think that looking at the table and results though.

Saints' lack of strength in depth is still there for all to see.

The result at Welford Road also shows that the fringe England players are still lethal.

it's destabilising the existing power imbalance..

Everyone has the same constraints (wage cap), Tigers are merely operating at around 50% of that constraint at the minute whilst others aren't. There isn't normally an imbalance because everyone is limited in terms of their squad spend.

We all have to deal with putting out weakened sides for reasons of injury and cash flow every year while Tigers bring in medical replacements like Lote Tuqiri rather than chuck in academy players.

Tigers can normally afford one injury replacement a year. That is because it is run efficiently as a business and has been for years. The Tigers turnover just covers the expenditure with a bit to spare, there is no wealthy backer.

I would be a lot more worried if I was a Saints than Tigers fan.

Admittedly the Tigers have two particularly tough assignments to come - Bath away, Quins at home.

Saints have lost to sides almost as depleted as themselves bar Quins so cannot complain.

Quins are making the most of it and why not?

I'm sure Bath will give the Tigers an easy game!

I don't think the Jeff should take place at the same time as the world cup, have the clubs offered discounts to season ticket holders seeing as you're not watching the best players? Hmmm I don't think so.

Hersh I don't know about you but I still get to see quality players at Saracens.

The world cup gives opportunity for youngsters to step up to the mark.

The only team that can grumble is Leicester.

Admittedly I won't be happy if we lose to Exeter next week but we should be strong enough regardless of world cup call ups.

I still wonder how Sarries are under the salary cap?

Oh thats it the players are paid through overseas bank accounts!

Hersh I am sure that checks have been made. It would be highly naive of you if you don't think Saracens' accounts have been heavily scrutinised.

If the rules were broken Saracens would have been punished already.

Oh thats it the players are paid through overseas bank accounts!

I thought it was more that some players were paid in foreign currency and that Sarries were cleverly taking advantage of the exchange rates. If that's the case it is rather cunning but certainly not salary cap dodging.

The only team that can grumble is Leicester.

The first two games we can maybe grumble about as we were close to winning and minus a call up/injury or two and that extra player would have seen us win (Julian White would have made a massive difference in the Wasps game for instance). The Sarries game we could have grumbled about missing players and the ref but only if our defence had been decent. You concede 50 points and there is no one to blame and frankly no excuse.

Sam you are very gracious and sporting. Certainly more than Portnoy.

Leicester still have a strong team. Just think you are lacking leadership. Is anyone putting their hands up?

You miss the leadership of the likes of Murphy and Deacon.

The game breaking skills of the Tuilagi bros and Youngs etc.

Leicester will likely still be in the business end of the table by the close of the season.

The unlucky injuries haven't exactly helped things.

There is a distinct lack of leadership at the club right now, hence why George Chuter still starts.

Deacon/Newby/Croft/Crane/Waldrom/Flood/Murphy/Castro are huge in that role.

But the defensive organisation has been poor, as Sam says, for a few years. Last two seasons we had problems defending around the fringes - this year we just look a bit headless in defence.

While Saturday was bad, the tone was set with the first play of the season. Skivington goes up to catch a restart and knocks on. From the scrum the big fijian centre at Exeter causes havoc - we fail to re-align and Chiefs have a try within a minute.

beshocked wrote:Sam you are very gracious and sporting. Certainly more than Portnoy.

Leicester still have a strong team. Just think you are lacking leadership. Is anyone putting their hands up?

You miss the leadership of the likes of Murphy and Deacon.

The game breaking skills of the Tuilagi bros and Youngs etc.

Leicester will likely still be in the business end of the table by the close of the season

The unlucky injuries haven't exactly helped things.

IMO Scott Hamilton should have captained the side during the World cup.Things may get worse for us as Allen went off injured Saturday haven't heard any news on him as of yet??

However there is no excuse for the poor defensive display we shown on Saturday,i think it is the worst i have ever seen at WR.I am not expecting anything from Bath on Saturday and possibly with a lot of hard work perhaps we may get a result against Quins.I have never wished for England to loose as much as i am doing right now!!

Leicester still have a strong team. Just think you are lacking leadership. Is anyone putting their hands up?

The Tigers Captaincy preferal list goes; Murphy (at RWC), Deacon (at RWC), Newby (injured), Crane (injured), Croft (at RWC), Chuter (struggling to keep place in team), Allen (awaiting scan on shoulder) and Hamilton (short of form).

