who has the best chance in the WC out of the NH teams?

First topic message reminder :

Ok so if all did go according to plan and Wales play Ireland in one quarter final with England against France in the other there'd be a NH route to the final

so i was just wondering from what we've seen so far who would you're money be on to make the final?

England have always done well at World Cups and they've once again got a chance to make the final and if they face France in the quarters im sure they would really fancy themselves to at least make the semis as they always seem to beat the frogs

I think this Welsh side is very young and talented, full of athletes capable of competeing with the best but with a lot to prove, they would fancy their chances against the Irish although they'd know that they'd have to be on top of their game, Ireland have a lot of old heads in their side and it would be a case of Youth vs Experience

France.. well if they turn up on the day against England and come away with a win they could go all the way, who knows? but their French anything could happen really

i would imagine for the Irish many of their great players over the years such as BOD, POC and ROG now know that this is their last chance to acheive at a World Cup so they will be desperate to go out with a bang where as possible Quarter final opponents Wales have many players just starting out on the international scene

Choke; <noun>, something inferior teams hang their hat on every 4 years. See pedigree.

Pedigree; <adjective>, rugby union description that defines the chances of winning. Requires a long list of complex unrelated historical matches to be considered as valid. In no way relates to NZs efforts. See <choking>

Man. Why didnt someone just say so.

Auckland basically what i am saying is that NZ have been and are the best rugby nation but have underachieved in world cups.

History has a habbit of repeating itself- and that is because history does make a difference if you let it make a difference- and that is due to a weak/strong mindset- invariably because the 'team' or players in the team have drawn(to the good or bad) from previous experiences.

NZ have no good memoroies in recent times of good world cups. England on the other hand have.

But this isnt a discussion about NZ v England- and if it was id back NZ. This has been on the whole a discussion about who is the favourite to progress furthest out of the NH teams. England are the bookies favourite- due to recent world cups, rankings and form. And i am just quantifying that

The NZ angle is purely for measure.

The whole pedigree argument has come about because people are worrying about what the word actually means in this context

nganboy wrote:I'm not sure about all this pedigree stuff.
Seems the argument is a bit like...
NZ have a choking RWC pedigree so should be written off.
France have good RWC pedigree but can't win it so should be written off.
SA, has excellent RWC pedigree but will probably have to get past Aus and NZ so can almost be written off
Aus has excellent RWC pedigree but have just lost to Ireland and have lots of injuries and have to get past SA and NZ to get to the Semi so can be written off
England has excellent RWC pedigree so can't be written off making the Final where they are likely to meet NZ who are chokers so can't win it so England must be odds on to beat a team who must choke.

I think the NH consensus is that NZ is the best team in the world but will not win the RWC again.

so then it has to be Wales or Ireland?

nganboy wrote:I'm not sure about all this pedigree stuff.
Seems the argument is a bit like...
NZ have a choking RWC pedigree so should be written off.
France have good RWC pedigree but can't win it so should be written off.
SA, has excellent RWC pedigree but will probably have to get past Aus and NZ so can almost be written off
Aus has excellent RWC pedigree but have just lost to Ireland and have lots of injuries and have to get past SA and NZ to get to the Semi so can be written off
England has excellent RWC pedigree so can't be written off making the Final where they are likely to meet NZ who are chokers so can't win it so England must be odds on to beat a team who must choke.

I think the NH consensus is that NZ is the best team in the world but will not win the RWC again.

Ngan boy has it spot on (almost) - Its not the NH consensus, its the English and media consensus (not all english fans though) just to clarify that point. A lot of these guys are just trying to prove a cognitive dissonance theory which helps to justify the way you are thinking - The NH draw is simple and it goes something like this - "At the moment any of Wales Ireland England and France are equally capable of beating each other on the day" - Simples, end of - Next thread please

But i like this one, why move on?

This is like getting lost in a circle, you don't know which exit to take.

mystiroakey wrote:Auckland basically what i am saying is that NZ have been and are the best rugby nation but have underachieved in world cups.

History has a habbit of repeating itself

we all actually know this mysti.
What puzzles me is your desire to repeat one hundred thousand times within the same post under different descriptions.

