The Jeff:Tigers (and other top sides) fans have every right to growl and grumble

First topic message reminder :

No team gives more to the England cause yet every trap is laid to snare the Tigers (and other top clubs).

Playoffs, EPS payments, and wage caps (irrespective of affordability) and the refusal to suspend the Jeff during the RWC - everything goes against the top sides contributing to the cause.

Look at today's 22 ( pretty much accepted as the best English side available this RWC) :

England
15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
12 Mike Tindall (Gloucester Rugby)
11 Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks)
10 Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
2 Steve Thompson (London Wasps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
5 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
6 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
7 Lewis Moody (Bath Rugby, capt)
8 James Haskell (Ricoh Black Rams)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
18 Simon Shaw (Unattached) [ed: probably Wasps]
19 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
20 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
21 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
22 Delon Armitage (London Irish)

So fact that top clubs are being turned over is a surprise? I don't think so.

It is a disgrace that the Jeff is being played under such unfair conditions.

It's not as though they will be guaranteed to come home fit and able to partake in the HEC and Jeff.

None of the big English contributors are being treated fairly.

It's an effin shambles.

Nathan my point is that some Leicester fans seem to enjoy having one's cake and eating it too. Yes Portnoy I am looking at you

The England situation is a perfect example.

They say if we had our England players.....

Wigglesworth took a pasting for his performance against Argentina yet he was given the same rubbish protection by the pack that Youngs got for Scotland. Is it a surprise both scrum halves looked better when coming on late in the game? I think Wigglesworth performed better under immense pressure than Youngs though neither obviously shone.

If the pack isn't going to give their scrum half good ball I personally would rather have the more structured scrum half which is Wigglesworth.

Nathan, I'd have said Palmer really boosted the English pack, in particular their performance on your own lineouts

Corbs came on and steadied the scrum very well, the lineout from which the try came (via a phase or two) had been working well all game. Just took Flood to come on and decide to use it rather than Johnny taking another kick at goal to create the opportunity. Certainly an off the top lineout in the Scottish 22 wasn't given to Youngs as that's the sort of play from which he flourishes.

The official stats show:

England – Lineouts won on own throw/stolen on opo throw:
Deacon – 4/0
Lawes – 1/0
Croft – 4/1
Haskell – 2/0
Palmer – 1/0

Scotland – same:
Gray – 3/1
Kellock – 0/1
Vernon – 4/0
Rennie – 1/0
Blair – 1/0

Slightly surprised as I thought the Scots were in command at the lineout far more than the stats suggest – ah well, just me hallucinating again!

Sam MJ will pick Youngs anyway.

If by a miracle Wigglesworth is picked by MJ I have to renounce all my former calls of Leicester bias.

If he does pick Youngs as expected.....

Of course the playoffs in 'normal' years are necessary because of the International windows (which they aren't) as there are enough weeks in the season.

And of course in RWC years the Jeff can't be padded by the likes of the LV and the like.

No.

Everything in the PRL/Jeff is tilted against the sides that contribute the most to English rugby.

Please nominate your eight Saracens players lost to the RWC and matches played. It won't shape up to much compared with the East Midlands clubs...

Portnoy most of our players haven't been benchwarming or been banned. Admittedly that's the Saints boys.

Jacques Burger - the Namibian captain has played every game for Namibia.
Hayden Smith - American lock has played every game for USA. I think the only one to.
Chris Wyles - American FB has played 2 and a bit I believe. Would have played all if not injured for Ireland game.
Kelly Brown - 3 full games. Missed the England game because of concussion.
John Smit - been involved in all SA games I believe.
Michael Tagicakibau - one game I believe.
Matt Stevens - started 2, replacement in 2 I believe.
Richard Wigglesworth - started one, replacement in 2.

Let's say they were involved in 26 matches.

By all means check if you want.

The likes of Hartley,Wood and Lawes have been well used to bans and bench warming.

Saints have woeful strength in depth. That's their fault.

beshocked wrote:Sam MJ will pick Youngs anyway.