If Julian Salvi is okay after the Owen Farrell cheap shot then he could step up and captain the side, otherwise I don't know the team just seem short of leadership on the field with some of the experienced players kept in to provide that leadership looking short of their best. I'm just hoping we go and experiment a little vs Bath, it's away from home and no one expects us to get a result, go with;

Stanko, Youngs, Holford (or any other tighthead available)
Kitchener, Slater
Mafi, Salvi, Woods
Young, Ford
Allen (c), Twelvetrees
Smith, Tait, Morris

Bench; Harris, Hawkins, Bucknall, Skivington, Armes, Grindal, Staunton, Hamilton.

If Salvi isn't fit then start Armes and bring de Carpienter to the bench.

Portnoy wrote:Pete,

You have a league or you don't.

When every means and mechanism is distorted such that the best sides are always disadvantaged like a horse racing handicap.

It could have been arranged to play the LV cup in the duration.

"Stop whinging man, you're giving Tigers fans a bad name.".

Nothing infuriates me more than destabilising a fair contest. I have always been in favour of the best team winning and I'm on record about that.

But there is more than a little engineering of the opportunities on offer.

The reason I'm like is because I like sporting contests - and frankly ever since the playoffs started, we've frequently not.

And just because I hold to my principles, I should not be abused.

No, you shouldn't be abused but the reality of modern rugby is one in which players can't play every week. It's becoming an incredibly high-intensity game and it's no longer possible for teams to put out their strongest teams every week. There are 22 regular season league games, plus playoffs, 6 Heineken Cup games plus knockout stages and in a World Cup year perhaps 15+ test matches. Even if we put aside the fact that many of these games overlap (the league continues during the World Cup and Six Nations) I think it's simply impossible for a player to put his body through that in a season now.

The problem is that as the number of games has increased, so has the physicality of the game. Both of these are problematic for player welfare. If you want to see a genuine sporting contest, you are most likely to find it in test rugby and the Heineken Cup.

The leagues will suffer. Something has to give. I think this is an issue for all teams. Those with many international players are disadvantaged of course, but they also have the great advantage of having those players available for much of the time as well.

The structure of the NH season is a mess compared to the SH. Even in the SH the increasing number of games is causing problems for them, but I personally think the NH schedule is insanity. Ireland played 4 RWC warm-up matches, will play between 4 and 7 World Cup games, 5 Six Nations games and then a three-test tour! There are players who will barely be allowed to play in the Pro12 for their provinces at all. That could be as many as 19 test matches. Of course they can't play every week for their province, the human body has limits.

Notch wrote:The structure of the NH season is a mess compared to the SH.

+1

Maybe the answer is a single European domestic competition. We've discussed before on old 606 how that could work with conferences followed by playoffs like the NFL. It could be played in full and then followed by the 6 Nations. But I can't see how you could get the French to give up their beloved Top 14 for instance. And I'd say most people would be against moving the 6 Nations to a different time of year after such a long tradition of playing it in crap conditions.

The entire southern hemisphere season is constructed to in a tiered way with the Tri Nations as the climax. For the record I'd like the European pro rugby season to be played at the same time as the southern season. We'd get better rugby if it was played in the summer. But none of this will ever happen. The European rugby unions are far to conservative to bring in dramatic changes like this.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:The structure of the NH season is a mess compared to the SH.

+1

Maybe the answer is a single European domestic competition. We've discussed before on old 606 how that could work with conferences followed by playoffs like the NFL. It could be played in full and then followed by the 6 Nations. But I can't see how you could get the French to give up their beloved Top 14 for instance. And I'd say most people would be against moving the 6 Nations to a different time of year after such a long tradition of playing it in crap conditions.

The entire southern hemisphere season is constructed to in a tiered way with the Tri Nations as the climax. For the record I'd like the European pro rugby season to be played at the same time as the southern season. We'd get better rugby if it was played in the summer. But none of this will ever happen. The European rugby unions are far to conservative to bring in dramatic changes like this.

the summerisation of the season is an anathema to me. Part of the beauty for me of rugby in its current 'winter' season is that from September - May you have the full range of surfaces, weather etc. It is essential that rugby is played in all conditions (like the current RWC) else risk the hot, dry supernations (SA and Oz) to dominate in perpetuity.

Maybe you're right about the merits of playing rugby in all conditions. No need to worry anyway Portnoy. The season will never be moved. I think a type of Euro League could happen the if TV money men want to make it so. It could be an opportunity to clean up the European schedule.

But for now, here's a question. Why does the World Cup fit perfectly into the Southern season, while playing havoc with the Northern one? I'd genuinely like to know it there's a reasonable answer.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Maybe you're right about the merits of playing rugby in all conditions. No need to worry anyway Portnoy. The season will never be moved. I think a type of Euro League could happen the if TV money men want to make it so. It could be an opportunity to clean up the European schedule.

