who has the best chance in the WC out of the NH teams?

First topic message reminder :

Ok so if all did go according to plan and Wales play Ireland in one quarter final with England against France in the other there'd be a NH route to the final

so i was just wondering from what we've seen so far who would you're money be on to make the final?

England have always done well at World Cups and they've once again got a chance to make the final and if they face France in the quarters im sure they would really fancy themselves to at least make the semis as they always seem to beat the frogs

I think this Welsh side is very young and talented, full of athletes capable of competeing with the best but with a lot to prove, they would fancy their chances against the Irish although they'd know that they'd have to be on top of their game, Ireland have a lot of old heads in their side and it would be a case of Youth vs Experience

France.. well if they turn up on the day against England and come away with a win they could go all the way, who knows? but their French anything could happen really

i would imagine for the Irish many of their great players over the years such as BOD, POC and ROG now know that this is their last chance to acheive at a World Cup so they will be desperate to go out with a bang where as possible Quarter final opponents Wales have many players just starting out on the international scene

Yeah comfort, i have been trying to explain to my wife a few things about rugby and as yet have not succeeded.

wife " Why is rugby so important to you"

Me " because it is modern civilisation's way to make war without killing anyone, it is our tribal carnal instincts that is wakened by seeing 30 muscle bound warriors wage the ultimate battle against each other"


wife " why do you have to watch the game live, can't you tape it?"

Me " no, if I watch a recorded game it has happened already"


Wife " why don't you want to watch Idols with me?

Me " because rugby is the ultimate reality show"

Wife " Why do you get so upset when we lose"

Me " because there is nothing else that holds the universe together"



etc, etc, etc.

Here's an interesting conundrum for Peter the suggestive digestive above -

Martin Johnson has gone on record recently stating that if his team continue to play like this then they might as well bag their bags now - Harsh but honest appraisal and respect all round. Compare that with the suggestive digestive stating England have an easy route to the final and perhaps people can understand why there's a little frustration here. Thankfully the vast majority of England supporters have both passion and a sense of perspective just like Jonno.

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, i have been trying to explain to my wife a few things about rugby and as yet have not succeeded.

wife " Why is rugby so important to you"

Me " because it is modern civilisation's way to make war without killing anyone, it is our tribal carnal instincts that is wakened by seeing 30 muscle bound warriors wage the ultimate battle against each other"


wife " why do you have to watch the game live, can't you tape it?"

Me " no, if I watch a recorded game it has happened already"


Wife " why don't you want to watch Idols with me?

Me " because rugby is the ultimate reality show"



etc, etc, etc.

"Its not, I just dont like you anymore...now wheres that beer"

I always wondered how TGG sustained a relationship with a human woman

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, i have been trying to explain to my wife a few things about rugby and as yet have not succeeded.

wife " Why is rugby so important to you"

Me " because it is modern civilisation's way to make war without killing anyone, it is our tribal carnal instincts that is wakened by seeing 30 muscle bound warriors wage the ultimate battle against each other"


wife " why do you have to watch the game live, can't you tape it?"

Me " no, if I watch a recorded game it has happened already"


Wife " why don't you want to watch Idols with me?

Me " because rugby is the ultimate reality show"



etc, etc, etc.

"Its not, I just dont like you anymore...now wheres that beer"

I always wondered how TGG sustained a relationship with a human woman

human woman? didnt he take your dog Bill?!

at least they'll listen to his Barnes-bonanza-brainwashing

bless him.


But yeah, some of the comments I've read on here over the course of the pool games have literally been hilarious and I've considered trying to get a few certain posters sectioned under the mental health act as a danger to themselves and others for being complete and utterly devoid of common sense.

Thanks Peter, now i will ponder that conundrum for the rest of the day.


















Nah, forgot about it already........

Let me know who needs sectioning and I'll get it sorted

RubyGuby wrote:Here's an interesting conundrum for Peter the suggestive digestive above -

Martin Johnson has gone on record recently stating that if his team continue to play like this then they might as well bag their bags now - Harsh but honest appraisal and respect all round. Compare that with the suggestive digestive stating England have an easy route to the final and perhaps people can understand why there's a little frustration here. Thankfully the vast majority of England supporters have both passion and a sense of perspective just like Jonno.