If by a miracle Wigglesworth is picked by MJ I have to renounce all my former calls of Leicester bias.

If he does pick Youngs as expected.....

Right and if Stevens plays for England again i think we 'll all know the Saracens bias is in full effect!

Peter seabiscuit wheeler he won't pick Stevens.Why would he?

Also MJ is a Leicester man.

Beshocked I think he meant how many games would they be expected to play for the Sarries first team. For example Wyles whilst a regular around the first team is the second choice full back, Smith is they 4th choice lock? etc.

Not sure I agree as most teams has been hit badly (Tigers easily the worst) but Tigers can't complain that much when the defence is that bad...

beshocked wrote:Portnoy most of our players haven't been benchwarming or been banned. Admittedly that's the Saints boys.

Jacques Burger - the Namibian captain has played every game for Namibia.
Hayden Smith - American lock has played every game for USA. I think the only one to.
Chris Wyles - American FB has played 2 and a bit I believe. Would have played all if not injured for Ireland game.
Kelly Brown - 3 full games. Missed the England game because of concussion.
John Smit - been involved in all SA games I believe.
Michael Tagicakibau - one game I believe.
Matt Stevens - started 2, replacement in 2 I believe.
Richard Wigglesworth - started one, replacement in 2.

Let's say they were involved in 26 matches.

By all means check if you want.

The likes of Hartley,Wood and Lawes have been well used to bans and bench warming.

Saints have woeful strength in depth. That's their fault.

So that is a full complement of two Sarries English players. (the other mercenaries don't count for me and that includes the 5-6 Tigers imports).

The clubs that contribute most to the English cause get penalised the most in the Jeff.

Playoffs prevent a full contest outside IWs.

EPS payments get distributed evenly irrespective of contribution.

No window in the Jeff in RWC years.

p.s. I thought that Smit was to be signed after the RWC.

beshocked wrote:Peter seabiscuit wheeler he won't pick Stevens.Why would he?

Also MJ is a Leicester man.

You see this is what i don't get. So because MJ is from Leicester he's going to favour Leicester? It's not because Leicester have been at the top for so many years?

Just because Saracens won the Jeff last year doesn't mean the england team should be made up of their players.

If they don't count Portnoy then you are an imbecile. They are part of our team so affect the strength.

You can't beat us at full strength anyway. Or I suppose you never are full strength when you lose.

Nathan as a bare minimum we should have at least one more representative in the England team.

It is the fact he is a Leicester man. You can make your own assumptions. Is Waldrom the best choice as a replacement no 8? No. Why was Fourie picked? The Leicester connection.

I don't mind picking players who deserve it like Manu Tuilagi,Croft,Flood etc. It's the mediocre ageing foreign journeyman MJ picks which annoy me.

It really does not matter who gets selected for England or by whom.

The point is that Jeff games should not be played whilst English International matches are being contested.

Like in football really.

In cricket they have central contracts. As do other rugby nations who have no worry about domestic sides' relegation.

Cockerill has expressed a thought that he should consider buying in more mercenaries.

That would be great for English rugby wouldn't it?

beshocked wrote:If they don't count Portnoy then you are an imbecile. They are part of our team so affect the strength.

You can't beat us at full strength anyway. Or I suppose you never are full strength when you lose.

Nathan as a bare minimum we should have at least one more representative in the England team.

It is the fact he is a Leicester man. You can make your own assumptions. Is Waldrom the best choice as a replacement no 8? No. Why was Fourie picked? The Leicester connection.

I don't mind picking players who deserve it like Manu Tuilagi,Croft,Flood etc. It's the mediocre ageing foreign journeyman MJ picks which annoy me.

But that's the thing right there, It's all your biased opinion. You've made that clear numerous times in past posts. Who else is there at number 8?

Dowson,Narraway,Gray,Wray,Guest,Morgan. Anyone but yet another NZ journeyman.

It's your biased opinion that Waldrom is the correct choice too.

Cockerill has expressed a thought that he should consider buying in more mercenaries.