But for now, here's a question. Why does the World Cup fit perfectly into the Southern season, while playing havoc with the Northern one? I'd genuinely like to know it there's a reasonable answer.

https://www.606v2.com/t12325-rwcs-is-the-tail-wagging-the-dog-a-bit

Maybe I should title my posts more explicitly.

Those with many international players are disadvantaged of course, but they also have the great advantage of having those players available for much of the time as well.

Well not really in a normal season an England international will miss about a third of the season and a home nations player just a touch less. Italy are now playing AI games as are Argentina which means that more teams are missing more players for more of the season. It's getting like sodding cricket. Currently the best investments for clubs are SANZAR players because if they come north they'll be ignored and the team gets them for the full season. Cockerill has come out and said that he is thinking of going foreign with his recruitment and several other AP teams have already gone down that route. The RFU and the other home nations are killing their own national teams through their own greed. Why bother developing a talented youngster when he will end up costing more than a NZ journeyman who will be available for more of the season.

Feckless Rogue your little plan wouldn't work.

There are 12 English clubs. 14 French ones. You really think we want to disband a few of them,join them together or relegate some? No.

It wouldn't work. Plus there is the HC to consider.

And no club/business will vote for fewer matches and hence less turnover. Otherwise in England we could move to a 10 team top division and scrap the LV cup.

This would allow better rest periods, no games during internationals, and a competitive second division.

But we would have less income.



Thus I still support reducing the base salary cap to say £2.5mill. Then allowing clubs to spend more for every player they have in the EPS, with smaller extensions for players in the U20 and Saxons squads. This would necessitate the Central pot being split based on England players produced - something that the clubs (well enough of them) voted against when opting for even splits.

"Beat a full strength Newcastle away from home"

Oh come....my local club side Percy Park in North Shields could beat the Falcons at the moment!

The silver lining of the Scots early RWC exit is that the Falcons get Ewan Murray back!

I wonder why the supporters of the richer clubs think they are the only ones to lose players to the RWC?

Geordiefalcon you were saying? Congratulations on your win against Wasps and thanks! I predicted you to win on sportguru.

Trailape I am very pleased because all our players bar Smit, Stevens and Wigglesworth will be back now.

1 player compared to 8 is a huge difference. You wouldn't know we had lost any players though! Certainly if you looked at our team and the table!


Poor Saints

Beshocked,

we actually had two away - we've a Samoan, he's due back as well.

I think for us pondlife teams there's wry smile when we see this sort of 'OMG we've lost all our best players to the RWC!' - we don't tend to lose people to international sides - ours go to other clubs and then come back and score tries against us! I think if the Tigers fans saw their international contingent lining up against them on a Saturday in the Jeff they would feel a tad gloomy!

The bright light at the end of the tunnel is that they'll come back - we have not got that - although I think if Murray can show his Scottish form in the Jeff I think his contribution to our cause will be as crucial, good props don't grow on trees (found under rocks aren't they?).

I just find Portnoy funny. We have had 8 players at the world cup. I am definitely not grumbling! We are in a very rosy position. The guys in New Zealand have helped raise the profile of our club too.

You should blame Tigers. They are the ones using you as a feeder club. How many is it now? 5? Tait,Young,Flood,Brookes,Woods. Are there more?

Murray won't be lining up vs us -our match is on a Sunday.

You need a sugardaddy to pump some money in.

beshocked wrote:I just find Portnoy funny. We have had 8 players at the world cup. I am definitely not grumbling! We are in a very rosy position. The guys in New Zealand have helped raise the profile of our club too.

You should blame Tigers. They are the ones using you as a feeder club. How many is it now? 5? Tait,Young,Flood,Brookes,Woods. Are there more?

Murray won't be lining up vs us -our match is on a Sunday.

You need a sugardaddy to pump some money in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/30/leicester-tigers-turnover-record

Money doesn't apparently appear to be the cause of the malaise.

TrailApe wrote: good props don't grow on trees (found under rocks aren't they?).

Bridges.

Portnoy don't let your head swell too much. Yes yes Leicester are amazing. No one can beat a full strength Leicester team. You keep ramming it down our throats that Tigers are missing players. We know!

Judging by Saturday's performance you aren't missing much. In particular Youngs and Cole had very poor games. Not as bad as Wilkinson but that would have been difficult.

good'un Greybeard!

In particular Youngs and Cole had very poor games.