So by your own definition- history has a habit of repeating itself, are you saying that like all englands efforts against nz in world cups that if the two meet again england will be done like a dogs dinner- again? Or is this where your redefining of historical history comes in?
Does it also mean that no home union side will beat nz either? cos thats what my history tells me. Never been one win in wcups. Ever. What sort of good memories are there i wonder?
Or do you have a selective rule for that as well?

Maybe he's Mysti Meg and knows something we don't

Agree rubyguby. Its like hearing the same loose nut on a wheel on a cross country trip.On and on...
Must be hard trying to push a team like England through a meandering myriad of logic where they- surprisingly- come out on top!
Imagine that!

Hi ya biltong. Saw your stats. Cant think what to make of them at the mo. One is that we sure scored a lot of tries in the wrong matches!

Taylorman wrote:Agree rubyguby. Its like hearing the same loose nut on a wheel on a cross country trip.On and on...
Must be hard trying to push a team like England through a meandering myriad of logic where they- surprisingly- come out on top!
Imagine that!

Hi ya biltong. Saw your stats. Cant think what to make of them at the mo. One is that we sure scored a lot of tries in the wrong matches!

Must be what keeps me thinking of:

" you picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel (Lucille)."

Get those nuts checked Taylorman, it could be a wheel bearing so jack it up and have a look - Lets leave the Pedigree chum

Thanks for putting the Lucille in there Bilton as if we would have never got it!!! - you have to have more confidence in your puns - You obviously have no comedy pedigree

RubyGuby wrote:Thanks for putting the Lucille in there Bilton as if we would have never got it!!! - you have to have more confidence in your puns - You obviously have no comedy pedigree

good one rubyguby, i have always beleived a sense of humor is a sign of intelligence, and lately my subtle jokes got me nowhere, so I am not always sure which audience pitches up for my comedy hour.

When it comes to comedy and intellect I consider myself more of a thoroughbred really - I still need to work on the modesty though; must have anglo blood way back in my genes that struggles with the modesty bit

With a "rubyguby' pseudonym could have guessed there was a mork and mindy dying to get out.
Ill book tbe nutts in tomorrow.

Last time the doc said...oops. I mean the mechanic said.... Quit while Im ahead ay...ops. Too late...

It's probably worth adding that Ireland haven't qualified yet. It will be a winner takes all game with Italy and that one is certainly not a forgone conclusion as Italy look pretty strong right now.

Wales aren't through yet either but I can't see Fiji beating them.

C'mon Rodders get with the thread man - Italy has no RWC pedigree, you're through even though Irelands is not the greatest they are looking good and if we do get an Ireland v Wales 1/4 I think all fans from noth nations will be excited and confident at the prospect

RubyGuby wrote:When it comes to comedy and intellect I consider myself more of a thoroughbred really - I still need to work on the modesty though; must have anglo blood way back in my genes that struggles with the modesty bit

Modesty is overrated, I think, or is it, now i'm confused, no maybe not.

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Rodders get with the thread man - Italy has no RWC pedigree, you're through even though Irelands is not the greatest they are looking good and if we do get an Ireland v Wales 1/4 I think all fans from noth nations will be excited and confident at the prospect

what i really look forward to, is when it gets close to the quarter finals, you will see the actions and demeanor of people change on 606v2, everyone will get a little more sensitive than usual, a little more testy, and simply just blow at the slightest criticism of their team abilities.

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Rodders get with the thread man - Italy has no RWC pedigree, you're through even though Irelands is not the greatest they are looking good and if we do get an Ireland v Wales 1/4 I think all fans from noth nations will be excited and confident at the prospect

I can't even think about Wales Ruby. Knock out rugby starts next weekend for us . Italy look very strong indeed and we'll need a massive performance to get through that one.

After that I'll worry about beating...cough..sorry playing Wales .

I think you're right Bilton and then my son we will see who the real men are. We are all passionate which makes this thing great and I have witnessed you have the odd verbal "wobble" on here - We should have a respect thread for the 1/4's irrespective who goes through. The best team doesn't always win but that's sport. As a famous scottish football manager once said - "the game is not about life or death, it's much more important than that"

Yeah, i do get a wobble when people see the Boks as one dimenional only.

Thugs.


points scored through kicks only.


and my alltime favourite, boring.

When it comes to opinions like that and there is no wavering of opinion and only that I do get a wee, just a wee little "wobbly"

Fair enough Bilton, I guess sometimes the truth can hurt

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, i do get a wobble when people see the Boks as one dimenional only.