That would be great for English rugby wouldn't it?

Well it might be good for the clubs of lower staus who bring good young players through their academies only to have them head for the richer clubs.

Yes - buy your mercenaries and stop poaching otherr peoples academies.

Is Waldrom the best choice as a replacement no 8? No. Why was Fourie picked? The Leicester connection.

Waldrom was selected on form at the end of last season and has already spent time with the squad. Gray is 18 and not nearly good enough yet, Narraway is injured, Guest is injured, Wray the Sarries prospect? not a chance, Morgan declares for Wales as soon as he is able and Dowson is plum out of form and playing on the flank. So in fact he was about the only option available especially with Crane out injured as well.

Fourie's Leicester connection? He's played for Rotherham, Leeds and now Sale. The only connection being that he was coached by Back who played with Johnno but then again Gustard at Sarries played with Johnno as did West at Saints.

EPS payments get distributed evenly irrespective of contribution.

They are smoothed but not even. Everyone gets something but Tigers as the team that contributes most gets a bigger slice than say Sarries will. It's not all of the payment that is in theory allotted to them but it is most of it.

beshocked wrote:If they don't count Portnoy then you are an imbecile. They are part of our team so affect the strength.

You can't beat us at full strength anyway. Or I suppose you never are full strength when you lose.

Nathan as a bare minimum we should have at least one more representative in the England team.

It is the fact he is a Leicester man. You can make your own assumptions. Is Waldrom the best choice as a replacement no 8? No. Why was Fourie picked? The Leicester connection.

I don't mind picking players who deserve it like Manu Tuilagi,Croft,Flood etc. It's the mediocre ageing foreign journeyman MJ picks which annoy me.

You know what? I don't mind losing. I like the best team to win. And even if that's my team I might look like a grandma that just sucked on a lemon, but I go with it.

All I'm asking for is to compete on equal terms throughout the season. Full available squads outside International windows and suspend the Jeff for the duration of RWCs.

It might require one or two midweek games over the season but hey!

Sam that's rubbish. Why do these foreign journeyman get fast tracked into the England squad after only one season? Whereas it's generally the actual English players who find it much harder to get their shot - even the likes of Ashton and Foden.

Waldrom spent time with the squad because MJ is enchanted by overrated journeyman. He didn't even start his club as first choice. Doesn't matter though.

I personally wouldn't pick him. Not because he is a Leicester player. It's because he is a New Zealander reject and not one of the good ones either!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/leeds/8733798.stm

Neil Back made it very clear to MJ he wanted his man in the England squad. MJ pulled the strings for his buddy.

You don't see Paul Gustard trying to influence MJ.

Portnoy to be on equal terms you should give some of your players to other clubs. Leicester will never be equal to the likes of Newcastle,Worcester etc.

I am sure Newcastle in particular would appreciate the sentiment.

beshocked wrote:Sam that's rubbish. Why do these foreign journeyman get fast tracked into the England squad after only one season? Whereas it's generally the actual English players who find it much harder to get their shot - even the likes of Ashton and Foden.

Waldrom spent time with the squad because MJ is enchanted by overrated journeyman. He didn't even start his club as first choice. Doesn't matter though.

I personally wouldn't pick him. Not because he is a Leicester player. It's because he is a New Zealander reject and not one of the good ones either!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/leeds/8733798.stm

Neil Back made it very clear to MJ he wanted his man in the England squad. MJ pulled the strings for his buddy.

You don't see Paul Gustard trying to influence MJ.

Portnoy to be on equal terms you should give some of your players to other clubs. Leicester will never be equal to the likes of Newcastle,Worcester etc.

I am sure Newcastle in particular would appreciate the sentiment.

a
Affordability beshocked. Some teams have to let go players because they have to because of the wage caps irrespective of their capability to pay. Some clubs have to let people go because they need to balance the books.

Seems that the entirely affordable Twelvetrees, Cole and Manu are being enticed off.

A bugger. After having had to let Moods and Vesty to keep the go that's a disappointment.