Reatively easy is the key though.
It doenst matter how bad England are playing they could have had a much tougher route to the final. France, Ireland and Wales are not the strongest 3 teams left in the competition (assuming as this artcle doeas that remaining pool games go to the form book), they are 3 of the weaker 5 ( im including England in that list).
You dont even have to beleive tehy are favourites for any of those games to see that its about as easy a route as they could have hoped for once the pool stage is clear ( and we can debate whether having two fairly good sides vs one very good and one weak is easy or hard elsewhere)

England are playing well enough at the moment to beat any of the NH sides 9on their day), as are Wales and Ireland. France, hmm....im really not convinced that the players are happy with the coaches selections and their style of play not with this theory that thair players are super human and escpaed form the same lab that George North did. As Ive stated several times, theres not a lot to pick between the 4 sides.
As is the case with the 6 nations games over the last x years making confident predictions of who will win one off games betwee these sides is foolish.
When it comes to facing SANZARS, despite the wins over Aus and Frances "pedigree" in beating NZ and Wales' "on their day" mantra I would be a lot more confident in saying theyd all most likely lose.
I think youre overegging Johnsons criticism of his team, but hes right to say they might as well pack their bags if they think they are going to win the torunemanet...but we pretty much couldve said that before its started. They are palying well enough and good enough to get to the final though if as expected the draw allows them to avoid Sanzars.

Comfort wrote:human woman? didnt he take your dog Bill?!

at least they'll listen to his Barnes-bonanza-brainwashing

bless him.


But yeah, some of the comments I've read on here over the course of the pool games have literally been hilarious and I've considered trying to get a few certain posters sectioned under the mental health act as a danger to themselves and others for being complete and utterly devoid of common sense.

He put the SPCA on me.

It seems then I was lucky enough thus far to escape the mental institutions.

I'll leave you all with a riddle though....

if wales can "beat anyone on their day" and ireland can "always raise their game".....


WHATS THE FACKING DIFFERENCE?!

simple really.


Raising your games doesn't mean the same as beating anyone on their day.

Wales vs SA : Wales raised their game and didnt beat anyone because it wasnt their day.

Ireland dont raise their game, they are just a good side

but surely the point of the phrase is to imply that both teams on their day can raise their game to get the win?

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland dont raise their game, they are just a good side

Try telling that to an England fan
Bobbins for a whole year then go and play like its their day just to ruin our t shirts.

you can raise your leg running the hurdles, but not necessarily succeed in getting over it.

so we're saying the real difference is that the welsh are good at getting their leg over?

As an England fan you should know that theyve beaten you something like 7/8 before that game - That is not raising your game, its being consistently a better side. If anything England raised their game in the RWC warm up when they played a Bodless Ireland. Teams don'r RAISE their game against England, sometimes they are just better - its a hard fact to face but there you have it

RubyGuby wrote:As an England fan you should know that theyve beaten you something like 7/8 before that game - That is not raising your game, its being consistently a better side. If anything England raised their game in the RWC warm up when they played a Bodless Ireland. Teams don'r RAISE their game against England, sometimes they are just better - its a hard fact to face but there you have it

Now why do you have to get serious about this, weren't you the one that earlier advocated we move on?

Get a grip man, this is now the fun thread.

If Wales can beat anyone on their day...

Um, can they? Not so sure about that.

Ireland can raise their game, but can they raise it for a few games? They´ve won a Grand Slam but not a Grand Slam in the SH.

So an exciting match up there in the quarters. Both teams look in good touch. England vs France has recently not lived up to pre-match hype. Let´s hope both teams play well.

Sometimes Bilton I am required to bring a sense of balance and perspective to some posts. The Moderators actually demand it of me and occasionally prompt me for a response. I feel it as a sort of duty to oblige them

RubyGuby wrote:Sometimes Bilton I am required to bring a sense of balance and perspective to some posts. The Moderators actually demand it of me and occasionally prompt me for a response. I feel it as a sort of duty to oblige them

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, aiming to become a moderator I see.



All good, ambition is good.

RubyGuby wrote:As an England fan you should know that theyve beaten you something like 7/8 before that game - That is not raising your game, its being consistently a better side. If anything England raised their game in the RWC warm up when they played a Bodless Ireland. Teams don'r RAISE their game against England, sometimes they are just better - its a hard fact to face but there you have it

Yet versus most other oppeonets ( who England beat) they lose. So then they are a wrose team.
So either they are raising their game against england or england or dropping theirs against Irleand. Can you honestly say that their performances against Autstralia in the WC and England in the 6 nations were no better than their other performances over the last 18 months?
I dont neccasairly subscirbe to the " because its england they raise their game" but england have certainly been on the worng end of above avergae irish perfomances over the last few yeas ( expcet the other week when Ireland dropped their game and England won comfortably)
Ireland are certainly not 87.5% better than England anymore than England are 100% better than Australia having beaten them 2 from 2. They are below England in the IRB rankings because they have only won half their games over the last 2 years. So yes versus England they have played well ( or England played badly depending on your point of view) but versus other teams they havent done so well. If they are a genuinly a much better side they must be more often than not dropping their game.
Tell you what lets have a debate about potentialy good versus actualy good then this can get really daft.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland dont raise their game, they are just a good side

Try telling that to an England fan
Bobbins for a whole year then go and play like its their day just to ruin our t shirts.