I thought Cole had an excellent game, not helped by the fact that Stevens was giving away penalties and folding at most scrums. The penalty Cole conceded came from the Scottish wheeling the scrum. As soon as Corbisiero came on Cole absolutely mullered his opposite number. Castro was doing the business vs Ireland as well, so much so cheap shots were coming in. I still fail to see the difference between Ferris's hit on Castro and Armitage's hit on Paterson.

Sam I know you are a Leicester fan but come on! Cole folded as many times. Both were poor. Also Cole offers nothing in the loose.

Funny you don't mention Youngs. I presume your silence means you accept Youngs was absolutely hopeless?

Don't think I am just critical of Leicester players. Stevens didn't have a great time in the scrum. Wilkinson was abysmal - especially his decision making. Tindall was completely ineffectual etc.

Cole was better than Stevens in the tight (not hard on Saturday I accept) trundled with the ball a couple of times and made his tackles. He was not great, but not bad either.

Of course if he accepts the £300k salary offered he will be a Sarrie next year, so perhaps you need to get used to seeing Stevens and Cole packing down together.


Youngs was really struggling to get the ball out of the breakdown, mainly due to bad clearing out by England forwards, and hands/legs all over the place from Scotland. Haskells inability to control the ball at the back of scrums does not help. When this happens his decision making is not as good as it should be. He did not have a good game - he also seemed a little subdued - perhaps because of the gameplan.

Funny you don't mention Youngs. I presume your silence means you accept Youngs was absolutely hopeless?

I don't think he was hopeless but he didn't offer much to talk about did he. There was little platform and his passes were rushed. Really not his best game and the partnership of him and Wilko should be shelved immeadiatley, they just don't work together and if you're half backs aren't on the same wave length then you won't get far.

Of course if he accepts the £300k salary offered he will be a Sarrie next year

If he's got any sense he'll turn down Sarries and Gloucester and stay at Tigers where he gets plenty of big match game time but also plenty of rest time which keeps him injury free. His scrummaging is very good (watch the replays the folds come from Stevens) and he does plenty of the tight work but not a lot of carrying (or none as you say against Scotland) so not sure whether he'd be a great fit for Sarries who love their fast kick chase and their counter attacking game. Cole suits Tigers more structured possession game as he hasn't got the pace to chase the ball up and down the park. If Sarries were splashing the cash I'd have though Ayerza was more up their street, extremely mobile and with Stevens at tighthead and Brits at hooker that would be a frontrow capable of covering the park like a backrow.

Loving the Tigers fans bigging up Cole and slating Stevens. They were equally poor on Saturday. Both are quality players, but both failed to get to grips with there direct opponent this time out.

Fine if Cole and Youngs are so rubbish acan we have them back please?

I notivce the Irish did their level best to murder Castro too.

The Jeff is a joke this season, just athe the Tri Nations and PN cups were.
The world cup isnt good for rugby.

Funny how it only seems to be Tigers fans who think the AP is a joke this season. You fellas do understand that you don't have some divine right to win all the time right?

Funny how it only seems to be Tigers fans who think the AP is a joke this season. You fellas do understand that you don't have some divine right to win all the time right?

We don't consider it a joke hence the annoyance that we are hamstrung for the opening 6 weeks of the season. 21 players missing on Saturday and 11 were at the RWC. You can say silly things like this levels out the teams but it doesn't but what it does do is severly damages the financial stability of the sides that contain the most England internationals. Multiple losses equals smaller crowds and a tougher time qualifying for the HEC and play offs. Tigers are a limited company and should we suffer losses from this season we'll have to bare them, there's no wealthy backer to come to our rescue. Yet the RFU and the PRL are more than happy that the England team are winning (Tigers Toby Flood comes on and sparks the winning move) and that Welford Rd and through Tigers links with City the King Power will be full at the next RWC generating income for all of the clubs and the RFU.

Londontiger is that what has been offered? I don't think he will come to us. If he does great but if not that's fine too. How much does he currently get? We will probably need a very high quality tight head soon as Nieto is retiring. Difficult to see Cole leave you though.

I personally wasn't impressed by either player so don't think I am just tiger bashing. They are both good players who I think on the day were outscrummaged overall. Maybe Stevens was more to blame than Cole but Cole was also penalised too.

Youngs was too lazy in my opinion. He made no effort to dig the ball out. Some of his passes were appalling - almost at head height. Didn't one get intercepted? His best game by far was against Argentina when he came on.

Wigglesworth got slated for his performance against Argentina yet he has faced the same problems. The England backrow are not adequately protecting the scrum half.

Personally of course I am biased would start Wigglesworth against France but bring on Youngs with 20-25 minutes to go. Youngs is at his best against tired legs. He can up the tempo and put the French to bed.