Tigers should probably recruit externally and keep the players' accommodation expenses out of sight.

Portnoy I doubt any of those three will leave despite interest.

Vesty and Moody aren't a massive loss for you though.

Portnoy to be on equal terms you should give some of your players to other clubs. Leicester will never be equal to the likes of Newcastle,Worcester etc.

Why not? All have their own grounds and the same limits on player spend. Tigers aren't allowed to spend vast sums more money than everyone else they can't just rock up and sign the entire Newcastle team. They cherry pick, as do every club, the best players available for the salary budget they have left. Tigers are reknownedly poor payers they rely on players being swayed by the facilities and opportunities playing for Tigers leads to. A good number of the players Tigers sign are players either on a lull in a promising career or players about which very little is known. There's been no big signings for a few years.

Neil Back made it very clear to MJ he wanted his man in the England squad. MJ pulled the strings for his buddy.

because of course that is how the England selection works, I doubt Backie was particularly keen to have his best player go on international duty in a relegation dog fight either. If that was the case they'd be less Tigers in the squad as Cockers would be telling Johnno to ease up on selecting his players. Cockers has been in the media saying he believes Allen is good enough for international recognition, that made no difference (sadly). Fourie and Waldrom were taken into the squad as Johnno was after line breakers to add to his backline, neither offered quite what he was after and so were returned to their clubs.

Seems that the entirely affordable Twelvetrees, Cole and Manu are being enticed off

Manu is going nowhere he has a three year contract (his brother was miss-quoted). The other two have offers on the table from other clubs if you believe the rumours.

Had to pay for Cole (who reportedly Sarries can afford) and Youngs and Manu and Twelvetrees. How much are those worth apiece?

And stick that number into a calculator and divide into £4.2 m.

Affordability should proportionate to income. Not other competitors.

Cole, Ayerza and Twelvetrees all need new contracts at the end of the season. Luckily the salary cap is due to change and so Castro will be made our 'star player' and so will not count towards the salary cap meaning an extra £300 to £350k (depending on which rumour is true) will become available to strengthen the squad and hopefully a £100k wage rise will keep Cole on board (he isn't on much having signed his last contract before breaking into the team) and the rest will go into keeping the likes of Ayerza and Twelvetrees on longer contracts.

You shouldn't be worrying then. The likes of Twelvetrees and Cole will be staying with you and everything will be well with the world.

You are still capable of reaching the playoffs.

Portnoy wrote:It really does not matter who gets selected for England or by whom.

The point is that Jeff games should not be played whilst English International matches are being contested.

Like in football really.

In cricket they have central contracts. As do other rugby nations who have no worry about domestic sides' relegation.

Cockerill has expressed a thought that he should consider buying in more mercenaries.

That would be great for English rugby wouldn't it?

Well at least that might stop him pillaging Newcastle

[quote="Portnoy"]

beshocked wrote:

You know what? I don't mind losing. I like the best team to win. And even if that's my team I might look like a grandma that just sucked on a lemon, but I go with it.

All I'm asking for is to compete on equal terms throughout the season. Full available squads outside International windows and suspend the Jeff for the duration of RWCs.

It might require one or two midweek games over the season but hey!

no, it's not, you want to pick an choose which bits you consider make for "equal terms" - you're more than happy to ignore the inequity of P-share distribution and nonsense ground qualifications

nonsense ground qualifications

Are you refering to the Premiership qualification criteria because if so that is the biggest load of ar$e going.

Well at least that might stop him pillaging Newcastle.

because no Tigers players go on to play for any other club, Tigers are just steadily signing up every player in the league.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:It really does not matter who gets selected for England or by whom.

The point is that Jeff games should not be played whilst English International matches are being contested.

Like in football really.

In cricket they have central contracts. As do other rugby nations who have no worry about domestic sides' relegation.

Cockerill has expressed a thought that he should consider buying in more mercenaries.

That would be great for English rugby wouldn't it?

Well at least that might stop him pillaging Newcastle

True.

But there again no club fishes the pond of cheap catches (whether local or national) in the English pond?