I love this bobbins for a whole year stuff. From my memory England have only produced a couple of top performances in the past year also. Australia * 2 stands out but most of the other performances have been well below that level. A couple of wins against France and Wales and a trouncing of Italy apart there have been a lot of average and mediocre performances in there.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned how inconsistant they have been and their failure to produce top performances on a consistant basis.

Ireland seem to always be singled out for not being able to produce on a consistant basis but no one bats an eyelid when Australia, France, England and SA are up and down in their perfromance levels like a yo-yo.

Most teams are inconsistant in WC year as they are experimenting different combinations and focusing on peaking for the RWC.

ruby its the nature of sport that teams/individulas do raise there games and or lower there games against certain teams.

you are just going to have to face the facts pal- data is very evidnet and doesnt lie.

look at the recent ireland/england form

look at the recent france/england form

look at the recent ireland/france form

before you come back check the data

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Yet versus most other oppeonets ( who England beat) they lose. So then they are a wrose team.

Which teams? Apart from France I think you'll find there are not much differences between England and Irelands record against the other top 10 sides in recent years. In fact against some sides our record is superior.

"so we're saying the real difference is that the welsh are good at getting their leg over?"

Thought that was Tindall's speciality (unlike passing).

rodderson the problem with your post is the

Apart from france

and

against some


use all the data or none at all pal- otherwise we might as well be in a fantasy world

mystiroakey wrote:rodderson the problem with your post is the

Apart from france

and

against some


use all the data or none at all pal- otherwise we might as well be in a fantasy world

Thats the problem apart from France there are no examples were England have a significantly better record than Ireland against another top 10 side in recent years.

We have a better record against Scotland and SA, a similar one vs Wales and only a slightly inferior one against Australia in the past 5 seasons in competitive internationals. Neither side has beaten the All blacks or lost to Italy.

Head to head our record is much better, so this theory that Ireland always lose to teams England beat is nonsence. Apart from against France this is simply not true.

wwhat you are doing is trying to out do the ranking system - which i am sure you will agree is almost spot on.

england are currently higher than ireland(not by that much mind)

and that takes into account recent form against all nations.

we are similar strength teams in reality and i have no problem admiting that- i think england have the edge when it really matters- but lets wait and see, i wont be making any excuses if ireland get furtar than us this WC- but both teams have teams in which we raise our games against- or from another pov teams that we lower our game- that is my argument

Rodders - I think the main problem here is that we are actually taking the bait. You can lead a blind man to water but he'd still be english - Tarra

England proved they are the best NH side by winning the 6 nations, that's kind of the whole point of the tournament. If Ireland were the better side, they would've won the 6 nations.

It isn't about how well you play in one game, but how you play generally over time. Ireland were better than England on the day, which is why they won that game. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they "raised their game" but it was certainly a better Irish performance than against Italy, Wales and France and a worse English performance than against Wales, Italy and France.

We can draw comparisons in this competition. If Ireland go and lose to Italy and don't qualify, no one will really remember the Australia game. Likewise, if England lose to Scotland then they will deem the tournament a failure, despite 17 tries in 3 games.

EnglishReign I didn't say Ireland were better. The rankings and 6N table don't lie but they don't indicate that England have been significantly more consistant than Ireland, only marginally so and that does not support what some here are suggesting.

"You can lead a blind man to water but he'd still be english"

unless he was irish i suppose

I didn't say that you said they were better.

do teams raise there game against certain opponents or are they just inconsistant.

fact is its abit of both. A typical scot,welsh or irishman is lieing if they tell you that they dont feel more of a buzz beating the english against another of the home nations. All the european nations are inconsistant at present

Mystiroakey, that's not always true. I know of an Irish poster here who doesn't see Ireland v England as the big one because, in the time he's been watching rugby, Ireland have beaten them so often.

roddersm wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland dont raise their game, they are just a good side

Try telling that to an England fan
Bobbins for a whole year then go and play like its their day just to ruin our t shirts.