Thugs.


points scored through kicks only.


and my alltime favourite, boring.

When it comes to opinions like that and there is no wavering of opinion and only that I do get a wee, just a wee little "wobbly"

Yeah lot of people find watching England getting beaten and kicked into oblivion entertaining

RubyGuby wrote:Fair enough Bilton, I guess sometimes the truth can hurt

Or we may just get a NZ v England Final,where England will fail yet again for the 4th time to beat them?

emack2 wrote:Or we may just get a NZ v England Final,where England will fail yet again for the 4th time to beat them?

Im pretty sure NZ are fixing this to ensure they dont have to face wayne barnes in the final

emack2 wrote:Or we may just get a NZ v England Final,where England will fail yet again for the 4th time to beat them?

Yeah that looked the most likely scenario before the competition. However since then SA and Ireland have refound their mojos and wales have continued their upward curve since the 6N.

England and to a lesser extent NZ haven't been entirely convincing and France have just been France. Australia's achilles heel was exposed by Ireland but exposing it isn't that easy or they wouldn't be Tri Nation champions.

At the minute it's all to play for on both sides of the draw.

roddersm wrote:At the minute it's all to play for on both sides of the draw.

Which is brilliant!

I couldnt imagine england beating SA or NZ in a month of sundays, but they may get a relativly easy run to the final....and know how to beat a flakey Australia at their own game.
Im relaly not convinced by France at this world cup, certainly the big sides shouldnt fear them just becasue they got lucky against NZ in a game they were utterly outclassed in 4 years ago. The signs are that the camp isnt at all happy and the players dont really feel comfortable and wont be prdoucingtheir best ...which is good but not great anyway.
Ireland, they only seem to try once every 5 games or so. When they do they are the strongest NH side IMO. Can they produce for a few games in a row? Hmm.
Wales have been doing it so far, but I cant see them stepping up another gear to beat a Tri Nations side unless its their day.
Really though theres not a lot to pick between the big 4 as usual. Scotland get a mention as plucky fighting spirit etc but lets face it they look pretty rubbish so far.

I'll tell you after the England game on Saturday

England may get an easy run to the final! Just like that stroll past Argentina eh! What tournament are you watching mate

First of all it's good to see that when the stakes are really high the so called SH/HN divide is sheer fallacy. Well done Wales (you really should have won) and Ireland for flying the NH flag so far!

As to who has the best chance of the NH teams, it simply has to be England. Although a very young squad, perhaps a year away from being the final article, the potentila is enormous which combined with the know-how of the more experienced players and MJ should lead to success. One year from now, with the talent in this England set-up, they would be world cup favourites or near as damn it.

Both France and Ireland (and Scotland for that matter) will prove to be tough opposition, but if every team play to their potential, England will make the final and IMO, avenge the defeat to the Boks in 2007 and win this time around.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im relaly not convinced by France at this world cup... the signs are that the camp isnt at all happy and the players dont really feel comfortable and wont be prdoucingtheir best ...which is good but not great anyway.

That sounds an awful lot like a description of England in the 2007 tournament and they ended up not doing too badly!

RubyGuby wrote:England may get an easy run to the final! Just like that stroll past Argentina eh! What tournament are you watching mate

I really don't see where all the arrogance is coming from. Apparently, according to some (not all), all England have to do is turn up against France in the quarters and they have it won!!!!

It's the pedigree, you see....

I guess they left their Chum at home for the GS decider even thought the DVD was ready - Pedigree my ass -

"we all actually know this mysti.
What puzzles me is your desire to repeat one hundred thousand times within the same post under different descriptions."

what puzzles me is your constant exageration when faced with fact.

If you dont want to discuss the topic and just want to make yoursself feel better as a fan feel better then post elsewhere

"Must be hard trying to push a team like England through a meandering myriad of logic where they- surprisingly- come out on top!
Imagine that!"

we do come out on top when it matters- we dont need to worry about anything else- the problem is other NH teams trying to make out there are in the same league. The fact is nothing suggests they are.

mystiroakey wrote:we do come out on top when it matters

Well no, you have come out on top when it matters in the past.

England have the best World Cup record of any of the NH sides - there's no denying that - but it guarantees you nothing.

we do come out on top when it matters- we dont need to worry about anything else- the problem is other NH teams trying to make out there are in the same league. The fact is nothing suggests they are..