Sam, does that mean you agree with the daft ground qualifications with different rules applying to the top table vs aspiring championship sides?

Letting go of marginal players (Vesty) and those coming towards the end of their career (Moody) is IN NO WAY the same as regularly pillaging another club of their best and most promising assets?

Portnoy wrote:

True.

But there again no club fishes the pond of cheap catches (whether local or national) in the English pond?

any chance of a translation?

If you win the championship you should get be allowed in the AP regardless of how big your ground is.

Our ground is a dump, much worse than Exeter's. I definitely can't begrudge any club the right to be in the AP based on ground quality and size.

I never really thought about it but which young Leicester players have other clubs signed?

Portnoy has decided to speak like Yoda today.

[quote="AsLongAsBut100ofUs"]

Portnoy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

You know what? I don't mind losing. I like the best team to win. And even if that's my team I might look like a grandma that just sucked on a lemon, but I go with it.

All I'm asking for is to compete on equal terms throughout the season. Full available squads outside International windows and suspend the Jeff for the duration of RWCs.

It might require one or two midweek games over the season but hey!

no, it's not, you want to pick an choose which bits you consider make for "equal terms" - you're more than happy to ignore the inequity of P-share distribution and nonsense ground qualifications

I Only want to see Prem games non-concurrent with England games. That is all.

Plus I have never expressed an opinion (v1 or v2) that ground establishment should be a pre-requisite.

What I have proposed is:

Promoted sides should be exempted from relegation in the first year as long as they have fulfilled 50% of their physical ground development promises
over a three-year building plan.

Off the top of my head; Matt Everard is currently at Wasps, Hemmingway signed for Leeds in the summer, Tom Ryder was at Sarries not long ago and Grindal left for Newcastle.

Letting go of marginal players (Vesty) and those coming towards the end of their career (Moody) is IN NO WAY the same as regularly pillaging another club of their best and most promising assets?.

Don't think we really wanted to part with either, especially not Moody. However, when Bath rock up with 3+ year contracts and better money than we can afford because of the salary cap then there's nothing Tigers could do about it. The contract they offered Moody was massive considering he is away with England for a third of the season and has a hideous record with injuries. They bettered what he was on at Tigers and then guarenteed that for four years. Cockerill had to respond to the disappointed fans and in his words we'd have had to lose one of Croft or Crane in order to keep Moody on what Bath were offering.

I have to say, it is making me chuckle immensely reading the Tigers fans grumblings about how unfair it all is.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I have to say, it is making me chuckle immensely reading the Tigers fans grumblings about how unfair it all is.

Why Morse?

Certain leading clubs have formed the very basis of the success of the Jeff whilst almost every measure supported and carried by the PRL/RFU has passed in order to favour the clubs that aren't successful.

Whenever I've met you, you never struck me as a Maxist/Leninist. In fact I'd say that I would have been nearer to that than you.

At some point some of the shackles have to be removed and the kettling of the successful doesn't help in the long-term interests of either the Jeff nor HEC success nor England Rugby.

What you are basically saying Portnoy, is you want the Ap played only when there are no internationals being played solely because Tigers provide more international players than other teams and by playing it when they are all available to Tigers ensures that Tigers will be near the top and qualify for the Heino.

You then want the Salary cap increased so that Tigers can then compete with the French and Irish in Europe.

That is what ultimately you are saying you want. Yet you try to disguise this by claiming that all you are asking for is a level playing field. That is not what you want. Tigers are at an advantage the majority of the time due to their well earned reputation and continued success being part of a package that appeals to good players, who leave the club that has help to make them to go to play at Welford Road. Then, once every 4 years when the World Cup hits this advantage becomes a disadvantage as they lose more players for a longer period.

Well, quite frnakly for me, that is tough. You can't have all of the cake, all of the time, and the continued moaning about how unfair it all is does make me chuckle.

Leicester will make the play offs, of that I have no doubt, but if they don't, it will be because over the course of a 22 game season, they were not good enough, not because there was anything unfair or underhand about the way the season is structured.