I love this bobbins for a whole year stuff. From my memory England have only produced a couple of top performances in the past year also. Australia * 2 stands out but most of the other performances have been well below that level. A couple of wins against France and Wales and a trouncing of Italy apart there have been a lot of average and mediocre performances in there.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned how inconsistant they have been and their failure to produce top performances on a consistant basis.

Ireland seem to always be singled out for not being able to produce on a consistant basis but no one bats an eyelid when Australia, France, England and SA are up and down in their perfromance levels like a yo-yo.

Most teams are inconsistant in WC year as they are experimenting different combinations and focusing on peaking for the RWC.

Well clealry englnd can raise their game and on their day beat anyone.

Youve actually argued my point for me, all the "big 4" are much of a muchness and to claim that one is clealry superior just because they had a couple of good perfomarnces against whilst ignoring the majority of their results and performances is bunk. You are as good as your performances, and on average the teams perform about the same...some days better than others. England have been unlucky that they have pulled some of Irelands better performaces over recent years.
England do have a marginaly better record than Irleand over recent games, hence their higher ranking. By the only objective measuring system we have England are marginaly better ( or have been recently at least). I wouldnt use that to bet my hosue that theyd win the head to head though.

roddersm wrote:EnglishReign I didn't say Ireland were better. The rankings and 6N table don't lie but they don't indicate that England have been significantly more consistant than Ireland, only marginally so and that does not support what some here are suggesting.

OK so now we are all haveing a furious debate that we agree with each other

Assuming an NH team does make the final, can we try and get a fan to repeat this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVC4pGmumMk&feature=related. Cos lets face it, it looks ominous should one of our teams have to play NZ. This would be funny though.

Now that's what I call pedigree

mystiroakey wrote: do teams raise there game against certain opponents or are they just inconsistant.

fact is its abit of both. A typical scot,welsh or irishman is lieing if they tell you that they dont feel more of a buzz beating the english against another of the home nations. All the european nations are inconsistant at present

I think it's more the latter than the former. Every celt loves to beat England but I am more interested in winning trophys than one off games. I'd swap the 6N win over Engalnd for a win over Italy next week for sure. Beating any of the top nations is a big thing,especially the Tri nations, so I wouldn't say beating England is more important although there is a good rivalry there of course.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

roddersm wrote:EnglishReign I didn't say Ireland were better. The rankings and 6N table don't lie but they don't indicate that England have been significantly more consistant than Ireland, only marginally so and that does not support what some here are suggesting.

OK so now we are all haveing a furious debate that we agree with each other

England have a big pack. They can bully opponents up front and it makes them very difficult to break down and beat. That's why they are a challenge for any team. For the last 8 years Ireland have consistently beaten them with the same strategy.

Use our superior lineout to get good front foot possession.
Use our superior backrow to win the collisions at the breakdown

That's how we got around being dominated by their forward power. We also had a better midfield which could create more try scoring opportunities than theirs. We mightn't any more. BOD looks injured. D'arcy and Sexton aren't in top form and Tuilagi looks really good.

I also wouldn't count the warm up match as meaning much. England turned up for a test match. Ireland turned up for a warm up. The usual aggression they show against England was nowhere to be seen.

Hmm I woudl say the opposite iis true now. Ireland are the agressive side witha a strong pack and England are at their best when they are allowed to play rugby and get the back 3 and Tuilagi running in space.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I also wouldn't count the warm up match as meaning much. England turned up for a test match. Ireland turned up for a warm up. The usual aggression they show against England was nowhere to be seen.

You can't totally discount it Feckless. It will mean more to England than us. The psychological edge we gained from that 6N win has been destroyed by the margin of that England win.

Looking back it was a game we shouldn't have played and that result could be very significant if we do meet England.

are the irish trying to say that the last loss against england doesnt matter?

if it makes you feel more confident i suppose crack on!

Yeah psychology could play a part. I think Australia didn't show enough respect to Ireland. They underestimated us. They realized soon after kick off that they were in a real battle and they couldn't stop our momentum.

I think England now really has a lot of respect for Irish rugby due to Heineken Cup and 6 Nations results. They will definitely not have any complacency and will be ready for a brutal contest from the off. Add in the fact that they know they can beat us and that makes them very dangerous. Like I said earlier our midfield advantage might be gone. And if best has a bad day with his darts we'd be in trouble.

I'm getting way ahead of myself here though. We'd have to beat Italy and Wales and England would have to beat Scotland and France before we'd meet each other.

Mate if youre worried about Italy you should be terrified by Wales!

Certainly dont think any of the 4 can be confident of a final, England have the hardest job of actualy getting a quarter so I guess they should be the least favourite right now.