England were very subdued overall in my opinion. Manu Tuilagi played well though, with Armitage he was one of the best English backs.

The gameplan was poor. The England team lacked leadership and confidence in my opinion.

Wilkinson in particular made poor decisions. England should have pressed for more tries as it was evident - certainly in the 2nd half that England had the upperhand with ball in hand. We scored our only try of the game when we backed ourselves.

We have to play with confidence against the French as they are not as limited in attack as the Scots.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler Cole and Youngs are of course very good players but they had a bad day at the office.

Sam you can't blame the RFU for your numerous injuries. It is simply bad luck. Or is it perhaps Cockerill's training methods?Of course it's tough for Tigers but you will bounce back.

It's just annoying that Portnoy comes out with the same excuses every single time.

Or is it perhaps Cockerill's training methods?

Number of contact training sessions and pre season games were cut this year, Cockerill made a point of bringing it up in the local media when fans questioned the lack of fixtures before the season started. He was concerned about an injury crisis. Not helped by Tait pulling a groin muscle on the warm up to his debut and both White and Brookes getting injured vs Newcastle. No, I'm saying that the current layout is inflexible to teams that generate a large number of internationals and arguing to people that claim this helps the status quo that in fact it doesn't.

Personally of course I am biased would start Wigglesworth against France but bring on Youngs with 20-25 minutes to go. Youngs is at his best against tired legs.

I disagree that Youngs is at his best when playing against tired legs. He can't, however, shine in a slow tempo game and that is what Wilko prefers. If Johnno wants to start Wilko then I agree Wigglesworth should start as well. If Flood is starting then I'd start Youngs as he is far more at home with Flood's flat attacking game. Some of Wilko's positioning was miles away and Youngs was clearly struggling to get the ball to him cleanly which was stupid, if you're scrum half is struggling to get clean ball and get it to you, then you have to come in closer as a 10, no point watching him struggle.

Sam that's the difficulty we have.

I wouldn't pick Wilkinson or Youngs but obviously Youngs works best with Flood. None of the half backs have really been in great form though in my opinion.

I expect MJ to pick Youngs and Flood. He will not pick Wilkinson.

You don't think he is at his best vs tired legs? I do. When Wigglesworth came on England scored. It's much easier for a scrum half coming on.

Youngs works better if the England pack is on top, whereas Wigglesworth is better when they aren't. The England pack hasn't really being performing consistently.

The way I see it - Wigglesworth has a better pass,is a better kicker, better defender and better organiser. He is more structured. On the other hand Youngs is more of a threat to defences with his sniping runs, when his pack is on top he is much more of a threat than Wigglesworth. Youngs likes to play at a higher tempo.

In my opinion Youngs struggles when his pack is under the cosh, he doesn't like being under pressure. I can give you examples if you want.

Youngs normally plays behind a dominant Leicester pack remember.

No scrum half likes to be under pressure and all struggle when they are, remember the few minutes Wigglesworth played against Wales before going off injured? He was all over the place when under pressure. It depends heavilly on the type of game you are trying to play and who is the ten. I'd certainly have no issues with either starting as long as the scrum half/fly half combo was the correct one.

I think Flood has shown good form since the RWC started even if his form prior to the start of the competition was rather ropey. I think he had a tough time sorting out his kicking and that was effecting his confidence (thank you Mr Dave Alred). I'd probabley start him because if nothing else he is at least kicking the points and in knock out rugby that will make a difference.

beshocked wrote:Sam that's the difficulty we have.

I wouldn't pick Wilkinson or Youngs but obviously Youngs works best with Flood. None of the half backs have really been in great form though in my opinion.

I expect MJ to pick Youngs and Flood. He will not pick Wilkinson.

You don't think he is at his best vs tired legs? I do. When Wigglesworth came on England scored. It's much easier for a scrum half coming on.

Youngs works better if the England pack is on top, whereas Wigglesworth is better when they aren't. The England pack hasn't really being performing consistently.

The way I see it - Wigglesworth has a better pass,is a better kicker, better defender and better organiser. He is more structured. On the other hand Youngs is more of a threat to defences with his sniping runs, when his pack is on top he is much more of a threat than Wigglesworth. Youngs likes to play at a higher tempo.

In my opinion Youngs struggles when his pack is under the cosh, he doesn't like being under pressure. I can give you examples if you want.

Youngs normally plays behind a dominant Leicester pack remember.

Not 100% on this, but wasn't stevens subbed around the same time. Our pack seemed to improve, possibly giving wigglesworth a better platform?