Then, once every 4 years when the World Cup hits this advantage becomes a disadvantage as they lose more players for a longer period.

We lose a good portion for about a third of the season normally anyway due to 6N and the AIs I think the general constination is that there is very little Tigers or any of the teams heavilly effected can do to minimise the effect of this and we have to wonder why the RWC impacts heavilly on the NH season and barely touches the SH season. The RFU are still living in the amatuer days and the PRL resembles a squabbling mess where little gets done, I think there is less moaning about the predicament Tigers are in, as said above I don't think we are in a position to moan whilst our defence is that bad, but more the complaints are being levelled at the organisation or lack there of. Well it is on my part anyway.

Ozzy3213 wrote:What you are basically saying Portnoy, is you want the Ap played only when there are no internationals being played solely because Tigers provide more international players than other teams and by playing it when they are all available to Tigers ensures that Tigers will be near the top and qualify for the Heino.*

You then want the Salary cap increased so that Tigers can then compete with the French and Irish in Europe.**

That is what ultimately you are saying you want. Yet you try to disguise this by claiming that all you are asking for is a level playing field. That is not what you want. Tigers are at an advantage the majority of the time due to their well earned reputation and continued success being part of a package that appeals to good players, who leave the club that has help to make them to go to play at Welford Road. Then, once every 4 years when the World Cup hits this advantage becomes a disadvantage as they lose more players for a longer period.***

Well, quite frnakly for me, that is tough. You can't have all of the cake, all of the time, and the continued moaning about how unfair it all is does make me chuckle. ****

Leicester will make the play offs, of that I have no doubt, but if they don't, it will be because over the course of a 22 game season, they were not good enough, not because there was anything unfair or underhand about the way the season is structured.*****

OK Pete: one at a time:

* Yes. There is no reason to play AP games during the IWs. Or alternatively there is a need if the playoffs are continued. The playoffs were originated as a cri de coeur from clubs to stabilise the prem in the early days of professionalism when John Hall was inflating wages at Newcastle and the likes of LI were munching up the likes of Richmond and LS.

** No. I would prefer the wage cap to be reduced with full respect given to those that contribute to the English cause - development, EPS contibution and possibly English central contracts.

*** This is a matter of playing Jeff matches during the RWC - another thing that PRL votes enforced. And may explain why Saints and Tigers occupy 11th and 10th places in the league.

**** That is a bit like suggesting that the top clubs in order to remain successful, should reduce their academies an buy in foreign players off the shelf. Like the English footy Premiership.

***** Is the nub of it all (see above). The play-offs are a money-spinner (or so it's said) - but only for the top four. Well that's not fair - It should be open to every team in the league. Round 1 - bottom eight play a KO to play Round 2 against the top four in a KO and so on. That'd be interesting. It could be fair and interesting in your Marxist/Leninst world. One day the Champions could also be relegated...

Answer me this question Portnoy, with a simple yes or no, rather than a load of waffle about Marxism etc.

Had Leicester Tigers won 4 of their opening 5 matches as opposed to having lost them, would you still be bumping your gums about the unfairness of the World Cup being held at the same time as the Aviva Premiership?

Yes. But in a different way. Whilst Jeff games go on during International Windows it would both distort the completion and reinforce the need for the ridiculous playoff system.

All I'm proposing is a competition where no club is strung on the scaffold without having had an equal chance. Team against team on the basis of available, fit players selected. Like football.

The time has gone when the Jeff needed to survive on the basis of an artificial playoff system.

And I would be the first to hold my hand up say that on equal terms the Tigers got relegated then I'd accept it.

And if the Tigers/Saints got relegated this year it might be the very trigger to focus the minds of the PRL who seemingly only ever see the height of the diminuative.

Or in another simpler way Ozzie,

Yes.

beshocked wrote:If you win the championship you should get be allowed in the AP regardless of how big your ground is.

Our ground is a dump, much worse than Exeter's. I definitely can't begrudge any club the right to be in the AP based on ground quality and size.