I think we beat you last time out, 19-9 if I recall with a weakened team and about 2% posession and 3% territory. Adam and Geth are now back in the front row and George is ready to eat your boys. Not in the same league

Why are England fans called arrogant when they back their team and everyone else is call passionate supporters when they do the same?

Given that England will probably avoid all the teams ranked above them before the final then its not unfair to say that its a relativly easy run to the final. Obviously they would rather be facing Nabia and the sausage Islands but if teh do beat scotland and top the group they do likely have as good a draw as they coudl reasoanbly hoped for.
Its not arrogance to say that avoiding tri nations opposition in the pools quarters and semis is a relativly easy run to the final. If England do get there via that route Im sure plenty of people will be there to point out what an easy run they had.....

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Why are England fans called arrogant when they back their team and everyone else is call passionate supporters when they do the same?

That's not what I was getting at (if your question was directed at me). I just think it's strange that some - some - England fans seem to take previous World Cup success as a guarantee of future World Cup success.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:
Both France and Ireland (and Scotland for that matter) will prove to be tough opposition, but if every team play to their potential, England will make the final and IMO, avenge the defeat to the Boks in 2007 and win this time around.

Yeah I don't know about that. I think France and Ireland have better and more proven international players than England. Thats, like, just my opinion though man

England have shown a marginally more consistancy this season than the other 3 sides and have a very strong bench which could prove discisive. Wales are the most improved side from the 6N though and most of the results were pretty close then.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Why are England fans called arrogant when they back their team and everyone else is call passionate supporters when they do the same?

It is the way you say it bath.

England will be in the final.

England could make the final.

It also depends who your team has to beat to get to the final.

If you are talking to a welshman about beating SA for example, you will be deemed passionate.

If you are tlaking to a welshman about beating wales, you are arrogant.


simple really.


My next lesson will be at 6pm. tonight.

roddersm wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:
Both France and Ireland (and Scotland for that matter) will prove to be tough opposition, but if every team play to their potential, England will make the final and IMO, avenge the defeat to the Boks in 2007 and win this time around.

Yeah I don't know about that. I think France and Ireland have better and more proven international players than England. Thats, like, just my opinion though man

England have shown a marginally more consistancy this season than the other 3 sides and have a very strong bench which could prove discisive. Wales are the most improved side from the 6N though and most of the results were pretty close then.

Rodders, what are you saying? England have Guscott, Ben Kay, Martin Johnson, Jeff Probyn and Will Greenwood in their team. Of course they are going to....

Oh wait a sec. All these players are retired.

I can see it after the France game...."but but but, the pedigree..... you dont understand.... its THE PEDIGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Boyne you are bold sir, very bold.

My next lesson will be at 6pm. tonight..
biltongbek


Lets hope you learn something

+1

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Rodders get with the thread man - Italy has no RWC pedigree, you're through even though Irelands is not the greatest they are looking good and if we do get an Ireland v Wales 1/4 I think all fans from noth nations will be excited and confident at the prospect

what i really look forward to, is when it gets close to the quarter finals, you will see the actions and demeanor of people change on 606v2, everyone will get a little more sensitive than usual, a little more testy, and simply just blow at the slightest criticism of their team abilities.

Bill, its not as if we've got to wait for this is it?

Most people on here have been talking in the extremes since the first round of pool games. As hilarious as it all is, in the end it gets about as fun as having to spongebath your gramps!

When Johnsons starts picking Wigglesworth at 10 then Id say France were favourites for that quarter.

the road to the final does seem slightly easier for the likes of the All Blacks and England

the reasons being

NZ had a very winnable group which they (as per usual) have cruised through, then in the quarters they are and have always been since the WC started most likely going to play Argentina/Scotland which is another easy game for them
their only real test would be the semi where they should play either SA or Aus

then England
their group contained Argentina who before the WC had minimal preparation only playing one international test this year so obviously they were undercooked, then Scotland who are a a struggling side that always seem to be battling to avoid the wooden spoon in the 6N, then their Quarter-Final has always been most likely to be against France even before the tournament started, a team which England always seem to beat, plus the French have not had a good year by their standards, so then a test in the semi against Ire/Wales and they could be through to the final