I never really thought about it but which young Leicester players have other clubs signed?

Portnoy has decided to speak like Yoda today.

Without the ground qualifications its far too easy for sides to look for short term investemnt signing players to get them promoted, without creating a susatinable club that enhances the Jeff. It encourages yo yo short termism boom and bust at the expense of well run clubs like Exter who have built over a long period a firm foundation which they continue to invest in.
If anything Id like to see more conditions placed on Premiership places, a reduced league under franchising ( what the RFU wants) would demand this.

An interesting take on the problem from Saints' perspective: Saints' struggles
Some interesting points:
* Malinder deosn't entirely blame RWC player absences - the same group of players he has now performed well in pre-season, but their confidence is low after a couple of losses.
* Player welfare issues stopped condensing of AP games during season.
* Funding for both English and NEQ players at the RWC

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:An interesting take on the problem from Saints' perspective: [url=Northampton Saints have made one of their worst starts to a season in over a decade, and many are pointing to a World Cup that has shorn director Jim Mallinder of eight players.]Saints struggle[/url]

Some interesting points:
* Malinder deosn't entirely blame RWC player absences - the same group of players he has now performed well in pre-season, but their confidence is low after a couple of losses.
* Player welfare issues stopped condensing of AP games during season.
* Funding for both English and NEQ players at the RWC

As,

The url doesn't seem to work as a link (if that was what was meant).

Can you re-post it please?

I have not seen nor heard of any official Tigers comments expressing the same amount of grumpiness as me either.

Northampton Saints can't really blame the world cup because they miss as many players as us. Their strength in depth is appalling. The likes of Ashton,Foden, Hartley are so much better than their 2nd choice that they fall into disarray when they are away.

Do the likes of Tonks,Diggin,Day,Clarke,Nutley,Armstrong strike the fear in opposition? No

Their lock Samu Manoa isn't even good enough for the USA squad!

I think their biggest problem is a lack of leadership. They have Hartley and that's pretty much it.

Portnoy wrote:As,

The url doesn't seem to work as a link (if that was what was meant).

Can you re-post it please?

I have not seen nor heard of any official Tigers comments expressing the same amount of grumpiness as me either.

Portnoy, apologies - can you try again now?

beshocked wrote:Northampton Saints can't really blame the world cup because they miss as many players as us. Their strength in depth is appalling. The likes of Ashton,Foden, Hartley are so much better than their 2nd choice that they fall into disarray when they are away.

Do the likes of Tonks,Diggin,Day,Clarke,Nutley,Armstrong strike the fear in opposition? No

Their lock Samu Manoa isn't even good enough for the USA squad!

I think their biggest problem is a lack of leadership. They have Hartley and that's pretty much it.

I think that's their big problem, beshocked, cos Mallinder admits that he recruited 10 players over the summer to cover this eventuality, so the implication must simply be that they are of such limited quality? Leadership is key, I totally agree, but I would have thought that with Doran-Jones, Mujati, Clark, Dowson, Dickson, Myler, Lamb, Downey and Clarke around, there'd've been at least a few players willing to stand up and be counted?

Their lock Samu Manoa isn't even good enough for the USA squad!

Turned down the chance of a call up because it would facilitate his attempts to land a contract and provide for his family.

Do the likes of Tonks,Diggin,Day,Clarke,Nutley,Armstrong strike the fear in opposition? No

Clarke is a talented young flanker who has a good record at England age level and is normally utilised off of the bench on a regular basis for Saints. Decent lineout jumper as well. Nutley I think has done very well for a 19 year old, no fear and in your face style flanker who could be a real star of the future for Saints. Diggin is normally a first choice option and is a good club man and Day is normally first choice alongside Lawes. The likes of Armstrong and Tonks don't seem much more than average cover though I think Saints problems really are not helped by having quite a one dimensional game plan. I think they would fair better if they brought May into inside centre where he could offer a carrying game but also a secondary play maker that would take some of the pressure of the extremely average Myler and maybe get their backs moving a bit more.